All Characters Match-up Chart (9/07 update)

[mood4food77]

and the skill of his opponents and who he is going against

 

[Gimpyfish62]

nope, nobody can beat fox.

 

[Falco_Phoenix]

Geez, does Mewtwo really suck that much?!? His tail has a pretty long range, and his throws are like the most powerful in the game.

 

[ToP CaT]

yep m2 really sucks that much and to the previous posters, ness pwnz!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Cort]

Speaking of which, I think you give the Mewtwo vs Fox matchup too much credit towards Mewtwo.

PC 4 stocked Taj in tourny at OC2... Mewtwo honestly has nothing too much going towards him against people that don't fall for his cute little tricks. He's floaty, and big. An easy usmash/uair kill target.

If anything I'd give Mewtwo a 1 against Fox.

In conclusion, Mewtwo is 4x weak to Fox types.

 

[Timotee]

nobody can beat fox lol

Come on Gimpy, don't lie.

Fox can kick Fox's butt.

 

[phanna]

I'm getting sick of people trying to define all the complexities and nature of a character's matchups with various opponents based on one amazing player. This thread does not say "This is how the worlds best 26 players of each character would fair against each-other". It attempts to show the nature of each match-up as if played by equally-skilled players, both well-experienced and capable of playing the character well. Big difference. This is why Mew2King's suggestion to make Mew2 an IC counter because of Taj vs Chu-Dat is garbage, and this is also why I don't care how many stocked Taj got by PC. If you name a pro character in your post as your logic underlying your conclusions about average well-talented tournament goers, your suggestions will almost certainly be ignored since they have zero relevance to what this chart is supposed to convey.

 

[Cort]

Did I mention he's big? And floaty?

What on earth are two equally skilled players?

 

[ToP CaT]

its impossible to have two equally skilled players, I believe he means people who are both at around the same level with their individual characters

 

[Cort]

its impossible to have two equally skilled players, I believe he means people who are both at around the same level with their individual characters

What exactly does that mean? PC is one of the best Foxes. Taj is probably the best Mewtwo. Taj get's 4 stocked by PC in tourny cause of his gigantic floaty thing that loves to die vertically... and for some reason the matchup is only considered 2 points away from being "even".

It's not.

 

[Airo]

minor tweek suggestion phanna.

i do feel that
mewtwo vs cfalcon should be made 1:5 instead of 2:5
- cfalcon, when on offensive forces mewtwo in his shield.
- cfalcons shuffled nairs are almost never in mewtwo's shield grab range
- mewtwo's size makes him a huge target for kneeing
- cfalcon's speed aids to severely punish all of mewtwo's techs, rolls, and shteleports
- most falcon combos on mewtwo are potentially 0-50%.
- mewtwo's sbcc's hitbox is not large enough to counter falcon nair spams.

 

[Airo]

What exactly does that mean? PC is one of the best Foxes. Taj is probably the best Mewtwo. Taj get's 4 stocked by PC in tourny cause of his gigantic floaty thing that loves to die vertically... and for some reason the matchup is only considered 2 points away from being "even".

It's not.

well heres a non-player specific analysis
im not trying to point out all the pros and cons, just pointing out as many things as i can that relates to the matchup.

-mewtwo is capable of ripping out 0-70% combos on fox
-mewtwo dtilt combos fox like crazy
-mewtwo is almost never shinespiked
-at higher percentages, i believe upthrow to uair disconnects
-fox's shuffles are counterable by sbcc
-mewtwo backthrows projects fox at low angles
-dtilt to fair kills fox at 110%
-mewtwo has no major problems edgeguarding fox at midhigh percentages using dsmash, dtilt, ftilts, bthrows, shadowball.
-fox is horrible at edgeguarding mewtwo
-fox's doesnt have a projectile that restricts mewtwo's ground movements.

