All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[ToP CaT]

Isnt ken the only real pro marth? whos like signed

 

[Mogwai]

i'm pretty sure taj has beaten a few pro marths in some games, and taj isn't consider pro yet, so yes, it is possible

what i'm saying for ness is that he's tied with g&w for fox's worst low tier match-up, am i saying he has an advantage over fox, no, but him and g&w do much better than all other low tier characters (except maybe DK, but it's still pretty bad), so 3-5 for ness seems pretty fair to me

Luigi, DK, Roy, and GnW are all better vs. Fox than Ness is, and I think Yoshi might even fare better vs. Fox. I'll accept that he's tied with GnW and Yoshi for Fox's 4th worst low teir matchup, but Luigi, DK, and Roy all do noticibly better vs. Fox.

I also don't really understand why M2 is so low against Marth, it's never been as annoying for me as say, M2 vs. Falco/Fox/Shiek, but I don't really play my M2 much versus good players so that might be it.

 

[phish-it]

Playing Yoshi against Fox is manslaughter.

THen again, what is the accepted definition for pro in SSBM?

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Seriously...there is no way any character should get a zero, at the very, very, extreme a 9-1, the ONLY time I've ever seen a 9-1 was T4Jin vs. T4Kuma...you could literally do LS/2,1's all day and Kuma wouldn't be able to dackdash out of it nor even ss it.

I highly doubt that any SSBM matchup is that crippled, but I would say that there will be some pretty darn badmatchups and regardless there is no way a matchup could ever be a 0 period, so long as that character is within the game it should still be winnable not a complete Zero to me is basically saying that you cannot win, there's no hope or prayer, no matter what and you'll always lose 100%.

step 1: pick up bowser *note it doesn't matter if its an amazing bowser player or a horrible one*
step 2: play a shiek *note: the shiek has to be good, not "great" but definitely good
step 3: continue playing said shiek for roughly 4 hours
step 4: after losing to said shiek for 4 or so hours, weep uncontrollably
step 5: punch shiek player in the face, just because.

there is no hope, there is no prayer, no matter what, you will ALWAYS lose 100% to a good shiek that is trying to win at all.


edit: when people say "pro" they aren't refering to them being signed (generally speaking) and doing such is ridiculous in this kind of context. the best X LOW TIER player in the world would never ever ever get signed unless he had some serious amazing top tier backup goin on.

pro is just refering to those who are best with their character
saying taj isn't pro yet as m2 is absolutely ludicrous and makes me want to punch things. in fact, i might just sit the person next to me in the study hall i'm in right now because thats so dumb. and i dont even know him.

 

[Epsilon52]

this is too true.

maining sheik..........bowsers of awesome calibur and up are annoying but still beatable with minmal effort.

 

[mood4food77]

luigi's only really good on a fox when he's on final, poke stadium, or dreamland, every other stage is greatly in fox's favor, ness and g&w's match-up is not stage dependent

roy lacks combo's in the match, and he's easier to shine combo than ness (ness is one of the almost impossible ones with the marios and ICs)

yoshi...that's pure **** right there, only fumi does good and he's in japan, this is really bad for yoshi

DK, yea i'll agree, but DK is much easier to shine combo than ness is, and also a bigger target, but i say they'll do about the same

g&w might do better because of the manhole and the edgegaurding (he can do it better than everyone)

 

[MetalLuigi1209]

I hate playing Luigi on Yoshi's Island, misfires aren't my friend on that stage.

 

[mood4food77]

it only takes fox 2 shines to kill luigi, one for getting him off the stage, teh otehr for spiking

 

[ToP CaT]

thats how it is with most characters ...?!?!

 

[StripesOrBars]

Fox only has an easy time gimp shinning Falco, Ness and Luigi.

The rest aren't as retardedly easy(Especially Shiek).

 

[OneWingSephiroth]

step 1: pick up bowser *note it doesn't matter if its an amazing bowser player or a horrible one*
step 2: play a shiek *note: the shiek has to be good, not "great" but definitely good
step 3: continue playing said shiek for roughly 4 hours
step 4: after losing to said shiek for 4 or so hours, weep uncontrollably
step 5: punch shiek player in the face, just because.

there is no hope, there is no prayer, no matter what, you will ALWAYS lose 100% to a good shiek that is trying to win at all.

