Apex 2014 - January 17-19, 2014 - Somerset, NJ

[Karajan]

As has been said before making it into bracket is a privileged not a right.


A Tier: (12/13)
Kerokeroppi

+ maybe a couple I missed
S + A tier total: ~15-20

Yeah lets count the people you missed; since you think kero should be there you have to add Battlecow (beat kero at sweet12) and Stranded (beat kero at red bank). Now include everyone at that level.
You also missed bane, LD, matts!, etc.

 

[clubbadubba]

GO PRACTICE!!

motivational quote of the day:

"It's not the will to win that matters—everyone has that. It's the will to prepare to win that matters."

-Paul 'Bear' Bryant

 

[Karajan]

Actually one of the other things that concerns me is the biases of the person making the pools. Because Nintendude will also most likely be playing.

Hey nintendude, I'll volunteer to make the pools and brackets and in return I won't play in the tournament.

 

[clubbadubba]

^^Oh god no...

 

[Nintendude]

There shouldn't be any concerns about seeding seeing as we had top-notch seeding at Apex 2012 and Apex 2013. Didn't hear any complaints about Zenith seeding either.

 

[Karajan]

Another thing,

I think we should have one big YOLO tournament after the main tournament is over.

Rules:
Single Elimination
1 Stock
Random Character, locked through the whole tournament.
Random stage.

YOLO because you only live once, get it? We did like 5 of these at the last smash fest I had and they were way more fun and hype than any tournament I have been to. And they go by pretty quick. A tournament of 10 people took like 10-15 minutes, and that was just on one tv. Since every match eliminates a person, and each takes about 1 minute, if we had 4 tv's we could eliminate 4 people every 2 minutes, so a 64 person bracket would take like 30 minutes.

 

[Yobolight]

Yeah lets count the people you missed; since you think kero should be there you have to add Battlecow (beat kero at sweet12) and Stranded (beat kero at red bank). Now include everyone at that level.
You also missed bane, LD, matts!, etc.

Kero is better than Battlecow (Essentially inactive during a period where Kero got way better) and Stranded (Kero wasn't playing to win at the most recent Redbank)

I don't think LD, Bane or Matts are going to go to Apex.

 

[clubbadubba]

down for that YOLO tourney, sounds awesome.

Also down for a weekend long single elimination 12 char battle tournament that runs all weekend long whenever people have free time. Pretty much the only time anything like that can get done, plus I wanna play actual 12 char battles against people.

 

[Nintendude]

Both of those sound awesome.

 

[Maliki]

Who are the TO's that are planning this?

Another thing,

I think we should have one big YOLO tournament after the main tournament is over.

Rules:
Single Elimination
1 Stock
Random Character, locked through the whole tournament.
Random stage.

YOLO because you only live once, get it? We did like 5 of these at the last smash fest I had and they were way more fun and hype than any tournament I have been to. And they go by pretty quick. A tournament of 10 people took like 10-15 minutes, and that was just on one tv. Since every match eliminates a person, and each takes about 1 minute, if we had 4 tv's we could eliminate 4 people every 2 minutes, so a 64 person bracket would take like 30 minutes.

That would be the greatest thing ever to come to APEX.

 

[Sensei]

I have actually been thinking about running a side event for 64 at the next Smashacre, which is basically a purely Japanese ruleset:

Single Elim
DL Only
Character Lock for whole tournament
5 stocks

I think this would be pretty hype, and maybe have only top 8 or 16 from the regular 64 tournament be allowed to join to save for time, etc.

YOLQ (You Only Live Quince)

 

[Cobrevolution]

Treatment of all games equally.
I know you're all gonna balk at that statement because 64 always gets shafted when it comes to stream time and the main stage, but the difference is in the money. More viewers = more money and the other games obviously bring in a lot more viewers. As for the fact that Smash 64 is capped while Melee/Brawl aren't, don't forget that the cap has never not been increased upon being reached.

you're goddamn right we're going to balk at that ****ing statement.

total equality is getting all the privileges of melee and brawl, a ton of stream time regardless of how much cash we put in, and equal hype. we get capped. we get squeezed out of tournaments because of low attendance in comparison to melee/brawl.

there's literally no ****ing reason we should be treated like we don't give as much money. we pay the same amounts for venue. the fact that we have a smaller community should not mean that we have to fall in line behind ****ing melee and ****ing brawl and follow whatever they do because they're more popular.