-fox destroys mewtwo with upthrow to uair at 75-90%
-mewtwo dies from fox upsmashes at 80%
-fox's speed helps to to easily tech-chase mewtwo
-foxes speed helps him to potentially punish mewtwo's rolls, techs, and teleports.
-at 0% fox upthrow to uair connects to a second upair, totalling 30-40% damage
-drillshine to techchase leads to grabs and potentially death.


edit: woops doublepost... thought the time dif was enough




-----------------------
edit:

@ people who respnded to gimpy's "fox is unbeatable"
._." arg... guys.....learn to pick up classic gimpy humor....

 

[Cort]

-mewtwo is capable of ripping out 0-70% combos on fox
Yeah, if the Fox doesn't know what DI is... the most Mewtwo can arguably do consistently are 2-3 hit combos, at best.

-mewtwo dtilt combos fox like crazy
Maybe the first one does...

-mewtwo is almost never shinespiked
Why would you want to shine spike a Mewtwo?

-at higher percentages, i believe upthrow to uair disconnects
No. Why would the Mewtwo live to these high percentages anyway.

-fox's shuffles are counterable by sbcc
Uh... sort of not really at all.

-mewtwo backthrows projects fox at low angles
DI please.

-dtilt to fair kills fox at 110%
I suppose.

-mewtwo has no major problems edgeguarding fox at midhigh percentages using dsmash, dtilt, ftilts, bthrows, shadowball.
dsmash to edge gaurd? ftilts also have very low knock back...

-fox is horrible at edgeguarding mewtwo
He doesn't really need to when he can kill him vertically every single stock.

-fox's doesnt have a projectile that restricts mewtwo's ground movements.
Not like that's a bad thing since well... Mewtwo is terrible.



-fox destroys mewtwo with upthrow to uair at 75-90%
Even lower on some stages, it's really pathetic. And getting 2 uairs off is not hard on Mewtwo at all, which can lead to even smaller percentages.

-mewtwo dies from fox upsmashes at 80%
Somewhere around there...

-fox's speed helps to to easily tech-chase mewtwo
Sure.

-foxes speed helps him to potentially punish mewtwo's rolls, techs, and teleports.
Right..

-at 0% fox upthrow to uair connects to a second upair, totalling 30-40% damage
Yum.

-drillshine to techchase leads to grabs and potentially death.
Yeah it'll do that.


Falco's lasers alone do not make him that much better against Mewtwo. He is much more easily edge gaurded, and does not capitalize on vertical KOs nearly as much as Fox can.

I think the bias in the actual chart may come from.. nevermind. That would be mean.

 

[ToP CaT]

Ya idk that m2 combos fox with the dtilt like "Crazy" but it can lead to a grab and to a fair like you said, and i dnt exactly know why this matchup is so close. M2 is TERRIBLE! especially against fox omg! But like homeboy said up there, i would rather play fox than cf with m2.

 

[Goodies]

FD is a bad choice against ICs, no matter who you are

ICs do not have weak aerials, they have one of the better air move sets in the game, uair has decent reach and a lot of priority, goes through almost all dairs (including peach's and samus'), their dair leads into a grab at any percent, bair has huge reach (about the same as their fsmash, if not more), nair is great after a throw, especially when you're left with popo, fair is good SHFFL'd and it has a lot of reach

sheik's SH is just as vertical as ICs but it goes much higher, dair is her best choice on the ICs, not fair or bair, dsmash and ftilt work great on them too, probably her best things to use on the ICs, nair works decently too

Hmm. I definitely agree that IC's do not have weak aerial attacks, but I mentioned that Sheik's aerial game is much stronger and it's important for Sheik to use her aerials more effectively particularly her bair and fairs to fast tilts, dsmashes or more aerials to quickly separate the ICs. Sheik's dair is incredibly situational against the ICs. Potential uses can be just as tech chases or to combo after bairs hits.

Can more Sheiks main enlighten us on this matchup more and use of aerials to defrost the ICs? Those are my opinions above and I think it'll be more useful to get more feedback from the Sheik main community. I still stand by the current ratings of 5-4 in ICs favor though. Sheik is too good!

