All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[mood4food77]

peach's fair pretty much sucks (no offense, but i see my friend overuse this move...then i make him pay for using it)

falcon's nair is his base for juggling, most of his juggles have the nair in it

ganon is a killing machine, he kills with his standing A too, we all know that, but he would become much worse with out it

i wonder what falco would be without his SHL...

fox really can't get in without his nair, he'll have to figure out another way of getting to his opponent since he has lost his best approach

ness is still able to approach without his fair, he can kill without using his bair, and he can still continue juggles without his uair, yes they can to, but they'll have to completely change the way they do it, falcon couldn't rush in and use his knee, he'll get grabbed or something, same with fox, falco will have a really hard time going in without his SHL, peach's best aerial is gone, also one of her kill moves goes too, only her bair is as reliable, she can't trust the other ones, ganon ehh, i'll give you that one, he'll still be good

ness wouldn't have to completely alter his game, those characters would, ganon's throw wouldn't be as effective (especially uthrow), etc, i know where you guys are getting at, but i still feel ness has a better air game, even though he's a crappy character, just overall, his airgame is better than everyone elses, he may not stand out on top in a single category, but overall, he's the best

uhh, ness has the strongest throw in teh game, you're pretty much dead at 120%, even with DI, and all throws (except jiggs fthrow) have weird DI frames, and are sometimes "unDIable" meaning that DI won't save you there, it does kill

without DI, it kills mario at 92% on FD from as far out as he can go, so it's a pretty trust kill move i would think

 

[Magus420]

do you consider ganon's fsmash a quality kill move as well?

I do.

 

[$PITE]

I'd have to say that G&W is slightly better against Puff, Falcon, and Mewtwo than you give him credit for, and slightly worse against Link, Young Link, and Peach (due to poor blocking of projectiles for Link and Young Link, and neutralization of D-tilt against Peach).

 

[Fonz]

peach's fair pretty much sucks (no offense, but i see my friend overuse this move...then i make him pay for using it)

Maybe your friend is garbs, peach's fair is not. It's got endless uses, it can even be comboed to with more than one move. Also, if someone tries to shieldgrab a fc fair you can grab them before they can grab you. It's a great move, spammable against someone with a brain playing a fast character? No, but so what? Most moves aren't.

 

[Mogwai]

why is this, "remove a move" discussion even happening? I mean, M4F is still wrong about how it would affect most air games (uair is also rediculous for CF comboing, he'd miss his nair, but not more than Ness would miss his only real move. Ganon would live without his uair. Again, he'd miss it, but bair, fair, and dair are all very very good. Marth would switch to nair for spacing and whatnot, and while it's not nerely as good, again, he'd survive just fine. ect ect ect), but it doesn't matter, they have those moves, stop over complicating.

 

[Citrussed]

Maybe its about time we started to discuss about another match-up, no?

 

[NJzFinest]

peach's fair pretty much sucks (no offense, but i see my friend overuse this move...then i make him pay for using it)

ummmmm, Vidjo???? Mikey G???? I don't no much about Peach, but I do know this move works very well with Peach's Turnip spam and helps her control space herself from the opponent.

 

[pockyD]

ok


I've always been under the impression that zelda is strong vs. the ICs, though I've never played a good zelda so I have no idea how it is in actuality (it could just be sheik players exaggerating because this is one of the few spots zelda > sheik?)... can anyone clarify the matchup for me? (currently both sheik and zelda are 5-4 edge for the ICs)

 

[NJzFinest]

During the time period where IC were first considered Sheik counters, people began pressing down B to see how well they would do
Zelda doesn't do "that bad" on IC; she doesn't do any better than Sheik nor she does she do fairly worst that Sheik.
She isn't as easy to chain grab/combo as Sheik. Her attacks push IC's shield (a very good thing) and some are good for separating the two. However...that's about it...I say, stick with Sheik unless your Zelda is better than your Sheik (for whatever reason).

 

[Shiri]

All Zelda has to do is run and camp kicks and forward smash.

The best ICs can do is mindgame her with desynchs to grabs or try to projectile spam her or something. They can whittle on her shield with aerials to quick ground attacks, but sooner or later, they have to use a move that's laggy, and that's all Zelda needs. It's a good thing Zelda can't really shieldgrab ICs or they'd be in some serious trouble here.

 

[Mogwai]

I'm not a master of Captain Falcon, but I'm pretty sure he's not being given propper credit in these matchups:

Marth vs. C. Falcon should be 5. I don't know why Marth is given the edge here, but I'm pretty sure this is one of the most even matchups in the game. They can both combo each other pretty well, CF moreso than marth, but marth has that whole priority and edgegaurding thing in his favor.

