An in-depth look at G&W vs Metaknight.

[Hylian]

This past weekend, I went to a huge tournament in texas. 128 entrants. The only person I lost to was Wobbles. Wobbles plays an INSANE metaknight in brawl. I only took 1 game from him, though the others were close. I felt like I was outplayed and that he knew more about my character then I knew about his.
So in an attempt to better myself, I want to know as much as possibile about metaknight. What approaches do they like to use? How do they punish GW? What ways do they commanly kill ect.

I don't really want you guys to answer just those questions, but rather give your thoughts and impressions on the match-up. What works for you? What bothers you the most? Ect.

Intellegent posts only please .

 

[frenchclops]

The thing I find most annoying about MK is that all his moves seem to hit just a little bit faster than GaW's, always putting you at the disadvantage. I usually try to go for high priority moves like the fair, bair or any of his tilts to get around this and into a quick air combo. Also, if you can catch him off guard, GaW's usmash kills him better than anything. Grab out of shield works nicely too as long as you don't let it get predictable. Above all, DON'T try to meet him in the air the same way as you meet other characters or he'll **** you.

 

[Cosmo!]

eh i dunno..

g&w grab game

mk is very good when he is not above people, with his dsmash, sh fair, dashgrab (if melee style dash dancing was in brawl mk would be so broken), upB, dtilt, even fsmash... so having him above you is a good idea

however he can also be dthrow dsmashed if they don't techroll. of course good players techroll out of it, (but perhaps not always). you could also sort of chase their techroll.

but dthrow wont help as much at low%, if you do get the dsmash off it will become more stale and if they techroll away you probably wont be doing a lot of damage. upthrow helps more at low% (especially on stages with platforms to hide under) to give you a good position to start dealing damage/being annoying, while at high% the dthrow dsmash, if they miss the tech leads to easy kills. don't rely on it, but its good to try

so i guess upthrow low%, dthrow high%.

all in all though you wont be getting a lot of grabs so this is mostly not too important

the real idea is that mk is annoying!! when he is under a platform waiting you out.

...

metaknight will kill you with dsmash (all over the place, out of shield) upB (both the initial bit and the final slash) fsmash (if they bait a turtle and walk out of range, then punish), and dair (off the stage edgeguarding, dair kills you off the side)

be aware of these 4 moves and think about when mk would use them and you will live a lot longer each stock

...

use retreating bair
use dair
dont let him dash grab you a lot
dont let him platform camp you

meh

 

[Gishnak]

While he recovers, using chef can make it more difficult for him. If he uses his forward+b, if the spacing is right, begin charging an usmash or fsmash. Spamming dtilt is the spacing is right is not usually a good idea against good MKs. Often times they can time a dash grab in between dtilts.

Always be wary of dsmash, for it comes out faster than all your moves on the ground save jab and grab (maybe dtilt too, not sure). But of course, if you miss with jab or grab, you will be hit by his dsmash. It's frustrating, but constantly flee so that you can approach with the turtle, or fish bowl if under him. He out speeds G&W in most areas, so spacing is key.

Also be wary of loop shuttle and glide attacks. As most MKs know, there is 0 (or practically no) lag after the glide attack if he hits the ground as he does it.

MK is such a frustrating character because he has so few weaknesses that most of the cast have. His dash grab is difficult to punish because if you spot dodge it it goes far enough behind you to punish it. Also, it has mad range. Most of his moves are almost impossible to punish in many situations. His moves come out fast, and have very little lag after, making it easier to chain the moves together. Also, his recovery is one of the best in the game, so it's practically ungimpable.

At least to me, it seems like MK and Snake are on another level above all the other characters in the game. The both have huge strengths and few weaknesses, and most characters have to change their play style dramatically to go toe to toe with them.

So, most of this information is probably known/obvious, but good luck. -.-

 

[Lotsa_Spaghetti]

I was in a tournament against a meta knight. It was the deciding match and we were both well into 100% with only 1 stock each. I attempted to dash grab him into a downthrow>downsmash combo and end the came, but the spot dodged and Downsmashed me before if could even sheild and lost.
To summarize, watch out for spotdodge>down smash. So fast and so Painful.

 

[Ruuku]

Yo Hylian, I haven't really read the other posts so in the following, you may find some stuff that others have already mentionedMetaknight definitely is one of the most popular character in my tournament scene, due to the fact that he is an easy character to pick up and is still excellent once the player gains experience. As a result, I have quite a bit of experience in that match up.

