Alabama Thread! (10/26/2016 update)

[TheReflexWonder]

is thart a beyblade avitar ryker?

It's the main character of Yu-Gi-Oh GX.

 

[TheSaintKai]

This **** is going to be out of order, but I don't feel like fixing it.

why....
this kind of stuff just makes me feel like you guys arent even playing the same game as the rest of us. its all soooo relaxed dude... like it just looks like you guys dont have to try as hard as everyone else LOL and you cant blame me for thinking that THAT IS WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE AND FROM WHAT I CAN TELL THAT IS THE PLAIN OLD FACT OF THE MATTER. notice the keyword is "from what i can tell" though.


look at v1nnies ic's since you used him as an example.
he just spams and throws himself into his opponent looking for grab opportunities. he is not really "playing" he is just kind of ****ing around. but he eliminates the need for 1. SPACING and 2. PRESSURE GAME. like wtf is that?! but he is a rllly good ics
seriously though, maybe you guys just cant tell because you are both ic's players lol but v1nnies ic's are garbage but that doesnt matter because they are still ic's. so in ACTUALITY v1nnie's ic's = the greatest.
watch any of his videos how do you guys get away with half of the stuff he is doing? lol




the only ic's that looks good to me is Sw0rdguard. the rest of you guys just look really sloppy and relaxed and just basically not clean, but you ALL get away with it. there is not a character in brawl that people could do that with other than metaknight.
hurrm duurrrm heeerrp deerrp wonnder whyy????

Having to try has nothing to do with this. If you were at all adaptable, you'd just stay in the air or on a platform. You'd learn to fight my character, instead of trying for the same combo opportunities as you use against other characters. And how did it look like Hylian (who is considered either best or second best ICs) wasn't trying against MJG? He was desperately trying to get MJG to just take damage, let alone touch the ground and get grabbed.

Ice Climbers don't need to space or have a pressure game?! OMG
If we don't space, most of our moves get beaten by shield grab, just like every other character in this game. My F-smash and U-smash have a sweet spot at the tip, just like Marth. My F-air has a sweet spot, and I have to read the **** out of you to hit it.
Pressure? Slam, you are ALWAYS pressured if you are on the ground with ICs. If I stand about a dash length away from you, there's already pressure. The pressure of getting grabbed. If you're in the air, all I have to do is stand under you. Pressured. Boom.

I agree with you Slam...but if you kill nana IC's then becomes 3x harder than every other character, I feel its a good trade

This. Separated, I have almost no tools. I have a CG that ends at the edge of a stage, I have a great U-air, but almost no aerial mobility. I have a decent B-air. My other tools are fairly easy to see coming and have a bad risk/reward ratio.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RtptY0qU6wo&feature=related

also this ice climbers player is ranked number 6 in michigan.

He is number 6 in MI NOW. Not back a year ago when this video was.





As another note, Kakera, the Japanese Ice Climbers player who is considered one of the best in the world, LOST THIS 100-0 MATCH UP TO SUPERIOR SPACING AND GOOD READS.

THE MATCH UP OF GANON TO ICE CLIMBERS IS 100-0 IN ICE CLIMBERS FAVOR. PLEASE KEEP THAT IN MIND. This, as well as Slam's video, shows that you can beat them despite any match-up if you just stop griping and learn what the hell is safe. A prime example is a character like D3. You hit me with a back air while I'm grounded. Which is safer: another greedy bair to try and get 13% on me? If I shield it or sidestep, you're grabbed. OR a b-reverse swallow that will force me to retreat? Or even just jump away. You got your 15%. Reset the situation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-UFiuAQBmbs

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Is that Dio the Blazblue Carl player?

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

I'm gonna hit up that competitive Mario Kart 7 once I've had some time on the new tracks. No ****ting.

 

[shaSLAM]

what are you even saying saint?
are you saying that the d3 matchup vs IC'S is 100-0?


big whoop you saw a HORRID player lose to a matchup that is WAAAAAYYYYY in ICS favor and youre like "THIS PROVES ANYONE CAN BEAT ICSS!"

try entering a tournament with another character other than ics and see how good you place. then maybe you wont take your broken *** character for granted or say that they require half as much skill as you claim they do.


also 10 seconds into that video i saw a dropped grab >_> not taking you seriously right now.

and are you saying i dont know how to adapt cuz i do. i just dont know exactly what is safe on shield to thaaaat extent. i know what is safe to some extent but not that extent so when you grab me as ics it is because i didnt know that you could get a grab in that situation more than likely.
and lol at reverse inhale grounded vs ics. why wouldnt you just jump over it and grab me? it takes long enough to do plenty of that.



