Alright guys, we've got **** to do

[Tin Man]

...You guys seriously didn't know how to buffer?

Exactly what I've been thinking Espy I just didn't wanna sound like a **** XD

I always knew about buffering (Oli's basic dthrow chains should be buffered if done properly) and I buffered a few things in my game, but I never thought to use it to the extent that Brood has, you know? Never thought of it as a game changing aspect.

^^ This.

Even though I knew buffering stuff existed, and even taking everything Brood has done into consideration, my issue lies in the fact that it seems like its only reasonable to buffer something if its a guaranteed thing (such as a true combo). The only other reason to buffer something would be if you wanted to cover options as fast as possible (like grounded side B to Fsmash). Due to the nature of brawl not being a very combo heavy game, the "option covering" use of buffering seems to be more legitimate, but outside of that, why would anything else need to be buffered. reaction is also a heavy part of this game. Olimar is one of the few characters with true comboes yes, so buffering his comboes would really help, and then of course covering options, but that's pretty much as far as it goes. I find something like learning exploring Olimars underused moves (Dtilt, Ftilt, Dash attack) more useful. Apparently Dtilt beats G&W's Dair, that's hella useful info to implement. Uses of the reverse Usmash is also great. Dsmashing to get pikmin faster is extremely helpful also. I'm basically saying that buffering is extremely helpful, but it is not the only thing we have to learn.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Dabuz, I just checked the frame data for Up Air's hitboxes like you requested.

Up Air comes out on Frame eight and hits on frames 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. Each of the hitboxes only last one frame each, but there's seven of them.

 

[-Vocal-]

Dabuz, I just checked the frame data for Up Air's hitboxes like you requested.

Up Air comes out on Frame eight and hits on frames 8, 10, 12, 14, 16, 18, and 20. Each of the hitboxes only last one frame each, but there's seven of them.

Do you happen to know how much cooldown lag there is afterwards?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

The move lasts 34 frames, so there's 14 frames of cool down. The thing about the hitbox was that it was something that I didn't originally get the frame data for. I didn't gather how much all of our hitboxes last, and I should have. Working on our frame data now, by the way.

 

[Jane]

Olimar social group sounds amazing. ill do everything and anything i can to help. Im glad to see things really picking up now

Also, im excited to watch the brood sets, i cant atm since im still on vacation, but ohhhh man i cant wait :D

 

[Asa]

I thought brood could've utilized whistle more , he seemed to be awkward in the air

but that's just me

 

[-Vocal-]

I thought brood could've utilized whistle more , he seemed to be awkward in the air

but that's just me

I was thinking it too. I don't know why he chooses not to whistle as much, honestly.

Maybe he prefers to not take the damage.

Maybe he gets punished for trying to whistle things in the Japanese smash scene.

Who knows. I was really wondering about it though

 

[Dnyce]

broods playstyle summarized:

INTERCEPT EVERY ATTACK AND NEVER LEAVE LEAVE AN OPENING BY JUMPING OR SOMETHING DUMB, but seriously, he really does make a lot of use with that buffer, punishing things in ways i've never seen, he also never uses airdodge, roll, or spotdodge ever, all he does is shield and do buffered attacks the moment something hits his shield, also, very little shorthop side b

Yeah, and dabuz has been saying this is every olimar's problem for at least a month now.

no, its an even matchup, brood is just amazing

No, it's a good match-up for Olimar. Every good oli knows how free @lly is. M2k was a whole different league.

Two things that have stuck on me were his uses of Usmash OoS.

It's not even buffering, it's a JC Usmash OoS. Logic told us about it at Columbus, but explained it poorely.... and the logic blew my mind with a demonstration at apex, and I saw brood doing it a lot too.

Could anyone tell me how to boost pivot grab?

the same way you dacus, but instead of up smash you pivot grab.

I always knew about buffering (Oli's basic dthrow chains should be buffered if done properly) and I buffered a few things in my game, but I never thought to use it to the extent that Brood has, you know? Never thought of it as a game changing aspect.

Same with me about march 2009. Discovered pluck canceling in december 08, and then saw how the japanese applied it above and beyond me in march and it was crazy.

