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Event - Apex 2015 Apex Pools are looking like a huge joke right now.

TaFoKiNtS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,027
Hmm, at least this year I have the solace in knowing that it will definitely take two losses instead of one for me to be knocked out of the tournament. (/ Apex 2012 smh...)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Pools will be available sometime later today, I believe.

I'm not opposed to the idea of funneling top players past pools, though arbitrarily saying "Oh this guy is good enough, he doesn't have to qualify via pools" bothers me inherently. Perhaps thats something that Apex seeding points could be used for in the future- it's an idea I'm willing to discuss with the rest of the staff. Not happening this year, though.

And I agree on the point that a tournament experience is supposed to be enjoyable- why else would any of us go to tournaments? But there are many ways to enjoy a tournament, even if you go 0-2 in bracket pools. (Friendlies, MMs, watching hype matches)
I've personally always thought the hype of "Oh I made it to round 3 of pools" is something desirable. But, unfortunately- with a tournament of this size that's not possible. Were it melee alone, I could see multiple waves of round robin being feasible; but Apex has multiple events, with some players entering more than 1 event. So... I don't think Apex will use the round robin format again anytime soon.

But keep the feedback and constructive criticism coming in! I personally am always looking to improve as a TO, and I believe many of the other staff at Apex would like to improve the tournament experience for attendees as well.
I sympathize with your concern of seeding players out, but at the same time you have to realize that they are essentially being seeded out already by virtue of having a super easy pool. The only thing top players have to fight for in their pool is 1st seed vs. 2nd, but that is just as easily settled in bracket as it is in pools. You may have people complaining about having to play through pools while others get to start in bracket, but I think those people will be in the minority because:
1. Anyone with a debatable status of ranked or unranked isn't going to make it in the money anyways
2. If they are good enough to earn a spot in pro bracket, proving it in pools shouldn't be that hard
3. In addition to starting ranked players in a pro bracket, the TO can still seed pools with players that are known enough to be on the cusp of the pro bracket but not necessarily making the cut. That way if you feel you should have been in the pro bracket but aren't, you'll at least know that your pool won't have other almost-ranked players in it.

Hmm, at least this year I have the solace in knowing that it will definitely take two losses instead of one for me to be knocked out of the tournament. (/ Apex 2012 smh...)
Care to explain how that went down? lol

That actually happened to me at a tournament before. The Crimson Buster tried some crazy new Swiss format. All of my matches after that were effectively in an amateur bracket (which I won lol). I respected the experimentation though. Clearly it's payed off now that he's the #1 TO in the world. #TeamOXY
 

tekkie

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
3,136
Location
Shpongle Falls
if apex had, say, 50 entrants in each game, consisting of the top 50 people worldwide who all thought realistically they could place in the money, and everyone else was suddenly disillusioned and didn't feel like entering ($15 is plenty of money matches), would that be an ideal national tournament?
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
if apex had, say, 50 entrants in each game, consisting of the top 50 people worldwide who all thought realistically they could place in the money, and everyone else was suddenly disillusioned and didn't feel like entering ($15 is plenty of money matches), would that be an ideal national tournament?
I think it's actually $30 because there is an extra venue cost along with the entry. Also, since you are likely to win some of your money matches, you might be able to get way more MMs than if you just lose 30 $1 MMs in a row.
 

Kezzup

Smash Rookie
Joined
Jan 14, 2014
Messages
16
if apex had, say, 50 entrants in each game, consisting of the top 50 people worldwide who all thought realistically they could place in the money, and everyone else was suddenly disillusioned and didn't feel like entering ($15 is plenty of money matches), would that be an ideal national tournament?
The mentality behind this post would basically undermine the idea of tournaments altogether, whether large or small. It also seems to assume that worse players would magically do better under another system.
 

tekkie

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 28, 2008
Messages
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Location
Shpongle Falls
The mentality behind this post would basically undermine the idea of tournaments altogether, whether large or small. It also seems to assume that worse players would magically do better under another system.
it isn't about "doing better"; it's about people having an incentive to enter in the first place.

the rationale behind the way this tournament will be run is fine, but TOs should also be doing their best to make sure tournaments are worth entering if you aren't likely to win. if 90+% of entrants are only there to hang out and play a lot, and TOs were to strive to make tournaments as harsh as possible to ensure the best people win as quickly as quickly as possible with all other considerations ignored, then it's perfectly logical that the tournament entrance numbers might suffer.

for example, if the tournament had rounds of five-person pools, top 1 in each pool advances to a final 8 player double elim bracket, and entry fee was $100, i'm pretty sure apex would have a fraction of its entrants. so, like i asked, would that be an ideal for nationals that people are okay with?
 