When it comes to Florida MK players, there only are certain moves you will see during the match and I'm going to explain in which situation they are likely to be used against G&W:

Neutral B - against a G&W that isn't cautious with retreating b.airs, MK can easily punish with that move if G&W whiffs or if most of the hits from the b.air don't hit his shield. This move can rack up damage fast and just like G&W's b.air, it can be spaced to that it is difficult to punish. It requires good analysis and timing but G&W can actually punish it with a dash shield canceled down smash after blocking it then following MK when he starts retreating.

Down smash - this move kills, has fast recovery, good range, and good priority. MK will use it very often to punish or kill. It can also be used to force his opponent to spot dodge then get an almost free grab. When I face this move I usually don't try to punish it with anything other than a full hop fast fall d.air.

up B - this ridiculous move can destroy G&W as it can kill at low percentages with its high knock back power. To add some safety to the move, MK can and will follow up with a landing lag less glide attack which also is a kill move. If both attack are dodged or blocked, MK can follow up with neutral B, down smash, or another up B. It actually is possible for G&W to block the up B then counter attack with a SH n.air before MK goes into glide. Otherwise it also is possible to escape the glide attack and in turn the follow up, by dashing being MK right after the up B.

d.air - MK will use this move to edge guard, pressure, or space his opponent. He also may use it with a short hop out of shield to punish. As far as edge guard goes, it seems that G&W's up B usually beats it. For that reason I usually wait until G&W is pretty low before doing the up B. That way I was a chance to hit MK into the stage.

f.air - MK will use to to edge guard as much as d.air. It will also be used in a Wall of Pain fashion to keep G&W away. G&W's b.air usually holds its own against it but I've encountered situations in which MK's f.air beat G&W's b.air.

f.tilt/ d.tilt - MK will often use it following a f.air or d.air. both come out fast and f.tilt can go into a second hit which sends the opponent airborne on hit. I haven't tested this but G&W's d.tilt may be important in this situation.

Here's my general strategy against MK:

First of all, if I ever am 6-7 characters length away from MK, I start using neutral B. A lot MK player like to do dash attacks or running grabs from that distance. When it comes to approach, I pretty much only use retreating b.airs on block, then go into jab->grab/ jab combo->d.tilt. If MK whiffs an aerial, I tend to punish with a f.air. If the b.air hits, I usually go into another b.air because MK sometimes is able to stop a n.air with his f.air. If I want to successfully lend a n.air, I have to fast fall right after the b.air then dash under MK into a short hop n.air, in order to be safer.

As for edge guard neutral B is good to force MK to recover where you want him to. I like using f.air and up B to edge guard. But before anything else, down smash ***** MK. It comes out fast, kills early, and I often am able to punish some of MK's aerials if I can spot dodge them. I also like to dash at MK and short hop air dodge through him then go into down smash, grab, or stutter step side smash.

I hope any of this helped. This actually is one of those match ups in which I prefer using Snake or ROB.

 

[xYz]

I actually love the MK VS GW matchup. FL is all about MK, we have about over 20 MK mains lol. But I play the one that placest the highest, which is Rx- at the moment.

all i can say is that Fsmash ***** MK at low %... make sure its not weak, when you use it.
dthrow to dsmash
spaced out bairs.
try to read MK off stage for a nice fair. ( but, make sure you dont get staged spike, by MK up B.)
power shield MK's landing upb slash, for a nice dthrow, to either A.) Downsmash B.) techchase to a upsmash, or try to get a 9Hammer.

GW is a good counter for MK.

 

[Hylian]

Thanks for the great reply Rukuu!!

 

[napZzz]

mk...so annoying..the only thing I can say is that when he gets the tornado going you gotta key him from above. Cosmo is right, mk does bad above you because he has nothing to really do up there. Watch out for his grabs though, he often will dash in for a grab. Try and watch out for the up b and the shuttle loop, and punish them accordingly.

 

[blinkycc13]

Dsmash absolutely annihilates MK. It's very capable of killing before 90% if you sweetspot it. I've also found dair very useful if I'm getting stuck in the air. It cuts through MK's aerials pretty well.

 

[Ornj]

lol @ speghetti

yah......

