Apex 2014 - January 17-19, 2014 - Somerset, NJ

[Han Solo]

Do you guys want round robin pools at Apex?

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-question-to-all-you-melee-and-brawl-players-regarding-64.341546/

 

[Maliki]

Do you guys want round robin pools at Apex?

http://smashboards.com/threads/a-question-to-all-you-melee-and-brawl-players-regarding-64.341546/

Can you please explain what round robin pools are. Are they what we had at zenith?

 

[The Star King]

The king is coming?

sweeeeeet =D

I never said that

Actually I probably did say that at some point

But I was probably lying



There's an old saying: "You don't know if Star King will enter a tournament until he walks into the venue"

and by old

I mean 5 seconds old

SK OUT

 

[Han Solo]

Can you please explain what round robin pools are. Are they what we had at zenith?

Yes, exactly that.

 

[Maliki]

Oh cool. I think that there are positives and negatives to a red robin pool system at apex. For example out of all the people that signed up a majority would not make it to bracket.. But they would of still gotten to play great tournament matches so it kinda evens out. I'm not sure what I would vote for yet.

 

[The Star King]

Yeah but those people, who are presumably not very good, will have played more games in pools than if it's bracket and they get knocked out in 2 or 3 sets. So it's actually better for players who are at lower skill level.

 

[Maliki]

Yeah pools are pretty cool.

 

[weedwack]

The only argument against pools I've heard is "boo hoo what if I don't make bracket?"

As if a bracket system would have gotten you a higher/more fair placing?

Given we have the time, 100% pools yes please.

Also, seeding bracket with pool results > seeding by TOs

 

[Shears]

Oh cool. I think that there are positives and negatives to a red robin pool system at apex. For example out of all the people that signed up a majority would not make it to bracket.. But they would of still gotten to play great tournament matches so it kinda evens out. I'm not sure what I would vote for yet.

What negatives are there to a red robin pool? Swimming in a pit of bottomless fries sounds pretty positive to me.

 

[Maliki]

What negatives are there to a red robin pool? Swimming in a pit of bottomless fries sounds pretty positive to me.

Neative: paying for tournament not making to bracket. But that get canceled out somewhat when you get to play in the pool

 

[ballin4life]

I never said that

Actually I probably did say that at some point

But I was probably lying



There's an old saying: "You don't know if Star King will enter a tournament until he walks into the venue"

and by old

I mean 5 seconds old

SK OUT

sounds like SK could pull a sheer and take APEX by storm

The only argument against pools I've heard is "boo hoo what if I don't make bracket?"

As if a bracket system would have gotten you a higher/more fair placing?

Given we have the time, 100% pools yes please.

Also, seeding bracket with pool results > seeding by TOs

you still have to seed for pools, otherwise you wind up with one pool full of strong players and one pool full of nubs

What negatives are there to a red robin pool? Swimming in a pit of bottomless fries sounds pretty positive to me.

round robin pools have more opportunities for bracket manipulation than bracket pools. if you've already made it to bracket you can throw your remaining matches to manipulate the bracket / knock out contenders who had a bad day at pools.

 

[Nintendude]

Apex is looking into doing bracket-style pools for all Smash games. This is what they did for Melee and Brawl last year. 64 will have whatever is consistent with Melee and Brawl.

Also, to the very few people out there who are actually opposed to pools - Elimination rounds are part of a tournament. Pools allow you to play more people than you normally would, especially if you aren't very good. Making it to bracket is a privilege and not an entitlement. There's also nothing more hype than a 32-man bracket containing only the world's best players. Obviously some popular players won't make the cut but all that's really saying is that they aren't as good as you thought they were, relative to the other entrants at least.

 

[Maliki]

So there is going to be a 32 man bracket at a 128 member tournament. That's kind of ridiculous.

 

[Nintendude]

I just made up a number for now, but how is that ridiculous? What's the point of taking the time to do an elimination round if half the players advance?

 

[Maliki]

But only 32 players advance that's kind of ridiculous. I understand the point of an elimination round but I don't think that many players should be cut out of the bracket but it isn't my decision to make.

 

[Olikus]

64 man bracket sounds best. I mean we play smash 64 duh

 

[Nintendude]

But only 32 players advance that's kind of ridiculous. I understand the point of an elimination round but I don't think that many players should be cut out of the bracket but it isn't my decision to make.

And why exactly shouldn't that many players be cut?

 

[Maliki]

64 man bracket sounds best. I mean we play smash 64 duh

Yeah I think that's a better number.