 

[Mogwai]

Ya idk that m2 combos fox with the dtilt like "Crazy" but it can lead to a grab and to a fair like you said, and i dnt exactly know why this matchup is so close. M2 is TERRIBLE! especially against fox omg! But like homeboy said up there, i would rather play fox than cf with m2.

I think much more to the point is that M2's capacity to combo someone doesn't make a matchup for him. Falco, CF, and Fox are all the easiest to combo with M2, but honestly, I think they're his worst 3 matchups. I don't know why marth is considered worse for him... at least you have projectiles and a pretty easy bair edgegaurd on Marth, it's 5-2 IMO. Cort is right, as usual, about the M2 Fox matchup, and saying M2 dies at 80% to upsmash is honestly being pretty generous to M2, and CF is just as bad, with Falco only being slightly better. All of them should be a 1-5 IMO. I mean, I can trash really bad Foxes with my M2, but facing anyone competent, it's a r@pe and a half. Also, not sure what M2 vs. GnW is at right now, but it should be 2-5. GnW wrecks the hell out of M2 with fair and dtilt alone basically, and while you have a little bit of combo potential, the only real thing M2 has going for him is the early uair kils.

 

[pockyD]

*early fair kills

and bair should be sheik's primary air move in sheik vs. ICs... spaced properly, it's extremely difficult to punish

more practical though is just jumping around platforms slowly needling the IC to death

 

[PointyStikODoom]

Hmm. I definitely agree that IC's do not have weak aerial attacks, but I mentioned that Sheik's aerial game is much stronger and it's important for Sheik to use her aerials more effectively particularly her bair and fairs to fast tilts, dsmashes or more aerials to quickly separate the ICs. Sheik's dair is incredibly situational against the ICs. Potential uses can be just as tech chases or to combo after bairs hits.

Can more Sheiks main enlighten us on this matchup more and use of aerials to defrost the ICs? Those are my opinions above and I think it'll be more useful to get more feedback from the Sheik main community. I still stand by the current ratings of 5-4 in ICs favor though. Sheik is too good!

Sheiks Dair is probbaly one of the worst choices of an arieal against the IC's though, in my opinion. It is out prioritized by their up tilt and up smash too easily.

I definitly agree with the current rating of 5-4 for IC's. They have an edge but it is by no means an absolute counter. Once Sheik can get the little runts seperated and in the air, its pretty tivial to remove Nana with fair and then go after the now solo Popo.

 

[Airo]

sigh... quoting makes my replies look so hugee.... but its really not

cort, your replies are terrible x.x''

-mewtwo is capable of ripping out 0-70% combos on fox
Yeah, if the Fox doesn't know what DI is... the most Mewtwo can arguably do consistently are 2-3 hit combos, at best.

most of mewtwo's moves have knockbacks with extremely minor variations. the moves generally connect very quickly and smoothly. they usually DO rack up to 60-70% damage without too much problems.

-dtilt to fair kills fox at 110%
I suppose.

ofcourse it does

ftilts also have very low knock back...

you must be unfamiliar with mewtwo's ftilts.

-fox's doesnt have a projectile that restricts mewtwo's ground movements.
Not like that's a bad thing since well... Mewtwo is terrible.

as long as mewtwo has a freedom of movement, mewtwo can have successful approaches and start combos.

-fox destroys mewtwo with upthrow to uair at 75-90%
Even lower on some stages, it's really pathetic. And getting 2 uairs off is not hard on Mewtwo at all, which can lead to even smaller percentages.

your exaggerating.

Falco's lasers alone do not make him that much better against Mewtwo. He is much more easily edge gaurded, and does not capitalize on vertical KOs nearly as much as Fox can.

mewtwo's approaches are absolutely ground based. mewtwo's aerial approaches are terrible. falco lasers absolutely screw up mewtwo's approach. leaving him, one of mewtwo's most terrible matchup.

I think the bias in the actual chart may come from.. nevermind. That would be mean.

cort, i think YOU are biased ._." failling to see that every character in the game has an extent of competitive play.

and no, mewtwo's row looks completely as it should be.

if i didnt look at phanna's chart and come up with my own for mewtwo, they would like just about identical.

and saying M2 dies at 80% to upsmash is honestly being pretty generous to M2

._.' on fd, mewtwo lives at 75%.