I know full well what you mean, however I highly doubt it's 100%, 100% to me means guaranteed, everytime, ALL the time, perfection, flawlessly. If you honestly think the Shiek vs. Bowser matchup is broken, look at what I posted earlier with T4Jin vs. Kuma...you just do TWO moves over and over, and Kuma can do almost nothing against it...how impossible is that. However even then it's considered a 9-1, not a 10-0.

10-0 to me literally means you can't even take out a single stock or win a single round of a setmatch, that's what I'm saying. At the very worse it should be a 9-1 not a 10-0.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Gimpy plays Bowser because he sux and if he loses with a high tiered character he looks like he sux(which he does).

But since he uses Bowser he can John and say "I lost because I play Bowser".

 

[technomancer]

Fox only has an easy time gimp shinning Falco, Ness and Luigi.

The rest aren't as retardedly easy(Especially Shiek).

Fox cannot gimp shine a Ness player, Ness can almost always recover from a shinespike, and can recover from too far out to be shinespiked. Due to the slight ability to vary his aim, timing, and sweetspotting, as well as use of his airdodge and sweet grabbox in tight quarters make him pretty tough to edgeguard 100% with anyone.

Where did you get this from? Don't you guys have AngryLobster down there?

10-0 to me literally means you can't even take out a single stock or win a single round of a setmatch, that's what I'm saying. At the very worse it should be a 9-1 not a 10-0.

10-0 is correct, Boozer can't touch Sheik, she is too quick, her grabs and combos are too good, and all of Boozer's stuff is 100% shield-grabbable. Sheik can also space and camp with needles, and 0% edgeguard bowser with needles and repeated fairs and bairs.



If Sheik were banned, innumerable characters would be perfectly playable in tournaments, like CF, Ganondorf, Link, DK, Pika, Yoshi, and Bowser, and IMO the smash scene would be alot more diverse and interesting. Who's in?

 

[technomancer]

Oh gross double post sorry, added it to previous post.

 

[StripesOrBars]

Fox=NessGimpster.

 

[Gimpyfish62]

Gimpy plays Bowser because he sux and if he loses with a high tiered character he looks like he sux(which he does).

But since he uses Bowser he can John and say "I lost because I play Bowser".

excuse you? wtf who do you think you are, I dont think you've ever made a useful post on any thread, all you do is start crap with people you dont even know. dont even give me that "bowser is a john" BS. i'm so glad i don't live anywhere near you, and that I dont know anyone like you.

you have no reason to post things like that

maybe you're just a dic.k so when you act like a dic.k to people you can john and say "I act that way because I actually AM male reproductive organs".

 

[Mogwai]

Fox cannot gimp shine a Ness player, Ness can almost always recover from a shinespike, and can recover from too far out to be shinespiked. Due to the slight ability to vary his aim, timing, and sweetspotting, as well as use of his airdodge and sweet grabbox in tight quarters make him pretty tough to edgeguard 100% with anyone.

Where did you get this from? Don't you guys have AngryLobster down there?

Oh come on... Do you realize how f***ing slow Ness's recovery is and how fast Fox is. Ness is without a doubt one of the easiest characters to shine spike. He11, I suck with fox, and I have absolutely no trouble shine spiking Ness. If he's too far out to shinespike, he's a simple edgehog away from death and if he's close enough, well, you have all day while he wheels that PK thunder around to hit himself with which to hit his stationary body. I mean, seriously people, this is completely unquestionable, why are you arguing such an obiously wrong point. I mean, if you want to prove Ness has a chance, give me something that's at least slightly believable, not that he's not retardedly easy to shine spike, cause he is, no f***ing question.

10-0 is correct, Boozer can't touch Sheik, she is too quick, her grabs and combos are too good, and all of Boozer's stuff is 100% shield-grabbable. Sheik can also space and camp with needles, and 0% edgeguard bowser with needles and repeated fairs and bairs.



If Sheik were banned, innumerable characters would be perfectly playable in tournaments, like CF, Ganondorf, Link, DK, Pika, Yoshi, and Bowser, and IMO the smash scene would be alot more diverse and interesting. Who's in?

No, that doesn't make these characters playable. There's so much more to why they're low than just getting ***** by shiek. CF and Ganon would still get rocked by spacies, Link would probably move up to mid teir, but again, he stills get rocked by spacies and therefore wouldn't be very viable. I'm not going into DK, Pika, Yoshi, and Bowser but trust me, they still aren't good enough vs. the current high teirs to be significantly impacted by such a ludacris banning. I mean, I don't like shiek either, but banning just creates new problems and alienates people who have built their style around the tactic is question (here, using sheik), which is no good.