 

[-Vocal-]

Gimme some credit - I know how to do a Usmash OoS! I had never thought of using it in the ways, times, and places that Brood did it.

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

I'll do what I can to help, need to get my pc back(soon) hate posting off my phone, anyways I'm not the best but I figure any support is better than non <3 oli boards and hilt I'd like to discuss some stuff at ISA this week it we can.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Definitely Squid, lol. You need to start posting in the boards more, too :D

 

[Dnyce]

Gimme some credit - I know how to do a Usmash OoS! I had never thought of using it in the ways, times, and places that Brood did it.

it's a JC Usmash OoS.

Maybe I need to spell it out.

Jump
Canceled
Up Smash
Out of
Shield

If you're not jump canceling to negate the 7 frames of shield drop lag, you're doing it wrong... VERY wrong.

 

[Jane]

Hahahah fino i cant believe you didnt know xD

 

[Weruop]

JC US OOS is too good :O

with tap off, i just shield and hold up ( shields and titls it up ) then i just hit Y>A really quickly.
before i didnt know i could be holdin up the whole time so i was trying to Y>A+up

been doing it for like a week now. its awesome

i hope dabuz clarifies his post lol

 

[Dnyce]

Hahahah fino i cant believe you didnt know xD

been doing it for like a week now. its awesome

This pretty much describes every other not-logic olimar in america.

If you guys knew about it, why the **** have we been *****ing about every non-falco MU for the past 2.5 years? Seriously... life just became a lot easier.

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

Definitely Squid, lol. You need to start posting in the boards more, too :D

For sure when my pc is fixed this week I'll be all over here till then playing the lurking game via my phone

 

[Jane]

Well, when someone says oos, i thought the general consensus was that youre cancelling the shield lag with something. Lol

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Alright guys I just tested the frame data and umm...

Up Smashing Sanke OOS between his jab 1 and jab 2 is completely legit.

Yeah.

 

[-Vocal-]

Maybe I need to spell it out.

Jump
Canceled
Up Smash
Out of
Shield

If you're not jump canceling to negate the 7 frames of shield drop lag, you're doing it wrong... VERY wrong.

Fino, I was jump canceling it. I knew how to Usmash OoS, ok?

NEwho

Sooooooooooooo

I just now discoverd that Instant Return is 20x easier with tap jump off. I hate being late to parties >=/

Something else I decided to look into: Echo mentioned earlier that Brood did a pivot Fsmash, and that sounded hella good so I decided to experiment with it. As it turns out, there is no special way to cancel a pivot, but it actually ends a lot earlier than I thought. To begin you release the control stick to stop dashing. Then, if you C-stick the other direction too soon you just do a pivot, but if you wait a tiny fraction of a second for Oli's heels to slide, you can then Fsmash. It's really fast - try and tell me if you think it could have good use.

As for BUFFER related topics, I haven't played around with things for very long, but I HAVE gotten one idea:

Dtilt>Buffered Usmash/Hyphen Usmash

The timing on the Hyphen is tricky, but it's a 10 frame window so that's to be expected ^_^ I think this might be a true combo on several weights - it seems to work on middle weights at mid percent (think 40%) while it would probably work for longer on others. I don't have someone here to test DI with me, so someone else trying this with someone else attempting to DI out of it would be appreciated

edit: HOLY HELL HILT, ARE YOU FOR REAL!? That's insane man, Usmash OoS is SOOOOOO good!

@Fino: I complain because I'm not an amazing player yet

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure you have a bit of room for error too, a few frames, I'm not sure how many though. And if he stalls it out for another ftilt 1 we obviously have more of a window. This is ****ing incredible. Next time I have someone to test stuff with, I'm going to go through attacks and figure out just what usmash oos ****s up. Right now I'm going to settle with "everything".

 

[-Vocal-]

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure you have a bit of room for error too, a few frames, I'm not sure how many though. And if he stalls it out for another ftilt 1 we obviously have more of a window. This is ****ing incredible. Next time I have someone to test stuff with, I'm going to go through attacks and figure out just what usmash oos ****s up. Right now I'm going to settle with "everything".