Also, not sure what M2 vs. GnW is at right now, but it should be 2-5. GnW wrecks the hell out of M2 with fair and dtilt alone basically, and while you have a little bit of combo potential, the only real thing M2 has going for him is the early uair kils.

this is not true at all =.=" your being too hypothetical.

I don't know why marth is considered worse for him...

all of mewtwo's approaches have very short ranges while marth's moves all have huge range.
mewtwo has a very hard time approaching marth. mewtwo can hardly even combo marth.
grabbing a marth is almost impossible so mewtwo's throws are disabled. mewtwo's classic combo starter, dtilt, is also outranged by marth's fair. basicly, in this matchup, mewtwo cant do anything except throw out random surprising nairs and fairs.

 

[Cort]

Let's just make up cute arbitrary situations in our heads and base all of our character matchup ranks on facts that don't get reflected in actual matches at all.

edit// lol canadian mewtwo

 

[Mogwai]

all of mewtwo's approaches have very short ranges while marth's moves all have huge range.
mewtwo has a very hard time approaching marth. mewtwo can hardly even combo marth.
grabbing a marth is almost impossible so mewtwo's throws are disabled. mewtwo's classic combo starter, dtilt, is also outranged by marth's fair. basicly, in this matchup, mewtwo cant do anything except throw out random surprising nairs and fairs.

I use a SH shadow ball to grab approach vs. Marth, and I haven't had very many problems getting this to work. I don't play against many good Marths, but what's wrong with Shadow Ball, WD in and grab?

 

[Skler]

I'd just like to say M2's ftilt has crappy knockback UNLESS sweetspotted, which only makes it decent. Getting close enough to sweetspot an ftilt is hard though, because M2 is huge.

I'm pretty sure fox can use only the nair, uair, uthrow and shine. nair for all approaches (M2 can't stop it unless he gets a well timed f or utilt off) and then just shine from those or grab. Uthrow to uair for all kills. M2 really gets screwed so bad vs fox it's funny. M2 can't approach fox because Fox should never stop using his ariels into shines, M2 cant even leave his shield without getting hit, much less approach fox. All M2 can do is run away and pray for the fox to miss an l-cancel or shine. Then M2 can get a grab off or use his claw, which can lead to a combo that will end long before fox dies, then the **** will resume.

Everybody can combo space animals, most can do it better then M2 and also have more priority, speed, power and better defensive options. M2 should get a one, two is being nice.

 

[Airo]

I'd just like to say M2's ftilt has crappy knockback UNLESS sweetspotted, which only makes it decent. Getting close enough to sweetspot an ftilt is hard though, because M2 is huge.

All M2 can do is run away and pray for the fox to miss an l-cancel or shine. Then M2 can get a grab off or use his claw, which can lead to a combo that will end long before fox dies, then the **** will resume.

Everybody can combo space animals, most can do it better then M2 and also have more priority, speed, power and better defensive options. M2 should get a one, two is being nice.

dtilt > ftilt??

omg... i dont know how to respond to you biased people anymore... you phail to see that every character has a higher level of competitive play.

i made attempts to provide non-biased responses. and in my opinion, i did a fine job.
it is made clear that non biased reasoning no longer works around here.

instead of making intelligent justifications from both sides, you dismiss one side's characteristics and base its reputation on the tier list and the crowd. you look at phanna's analysis and conclude that they are nothing more than biased pitty points.

this is misery.

justify yourself from my accusation.

and cort... you're american

 

[ToP CaT]

hmm a bit too passionate for talking about mewtwo, but i do agree- there is a lack of overall intelligence in the arguments these days.,

 

[Hank McCoy]

Then post how to correct it, or at least some of the improvements that could be made.

correct roy chart:
fox = 4
falco = 2
shiek = 1
marth = 3
peach = 2
cfalcon = 3
ic = 1
samus = 2
doc = 2
jiggz = 2
mario = 2
ganon = 2
link = 4
luigi = 4
dk = 2
roy = n/a
ylink = 5
pikachu = 5
yoshi = 5
zelda = 4
g&w = 6
ness = 5
bowser = 5
kirby = 6
pichu = 7
mew2 = 5

 

[Cort]

and cort... you're american

No, I'm not, actually.

rofl

 

[Deleted member]

then what ARE you?