EDIT NOW CAN WE STOP TALKING ABOUT ICS ITS THE SAME THING AS MK DISCUSSIONS

ics mains are gonna talk about how bad their character is and non-mains are gonna talk about how broken they are.
saint go talk to janitor about how broken of a character snake is(cuz you think snake is broken). he will say the opposite.
discussions like these are pointless and should take place ont he character boards where ppl will argue with real data and stuff like that. and youll have more of a pool of players that vary in skill level (except with ics) to compare and contrast things from.

but all things aside you should seriously never complain about snake cuz @lly got wrecked by v1nnies ics and v1nnie wasnt even paying full attention lool

 

[I SEE YOU]

I think Janitor said it best when he said our scene doesn't have that many VERY GOOD players. Outside of My brother, Calvin, & Billy; most of the players in AL are mid to low level players. Because of this, most of our scene doesn't know how to play certain matchups (like ICs) & because of that, myself and Saint wreck a lot of ppl. However, that is not to say Saint is a scrub. I feel like the last few posts have turned into bashing rather than any type of logical discussion of a character. I would side with Saint when he says ppl should LEARN THEIR OPTIONS against ICs. I haven't seen a lot of Saints vidz, but from his results I'm pretty certain he's not dash grabbing 24/7. Sure the chain grab when landed can be pretty devastating, but when ppl don't think when they play they will not land a grab. I also think ppl underestimate how difficult it can be to grab a player when your opponents mindset is (DO NOT GET GRABBED). If you have this mindset and execute it, it's pretty tough for characters to grab you. My brother made a good point of mentioning how Calvin shuts me down with lasers, jabs, and phantasm; until he goes for something like a laggy fsmash I GET THAT POWERSHIELD AND FACK THAT NINJA UP! I don't know. I just hope Saint comes to my b-day tournament so i can show him more tricks, so he can keep making yall ninjas mad :]

 

[theONEjanitor]

the ICs consistently dropped chain grabs in that ganon match and could have easily won if he hadnt (despite his bad play in general).
its kind of standard for the player of a character to underrate that character because you know the character's weaknesses.
but my entire argument is based around years of watching videos. The fact that you have the option of picking toon link or peach and taking them to certain stages definitely weakens them. But that doesn't change the fact that their gimmick is one of the most broken things in a video game, all things being equal. saying stuff like "lol space well" is useless to me because i've seen the matches bro. been watching them for years. that toon link didn't win because he lol spaced well and played smart. he did bc he picked a character that doesnt need to be on the ground much and a stage with 3 platforms. and like i said that OPTION helps counter ICs (which was part of why MK was so excessively overpowered because there was no such option). but it doesn't "prove" that the ICs gimmick isn't dumb. especially considering the fact that we use stage strikes in brawl, and you're allowed to change characters when you win.

Also its so strange how much effort I put into not insulting people or using ad hominem, yet I consistently get bashed whenever I write something (not this time, but just generally), yet slam is always straight up calling people scrubs lol and no one cares. yall *****s crazy.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

because we know slam might be high(jk)

lol, this discussion reminds me of something....hm......

http://forums.elswordonline.com/Topic332311.aspx
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VotMt_MyU3c&feature=player_embedded

 

[Mahgnittoc]

the ICs consistently dropped chain grabs in that ganon match and could have easily won if he hadnt (despite his bad play in general).
its kind of standard for the player of a character to underrate that character because you know the character's weaknesses.
but my entire argument is based around years of watching videos. The fact that you have the option of picking toon link or peach and taking them to certain stages definitely weakens them. But that doesn't change the fact that their gimmick is one of the most broken things in a video game, all things being equal. saying stuff like "lol space well" is useless to me because i've seen the matches bro. been watching them for years. that toon link didn't win because he lol spaced well and played smart. he did bc he picked a character that doesnt need to be on the ground much and a stage with 3 platforms. and like i said that OPTION helps counter ICs (which was part of why MK was so excessively overpowered because there was no such option). but it doesn't "prove" that the ICs gimmick isn't dumb. especially considering the fact that we use stage strikes in brawl, and you're allowed to change characters when you win.

Also its so strange how much effort I put into not insulting people or using ad hominem, yet I consistently get bashed whenever I write something (not this time, but just generally), yet slam is always straight up calling people scrubs lol and no one cares. yall *****s crazy.