you know what, i don't even care anymore if we get streamed by the "official" guys, not if the 64 community is gonna get treated like it's a ****ing side event. we're gonna have minimum 5 recording setups and more than enough manpower to commentate everything and get the videos out.

sorry if this is heated. and it's not rage at you, mike, it's just overall frustration with how 64 is treated.

the first round of bracket is all 1 seed vs. 2 seed matchups.

i thought it was always 1 seed vs 8 seed (to use basketball logic)

I might have missed a couple names, but really only S and A tier players deserve to get into bracket.

see, this is what i don't like. you just said it's a privilege to get in. which means nobody DESERVES it except those who win. and to be frank, any single one of those players could lose a set and not make it.

ya'll are talking about hype. i'd like to see some upsets. hell, i'd like to be a part of one. i wanna see near take out sensei or boom lose a game to ybombb because that would be great to watch.

blah, whatever.

 

[Nintendude]

You misinterpret what I mean by money, cobr. Revenue comes from sponsors, advertising, etc. This is directly related to the number of people watching the stream. The fact is that less people want to watch 64 than Melee and Brawl. This would be true even if we were given a primetime viewing hour. It doesn't correlate well with the number of entrants either.

It's always high seed vs. low seed. If only top-2 advance from pools (again, just making this up), then 1 seeds play 2 seeds.

If one of those players loses a set and doesn't make it as a result, that player didn't deserve to make it based on their performance at that time. You are absolutely right - nobody deserves bracket except those who win. If Boom has an off day and loses to people he shouldn't be losing to, he doesn't deserve to be in the bracket.

 

[clubbadubba]

Don't think of the stream as a way to reward the players or bring attention to the community, think of it as a way for people to make money off the event. They want to make max money, they stream the most watched games, simple as that. No title IX bull****, if we want to get on stream we gotta make the game worth watching.

 

[Sensei]

TBH, past history should not be a solid indicator of who will get top 32 or make it to Grand Finals So it does not matter if a pre-assumed list of an arbitrary number of top 32 players will make it bracket or not. We shouldn't be catering to a specific group of players.

It doesn't matter how GOOD your SKILL is relative to other players. All that matters is how much better you are playing against the other player at that SET/ MATCH / STOCK / MOMENT, because in the end, it comes down to who WINS.

Of course, for pool seeding purposes, you don't want to do something ridiculous like have Josuke, Isai, Kikoushi, and Boom in the same pool. The EXTREMIST in me wants to do random seeding, but that is not necessarily reasonable to a lot of people and may not provide for intense hype matches of highly skilled players later on in the bracket. Our next best option is to use as little of skill judgement as possible in the pool seeding, and let the match results do the rest, so top 8 or 16 from previous tournaments in their own pool, or something like that.

 

[Cobrevolution]

You misinterpret what I mean by money, cobr. Revenue comes from sponsors, advertising, etc. This is directly related to the number of people watching the stream. The fact is that less people want to watch 64 than Melee and Brawl. This would be true even if we were given a primetime viewing hour. It doesn't correlate well with the number of entrants either.

so the fact is, 64 is only getting treated "equally" in the ways that are beneficial to the apex organizers. how patronizing.

host 64 - but cap the entrants.
give us pools - but limit the people for bracket.
potential for rr pools?! - nah would be unfair to the other two games that have been getting pools for years.
give us stream time - one hour for top 4 compared to 1 hour grand finals for melee (or w/e the number was, i forgot)

come on now. you know we're not treated fairly. but we aren't rallying for it to change.
and again, i fully understand the reasoning behind all of this - trust me, i do - but i seethe when someone puts a smiley on it and says "you guys are being treated exactly the same!". don't pretend.
and again - this isn't me criticizing you, mike, or you, will, but rather me venting over the overall treatment of the community. it's not like i'm ignorant of the facts, i am just not a fan of how things go down.

if we want to get on stream we gotta make the game worth watching.

i feel like we've had this discussion, though.

people are still gonna look at the game as if it's a side event or just for nostalgic purposes. to make the game "worth watching", we'd have to have a lot of hype matches with people willing to pick other characters and other stages and take more risks and etcetcetc, and a lot of people aren't willing to sacrifice their own potential victory for the enjoyment of others. and i do not think anyone should place someone else's enjoyment over their own when it comes to playing.

what would make people want to watch the stream? tavo doing some absurd **** on hyru -- OH WAIT.