EDIT: Also, Gimpyfish is completely correct, that was a cheap shot and completely uncalled for StripesOrBars. I don't hear him saying how awesome he is, it's just that Bowser sucks. Sure, he says Bowser sucks, it's true. But I don't see him talking smack after that, so there's no need to hate.

 

[Samochan]

DK, Link and Yoshi can do pretty mean stuff to space animals, so they could be totally viable counterpicks if it weren't for sheik chainthrowing them. >_> Dunno much about DK and Yoshi vs Marth, but Link definitely has the ability to stand up Marths, plus peaches too. Pika can be a mean combo machine as well, a good counterpick vs peach, zelda and jiggs, but sheik utterly ***** the rat as well. Animals also **** pika, though pika has mean stuff for him to hit back, plus he edgeguards animals to death, so it could go either way, both have the ability to gimp their opponents.

And at least DK seems good enough to win money on a tournament full of amazing players without banning sheik. <_>

 

[phish-it]

No, that doesn't make these characters playable. There's so much more to why they're low than just getting ***** by shiek. CF and Ganon would still get rocked by spacies,

Oh please, don't give me that bull****.

 

[Luck-NYC/NJ]

Yea Dont Start Beef Wif My Man Gimpy Or Its A Frikin Problem U Clearly Dont Know The Gimpygangstas We Will F U C K U Up Son!!!

 

[mood4food77]

pika gets ***** by peach, i learned the hard way

yoshi vs. spacies, one of the worst counters ever (shines knock him out of his DJ at any percent)

i haven't seen a ness get gimp KO'd by a fox, but i've done it to my friends doc, so it can happen (i just did it, it's easy to do it)

link is even with marth, has a slight advantage over peach, other than that, he's at a disadvantage to everyone else (he also has an advantage over jiggs)

y. link is the same as link

pika has an advantage over falcon

those are the only low tier match-ups worth considering

 

[Mogwai]

Oh please, don't give me that bull****.

I love responces like this for 2 reasons:

1) They're so respectful, you know? There's nothing like writing a nice long explanation of something and then having someone really kick the debate off into name-calling mode.
2) They really let me see your point. I mean, you clearly could have said, "No, this matchup chart is wrong and CF and Ganon are actually fine vs. spacies for ________ reasons", but really, that doesn't inform me about your point as well as, "Oh please, don't give me that bull****."

I mean, come on man, I took a bit of time to write out my responce and tell you what I think would happen with a shiek banning and why. If you're going to argue with what I'm saying, at least back it up

EDIT

i haven't seen a ness get gimp KO'd by a fox, but i've done it to my friends doc, so it can happen (i just did it, it's easy to do it)

Honestly man? I mean, everytime I see a Ness vs. Fox fight, there is a bare minimum of 2 gimpings. It's really really easy. Like, imagine how easy it is to gimp a doc with shine. Now multiply the easy factor by 5 and you have how easy it is to gimp shine ness. His 2nd jump is so slow and his upb is the longest and easiest to shine. And if you miss, well, you usually end up getting hit by the PK thunder, thus negating his recovery anyway.

 

[Mogwai]

sorry for the double post, moved this one up.

 

[arrowhead]

And if you miss, well, you usually end up getting hit by the PK thunder, thus negating his recovery anyway.

i dunno, when i miss i usually fall short and get hit by pkt2 >_<

 

[Mogwai]

i dunno, when i miss i usually fall short and get hit by pkt2 >_<

don't miss

 

[StripesOrBars]

Mario/Fox is definite;y even or at least 5/4 in Fox's favor. Mario has soooo much going for him in this match up. Edgeguarding, chain grab, combo's, basically everything Marth has.

Also, you have Peach Vs Samus as 5/4 in Samus' Favor. Now, I know you messed that 1 up. Samus loses her crouch cancel game due to Peach's DownSmash.

Falcon/Falco should be closer to 5/5. I'd go with 5/4 in Falco's favor. Falcon's tech chase game is deadly Vs Falco. 1 wrong tech roll from Falco, and he's dead at 40%.