I think its because people see your statements as ignorant and Slam is just being ignorant when he calls people out.

Not hatin on either of you.

 

[*Cam*]

I can't talk for most of ICs matchups. I know that Olimar is difficult as hell against ICs because Blizzard pretty much shuts him down. I know that Pikachu is considered even, but I think ICs has a slight-moderate advantage.

Using a mid-ranged character, I've come to realize that the ICs matchup with Pika is less about zoning and more about getting good reads. It's about knowing when the ICs is going to dash in, shield, pivot grab, etc. I feel it's those reads that will separate Popo from Nana and eventually get Nana killed.

I agree an infinite chaingrab is really silly, and it's really tough for mid-level players like us who are used to making plenty of mistakes in match. Still, at high-level of play, I think ICs are limited enough for people to beat them as easily as any other matchup. It's already been said a few times, but Nana is really vulnerable when separated from Popo. Once Nana is dead, Popo shouldn't be much trouble.

 

[TheSaintKai]

I believe I am going to abstain from any further discussion about my character.

I just hope Saint comes to my b-day tournament so i can show him more tricks, so he can keep making yall ninjas mad :]

Tricksies. :D Yours is the 14th in Phenix City, aye?

Will there be housing the night of? Because even if I can manage to call out of work (the other person with the same position as me quit, so I'm training a new one tomorrow) or get someone to stand in for me, I still have work the night before. So I'll definitely get off, go home and sleep til like 5 AM, then get on the road.

I hate my schedule looooool. xD



Edit: Also, I've noticed that every tournament one of us goes to, the other can't make it.

The world is working against an ICs ditto. x)

 

[I SEE YOU]

Housing wouldn't be a problem. You could stay at my parent's house (rental house they are in because of the fire) <~ that's 10 minutes away from the venue, or with the Auburn guys which is about 40 minutes away from the venue. We're never at the same tournaments because you don't go to the tournaments that I attend! Since i got married, I really stopped going anywhere that's more than 2 hours away from me.
In other ICs related news~ My drive to perfect repetitive techniques like chain grabs have shifted to handstands. I will master this shi*!

 

[TheReflexWonder]

Handstands are difficult.

Also, I like how you volunteer other people's houses for players to stay at.

 

[TheSaintKai]

If housing is no problem, I'll stay wherever will take me the night after the tournament. :D
I just don't want to drive there in the morning, then immediately drive back that night. ._.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Janitor, you're really silly, you know that?

You say that "lol space well" isn't a valid retort. You assume no mistakes on the part of the ICs to say that the character is broken, but then you say that characters like Marth, Snake, Diddy, or ROB will make mistakes allowing the ICs to make the grab. Your argument is hypocritical because you are allowed to throw out any video of an ICs making a mistake as evidence against your point. However, you also immediately get to declare that a video supports your point when a Marth screws up and gets grabbed. Played perfectly, Marth never has to let them in. You either have to give a little and realize that you just saw a Ganon beat the world's best ICs, friendlies or not, or you have to immediately throw out all evidence supporting your point on the basis of "That guy did something unsafe and got grabbed. That wouldn't have happened if he were better."

When you work on what your apparent definition of a mistake is and what you think doesn't support the counter argument, you are going to remain smugly correct because you've built yourself an unassailable fortress. In doing that, you also keep yourself from learning why you could possibly be wrong and making progress toward figuring out the right answer.

You dig?

 

[TheSaintKai]

You dig?

My brain just shattered.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Janitor, you're really silly, you know that?

You say that "lol space well" isn't a valid retort. You assume no mistakes on the part of the ICs to say that the character is broken, but then you say that characters like Marth, Snake, Diddy, or ROB will make mistakes allowing the ICs to make the grab. Your argument is hypocritical because you are allowed to throw out any video of an ICs making a mistake as evidence against your point. However, you also immediately get to declare that a video supports your point when a Marth screws up and gets grabbed. Played perfectly, Marth never has to let them in. You either have to give a little and realize that you just saw a Ganon beat the world's best ICs, friendlies or not, or you have to immediately throw out all evidence supporting your point on the basis of "That guy did something unsafe and got grabbed. That wouldn't have happened if he were better."

When you work on what your apparent definition of a mistake is and what you think doesn't support the counter argument, you are going to remain smugly correct because you've built yourself an unassailable fortress. In doing that, you also keep yourself from learning why you could possibly be wrong and making progress toward figuring out the right answer.