 

[Nintendude]

This is just a fact of business, really. Why don't we see NBC cover any of the obscure sports during the olympics? Why do we just see Michael Phelps swim a million times? It's because it brings in the most viewers and thus the most revenue. I'm sure the Equestrian community isn't too happy about it but there's nothing they can really do to change things except try to make their sport more popular.

Your other points just don't even make sense to me to be honest, except for the one about the other games "getting pools for years." I mean yeah I suppose we could receive compensation in the form of "let's bend the rules just for us" but nobody is entitled to do that nor is that necessarily the right way of going about things.

 

[Nintendude]

The one thing we can do, however, is have an "official" SSB64 streamer approach Apex Staff about having streaming rights for the event. Last year nobody did that, so when we went to try and set up our own stream we got denied because the contracts or whatever had already been signed granting exclusive streaming rights to the official livestreams.

This is entirely on you guys though. I am not involved with streaming.

people are still gonna look at the game as if it's a side event or just for nostalgic purposes. to make the game "worth watching", we'd have to have a lot of hype matches with people willing to pick other characters and other stages and take more risks and etcetcetc, and a lot of people aren't willing to sacrifice their own potential victory for the enjoyment of others. and i do not think anyone should place someone else's enjoyment over their own when it comes to playing.

what would make people want to watch the stream? tavo doing some absurd **** on hyru -- OH WAIT.

It's funny you bring this up, because one of the motivations behind experimenting with 4-stock matches and eliminating Hyrule is for faster-paced matches, thus increasing the chances of our game getting stream time. I mean yeah of course people do absurdly cool things on Hyrule sometimes but the fact is that when it gets to crunch time more often than not it becomes a big campfest that the average viewer isn't going to want to watch. Do you guys remember when Chibo (the Zenith streamer) came in to our board and suggested the same types of changes?

 

[Cobrevolution]

This is just a fact of business, really.

turning a game meant for enjoyment into an extension of a business is pretty ****ed, innit?

like i said, i understand the reasoning. doesn't mean i have to be happy about it or hold the same opinion as anyone else.

how do they not make sense?

there are about 3x as many melee/brawl tournaments as there are 64. apex decides to host 64...but they put a limit on how many people can join. there's no limit for the other games. "we're treating you fair, but you can't have as many people."

we're receiving pools years after the other games have had them, yet we're only getting 32 of 128 (or perhaps more than 128). i've already explained why i think a quarter of the entrants is wack, but hey, that's really just opinion. but if strife really said that we can't get rr pools because that's unfair to melee and brawl, can't you see how laughable that is? that 64 has been treated unfairly by melee/brawl players and to's and if we have something they don't, then all of a sudden everyone wants to cry foul? "if you have something different from us, that isn't fair! (yet not realizing they have had something different from us for a long time...)."

and regarding stream, people say oh make the game more interesting, expose it more, give it more hype, make people want to watch it...well, if there were more time on stream, we'd have more opportunity to do that. if we have limited time on stage, we have limited time to get exposure. but the reason we have limited time is we don't have as many followers. because we haven't had the same kind of exposure. it's ouroboros, really. "you'll get live viewing time!...but only a fraction of everything else. it's only fair."

basically, just don't make a claim like we're receiving the same privileges as the other games when we aren't.

It's funny you bring this up, because one of the motivations behind experimenting with 4-stock matches and eliminating Hyrule is for faster-paced matches, thus increasing the chances of our game getting stream time.

i was under the impression a big reason was time constraints - which we discussed at length and discovered that time is not an issue when it comes to 64 at apex. i mean you could just be biased and choose to only stream the matches you think aren't going to be campfests, but then that might backfire. i dunno.

why hasn't anyone asked stream viewers what they want to see out of 64? not because we should listen to them and alter our rulesets, but because a lot of this experimentation and backlash could be avoided if we just find out what people are looking for when they watch our matches.

 

[clubbadubba]

The one thing we can do, however, is have an "official" SSB64 streamer approach Apex Staff about having streaming rights for the event.

This is what we need to do. Its ridiculous to expect someone or some organization to stream 64 when the primary reason they are there is to make money. We need to have our own stream set up and do it before hand.