LMAO

People are gonna start calling Olimar broken if we abuse this enough. AND I WANT THEM TO

 

[Weruop]

what is instant return?

 

[Tin Man]

JC US OOS is too good :O

with tap off, i just shield and hold up ( shields and titls it up ) then i just hit Y>A really quickly.
before i didnt know i could be holdin up the whole time so i was trying to Y>A+up

been doing it for like a week now. its awesome

i hope dabuz clarifies his post lol

Would this also work if I had jump set to shoulder button and then used the Cstick instead of A+up (I have tap jump on see, but my Z is set to jump so yeh)

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure you have a bit of room for error too, a few frames, I'm not sure how many though. And if he stalls it out for another ftilt 1 we obviously have more of a window. This is ****ing incredible. Next time I have someone to test stuff with, I'm going to go through attacks and figure out just what usmash oos ****s up. Right now I'm going to settle with "everything".

Not Tornado . But this explains what happens when brood Shields a Glide attack and is practically immune to the follow up because of JC Usmash OoS

I just now discoverd that Instant Return is 20x easier with tap jump off. I hate being late to parties >=/

whats instant return :o?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

what is instant return?

whats instant return :o?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOUHNl8ZWz0

 

[Weruop]

tinman, what are ur edited controls and which buttons are u thinking of pressing in order to do jc us oos?

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Yeah Tin Man, that'll work.

 

[Tin Man]

L is Shield
R is Attack
Z is Jump
A is Attack
B is Special
Y is Jump
X is Grab
C stick is Smash
Control pad is Taunts

 

[Weruop]

ooh that. thx hilt :3

 

[-Vocal-]

Instant Return "Guide"

How haven't you two known this? This was before my time so I assumed everyone had already learned it and chosen not to implement it into their game, which led me to think it wasn't very important. However, Brood used it several times during Apex so I'm looking into it again.

Now

Dtilt is the new Dthrow. Seriously. It combos into EVERYTHING that Dthrow does at low percents (plus a bonus), except it combos into them at mid percents. Fair and Usmash are obviously the most useful here, and (the bonus) I think it may even true combo into a buffered jump > Uair. The determining factor here is how much hitstun it has; I don't think DI matters too much, just like it doesn't for low percentage Dthrow.

Hilt, care to test the hitstun on Dtilt or show me how to do it? This could open a new branch of damage racking for us

I really hope this isn't something that's been discussed before my time and discarded, because that's happened to me so many times now

 

[Tin Man]

Yeah, I always knew instant return, never implemented it into my game tho, never thought of it as useful, but i see how it can be a decent mind trick, i'll use it more often for ledge get up options. The thing about Dtilt is that if its blocked, its easily punishable, reading air dodges with Dtilti seems like a fine idea.

kk, good night yall

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

Yeah, and I'm pretty sure you have a bit of room for error too, a few frames, I'm not sure how many though. And if he stalls it out for another ftilt 1 we obviously have more of a window. This is ****ing incredible. Next time I have someone to test stuff with, I'm going to go through attacks and figure out just what usmash oos ****s up. Right now I'm going to settle with "everything".

We can test stuff this Saturday

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Instant tethering was mentioned and not really talked about much. Llumys posted the video and didn't really elaborate on it other than making one post a week later saying how he did it, very vaguely, though. So I'm not surprised people don't know it or know how to use it. It's REALLY useful though, I do it whenever I think to. It's risky at times though, but it's another option for us.

I'm pretty sure Dtilt doesn't have enough hitstun to legitimately combo into much of anything, but I'll test the frame data tomorrow. Dtilt will be a bit hard for me to test because it has two hitboxes, and one of them doesn't connect at times (the antenna). And in order for me to test the helmet hitbox at every percent, I'll need to DI it weird so that the antenna doesn't hit afterwards, lol. But I'll put it at the top of my priority list for either tomorrow.

Edit: That would be great Squid :D I'm sure we'll have the time too since I won't be TO'ing as much as I was at SiiS, haha.

 

[-Vocal-]

Instant tethering was mentioned and not really talked about much. Llumys posted the video and didn't really elaborate on it other than making one post a week later saying how he did it, very vaguely, though. So I'm not surprised people don't know it or know how to use it. It's REALLY useful though, I do it whenever I think to. It's risky at times though, but it's another option for us.