You dig?

I don't know where I said "I assume no mistakes on the part of the ICs" show me where i said or even implied that.

unless youre talking about dropping chaingrabs, which is a really weak point. If the only reason you lost a match is because you dropped CGs, that's not you "making a mistake" (in the normal sense). That's you failing to properly execute a broken gimmick. if you're arguing that ICs are balanced by the players tendency to occasionally make mistakes, that's weird, but not even what I'm talking about. I'm just saying their gimmick is OP. There's no other gimmick in the game that, when performed correctly, is a guaranteed stock (presumably. a more interesting discussion would be how to get out of the CG.). Dropping a CG can not be compared to any other kind of mistake, because Dropping a cG is LITERALLY the difference between a stock and not a stock. Dropping 3 CGs is LITERALLY the difference between you winning and you potentially not winning.

thats the whole point. actually the ICs can make tons of mistakes because they have a broken gimmick to make up for it. That "best ICs in the world" must have had the flu or something that day because he was falling for basic ganon tricks over and over again, and he dropped like 7 chaingrabs. There is absolutely no argument against the fact that he would have won the match if he didn't drop those chaingrabs REGARDLESS of the fact that he was playing terribly. He was clearly being outplayed, yet he STILL COULD HAVE WON. And it's not like, oh man if he spaced better he could have won. No. You can literally watch the match and find the spots where he 100% could have taken stocks. That's the point.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

i dont think ive seen many ICs in JP but...
they dont chaingrab, they do wobbling and stuff tho.

 

[I SEE YOU]

no, Kakera and 9B chain grab & they are pretty damn good at it

 

[shaSLAM]

yeah that was just a horrible match though idk why that match supposedly proves something.

all im seeing is kakera sucking i gues the point of that is that if you face an ics player that plays horribly, drops about 10 grabs, falls for all of your gimmicks, and doesnt space at all, then you can probably beat them. cool point?

 

[shaSLAM]

i thought 9B was a DDD main???!!!!!

NOOOOOOOOOOO 9B!!!!!!!

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Dropping a CG can not be compared to any other kind of mistake, because Dropping a cG is LITERALLY the difference between a stock and not a stock. Dropping 3 CGs is LITERALLY the difference between you winning and you potentially not winning.

Let's phrase this differently:

Botching your spacing is LITERALLY the differnece between a stock and not a stock.

I have just said the EXACT same thing as you except I put the fault on another player for making a mistake. According to you, Marth spacing against ICs is a BROKEN GIMMICK because it doesn't allow the other player to touch them in a match.

thats the whole point. actually the ICs can make tons of mistakes because they have a broken gimmick to make up for it.

Guess what, ICs can't make tons of mistakes. They lose stocks FAST when they make a mistake. You're throwing out bull**** without substantiating it. In a high level match, when an ICs ****s up against a Diddy or a Snake or even freaking Falco they get hurt badly for it.

Also, contrary to your argument, every mistake does not equate to a grab. You play around it. You can make plenty of mistakes against ICs as they'll have a hard time capitalizing as long as you don't make the wrong mistake.

That "best ICs in the world" must have had the flu or something that day because he was falling for basic ganon tricks over and over again, and he dropped like 7 chaingrabs. There is absolutely no argument against the fact that he would have won the match if he didn't drop those chaingrabs REGARDLESS of the fact that he was playing terribly. He was clearly being outplayed, yet he STILL COULD HAVE WON. And it's not like, oh man if he spaced better he could have won. No. You can literally watch the match and find the spots where he 100% could have taken stocks. That's the point.

No, he didn't drop like 7. He dropped maybe 2 or 3. He was forced into a position where he couldn't chain grab Ganon despite getting the grab in multiple situations though.

There is absolutely no argument against the fact that he would have won the match if he didn't drop those chaingrabs

THIS SENTENCE SHOWS YOUR LOGICAL FALLACY!

There is absolutely no argument against the fact that ICs should never win a match if their opponent "lol spaces well."

Again, you are taking away EVERYTHING THE OTHER PLAYER DOES and pointing out the situations where ICs could have capitalized. You don't point out situations in which the reverse is true. You don't say that the ICs wouldn't have had the opportunity to land a grab if that player hadn't ****ed up. You ALWAYS assume mistakes on the part of the player who is playing against ICs and never on the other side. You just gave me a ****ing example, pal.

You're letting your personal vendetta over a character you dislike cloud your judgement in declaring what the character is capable of.