Peach vs. C. Falcon should be 5 or a 6 for Falcon. CF can combo Peach very well and properly spaced arials are a real problem for peach. Turnip camping is good vs. him and a well placed dsmash can be problems, but I'm pretty sure he's at least even, if not favored here.

 

[Samochan]

peach's fair pretty much sucks (no offense, but i see my friend overuse this move...then i make him pay for using it)

Peach's fair is her second best aerial, if not her best, for simple reason: it shieldstuns more than it lags when float cancelled so when done correcly, peach always has time to do something on their shields before they can do anything. That's the main reason why use fair on approaches and shields rather than other moves. It also effective way to space peach and kills their CC'ing attempts as well. It's also her most powerful aerial and with proper timing and spacing, can easily kill animals recovery. Turnip rushing works like a dream with this move. My favourite one is to turnip rush at them, fc a fair, slap once and dsmash, then quickly slap again if they're still on their shields and most of the time this hits them cause they jump out of shield at this moment and try to attack peach's head while she lags from dsmash. After the last slap has connected, I can either grab or dsmash again.

Btw, move Marth's fair and he loses his best comboer into fsmash and spike. <_<

And yea mood, the ness player I play is the same that made Sickness (it's quite old vid >_>;; ).

 

[ToP CaT]

ok


I've always been under the impression that zelda is strong vs. the ICs, though I've never played a good zelda so I have no idea how it is in actuality (it could just be sheik players exaggerating because this is one of the few spots zelda > sheik?)... can anyone clarify the matchup for me? (currently both sheik and zelda are 5-4 edge for the ICs)

Umm ya, I wouldnt say the Ic's have the advantage over zelda but thats just me, they are very easy to separate, and easily broken apart by spammed lk's. Zelda is light so they can kill her relatively fast, but properly places lk's make her a ***** to try and grab.

 

[mood4food77]

ICs ahve a slight advantage over her, her kicks can seperate the ICs pretty easily and it can't be sheild grabbed all that well, but she's about the same as sheik, probably a little better on them due to the fact she isn't anywhere near as easy to CT as sheik is

mewtwo vs. doc/mario, i feel it's his worst match-up, i tried it on my friend, he's pretty crappy but nothing would work, dthrow on them is useless, they can jump out before a fair can connect, dtilt is pretty much all mewtwo has for this match, and that doesn't last too long, i'd make this 5-0 in the marios favor

 

[Mogwai]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that Falco vs. Marth should be a 6 for Falco. On FD, this matchup is basically even, but everywhere else, comboing Marth isn't terribly difficult, SHL gives him big problems, and platforms can save you from the dreaded CG. I can't put my finger completely on what it is about Falco's game that works well against Marths, but I'm yet to find a Marth that I'm legitamitly affraid of losing to.

 

[ChozenOne]

So.. when's this getting updated... b/c I was told it would be done last week...

 

[Zodiak-Lucien]

I would also like to see this updated

 

[KevinM]

Yea an update on this would be good, i'd like to see the changes for some of the less unfavorable match-ups for my main's go down hehe

 

[ToP CaT]

what does it matter?

 

[Tope]

Pikachu vs Falco is terrible.

I like how you had it 5-1 before.

If nothing else Pika DEFINATELY does better against Fox than Falco.

I think it's a lie to put it otherwise.

Also Pika can't duck Falco's Blaster... WTF?


Also I'd move the ICies match up vs sheik to 5-3 in their favor.

They certainly win more than space animals.

 

[ToP CaT]

I was under the impression that Ic's on shiek was one of the stronger higher tiered counters in the game

 

[Shiri]

It used to be until Sheiks started to man the **** up, quit whining, and play the matchup.

It's still a good matchup for the ICs, but not the totally free win it used to be.

 

[ToP CaT]

lolz makes sense i guess

 

[Pneuma]

A column with the summation of the dynamic matchup scores would be nice.

 

[phanna]

So.. when's this getting updated... b/c I was told it would be done last week...

You were told? Anyways, yes, I said I was going to try to do it last weekend, but that didn't work out. I started this chart over Thanksgiving break when I had a lot more free time on my hands, and performed most of the updates over Winter break, when I again had a lot of free time. Right now I'm at college, and I don't even play smash except for weekend tournies. I go to class, do my work, and when I get some free time outside of sleeping, eating, and travelling, I play racquetball or DotA. So long story short is, that I update my chart when I have the time to do so, which may not be until mid-March (Spring break). I definitely hope and plan to do it before then, but apparently telling people when I'd like to update it results in posts like this, so I'm just going to do it whenever I do it. I will never have time during the week, and the next 2 weekends I'm spending the weekend elsewhere to attend Smash tournies and see friends, so the earliest this will be updated is Feburary 17th. As I said, the latest the next update will occur is March 17th.