TaFoKiNtS

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 21, 2005
Messages
1,027
Care to explain how that went down? lol
It was a 6 man pool with top 2 making it out. I beat Cyrain. Cyrain beat Mr. F. Mr. F beat me. I had 1 more game loss overall and didn't make it out due to tiebreakers, going 4-1 in sets.
 

Player-1

Smash Legend
Joined
Apr 27, 2008
Messages
12,179
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Rainbow Cruise
That only happens in top 2 make it out of RR pools, not top 3 or 4 or anything lower though. Weird things happen for RR pools top 2 make it out, I was in a situation where the only way I could make it out of pools was if I 2-1ed my opponent, 2-0ing them would get me eliminated.
 

Anomic_Punk

Smash Champion
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Messages
2,331
Location
Lawrenceville , GA
Please be patient in regards to the "pools" being released. We're just waiting for brawl to submit their final cut, then all pools will be publicly released.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
brawl lags more than melee when selecting a character on the main screen.....................................

they had to fix it for pm looool
The lost frames are compensated by the fact that players don't have to spend any time thinking about what character to play. They just go right to Metaknight.
 

Divinokage

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 6, 2006
Messages
16,250
Location
Montreal, Quebec
If all you lower level scrubs want to get some tournament matches, just come and find me at Apex, I'll gladly play you. =) You can add 1$ or 2 for extra seriousness, problem solved!
 

TKD

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 25, 2007
Messages
1,589
Location
Tijuana, México
Yes, seeding could get really wrong, really fast; but if you expect the TOs to know most of 600+ players' skill levels, you're being completely unreasonable. And probably disrespectful to some players, for example the japanese or people from other countries, or even lesser-known areas who most of us have no idea how good they are.

Apex is a just a huge tournament. If a lot of people want most player's placings to be highly indicative of their skill level, again, they're being unreasonable. To do that, you either need to make an enormous series of pools, or hold a whole series of tournaments featuring all these people.

Apex is going to be a tournament. Not a power ranking.
 

DarkLouis331

Smash Lord
Joined
Mar 12, 2008
Messages
1,502
Essentially, I see it as 1 huge bracket, but better organized and divided into separate subbrackets. It'd be hectic as hell to scroll down through 630 players in 1 bracket.
 

AllyKnight

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"I will say that I will attempt to post them in about a hour or 2. Project M is just double checking a final time, and once that is cleared I will post them.

You now have a time frame." - RJ

**** you PM
 

da K.I.D.

Smash Hero
Joined
Aug 22, 2006
Messages
19,658
Location
Rochester, NY
Sounds like theres some baby **** mofos up in this thread.

Let me tell you a little story.
A friend of mine went to a tournament called Defend The North last weekend in NYC for Marvel. He drove from buffalo ny. A good 6+ hours and at least 100 bucks spent. He had to play Chris G (best player in the world) first round of winners. Obviously he did not win. Then, in first round losers he had to fight a zero/dante/vergil player (best team in the game). He drove 6 hours and spent over a hundred bucks to get immediately knocked out of the tournament.

When i asked him if he was upset about this, he says "its whatever man, it happens, i just need to get better. I got to play a lot of cool people and i learned a lot"

I heard laijin say earlier in this thread that he thinks smash players should be above stuff that the FGC typically does. But from my perspective, the smashers are looking like the naive, immature ones that are taking the low brow road here. Probably because weve been coddling people for way too long.

When I talk to a friend of mine that got double eliminated from street fighter by the same guy, he doesnt get upset either. The FGC goes to a tournament acknowledging and accepting the terms for the tournament they are entering and take it as just a occupational hazard. Its really not a big deal and it happens all the time. Get over it.

Not to mention I know TONS of people who show up to majors and dont enter a single event. They know theyll go two and out so they save their money and just show up to play games and hang out with people. And theres NOTHING wrong with that. Just get your spectator pass and do you. Its w/e. Just know this kind of weak hearted whining DOESNT make you look better.
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
Not to mention I know TONS of people who show up to majors and dont enter a single event. They know theyll go two and out so they save their money and just show up to play games and hang out with people. And theres NOTHING wrong with that. Just get your spectator pass and do you. Its w/e. Just know this kind of weak hearted whining DOESNT make you look better.
That's great if your friends don't mind wasting their money, but some people do. Idk why you would willingly compel people to NOT enter a tournament when we could easily change the format or schedule around to give those players are higher quality tournament experience. Apex is lucky there aren't more massive tournaments competing on the EC because I can guarantee if one crops up and people have to choose between Apex and another tournament of the same size, Apex's reputation will deter a lot of players. Even if there isn't another tournament competing with it, idk why Apex would insist on alienating players who WANT to enter but don't want to feel like they wasted their money.