@Cobr:

1) Cap has never not been increased once it is reached, not a real issue.

2) Melee had 32/300ish in 2012, 128/300ish in 2013, tourney structure for all games fluctuate from year to year. A quarter of the entrants in bracket is not a horrible ratio by any means

3) NOBODY SAID ITS 32 GOD I WISH A NUMBER WAS NEVER MENTIONED PEOPLE ARE ACTING LIKE ITS FACT NOW!

4) To quote a high level (top 5 NA): "64 is fun to play, but not necessarily fun to watch." Simple facts of the game we play is that it is generally not a spectators game.

5) "turning a game meant for enjoyment into an extension of a business is pretty ****ed, innit?" No I think its ****ing awesome. There are people out there who literally don't have a real job and play and/or stream/cast video games FOR A LIVING. That is ****ing awesome. That is the god damn American dream. Them making money doesn't prevent our enjoyment at all, it just adds to theirs and yea for the pro's living off gaming prolly makes the game a bit more stressful and a bit less fun FOR THEM, but that is the personal decision they made. Keep in mind that the people who are streaming these games have invested thousands of dollars into the equipment for it, who are we to say "you have to use that equipment to stream this"? They have every right to use that equipment to make a profit. Without these people making money off us, there WOULDN'T BE A HIGH QUALITY STREAM to speak of. This is a capitalistic country, if you want someone to buy your product (aka view it on stream) you have to make it worth their time/money. No handouts, no weaksauce. We had time on stream at Zenith and it was boring. Our commentary is amateur, our play aside from a select few players is boring to watch. Stream time is absolutely not equal on a per game basis. It is absolutely equal on a per entertainment basis aka a per $ basis aka MURICA. The 2nd one is what is called "fair" in a capitalistic society, the first one is called communism. Go back to the USSR!

Oh man that last one was a bit ranty my bad lol... But seriously I think pro gaming is awesome and we have to understand that the better games will win out in that regard, just the way it is. We will have all the good games recorded, and the highest of high games will be streamed. That's pretty damn good for a game from 1999 that has literally <1000 people who play it seriously IN THE WORLD.

 

[Fireblaster]

No streamer is going to make money off of 64 if they only stream top 4 at 10 AM on saturday morning.

 

[The Star King]

Another thing,

I think we should have one big YOLO tournament after the main tournament is over.

Rules:
Single Elimination
1 Stock
Random Character, locked through the whole tournament.
Random stage.

YOLO because you only live once, get it? We did like 5 of these at the last smash fest I had and they were way more fun and hype than any tournament I have been to. And they go by pretty quick. A tournament of 10 people took like 10-15 minutes, and that was just on one tv. Since every match eliminates a person, and each takes about 1 minute, if we had 4 tv's we could eliminate 4 people every 2 minutes, so a 64 person bracket would take like 30 minutes.

GFs: YOLOlight vs Han YOLO

 

[clubbadubba]

No streamer is going to make money off of 64 if they only stream top 4 at 10 AM on saturday morning.

yea unfortunately i think they only do that because they stand to make very little money off of 64 at all and only do it when they have no other games to stream. Reality is a melee pools match would get more viewers than 64 finals in a lot of scenarios.

We should just make our own stream.

 

[SheerMadness]

We weren't allowed to have our own stream last year.

But if we are this year we should definitely stream the whole tourney.

 

[clubbadubba]

We were too late last year, we need to be proactive and do it now.

 

[Han Solo]

We had time on stream at Zenith and it was boring.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTICby-33I

 

[Sensei]

Who has the most followers on their account for 64 viewing? This probably doesn't really matter, as long as we get streamed, but it would be cool if someone started their hardcore 64 streaming channel and get a lot of viewers, sponsors, followers / subscribers, etc. and have a twitter account to send out updates and build a following. We could be making money off of this instead of some joe schmo melee / brawl / pm dude.

This would also help grow the 64 scene.

 

[The Star King]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HxTICby-33I

That is a long lost time. The days where Han Solo was man enough to play Fox on Dreamland.

R.I.P.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Cap has never not been increased once it is reached, not a real issue.

i think it's an issue that there's a cap in the first place.