 

[Junpappy]

I'm getting sick of people trying to define all the complexities and nature of a character's matchups with various opponents based on one amazing player..

Pros should be considered but only to the extent of how much they influence the metagame of their respective characters.

 

[pockyD]

Pros should be considered but only to the extent of how much they influence the metagame of their respective characters.

sounds like you just threw words together; that sentence doesn't really mean much

pros should definitely be considered, especially among the more frequently played characters, as they pretty much define what we know about any matchup played at the top level

 

[Skler]

dtilt > ftilt??

omg... i dont know how to respond to you biased people anymore... you phail to see that every character has a higher level of competitive play.

i made attempts to provide non-biased responses. and in my opinion, i did a fine job.
it is made clear that non biased reasoning no longer works around here.

instead of making intelligent justifications from both sides, you dismiss one side's characteristics and base its reputation on the tier list and the crowd. you look at phanna's analysis and conclude that they are nothing more than biased pitty points.

this is misery.

justify yourself from my accusation.

and cort... you're american

I told you why M2 gets ***** by fox. He can't stop anything fox does except with landing one of two attacks that will stop it. You insist that he doesn't do bad because he has good combos. I was telling you every character can combo fox because you think that since M2 can combo fox he stands a chance, he doesn't (and his combos aren't as deadly as most other chars and are harder to start up). I know theres a higher level of competitive play for M2, but it still doesn't mean he stands a chance vs a fox of equal skill. M2 gets killed early, is huge, has low ariel priority and has no options out of his shield to stop fox from approaching him. Thereby the matchup is awful.

 

[Vall3y]

sorry if it was asked before, but i thought ic kinda counter sheik. why is it on 6?

 

[Mogwai]

it's been talked about, a lot. I'm pretty sure this thread is completely cyclic and taht everything has been talked about at least 3 times by now :\.

Anyway, it's still debatable, but mostly, Phanna's opinion (and mine as well) on this matchup is that people far overrate the counter and that it is really just a soft counter. Shiek has just too much going for her for something like a 0-death combo to make a matchup unplayable for her.

 

[BigRick]

Thinking about it, if the IC player is an infinite user, he can 0-death anyone. Matchups like Peach and Samus can still be tough though.

 

[blaargh198]

Thinking about it, if the IC player is an infinite user, he can 0-death anyone. Matchups like Peach and Samus can still be tough though.

So what if he uses infinite combos? They still need to be set up in order to work, and you especially need to be sure Nana is positioned right with the icys. plus, setting up infinite combos like wobbling is very hard to do when facing any projectile user, so even with infinites not every icy's matchup is a sure win. That's why character counters exist.

 

[Virgilijus]

so even with infinites not every icy's matchup is a sure win.

Of course there is no such thing as a sure win, but it does help not just in the fact that they can 0%-Death some one but that the other player has the fear of a grab in the back of their mind. In does not mean they will win, but it is a very potent weapon.

 

[BigRick]

huh I never said that it would be a sure win for the IC, I thought my post meant otherwise...

 

[PacStrife]

I was wondering about the match up between Captain Falcon and Fox. I have always understood this as one of falcon's worst match ups, seems worthy of at least a 3. Just throwing it out there to see what other people think. (Sorry if it has already been discussed)

 

[Shiri]

For Falcon v. Fox, I'm pretty sure Fox only needs shine, neutral air, and maybe grabs.

It's almost too easy. Falcon's only real hope here are free tech chases, low altitude knees, and some good neutral air use. That's all I see going for him, though.

 

[ChozenOne]

So.. when is Phanna's spring break

 

[phanna]

So.. when is Phanna's spring break

right after HOST2