I'm pretty sure Dtilt doesn't have enough hitstun to legitimately combo into much of anything, but I'll test the frame data tomorrow. Dtilt will be a bit hard for me to test because it has two hitboxes, and one of them doesn't connect at times (the antenna). And in order for me to test the helmet hitbox at every percent, I'll need to DI it weird so that the antenna doesn't hit afterwards, lol. But I'll put it at the top of my priority list for either tomorrow.

Edit: That would be great Squid :D I'm sure we'll have the time too since I won't be TO'ing as much as I was at SiiS, haha.

Thanks And if nothing else, at least it's another option - even if it doesn't true combo into anything it could still be pretty useful.

 

[DtJ SquidBurrMoneyBurr]

@hilt, that hair club for men yah?

 

[-Vocal-]

T_T I still don't know what this hair club is.

NEwho

Dsmash > Buffered Pivot Grab

I don't know if I already mentioned this, but I noticed that Brood did this one a lot. Probably to punish anyone who tries to punish his Dsmashes, or even as a bait. Not much to say, really, just a useful idea to keep in mind.

 

[DtJ Hilt]

Down Tilt is an incredible move, I've been using it like crazy lately.

Oh! Oh oh oh oh! One more thing before I go to bed! This is mainly to Dabuz (name search this), but important for everyone else too. Jab is safe on hit, I just tested it today. However, it's a bit weird. Like Down Tilt, Jab1 has two separate hitboxes. Olimar's helmet and the antenna. The helmet itself has enough hitstun to combo into Jab2, however the antenna barely has any hitstun at all (if any), and cancels the hitstun that the helmet caused! So this is why it was thought to not be safe on hit.

However, Jab also has IASA frames, meaning that during a certain point of the attack, you're able to cancel the Jab1 into Jab2 and skip the lag that would have been on the Jab1. Most jabs have this option. But! If you do this, it goes into Jab 2 before the antenna hitbox connects! Meaning that the hitstun is not canceled and the attack will combo into Jab2. It can be a bit difficult to do, but you'll want to practice it. It does, however, decrease the damage output, because the antenna deals 2 damage. And I'm not sure, but if you input the jab commands separately, they may count as two separate moves, similar to MK's ftilt. Meaning that the second hit would be one move stale, but it would also refresh two moves on hit. I'm not sure about this though, and I have a bit of testing to do on Jab, considering that I don't know how big the IASA window is either. I'll take care of that tomorrow after I check out dtilt.

 

[-Vocal-]

Down Tilt is an incredible move, I've been using it like crazy lately.

Oh! Oh oh oh oh! One more thing before I go to bed! This is mainly to Dabuz (name search this), but important for everyone else too. Jab is safe on hit, I just tested it today. However, it's a bit weird. Like Down Tilt, Jab1 has two separate hitboxes. Olimar's helmet and the antenna. The helmet itself has enough hitstun to combo into Jab2, however the antenna barely has any hitstun at all (if any), and cancels the hitstun that the helmet caused! So this is why it was thought to not be safe on hit.

However, Jab also has IASA frames, meaning that during a certain point of the attack, you're able to cancel the Jab1 into Jab2 and skip the lag that would have been on the Jab1. Most jabs have this option. But! If you do this, it goes into Jab 2 before the antenna hitbox connects! Meaning that the hitstun is not canceled and the attack will combo into Jab2. It can be a bit difficult to do, but you'll want to practice it. It does, however, decrease the damage output, because the antenna deals 2 damage. And I'm not sure, but if you input the jab commands separately, they may count as two separate moves, similar to MK's ftilt. Meaning that the second hit would be one move stale, but it would also refresh two moves on hit. I'm not sure about this though, and I have a bit of testing to do on Jab, considering that I don't know how big the IASA window is either. I'll take care of that tomorrow after I check out dtilt.