And why exactly shouldn't that many players be cut?

My opinion is that it cuts a big majority of the entrants out that came to play in the tournament but I don't mind the pools and the people that are coming get to play more games but I think that only 32 is kinda of small bracket for a 128 entrant event that takes out a big portion of the entrants.

 

[B-Town]

I just made up a number for now, but how is that ridiculous? What's the point of taking the time to do an elimination round if half the players advance?

The point at least for a lot of us is to have to have more matches. While pools already does that, if time permits 64 man bracket is even better. SSB64 is like cocaine for these people. Who ever says "no, gimme less cocaine"

 

[Nintendude]

My opinion is that it cuts a big majority of the entrants out that came to play in the tournament but I don't mind the pools and the people that are coming get to play more games but I think that only 32 is kinda of small bracket for a 128 entrant event that takes out a big portion of the entrants.

So, you believe that pools and/or elimination rounds do not constitute "the tournament?" What if an event was run entirely on pools/swiss and didn't have a bracket? Is that not a tournament?

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I was all for a 32 man bracket. I agree with Nintendude, making it to bracket is a privilege and not an entitlement.

Then i got bored in class and decided to try something out. I wrote out what i thought were the top 32 players attending this event, in attempt to get a better idea of what a 32 man bracket would actually look like. What i found is that we have a LOT of really great players coming to this guys. I was extremely surprised with the amount of talented players that probably wouldn't get a chance to play in bracket.

I still think that i prefer a 32 man bracket and that it might even be best from a strictly competitive point of view. But at what cost? This is something we really need to talk about as a community. A lot of good players would be excluded and I don't know if everyone is cool with that.

I urge you all to do what i did and write down what you think the top 32 players attending this event are (on paper you goons, don't post that ****) before you pick a side. I think you will all be surprised with the results as well.

All in all, I'm sure the community is pretty torn about this topic. I think we should have it discussed for a while and then leave it to a vote. Thoughts?

Oh, and i think that only players entering the tournament should vote lol.

 

[Olikus]

I just think that with a 64 man bracket, half the player get cut out. I dont think half the players are random brawl noobs. Good people will make bracket, and it will be a privilege. 32 is only the very best. I dont feel the point witha bracket is to exclude allmsot everyone, even the great, but not super great players.

 

[thegreginator]

There isn't an actual difference between getting eliminated in pools and getting eliminated first round from the bracket. It's all part of the tournament. People put too much psychological importance on "THE Bracket."

Nintendude - how is pool seeding being done? ELO ranking? And does this ELO carry over to the main bracket to differentiate those that come out pool with the same record?

 

[B Link]

32 is fine lol

 

[Han Solo]

64 will have whatever is consistent with Melee and Brawl.

What's the reasoning behind this?

 

[Nintendude]

I don't think this is something that is a point of contention anywhere outside of the Smash 64 boards to be honest. Selective brackets, death pools, etc. have been a part of Smash tournaments for quite some time, and the trend seems to be that a very selective bracket generates the most hype and recognition for the players who made it that far. Let's use previous Apexes as an example:

Apex 2012: 318 Melee entrants -> 32-man bracket
"If you made it to bracket, you are really good at this game"

Apex 2013: ~350 Melee entrants -> 128-man bracket
"If you didn't make it to bracket, you suck"

Apex 2013's bracket was roughly 1/3 of the players and people didn't like it because it wasn't selective enough.

You all should remember that pool matches are still very important and hype. If it comes down to, let's say, me vs. Sheer in our bracket pool and elimination is on the line, that's just as significant as if it was in the top-32 (or top-whatever) bracket. Some of you may believe that in a case like this, both Sheer and I "deserve" to be in the bracket, but what this really indicates is that one of us isn't actually good enough to make the cut.

What's the reasoning behind this?

Treatment of all games equally.
I know you're all gonna balk at that statement because 64 always gets shafted when it comes to stream time and the main stage, but the difference is in the money. More viewers = more money and the other games obviously bring in a lot more viewers. As for the fact that Smash 64 is capped while Melee/Brawl aren't, don't forget that the cap has never not been increased upon being reached.

Nintendude - how is pool seeding being done? ELO ranking? And does this ELO carry over to the main bracket to differentiate those that come out pool with the same record?