Falcon/Gannon is definitely at least 5/3 in Falcon's favor. Falcon needs 1 move in this matchup: Nair. Mix up SH Nairs and FH Nairs and there really is nothing Gannon can do except shield and try and get an UpAir out of his shield.

 

[Cort]

Just noticed you had Zelda having a 2 against Fox and a harsh 1 against Falco. What's the reasoning behind this? Fox ***** Zelda much harder than Falco can, and Falco relies primarily on attacking shields before starting his combos, and I've learned Zelda's up smash out of shield ***** Falco. It sets up for a lot of weird combos >_>

Just wanted to say that, randomly. Not like it matters too much, though.

 

[Winston]

Hmm, the argument's been buried a few pages back, but actually I think Ness is in the top five "fastest" in the game. Above him would be Fox, Falcon, Falco, and ICs (2 chars, 2x the actions, plus wavedash speed)

Check it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=amak4yIAPvw

Thing is, it doesn't actually help ness win >_>

 

[Mogwai]

See, the thing is that fastest is not a concrete term in this case. Frankly, I don't know what criteria you're using, I'm guessing something about most attacks possible within some amount of time, but with your description of ICs there, that doesn't make sense. . . "plus wavedash speed"? Well, whatever, the grand culmination is a video showing his massive speed where he loses to Yoshi :-P. I'm really tired of this debate, Ness is not half as good as the people who use him think he is.

I'm not well versed in Zelda matchups at all, but I'm tempted to say Cort's right there. The only experience I have of Falco vs. a competent Zelda is vs. Magus and he really gave me some trouble. A 3 sounds reasonable to me unless someone has better insight here than Cort's.

 

[NJzFinest]

Zelda definitely does better on Falco than Fox. She can actually somewhat deal with Falco's spam if he camps. Unlike with Fox, Zelda is bound to receive alot of damage from Fox's spam. Zelda is also harder to combo with Falco than with Fox....and Zelda has a easier time dealing with Falco's appoarch rather than Fox's more fasted paced/less predictable one.
Space animals both **** Zelda, but Fox ***** her harder

 

[Shiri]

Mew2Matt is so good.

That Yoshi's pretty amazing, too.

And yes, Fox beats Zelda harder than Falco for all the reasons the kid above me stated and a few more. One of them being that Falco gets edgeguarded for free, if he's not dead, from a kick at 50%.

 

[Winston]

See, the thing is that fastest is not a concrete term in this case. Frankly, I don't know what criteria you're using, I'm guessing something about most attacks possible within some amount of time, but with your description of ICs there, that doesn't make sense. . . "plus wavedash speed"? Well, whatever, the grand culmination is a video showing his massive speed where he loses to Yoshi :-P. I'm really tired of this debate, Ness is not half as good as the people who use him think he is.

I'm not well versed in Zelda matchups at all, but I'm tempted to say Cort's right there. The only experience I have of Falco vs. a competent Zelda is vs. Magus and he really gave me some trouble. A 3 sounds reasonable to me unless someone has better insight here than Cort's.

Gosh, you don't have to be so hostile to anyone who mentions ness in their post.

Notice, I never said anything like "ness is good" or "ness is fast so he's good" or "ness is top tier" or the like. I even said, his speed doesn't help him win. I know ness is bad.

Okay, sorry about that ICs thing.

 

[mood4food77]

ness users know ness sucks, that's why we use him, pretty much goes for all low tier characters, but he still got some stuff to keep him from teh bottom (unlike kirby)

i agree with what doodah said about those match-ups, they seemed a bit too extreme

also to wesley, i said i have never seen a ness get gimp ko'd, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, also did you read what i put in parenthesis that i tried it on a comp and it worked, (me being fox and the comp being ness) i shined, wavedashed off the stage, he went to jump, i shined him again, also, when facing a good ness, they usually go away from teh stage to recover, too far for a fox to make it back safely, trust me, i find it easier to gimp shine a doc than a ness

 

[Magus420]

Falcon/Gannon is definitely at least 5/3 in Falcon's favor. Falcon needs 1 move in this matchup: Nair. Mix up SH Nairs and FH Nairs and there really is nothing Gannon can do except shield and try and get an UpAir out of his shield.