Yea, dtilt is awesome

And who were you doing this jab testing on? I've been messing with it for like ten minutes now against Mario and I just cannot consistently keep the antenna from hitting. The only way I've achieved this is with extremely precise spacing; I can't do it at all if I'm standing right next to him

 

[DtJ Hilt]

I did it on MK and Snake. You have to make sure you hit A again almost immediately after the first hit connects. It's a bit difficult, and there's a bit of a rhythm to it. I think it was easier for me when I was close to the opponent. I know for a fact it's legit though, haha

Alright, bed time.

 

[RichBrown]

Hilt, does that mean that there's no way people can powershield our jab if done right? Because my jab ALWAYS gets powershielded =(

Also, I wanna bring something else to everyone's attention regarding getting back from the ledge

Instant return is great, but there's also something really simple

So you know how we can stall on the ledge and Uair a bunch n stuff?

Well what I just started doing is doing the uair but then autocanceling it perfectly onto the stage and into a grab

It's really effective because most of the time you'll have the room because people don't wanna get hit by Uair

That's a concept a learned a while back: You don't have to force yourself back onto the stage.

This is just another tool to help us get back.

Also, in regards to buffering: I'm pretty sure I buffer just about, if not everything I do. I've been beating up lvl 3s and I realized that any time I'm not landing an attack I airdodge into the ground, and I do a lot of things out of sideB myself. So I'm not gonna concern myself personally too much with buffers, though I'm gonna keep my ears open in case there's something I'm missing.

Also... I think Marth-Oli might be even.

Oh and Usmash OoS is amazing and I feel like such a noob that I haven't been using it sooner. Personal thanks to Fino for calling me to tell me about how amazing Usmash OoS is XD

I was playing m!keh@ze yesterday and at times I'd just walk up to him and shield, and he'd fair my shield, and I scored an easy KO with Usmash OoS. As of now I still have to consciously think about using the move, but I'm working on making it natural. I can't wait to see just how many situations this move is usable under...

 

[-Vocal-]

Hilt, does that mean that there's no way people can powershield our jab if done right? Because my jab ALWAYS gets powershielded =(

Also, I wanna bring something else to everyone's attention regarding getting back from the ledge

Instant return is great, but there's also something really simple

So you know how we can stall on the ledge and Uair a bunch n stuff?

Well what I just started doing is doing the uair but then autocanceling it perfectly onto the stage and into a grab

It's really effective because most of the time you'll have the room because people don't wanna get hit by Uair

That's a concept a learned a while back: You don't have to force yourself back onto the stage.

This is just another tool to help us get back.

Also, in regards to buffering: I'm pretty sure I buffer just about, if not everything I do. I've been beating up lvl 3s and I realized that any time I'm not landing an attack I airdodge into the ground, and I do a lot of things out of sideB myself. So I'm not gonna concern myself personally too much with buffers, though I'm gonna keep my ears open in case there's something I'm missing.

Also... I think Marth-Oli might be even.

Oh and Usmash OoS is amazing and I feel like such a noob that I haven't been using it sooner. Personal thanks to Fino for calling me to tell me about how amazing Usmash OoS is XD

I was playing m!keh@ze yesterday and at times I'd just walk up to him and shield, and he'd fair my shield, and I scored an easy KO with Usmash OoS. As of now I still have to consciously think about using the move, but I'm working on making it natural. I can't wait to see just how many situations this move is usable under...

That Uair tip could prove useful, good thinking

As for jab, I think it's very character dependent. What I mean by this is that different characters react differently to Jab 1, which affects how they react to the antenna (1a) and Jab 2. From what I can tell, on the majority of characters, if you're going to be close enough to link 1 and 2, 1a will hit in the middle of them. I tried this out several times against Falco (and others) and could not keep 1a from hitting while connecting with 2.

HOWEVER, character specific hit stun animations can affect whether or not a character is hit by 1a or 2. For example, Snake's somehow places his hurtbox away from 1a but still in range for 2. Bowser's can place him out of the range of both. For me at least, it's also been very spacing reliant; I can't seem to get it to land on anyone if I'm right next to him/her.

I don't think I'm timing my button presses wrong either. I tried varying speeds, as well as mashing the button as quickly as possible, but none of them seemed to get 2 out before 1a.

So, at least as far as I can tell, it will only work on certain characters and only with finicky spacing. I'd love to be proven wrong though; and unblockable jab would help a lot ^_^