The same way it has always been done in the past - a combination of past tournament results, head to head matchups, input from a few players (we asked Boom to make sure some people weren't nobodies lol), and any other metrics we have available (Elo, in this case). Bracket seeding takes pool results into account. For example, if each pool has a 1st and 2nd seed, the first round of bracket is all 1 seed vs. 2 seed matchups.

 

[Maliki]

This is a load of barnacles.

 

[The Star King]

Tartar sauce!

 

[clubbadubba]

I urge you all to do what i did and write down what you think the top 32 players attending this event are (on paper you goons, don't post that ****) before you pick a side. I think you will all be surprised with the results as well.

I am fully aware that with a 32 man bracket I have a very good shot of missing out on bracket. In fact if I do make it, I'm pretty sure I'll be bottom third of the bracket which means I'll just lose to a top 10 player, hopefully win a close 1st round losers game then prolly lose again. That's okay. Tough tourney, no need to baby everyone. ****ing giving out trophy's to everyone these days I swear.

Are you guys suggesting they should let half of the teams in the NFL into the playoffs (which honestly soon they will because $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$)? No need to dilute the bracket. If its more games we're concerned about, make a bottom bracket with players 32-64 or something. Better quality games anyway instead of pitting #64 against #1 (oh god remember poor george?)

 

[Maliki]

Or here me out we get the TOs
To make the bracket not 32 players.
Imagine if that happened.

 

[Han Solo]

Maliki you're just trying to fluke your way into getting a really good placing like you did at Smashacre. 32 players is fine.

 

[clubbadubba]

My god dude do you go to school?

Imagine if we made it 16 players? Imagine if that happened. Its an arbitrary number. Pick it based on number of games and hype. Don't pick it to make people feel better or make people not angry about not being good enough to make it into some contrived level of excellence.

 

[Nintendude]

Again, 32 isn't final either. It's just a number I made up for this discussion. That said though, there's no way the bracket will have half of the total entrants so it would certainly be less than 64 unless we far exceed 128 players.

 

[Yobolight]

As has been said before making it into bracket is a privileged not a right.
S Tier players at Apex: (4/5)
Isai
Boom
Ruoka Danchon
Moyashi
Maybe the 3rd Japanese player

A Tier: (12/13)
JaimeHR
Tacos
Sensei
A$
Kefit
Kerokeroppi
Captain Tavo
Mariguas
Dext3r
Sheermadness
Star King (Keyboard)
Firo
YBombb
+ maybe a couple I missed
S + A tier total: ~15-20

I might have missed a couple names, but really only S and A tier players deserve to get into bracket.
That means that people who have no business getting into bracket (Not S or A tier) WILL get into bracket anyway.

I don't think 32 is stingy at all.

Edit: replaced Tirolargo with Dext3r, thanks Solo

 

[Karajan]

I think pools are a good idea ONLY under 1 condition:
People who made top 4 in previous 2 Apex's should automatically be in the bracket and should not play in the pools.

So Boomfan, Isai, Rouka, JaimeHR, Kefit should automatically have a spot in the bracket.

 

[Han Solo]

I'm fairly sure Tirolargo is Mariguas.

 

[The Star King]

He is.

He seemed pretty good when I played him although hard to tell because 5 frames.

 

[Fireblaster]

Apex is looking into doing bracket-style pools for all Smash games. This is what they did for Melee and Brawl last year. 64 will have whatever is consistent with Melee and Brawl.

Also, to the very few people out there who are actually opposed to pools - Elimination rounds are part of a tournament. Pools allow you to play more people than you normally would, especially if you aren't very good. Making it to bracket is a privilege and not an entitlement. There's also nothing more hype than a 32-man bracket containing only the world's best players. Obviously some popular players won't make the cut but all that's really saying is that they aren't as good as you thought they were, relative to the other entrants at least.

Why does 64 have to be consistent with melee and brawl?

Are we getting a stream of our own for our bracket matches?
Are we getting a top 8 stream or at least something more than a pathetic top 4 on ****ing saturday morning at 10 AM when nobody is watching?
Are timers gonna be enforced for every single tournament match because melee and brawl have them?


I understand that melee and brawl will probably have 3 times the amount of players that we do, but you know it's going to be bull**** when a ****ing mod of the worst smash game yet is going to get better attention than 64. I'm calling it right now.

 

[Yobolight]

Top 8 seems fair considering the talent that is going to be there.

 

[Nintendude]

Timers are a weak source of comparison. That's a ruleset and game feature issue. Everything else ultimately comes down to money, as I previously said. Honestly we should be grateful for any steam time at all given that we bring in less viewers.