Apex 2013 - Pools up in OP! - Only at the door for FGC!

[GDX]

it's logically correct to reset the bracket.

its logically correct to maybe rearrange the bracket, but not to reset so everyone gets a fresh 2 losses

and I explained why its called pools already Kyle. Its more naming convention then actual meaning

 

[Keitaro]

GDX do you think Evo's way of 2 losses and out is the best way to do big tournaments?

I personally think it is only done for time constraints otherwise Evo would have to last a week to finish if they did Smash-like pools.


As for whether bracket pools are reset or not for Apex.....I don't remember lol. Trying to figure that out now.

 

[GDX]

GDX do you think Evo's way of 2 losses and out is the best way to do big tournaments?

I personally think it is only done for time constraints otherwise Evo would have to last a week to finish if they did Smash-like pools.

I think that if you are going to have a bracket, then yes EVO is the best way to do it (2 losses total and out). because that is an actual bracket. Some people having 3 losses and others having 2 losses is WAY more of an advantage then just higher/lower seeding in the final bracket, and if only some people have 3 losses in a bracket, then it isnt a legit bracket to begin with.

It stems from people wanting to play more games for their money, to get "their moneys worth". These people forget that a tournament is not about if you happen to get your money worth, its about proving your skill. You know how you get your money's worth in tourney entry? You stop being bad and you get to play longer. Save the quantity of matches you play for friendlies/casuals/money matches, and save the quality for the actual tournament itself.

I must be weird by smash standards when it comes to how I see tournaments. I was a smash player long before a street fighter player, and I went to one EVO, along with 20+ nationals for smash (all of which have round robin), and even though I get to play more matches in round robin, even though i get my moneys worth, even though I get more leeway and automatically get to last longer because I have more losss, even though I would spend $400-500 with no chance of making money, I STILL UNDERSTAND THAT ITS BULL****. I'm able to push away from how it benefits me, and look at it logically. I don't feel that everyone does that when arguing points in the smash community, be it pools or MK ban or matchups or anything.

IF someone wants bracket pools with a reset bracket or round robin or even swiss, thats fine thats their personal preference. But those people cannot say that those 3 methods logically are the best for finding the best players. They can only say they like them more than a true big bracket.

 

[da K.I.D.]

like i said i dont mind one or the other, and i dont think one is more fair than the other. just call them what they actually are.

 

[GDX]

A pool is just a group of players in a tournament that play each other. No one said a pool has to have people eliminated. It's literally just a group of competitors within a tournament. its a sub group, collection, section

The problem is that you and others just group the word pool with how its used the most, instead of its actual meaning of the word. When you see pools, you think of something that filters players out of it and they go into another section fresh. But thats not what pools means. Pools just means the group, you're taking it to mean what happens to the group itself

 

[Player-1]

I think that if you are going to have a bracket, then yes EVO is the best way to do it (2 losses total and out). because that is an actual bracket. Some people having 3 losses and others having 2 losses is WAY more of an advantage then just higher/lower seeding in the final bracket, and if only some people have 3 losses in a bracket, then it isnt a legit bracket to begin with.

except people don't have 3 losses in a bracket, they'll always have 2 if it's double elimination. If there's pools THEN there can be more than 2 losses which is fine.

It stems from people wanting to play more games for their money, to get "their moneys worth". These people forget that a tournament is not about if you happen to get your money worth, its about proving your skill. You know how you get your money's worth in tourney entry? You stop being bad and you get to play longer. Save the quantity of matches you play for friendlies/casuals/money matches, and save the quality for the actual tournament itself.

The best possible way to prove skill would be to put everyone in a huge pool where everyone plays everyone so there is no luck of who plays who in bracket, getting that 1 bad MU for your char, etc. Whoever had the best record at the end would be the best player. Obviously we can't do that because of time constraints. A straight double elimination is worse for finding the best player since there is more randomness and luck in who you play affecting your placing.

 

[GDX]

double elim definitely has its downfalls too, its no angel. But its definitely better for finding the best players than round robin and swiss. Everyone cant play everyone obviously (you said this already), but double elim is the next best option.

if you're going to go through using brackets at all, then resetting losses for the final section defeats the purpose BECAUSE BRACKETS ARENT THE POOLS THAT YOURE USED TO. You can't keepy applying the rules of something like round robin (different number of losses for different players) to a bracket (same for everyone).