Jab. Hold down & away and jab (you jab while crouching). If it doesn't hit him directly out of it from the start, you'll ASDI "CC" the 1st hit even if it hits you out of a jab and still be able to jab again before the 2nd hit of the n-air comes out. Then either grab, d-tilt, f/u-air, or whatever while he's in a disadvantaged position. Also, jab cancelling like that is a great thing to do in lots of situations against most characters, not just this one. You can eat weak/semi-weak hits like this and jab them or grab them before they can do anything.

 

[Mogwai]

Gosh, you don't have to be so hostile to anyone who mentions ness in their post.

Notice, I never said anything like "ness is good" or "ness is fast so he's good" or "ness is top tier" or the like. I even said, his speed doesn't help him win. I know ness is bad.

Okay, sorry about that ICs thing.

I'm not trying to be terribly hostile, I'm just being frank about this because I'm tired of it. You still didn't say what criteria you were using for that speed comparison, and the comment about Ness users overrating him was not aimed at you.

also to wesley, i said i have never seen a ness get gimp ko'd, doesn't mean it doesn't happen, also did you read what i put in parenthesis that i tried it on a comp and it worked, (me being fox and the comp being ness) i shined, wavedashed off the stage, he went to jump, i shined him again, also, when facing a good ness, they usually go away from teh stage to recover, too far for a fox to make it back safely, trust me, i find it easier to gimp shine a doc than a ness

Are you kidding? Seriously, have you seen the range on Fox's up b? If ness is still threatening to recover, Fox can easily get back from shining him. No problem, not even close. Also, Doc is harder to shine spike because his up b is fast, unlike Ness's which is the slowest thing ever, and if you screw up, you just get Bob$ed, which sucks. I'll trust you that you find it easier to gimp shine a doc, but most good foxes are going to disagree with you.

 

[Blue Enchiladas]

what's wrong with Jiggs' matchup against pika?

Oh, and Falcon should be at leats an 8-2 against Samus, his attacks eat through hers and he can knee combo her like crazy. Also, doc should be 7-3 against falcon, he combos him like mad with dthrow and uthrow to usmash and uair and nair, and can be bthrow/bair'd to death at like 30%. Also, doc can pill him and edgeguard falcon easily.

 

[pdk]

both falcon and doc are easy edgeguards for each other, and doc eats knees as much as falcon eats throw combos

 

[Cra$hman]

wow, i just realized this last has falcon as samus's worst matchup????

 

[mood4food77]

falcon is probably doc's worst match-up, doc cannot escape falcon's CT, and eats knee combo's, pill combo's will not slow down falcon that much, it's pretty bad




to wesley, i'm not a good fox, i only used him to see how easy it was gimp shine a ness (i only use him to keep my tech skill up anyways), yea i was probably exaggerrating a bit on fox not being able to recover, but do remember tailwhipping can mess up a fox's recovery, so it is dangerous, as why most fox's don't randomly jump out and shine spike, why they prefer bair over teh shine spike (much more trusty), since the range on fox's shine is not too big (alright...it's the same range as jigg's rest, roughly), and just the fact that if he does miss, he's most likely eating ness' PKT2, which can deal a lot of damage in the beginning (i think it's 28%), so yes it may be easy, but it's not the safest choice in the world

and ability to edgegaurd a character doesn't make a match-up, look at ganon for example, i'm pretty sure that in 90% of his match-ups in his favor, he gets edgegaurded easier than his opponents, look at g&w on fox, g&w edgegaurds fox A LOT better than fox edgegaurds g&w, look who has the advantage, so edgegaurding is not a big part of the match-up

jiggs on pika, pika is smaller, faster, has the 2nd strongest charged smash in the game (but it hits unlike ganon's), it's the strongest uncharged, he has a weird projectile, his recovery is hard to edgegaurd, he's a semi-fast faller and is light so juggles don't last long, jiggs is light and floaty (usmash can kill her at 30%), and he has more overall reach than jiggs, it's bad, good luck getting a rest on the rat (heck, if ganon can dodge them, so can pika)

 

[phanna]

Hmm, the argument's been buried a few pages back, but actually I think Ness is in the top five "fastest" in the game. Above him would be Fox, Falcon, Falco, and ICs (2 chars, 2x the actions, plus wavedash speed)

Check it:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=amak4yIAPvw

Thing is, it doesn't actually help ness win >_>

That video is playing faster than the game does, not sure how much, but watch something like his PK thunder, which always has the same speed. It's about 20% faster, the whole video is. Not a bad video, but in terms of arguing character speeds, it's important to note the vid isn't gameplay speed.