 

[Mr. Game and Penguin]

Yes, MK is all about horizontal domination. Being either above him or below him is very effective against dealing with him, so in facing him, up-b, dair, uair, and nair are your best friends, and all of them have sufficient speed and little ending/start-up lag, so they can even out the disadvantages. Hope this helped.

 

[Lovage 805]

i don't feel like doing a large write up but:
uthrow at lower percents
save smashes till killing percents
mindgame
keep him above you, take what you can get
don't get shuttle loop'd thats how he will kill you 80% of the time
dthrow -> chase usmash at 50

 

[Mr. Escalator]

****it.
I was going to write a decent sized summary, like with Ike a while back, but I'm pretty tired after updating Oil Panic!

Some things you should maybe try:

Dash attack stage spikes MK a LOT when they do the shuttle loop near the edge. It bullies through the attack and hits him against the stage. I'm not sure if it has spiking potential on most stages, but it does work on Battlefield, and I wouldnt be surprised if it worked on Final Destination.

But yeah. The dash attack, aside from gimping, can slip up some people depending how they DI. If they actively hold back when hit, they're placed ahead of you for a second Dash. If they hold the other way or do nothing, they're placed behind you ready for another dash attack. This doesnt work too much after the first few times, as they expect it. I don't claim to be a high level player, but maybe this works there too.

Still on the subject, the dash attack, the dsmash, and the dair beats his Mach Whorenado. Dsmash is very nice for killing them, but realistically, it wont happen much. Mach Tornado is used for getting some damage on your opponent, so they try to avoid using it when you can react to it. Dash attack has worked for me, but the dair has some woogy timing.

Setting him up above you is a must in this battle. You cant do much sideways, except for perhaps Dtilt and Turtle, so you're going to be most effective under him. Nair his ***, UpB when you can, and Uair stall him at every point.

Uair is pretty sweet when they go for the glide attack. Poof poof them up as they make their steep descent, and they're up in the air again, IN FREE FALL. This means you can have your way with them.

Try to airdodge out of any momentum he gains on you, as you dont want to eat too many attacks, and Dair to avoid getting caught up above him. Don't be predictable, by any means, but also do what you must to get out.

You have a projectile which will force him to act. Neutral B? Hammers/Dash. Fly above? Now he's above you. Sweet. Roll? Dtilt, Ftilt, Grab, or smash. He might be fast enough to dash grab past you're food stuffs, but Im unsure. If so, then he's predictable here.

So yeah. Sorry I'm barely touching on some things. I just don't feel like going in depth about it all. Hopefully theres at least one thing I said that can help you.

Good Luck Hylian!

 

[A2ZOMG]

Keep the Dash attack handy. It will save your *** against so many Tornados. IIRC It's one of few attacks that beats it.

Didn't someone say that judgement also beats Tornado? Eh...

 

[Mr. Escalator]

I honestly wouldnt be surprised ifsome of the stronger hammers destroyed the tornado, but I personally would be doing this x__X

 

[Ruuku]

Thanks for the great reply Rukuu!!

That's the least I can do after getting some good entertainment from your old Melee videos.

 

[omegablackmage]

usually when mk players get desperate they like to tornado, alot. this move seems really annoying at first, but you just need to learn the timings for how to punish it. First, learn how many hits there are to it, as this will allow you to chase them after the tornado is done, say if they are trying to punish your sheild and they land next to you, with good timing you can dsmash out of this. If you see it coming from a ways away, then as mentioned, dair works wonders.

bair seems pretty consistent in pushing through almost all of mk's approaches. i rarely see it lose in the priority game vs mk, so use it alot, and although the move seems lame after a while, you will get good openings from it. don't be afraid to use it alot is all im saying if its the only opening you have.

fsmash does work wonders. mk players love to dash at you, either with grabs or dash attacks, so if you see this coming (or fake an opening for a grab) then just toss a fsmash out there. from when the hitbox is gone and when you can act again, there isn't a lot of time, so they would have a hard time punishing you for this.

against the up b the dair works very often say if your above him and he's trying to combo you, it usually cuts through. i didn't know about the dash attack trick though, escalator. i'll have to try that out. if that does work though, then thats another great way to edgeguard mk.

don't be afraid to chase very far off the stage for low percent kills with fairs and up b's.

learn how to airdodge/di the forward throw-forward air combo, should save some damage.