 

[GDX]

Honestly if you want to reset losses in a bracket then you might as well just get 1000 setups and do round robin like before, have mass manipulation of results, have mariofiend52 and aether5000 be happy cause they got to go 0-2 in five sets before they were eliminated from first round of round robin but got their moneys worth, just do **** like before and not even try to accomadate for growth or try to change for the sake of the community

Smash community: Want their game to be bigger and have a wider audience, not willing to change ways, compromise, or invest in growth. Love you guys

 

[Keitaro]

double elim definitely has its downfalls too, its no angel. But its definitely better for finding the best players than round robin and swiss. Everyone cant play everyone obviously (you said this already), but double elim is the next best option.

if you're going to go through using brackets at all, then resetting losses for the final section defeats the purpose BECAUSE BRACKETS ARENT THE POOLS THAT YOURE USED TO. You can't keepy applying the rules of something like round robin (different number of losses for different players) to a bracket (same for everyone).

Double Elimination often has more skewed results than one with pools. I thought that was commonly known.

 

[GDX]

Double Elimination often has more skewed results than one with pools. I thought that was commonly known.

badly seeded doulble elim brackets can definitely be worse than round robin pools. Thats why a non-*** TO has to seed them decently. Not these jerk offs who stack one side of a bracket with the 5th level of hell while the other side is Team Amy of Sonic Heroes.

any decently seeded double elim bracket is going to be more accurate than round robin, purely because in a double elim bracket, manipulation is essentially impossible (still possible but not nearly as easy or even feasible as round robin). Everyone in a double elim bracket at least deserved to be there, because thats how the bracket started. Round robin you have people throwing single games or matches just to make sure someone gets out (or doesnt get out) without actually "playing" their match.

 

[Player-1]

Smash community: Want their game to be bigger and have a wider audience, not willing to change ways, compromise, or invest in growth. Love you guys

what? Growth of the community starts with making the people going 0-2 in bracket keep coming back and they won't want to keep coming back if they don't feel like getting their money's worth.

 

[Keitaro]

badly seeded doulble elim brackets can definitely be worse than round robin pools. Thats why a non-*** TO has to seed them decently. Not these jerk offs who stack one side of a bracket with the 5th level of hell while the other side is Team Amy of Sonic Heroes.

any decently seeded double elim bracket is going to be more accurate than round robin, purely because in a double elim bracket, manipulation is essentially impossible (still possible but not nearly as easy or even feasible as round robin). Everyone in a double elim bracket at least deserved to be there, because thats how the bracket started. Round robin you have people throwing single games or matches just to make sure someone gets out (or doesnt get out) without actually "playing" their match.

If you have round robin pools with top 4 out of 8 making it to another round of pools where top 4 out of 8 making it to a final bracket of 16 you will more accurately get the top 16 players of the tournament than a double elimination bracket of 64 players where bad matchups, counter picking, and mistakes can lead to a lower than expected placing at a tournament.

Something similar happened to Seibrik at KTAR 6. He got 65th out of 132 players. Then at Apex 2012 he got top 25 out of 400 players, a more deserving place for him in an event that happened to have round robin pools. Same could be said for Orion at the same tournament (got 65th at KTAR 6 but got 17th at Apex 2012 with round robin pools)

It is only 2 examples but it is possible to see where I'm going from this

TLDR: Everyone fighting more people will create more accurate results than everyone fighting less people.

 

[#HBC | Scary]

Why do I feel like I'm not going to enjoy these bracket pools.....

 

[GDX]

what? Growth of the community starts with making the people going 0-2 in bracket keep coming back and they won't want to keep coming back if they don't feel like getting their money's worth.

I'm an advocate of tough love. If you're getting bodied in tournaments, then either try to get better or quit. Pretty much applies for anything really.

If you have round robin pools with top 4 out of 8 making it to another round of pools where top 4 out of 8 making it to a final bracket of 16 you will more accurately get the top 16 players of the tournament than a double elimination bracket of 64 players where bad matchups, counter picking, and mistakes can lead to a lower than expected placing at a tournament.

Something similar happened to Seibrik at KTAR 6. He got 65th out of 132 players. Then at Apex 2012 he got top 25 out of 400 players, a more deserving place for him in an event that happened to have round robin pools. Same could be said for Orion at the same tournament (got 65th at KTAR 6 but got 17th at Apex 2012 with round robin pools)

It is only 2 examples but it is possible to see where I'm going from this.

I see where you're coming from. Round robin is fantastic for top top players. They get more warm up games, get to try secondaries, they can get so far ahead they can lose and still be first seed, or at least guaranteed out, all while more or less ****ing around.