NOBODY SAID ITS 32 GOD I WISH A NUMBER WAS NEVER MENTIONED PEOPLE ARE ACTING LIKE ITS FACT NOW!

well it's already been stated that it's going to be less than 64 and if only top two make it out of pools, that leads to a 32 man bracket. 128/16 = 8. 8 pools of 4. 2/4 make it. 32 entrants.

"64 is fun to play, but not necessarily fun to watch." Simple facts of the game we play is that it is generally not a spectators game.

which is why the entire streaming thing is so futile. i'd rather we do the streaming and recording ourselves. i merely do not like how underhanded it's being handled.

long clubba statement

the problem with all of it, clubba, is selfishness, unfairness, no decency, etcetc. i'm not gonna get into comparing capitalism and communism/socialism with the smash community haha.

what i will say: "Them making money doesn't prevent our enjoyment at all" - in the case of smash streaming, well, it certainly can. if they're not making money from us being on stream - and some of us like it and enjoy commentary and want to see us be exposed - and consequently remove us from live view entirely, then it will in fact prevent some people from enjoying it.

the goal of a business is to make money. and seldom are you going to find a business willing to sacrifice its income for others' enjoyment (enjoyment being the operative word; i'm sure you could substitute benefit, happiness, security etcetc).
i do not find that ****ing awesome.

 

[Yobolight]

Just my two cents, the main stage crowd factor in Kikoushi vs Isai GFs made it pretty fun to watch.

I hope at least the Finals will be on main stage.

Also Isai vs Kikoushi has 57000 views on Youtube. That is pretty respectable.

 

[Han Solo]

Just my two cents, the main stage crowd factor in Kikoushi vs Isai GFs made it pretty fun to watch.

I hope at least the Finals will be on main stage.

I watch that video every so often just to get some lulz from everyone trashing on the Battlecow commentary.

 

[Sangoku]

Saying 64 isn't fun to watch is like saying melee isn't fun to play. It doesn't mean anything more than opinion. 64 is the only game I can watch.

And I agree you should have your own stream. Which channel though? I would have said malva's, but it's been inactive for some times I think, so I don't know if it's still popular enough.

 

[Maliki]

Who are the TO's for this event? Did strife ever make his final decision on the Hyrule ban?

 

[thegreginator]

Why don't we see NBC cover any of the obscure sports during the olympics? Why do we just see Michael Phelps swim a million times? It's because it brings in the most viewers and thus the most revenue. I'm sure the Equestrian community isn't too happy about it but there's nothing they can really do to change things except try to make their sport more popular.

How is no one else upset that Nintendude stole the patended clubba sports reference?

 

[The Star King]

I was confused for a moment about why the My Little Pony community would expect to be in the Olympics. The internet has corrupted me.

 

[SSBPete]

plus I wanna play actual 12 char battles against people.

you're on

I think pools of 8 round robin, 32 man bracket is ideal.
everyone gets fair game time and the best 2 advance from each pool making a hype bracket

 

[clubbadubba]

you're on

I think pools of 8 round robin, 32 man bracket is ideal.
everyone gets fair game time and the best 2 advance from each pool making a hype bracket

lol 12 char's last sooooooooooo ****ing long though i think RR is no good. SINGLE ELIMINATION like men. We'll put the whole tournament on the dedicated 64 stream.

As far as streams go, I am trying to start streaming frequently, though all of the smash servers are not complying with my wishes. I'm gonna learn to host p2p and then hopefully I can start. Doubt I'll ever get many views but its worth a shot.

 

[MrMarbles]

can someone explain to me how bracket pools work and how they differ from round robin pools?

 

[clubbadubba]

can someone explain to me how bracket pools work and how they differ from round robin pools?

basically instead of say 16 pools of 8 or whatever, there are 16 double elimination brackets of 8. The top 2 (or however many) from that mini tournament would advance. So losers finals of every pool would be an elimination match (if only 2 go on)

 

[MrMarbles]

basically instead of say 16 pools of 8 or whatever, there are 16 double elimination brackets of 8. The top 2 (or however many) from that mini tournament would advance. So losers finals of every pool would be an elimination match (if only 2 go on)

so how does this give players more matches? isn't that why pools are supposedly better than one giant bracket?

I'm mainly just interested in playing as many tourney matches as possible. with our small number of entrants compared to melee and brawl it seems completely feasible to do RR instead of bracket pools. Especially if our set ups are independent from melee's. I don't want to travel such a long way just to play in two competitive sets and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.