dtilt and up air are your friends. two moves that i see are widely underused by almost every gw player. just remember that these moves are almost unpunishable and will help to put your opponent (especially mk players) in awkward situations.

of course killing upward is a very good idea, but not always easy vs mk's i've found. the dthrow is nice as mentioned if you think they won't tech, otherwise chase with upsmashes (these work the best ive found simply because they are easy to cancel out of the run, walk to dsmash is pretty hard to pull off, especially against long rollers)

where are the results for this tournament, hylian? i couldn't find them.

also, i like this idea, and there seems to be a lot of positive constructive inputs here in this thread. how would you guys feel about doing a new character every week like the back room does to discuss how gw does vs that character?

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Lol, me and Neb were just talking about it in both the Ganny thread, and the Marth one. With all the good quality info we can provide, this would be a great help!

I was planning on doing it, but If you had a similar interest, it's probably better if you make the thread. The Oil Panic guide is getting bigger, and I'm trying to update that as much as I can, and Im behind in that even. A thread citing quotes and possible strategies would just be a lot more work.

So if you want to, OBM, that'd be awesome!

http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=169415

I really like how the R.O.B. forums did it ;P

I've pulled off the dash attack gimp twice consecutively. He shuttle Looped, got hit off of the right bottom of Battlefield, he used his remaining jumps and Shuttle Looped once more, and I dash attacked that. He got spiked down, and his shuttle loop wouldnt make it back up without any of his jumps.

 

[Lotsa_Spaghetti]

lol @ speghetti

yah......

It's You! lol. You were the very meta knight who did that to me! If I had just gotten that grab you might not have gone on to the finals and won the Boonfest! It could have been me! Oh well. Next time

 

[IronSquirrel891]

meta is pretty annoying, yeah.

im pretty sure i could puff him into oblivion with the trumpet at a high enough percentage.
i gotta work on my f-smash counter to his dash though.

 

[cutter]

I can also help with the G&W match up thread as well.

Learn to use Dtilt and Dash attack well against MK. I also like to do other approaches to keep MK on his toes other than Bair and Dair since he will likely anticipate those. Make sure you also utilize Uair as well so you can slow down any gliding/aerial approaches.

 

[Neb]

I can also help with the G&W match up thread as well.

Learn to use Dtilt and Dash attack well against MK. I also like to do other approaches to keep MK on his toes other than Bair and Dair since he will likely anticipate those. Make sure you also utilize Uair as well so you can slow down any gliding/aerial approaches.

Sounds like your game is a lot like mine. Neato...lol.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

how is meta bad when hes above people he has an air dodge right? a Dair?


Honestly meta is a complete GW counter. i dont think there will be a better counter to GW at the end of brawl.

really the only way to beat a GOOD meta knight, is to have better mind games than him. Ive never beat Vidjos meta knight. and im sure vidjo is 10X beter than wobbles will ever will be. and im not talking about with meta knight, im talking about smash itself.

You wanna beat Wobbles, work on your mind games or do what i do to meta knights. Ditto them.

 

[napZzz]

Some of you who have'nt played a good mk are going to have to throw away half of your guides. alot of things that were said wont work. Like NoJ said the best thing to do is to ditto or play a different character.

 

[PKPower]

Don't forget that if you play as teal GW it's harder to tell if your Oil Panic is charged and you cannot tell if the GW player is dodging. More of a mind game to play on people.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

how is meta bad when hes above people he has an air dodge right? a Dair?

I'm not an idiot. I know any MK worth his salt can perform an airdodge or input a Dair, so I'm not saying he's helpless like Snake when he's above you. The reason I mentioned setting him in the air is because you have better options when he's above you then when he's to your side. You can Uair him, which I did see you do a good amount, Nair him, upB, Utilt, or just react to how he gets down. He has so many god **** options when he's to the left or right that it's hard to challenge him here.

I've played and lost to good MK's. I'm not new to facing them.
I'm just giving my input.

Don't forget that if you play as teal GW it's harder to tell if your Oil Panic is charged and you cannot tell if the GW player is dodging. More of a mind game to play on people.

Why the hell is this relevant to G&W vs MK? You'll never get it fulled in this match unless you're playing on Corneria, which is a bad choice against Meta Knight.