A more deserving place? David is my boy, but (and this goes for anyone) the only place in tourney results any person deserves is what they placed that day. If they had a bad day and placed badly, then its on them to play better. He doesnt deserve auto top 16 just because he's Seibrik. He would deserve top 16 because he earned it with his play. Nothing to do with who he is, or what he's done in the past. Who cares f he got 65th in a bracket? You know what that means? That just means he would either have to A.) learn that matchup B.) refine his own personal playstyle C.) be more careful (if he lost to something highly unfortunate). If someone places in a bracket you cant say they deserved to place higher. They deserve exactly what they got.

I keep agreeing with you guys that RR gives more leeway to the player. I've even said multiple times that if you prefer it, then more power to you. If its purely personal preference with no logic involved...I wont like it, but I can't say anything about that. But you guys are logically saying its better, and thats just not correct. If everyone could play everyone, that would obviously be the best. But due to impossible to overcome constraints, thats not possible

For every example you have of a top player placing better because of round robin (duh, round robin a top player would be less likely to play other top players within their two pools then they would one bracket), someone could come up with an excuse of a B or C level player not getting out of round robin just because someone threw a match or a set with no reprecussions on themselves.

t

 

[Player-1]

I'm an advocate of tough love. If you're getting bodied in tournaments, then either try to get better or quit. Pretty much applies for anything really.

Hey, I love that mindset too, but too bad it's not practical to have that and keep a healthy, developing community because those people WILL quit and then we won't have anyone entering tournaments anymore.

 

[KageMurphy]

This is why some of you darkies shoulda been left on the fields, always creating trouble.

 

[GDX]

Hey, I love that mindset too, but too bad it's not practical to have that and keep a healthy, developing community because those people WILL quit and then we won't have anyone entering tournaments anymore.

legal characters, ridiculous stages, shunning other communities, unwilling to change

yep, developing the community sure is top priority on everyone's mind

lol **** you phil you look like me. watch your back at tourneys you might get attacked in my place from crazed smashers

I'm going to apex either way. I'm gonna have fun either way. I'm gonna play my best either way. This will be an amazing tourney either way. I was just laying out why the proposed format is faulty to me.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I enjoy flying to apex and playing more than 2 sets :D


edit:
megabussing.

 

[Grey Belnades]

I enjoy flying to apex and playing more than 2 sets :D


edit:
megabussing.

You too? I thought I was the only one who enjoyed traveling from coast to coast to warm up to a couple sets.

 

[GDX]

I realize its just a mindset that depends on the person. I went to EVO and went 2-2 in AE brackets and was out. It cost me probably 800 total of hotel room, food, flight, and tourney entry. And I would do it again no problem.

I've driven 4 hours only to go 0-2 in a tourney, and I'd do it again because I wanted to get better. I didn't care that I only got to play two tourney matches. It's not about the money spent its just about getting better to me. So when I say these things, other people who have an entirely different frame of mind look at my points like jibberish (as I do to their points). I'll fall back from the argument because the core issue is something that cannot be swayed or won with an argument or debate.

 

[_Kain_]

GDX is right, smash community is too entitled and I find it funny some of you guys assume you will only play 2 sets cause your that garbage.

Get better if you don't wanna just play only 2 sets, **** your friendlies

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Journey 1: Orlando, FL, Lynx Central Station - 455 North Garland Ave to Atlanta, GA, MARTA Civic Center - 435 W Peachtree St NW
Date: Tuesday January 08, 2013
Passengers: 2
Leaving: 11:30 PM
Arriving: 8:45 AM
Price: $5.00


We in there.
Bought my first megabus tickets to APEX

 

[GDX]

Journey 1: Orlando, FL, Lynx Central Station - 455 North Garland Ave to Atlanta, GA, MARTA Civic Center - 435 W Peachtree St NW
Date: Tuesday January 08, 2013
Passengers: 2
Leaving: 11:30 PM
Arriving: 8:45 AM
Price: $5.00


We in there.
Bought my first megabus tickets to APEX

oh god no dont do it

 

[da K.I.D.]

for the record, smasher are incredibly entitled, and every community has problems but alot of the qualms you brought up just now is just you being salty at people not agreeing with you. Considering everyone has the same issues.

if we can all agree that everyone playing everyone is the most objective way to figure out who the best player is, how is it that we some how go from that to playing the least amount of matches possible (1 giant bracket) being the second best option?