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0rI_h-FooBPdktDSEhqMEVCUzQ/edit
^Revised schedule for those who didn't see it.

Pretty funny how there are all these claims that there isn't enough time to run RR, yet there isn't any Melee scheduled on Sunday until 5:30 PM... Hmmmmmmm....
 
Last edited:

Laijin

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Rylai the Crystal Maiden's Igloo
All these people saying bracket pools are the only way...
No one has yet to show an example of a smash national tournament that DID NOT use bracket pools and failed. Because from my memory, every alternate style of running a tournament whether its Swiss style or RR pools have always been successful in running on time.
 

smashmachine

Smash Lord
Joined
May 25, 2009
Messages
1,285
That's great if your friends don't mind wasting their money, but some people do. Idk why you would willingly compel people to NOT enter a tournament when we could easily change the format or schedule around to give those players are higher quality tournament experience. Apex is lucky there aren't more massive tournaments competing on the EC because I can guarantee if one crops up and people have to choose between Apex and another tournament of the same size, Apex's reputation will deter a lot of players. Even if there isn't another tournament competing with it, idk why Apex would insist on alienating players who WANT to enter but don't want to feel like they wasted their money.


https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B0rI_h-FooBPdktDSEhqMEVCUzQ/edit
^Revised schedule for those who didn't see it.

Pretty funny how there are all these claims that there isn't enough time to run RR, yet there isn't any Melee scheduled on Sunday until 5:30 PM... Hmmmmmmm....
ahahaha
what reputation
you think bracket pools actually alienates any significant amount of players?
hell I'd almost bet that wobbling being legal is a larger deterrent than that (aka nobody cares)
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
11,153
Location
Jarrettsville, MD
ahahaha
what reputation
you think bracket pools actually alienates any significant amount of players?
hell I'd almost bet that wobbling being legal is a larger deterrent than that (aka nobody cares)
The whole Melee being cancelled for all of day 2 in 2012 debacle, and then last year they switched a bunch of pools at midnight so a lot of people got DQed because their time got changed by several hours, and then some pools actually got replayed AFTER disqualifying people.
 

VSC.D-Torr

Smash Hero
Joined
Mar 9, 2008
Messages
7,001
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Kissimmee, FL (Poinciana)
I like bracket pools because it's manly as ****. Play your best at all times and if not, then understand where you messed up, learn from it and get better for the next tourney/major. I've always despised round robin because IMO it becomes irrelevant around 50% the way through. The players that know they're not gonna advance play in matches where they have no incentive to play anything but spoiler and if they don't play then they're manipulating the RR. Also I think allowing players to just run through their set of matches is dumb. Both players should be switched out after sets to keep everyone in game form. Sorry Laijin if I can't provide a tourney that failed with RR pools but that's irrelevant to me because I personally feel bracket is much more competitive.

Oh look, an argument about RR and I didn't even mention time until 6 characters ago.
 

Player -0

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 7, 2013
Messages
5,125
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Helsong's Carpeted Floor
I like bracket pools because it's manly as ****. Play your best at all times and if not, then understand where you messed up, learn from it and get better for the next tourney/major. I've always despised round robin because IMO it becomes irrelevant around 50% the way through. The players that know they're not gonna advance play in matches where they have no incentive to play anything but spoiler and if they don't play then they're manipulating the RR. Also I think allowing players to just run through their set of matches is dumb. Both players should be switched out after sets to keep everyone in game form. Sorry Laijin if I can't provide a tourney that failed with RR pools but that's irrelevant to me because I personally feel bracket is much more competitive.

Oh look, an argument about RR and I didn't even mention time until 6 characters ago.
*Played against M2K*
*Proceeds to get wrecked*
"Now where did I go wrong...?"

I should probably leave because I'm not contributing anymore...
 

VSC.D-Torr

Smash Hero
Joined
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Messages
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Kissimmee, FL (Poinciana)
I don't put top players on pedestals so I don't have a problem of not understanding what I went wrong. However, just for the sake of it, I'd have to be really really bad to get wrecked by anyone and not understand what went on. To that point it's up to me to improve my game so the lack of understanding never happens again.
 

Strong Badam

Super Elite
Administrator
Premium
BRoomer
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Messages
26,317
All these people saying bracket pools are the only way...
No one has yet to show an example of a smash national tournament that DID NOT use bracket pools and failed. Because from my memory, every alternate style of running a tournament whether its Swiss style or RR pools have always been successful in running on time.
someone didn't attend apex 2012 lmao
 
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