 

[Neb]

Don't forget that if you play as teal GW it's harder to tell if your Oil Panic is charged and you cannot tell if the GW player is dodging. More of a mind game to play on people.

Lol...*cough*... nvm, just nvm, haha.

 

[IronSquirrel891]

Why the hell is this relevant to G&W vs MK? You'll never get it fulled in this match unless you're playing on Corneria, which is a bad choice against Meta Knight.

gotta love meta knights invisible energy based moves!
haha

 

[Mr. Escalator]

MACH PLAAAAAASMA TORNADO!!!!

Just bucket the sucka.

 

[Neb]

Lol, don't pick on him too much, xD.

 

[Doggalina]

If only the tornado was energy based. Then my bucket and I could have some great fun.

 

[Cosmo!]

personally i think xYz is nuts for considering g&w a MK counter

i also think NoJ is nuts for not seeing the value of putting MK above you

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Don't forget that if you play as teal GW it's harder to tell if your Oil Panic is charged and you cannot tell if the GW player is dodging. More of a mind game to play on people.

.................... okokok ill go light

hes talking about improving your mind games which is somthing i posted heh so ill give him credit for trying

BUT


who the **** isnt gonna know your buckets full? only way i could see it is on teams and maybe your partner didnt see it, but like thats why you TALK to your partner during the matches, if you dont communicate your team is probably bad. like if you didnt tell your partner you just filled the most powerful attack in the game, while hes being combod on the other side of the level, your a bad teamate.

secondly if you cant tell when somones dodging your probably a scrub : )))))))))))) but ill definatly take those into consideration i just wanted to say what everyone else did im sure LOL

 

[napZzz]

I'm not an idiot. I know any MK worth his salt can perform an airdodge or input a Dair, so I'm not saying he's helpless like Snake when he's above you. The reason I mentioned setting him in the air is because you have better options when he's above you then when he's to your side. You can Uair him, which I did see you do a good amount, Nair him, upB, Utilt, or just react to how he gets down. He has so many god **** options when he's to the left or right that it's hard to challenge him here.

why would you try the utilt? and uair stalling does'nt do too much against mk.

 

[Mr. Escalator]

Utilt is still a possibility. I personally almost never use the utilt, but for those who do, this is a decent-ish way to juggle someone above you. It's an option.

Uair stalling works fine against pretty much everyone. MK isnt an exception. His horizontal movement in the air is actually pretty poor, so he falls victim to this. Plus, Uairing is awesome against glide attacking MK's. His is the best glide attack, so they like to use it when they can, Uair has the potential to turn his glide into a free fall.

Its not really my problem if you STILL don't see the merit in Uair Stalling :S

 

[Needle of Juntah]

why would you try the utilt? and uair stalling does'nt do too much against mk.

Unfortunatly mr Nappy




you are correct.

btw im TRYING to be in florida next month for all those tournaments if anyone from florida could gimme a PM ima need help when i get there figureing out locations n such. im not as big a douche IRL as i am on smashboards

 

[napZzz]

Its not really my problem if you STILL don't see the merit in Uair Stalling :S

I never said I did'nt, I just dont prefer it most of the time. Whens someone is above me I usually parachute which is easier hits most of the time and lets me come back down with something still. But I only find this useful as maybe an occasional thing to kind of stop someones flow. If someone thinks they have got you going and they start to get aggresive uair stalling could throw them off and let you get a hit, or at least temporarily stop whats coming at you. Mk can shuttle loop from above you to get away faster and still glide and attack or whatever after that. What I'm trying to say is that it's not effective enough that you should base a whole strategy around just uair stalling meta knight.

 

[Hylian]

how is meta bad when hes above people he has an air dodge right? a Dair?


Honestly meta is a complete GW counter. i dont think there will be a better counter to GW at the end of brawl.

really the only way to beat a GOOD meta knight, is to have better mind games than him. Ive never beat Vidjos meta knight. and im sure vidjo is 10X beter than wobbles will ever will be. and im not talking about with meta knight, im talking about smash itself.

You wanna beat Wobbles, work on your mind games or do what i do to meta knights. Ditto them.

I'm pretty sure you don't really have any idea what you are talking about, and just post things to make yourself look good.

This post didn't add ANYTHING to the discussion. Stop trolling, or learn how to post.

 

[Needle of Juntah]

Hylian your a scrub, go play ICs noob.