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

oh god no dont do it

i am so in there

 

[DewDaDash]

Sure you can look at it like that. The problem is like GDX said though the two are COMPLETELY different. The biggest difference being like he said manipulation is more prevalent in one than the other which is why it makes it less valid.

I remember there was a florida tourney awhile back w/ a discussion about pools but couldn't quite explain it like this. I full heartedly agree, thats an amazing interpretation

I mean I personally also feel that pools are a waste of time in general and would rather the tourney go along faster to the better matches whether that benefits me or not.

But I do understand where others are coming from. They want the opportunity to play top players for spending such a large wad of cash to come to a national. I've almost felt its more rewarding to win in bracket though, but thats just me.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Can i register for singles and if i decide to do doubles sign up later?

 

[DewDaDash]

Oh yeah I was wondering, I wanted to purchase the apex entrance to make it cheaper now but am unsure as to whether im going to this 100% or not since I haven't bought plane tix yet.

Like if plans fall through can I get a refund as long as its done with ample time in advance b4 the tourney starts?

lmao mink thats straight torture XD I did greyhound long time ago for pound 2 with ****** and from naples to like richmond virginia that was like a 27hr bus ride IIRC correctly. Have fun w/ that ride =P

 

[Alex Strife]

we will do refunds UP until a certain point. We have not announced when that point is. I will make sure we get the date ( We did discuss it but to be safe I will get an official date ).

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Strife do you have an answer for my question?

And Dew, we're taking 4 diff buses. LMAO

And i think my cousin (who lives in philly) is going to let me borrow her car from philly to drive to new brunswick. ****ing. Sick.

 

[Alex Strife]

Answer is yes mink...if you go thru the system it allows you to register for events at any time.


You can do stuff like

-reg for any event
-change the name of your partner
-add a partner
-etc

unlike most reg sites this one is a lot more detailed in what you can and cannot do.

 

[Keitaro]

I for one am not a believer in "getting my monies worth" in regards to how many tourney matches are played. If someone sucks that they could possibly go 0-2 in a huge bracket they shouldn't be complaining about a bracket reset or not. Almost none of the people who have posted recently would likely get 0-2ed though. I just think and pretty much know that round robin pools create more accurate results. It can be calculated mathematically.

What a player prefers is opinionated. I wouldn't mind much if I had to do an Evo style bracket. Would I think it was smart? No, but I wouldn't ***** much. We had to do something similar for MLG anyway and honestly it was kinda fun besides the funny seeding which made an already big bracket triple as faulty.

In the end, brackets will be reset after bracket pools so all players will start in winners. I was pretty sure that was what we came up with but I just had to make sure. I don't know how all the FGC games work but it will be like this for Smash at least.

It is sort of a compromise per say. Bracket pools are pretty much done for seeding purposes like a round robin would be done, except bracket pools will be much faster.

 

[Mahie]

There are quite a few advantages to double elim over round robin.

• Matches all serve a purpose : Sometimes in RR, you get to play matches that won't change anything to the results of a pool regardless of who wins and who loses. That will never happen in DE and is quite a waste of time.
• Faster : By removing pointless matches, you obviously save time.
• More spectator value : With so much on the line in the loser's bracket, especially between middle seeds, tense and exciting matches appear even from the start. It is a chance for both viewers to spectate something interesting really early, and for middle level players to get showcased on the stream.
• Harsher, but time saved can allow for an amateur bracket, thus giving beginners the same amount of matches they would have had in RR while still allowing them to play a top seed as they'll be seeded up against them right away in DE. (Assuming a pool of 4 players, the match-ups would be Top vs Bottom seed, and High vs Low)

 

[Alex Strife]

No round-robin also means no tie breakers which, depending on the TO, there are several ways to break and decide. I do not want the power to advance in anyone's hands but the players.

 

[GDX]

I'm fine with whatever you guys do as in it won't make me not attend. 110% attending this (there are some babies who won't attend cause its bracket pools hybrid)

lol I even sponsored two players for this of course im coming even if it was swiss or some random ****

Also Ryan just take the train from Philly to jersey. That's what I did for the apex at the inui hotel

 

[Alex Strife]

I doubt those people will not want to go still after all this time. I feel like we will break our records from last year with all the awesome stuff we have this year.

 

[GDX]

You'd be suprised how stubborn some people are . But this event will be godlike. Top 3 tourneys for another year in a row

 

[Keitaro]

Yeah I get you on that stance GDX and I appreciate your support towards Apex and ability to deal with change. inb4obamajoke

 

[Alex Strife]

they will miss out im trying to break records again

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Keith. How much is the train