 

[shadenexus18]

I'm sure he will understand. If he doesn't then that's his problem. We do have a life outside of Smash you know.

College is such a drag......

 

[Cherokee Warrior]

roy chart is so wrong.

 

[phanna]

roy chart is so wrong.

Then post how to correct it, or at least some of the improvements that could be made.

 

[Goodies]

It used to be until Sheiks started to man the **** up, quit whining, and play the matchup.

It's still a good matchup for the ICs, but not the totally free win it used to be.

Thanx for that comment Shiri! Sheik mains need to start whining about that matchup and find ways around the grab combos and capitalize on their weak air game compared to Sheik's. It's definitely in favor of the IC, but no where close to a **** matchup. Sheik is excellent at using safe aerials from platforms and ICs are force to approach with their weak overall aerials. You can sneak in a lot of bairs against that ICs and play an incredibly strong hit and run game vs ICs. Definitely keep the rating a 5-4 though in ICs favor.

The matchup is only strongly in favor of IC on FD, but you can always use Peach or Samus on that stage and it's GG for ICs . If you are creative, you mix in some Zelda into your Sheik game on FD and show them the good ol' fsmash -> fsmash combo !

 

[N64]

Though I'd agree Pika has an easier time with Fox than Falco, I don't think it's enough to put them in different rankings. 5-2 for each vs. pika seems fine. IF you can grab falco, or get a nice aerial combo going, he can die so fast. Just get him off the edge and nudge him a little farther with any aerial and he dies. Fox takes a little more. And they've each got their nasty stuff on the chu.

 

[ToP CaT]

ok i might be late, and it might be late, but tell me im reading this wrong and it really doesnt say she would take one from falco and two from fox? (zelda i mean)

 

[mood4food77]

FD is a bad choice against ICs, no matter who you are

ICs do not have weak aerials, they have one of the better air move sets in the game, uair has decent reach and a lot of priority, goes through almost all dairs (including peach's and samus'), their dair leads into a grab at any percent, bair has huge reach (about the same as their fsmash, if not more), nair is great after a throw, especially when you're left with popo, fair is good SHFFL'd and it has a lot of reach

sheik's SH is just as vertical as ICs but it goes much higher, dair is her best choice on the ICs, not fair or bair, dsmash and ftilt work great on them too, probably her best things to use on the ICs, nair works decently too

pika does do better on fox than falco, falco's SHL gets in the way, pichu it's teh opposite, pichu is the hardest character to hit with the SHL, making it easier for pichu to fight falco than fox, but still are bad matches

i want to know mewtwo's match-up on the marios...it seems bad but i don't use mewtwo, i feel it's 0-5 for mewtwo, nothing can be done to them

 

[Mogwai]

Please stop making rediculous claims. . . :

FD is a bad choice against ICs, no matter who you are

ICs do not have weak aerials, they have one of the better air move sets in the game, uair has decent reach and a lot of priority, goes through almost all dairs (including peach's and samus'), their dair leads into a grab at any percent, bair has huge reach (about the same as their fsmash, if not more), nair is great after a throw, especially when you're left with popo, fair is good SHFFL'd and it has a lot of reach

sheik's SH is just as vertical as ICs but it goes much higher, dair is her best choice on the ICs, not fair or bair, dsmash and ftilt work great on them too, probably her best things to use on the ICs, nair works decently too

pika does do better on fox than falco, falco's SHL gets in the way, pichu it's teh opposite, pichu is the hardest character to hit with the SHL, making it easier for pichu to fight falco than fox, but still are bad matches

i want to know mewtwo's match-up on the marios...it seems bad but i don't use mewtwo, i feel it's 0-5 for mewtwo, nothing can be done to them

M2 doesn't like fighting Marios but there's no way it's 5-0. If you can get them in the air, utilt, uair and bair all out range them and give them problems. Mario should be about 3-5 and Doc should be 2-5. Doc's dthrow to fair is too good vs. the floaty chars...

IC's do not have one of the better air move sets in the game. Their only legitamitly good air moves are bair and uair, both of which are very good. fair is too slow(especially to SHFFL, wtf were you talking about...), dair gets beat by almost all upward attacks, and nair doesn't have good enough range. That being said, ICs find ways to make all these moves useful due to grab combos and whatnot, but that still doesn't give them a good air game. Almost every charater in the game just wants to get ICs in the air and then abuse the hell out of their weakness there.

Sheik's dair is not good. It's strictly her worst aerial, and doesn't hit shield's hard enough or have fast enough recovery time to be even close to as good as bair and fair on ICs. dsmash and ftilt are her best moves on the ground in this matchup, but you mostly want to get them in the air, and then keep them at leg's reach with the bair until you can slap one of them off with fair.

Pichu is not the Hardest character to hit with SHL. It's either Jiggs or Peach due to their ability to hover around at a height that is unhittable with SHL. Of course, you can FH and hit them, but this makes them much more disruptive to your laser game than Pichu.

 

[mood4food77]

wobbles SHFFL's fairs against his opponents, so it's useable
good luck hitting ICs with any aerials, but dair is probably her best luck of actually hitting, i thought her uair was worse than her dair cause it doesn't juggle much, oh well, i don't use sheik much

i only thought of the marios being really bad for mewtwo cause against my friends doc (who pretty much spams fsmash) beat me, i went to do the usual stuff too, like dthrow to fair (he jumped out at 0) and dtilt didn't do much either, he's CCC with a dsmash, i used utilt but not much could come out of it, bair worked ok but not the greatest...why does mewtwo have to be so ligth anyways

 

[Gimpyfish62]

ok so i'm afew pages back just reading and i wanted to say a few things

ness has the best air game, he beats everyone there, only peach comes close, and uair ***** the crap outta fox
ness is the third fastest character in the game
the range on fox's shine is not too big (alright...it's the same range as jigg's rest, roughly)
can virtually use every move in his air arsenal (only falcon can really do that too...)
ness, remove fair, he can use bair and approach, remove bair, you're only removing one kill move, he has other options to, remove uair, he can still juggle
without DI, it kills mario at 92% on FD from as far out as he can go, so it's a pretty trust kill move i would think

you continually show his movelist as being something impressive and his recovery not being the most vulnerable thing i've ever seen, that is simply RIDICULOUS, ness is a horrible horrible character, he is NOT one of the fastest characters, he is NOT competitive, and no amazing ness player will be taking out any ACTUAL good fox in a tourney, so quit pretending that matchup is reasonable. the ability to juggle fox does NOT make you counter fox, if it did than OMG BOWSER counters fox (some people actually believe this)

@ shine/rest comparison
*dies*
wtf ridiculous, tahts the dumbest thing i've ever read, you act like its difficult to land shine lol

@using "virtually" all of his air moves
Bowser (when used properly - yeah, its rare) defintely uses every single move he has available to him in every single matchup, using every move you have doesn't mean you have a good moveset, or mean the character is good, or have any weight on matchups, and wtf is the word virtually doing in there, every character can do "virtually" all of their air moves lol

@removing moves nonsense
wtf are we removing moves for? that has no place in this argument wtf lol
durh remove bowsers up b and he is utterly useless in every matchup
remove peaches dsmash and she is significantly less threatening
remove fox's shine and maybe hes not an uber god
remove ness... from the game, and we dont get ness fanboys ruining potentially useful threads

@back throw strength on mario FD
wtf thats ridiculous, maybe with horrible di in the wrong direction

 

[mood4food77]

it's old, and i did state that it can kill mario at 92% without DI

he's fast, just not good, he can hold up to fox alright, better than bowser can, but in no means is it equal

i was just saying if you were to remove a move from each of the otehr characters airgame, what would they be at

and ness is one of the few characters who can utilize all his air moves effectively, marth is another one

ness has one of the best air games, is it the best, we don't know, no one has used ness well enough to distinct it as the best, i just feel it's the best, now let's drop it...that was a while ago


i honostly thought that the shine's range was about as much as jiggs' rest range...i thought it was, now i know that i was wrong

 

[Mogwai]

While I really appreciate the truth of what you're saying Gimpyfish, and it made me chuckle, please, don't give M4F a reason to revive his dead arguments. We alread beat his argument to death, but reason has no place in his head so he just keeps saying the same garbage over and over again, even after you prove him wrong. Everything you said is true, but I can practically garauntee that M4F will come back telling you why all his points were valid and Ness's air game is actually unbeatable.

 

[mood4food77]

i never said it was unbeatable, i'm just saying that i think it's the best, best does not always mean unbeatable

fox is the best character in the game, is he beatable? yes

 

[Gimpyfish62]

fox is the best character in the game, is he beatable? yes

nobody can beat fox lol

 

[NJzFinest]

Beating Fox depends on the skill of the Fox player >.>