If you assume mistakes, you have the normal world where ICs are a good character, but aren't winning any nationals and don't look to be starting. If you assume a perfect game from both players, you are looking at a situation where ICs never land a grab. You can't mix and match the two to reach the conclusion you want.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

T1J, you won't get what I just said. I'm almost certain of it, so let me try another approach when that option inevitably fails.

If a player never makes a mistake, how does ICs ever make a grab?

 

[Duchock]

I think the point being made about ICs is that making a mistake means a stock or living.

When you make a mistake around, say, Wario or Snake, you maybe get a hefty hit on you, or a one-two for about 30%. With ICs, you get grabbed, and grabbed, and grabbed, and dead-ed. The huge disparity in punishing mistakes between ICs and everyone else is vastly different, and can make the difference between a good player doing well and a bad player doing well.



I have no stance on the issue.

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Oh certainly that's his PoV, but then he calls it a broken gimmick and he's flat wrong. I've got a fool proof plan to be understood, but it invloves a little back and forth.

 

[Duchock]

Sounds like a broken gimmick to me.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Let's phrase this differently:

Botching your spacing is LITERALLY the differnece between a stock and not a stock.

That's not always true. And you know it. Where as my statement about CGs IS true. if you complete a chaingrab you take a stock. are you saying that's not true? "if you space well, you take a stock" is a dumb statement that's obviously not true. what are you talking about?

Also, contrary to your argument, every mistake does not equate to a grab.

Didn't argue that.

No, he didn't drop like 7. He dropped maybe 2 or 3.

He dropped about 7 of them.

There is absolutely no argument against the fact that ICs should never win a match if their opponent "lol spaces well."

Again, not true. And in its untruthfulness it is not comparable to my statement about CGs, which is true. you're arguing something completely different and way less convincing than anyone else.

 

[DeLux]

That's not always true. And you know it. Where as my statement about CGs IS true. if you complete a chaingrab you take a stock. are you saying that's not true? "if you space well, you take a stock" is a dumb statement that's obviously not true. what are you talking about?

Objectively speaking, internal game mechanics disagree with your point of view. Many characters can space ICs to the point of being ungrabbable assuming even less than perfect spacing.

It's really not hard. Every grab setup is beaten by jump if there's a platform. That is not an exaggeration.

 

[theONEjanitor]

Yes it is, or else the ICs would not be high tier, nor would they even be worth playing at all. You can grab shield before they can jump. and you can grab people as they're falling.

and half your grabs are going to come from reads anyway. Which is going to happen in every game of brawl between good players. The difference is, the ICs get a stock when they do it.

 

[DeLux]

There's this thing called platform camping. It's pretty safe from grabs.

 

[theONEjanitor]

There's this thing called platform camping. It's pretty safe from grabs.

There's also a thing called stage-striking.

 

[DeLux]

???? What stages are you going to get struck to without platforms lol

Strike to BF/YI/LC, Ban FD, CP Brinstar/RC, Platform Camp until they hit your shield with an aerial or make a dumb mistake, platform drop out of shield and aerial them to separate leading to juggles, don't approach unless time is running out, kill Nana, take stock lead, camp harder

You just beat ICs

 

[theONEjanitor]

???? What stages are you going to get struck to without platforms lol

Strike to BF/YI/LC, Ban FD, CP Brinstar/RC, Platform Camp until they hit your shield with an aerial or make a dumb mistake, platform drop out of shield and aerial them to separate leading to juggles, don't approach unless time is running out, kill Nana, take stock lead, camp harder

You just beat ICs

uh you realize you get 3 strikes and a ban right?
you can pretty much force PS or castle siege, which aren't ideal, but still much more manageable (i.e you're not going to platform camp too well PS, and for 2 of 3 transformations, you wont be doing flawlessly it on siege either), considering that most people's characters don't want to go there either. yoshi's doesn't even seem that bad either but i dunno. unless your opponent decides to try his luck at SV. and you can ban brinstar. worse case you lose on RC, assuming you are fighting one of the few characters that actually likes that stage. the ICs can definitely be limited by the stage selection, but not as much as you suggest

 

[DeLux]

The starter of choice is matchup dependent. But you can't force stages on anyone by definition. You could in theory ALWAYS strike away PS1, CS, AND, FD if you wanted to.

I see you play snake. Why would you NOT want PS1? It's undoubtedly one of Snake's better starters in the matchup.

ICs will be at a disadvantage to a super majority of the cast on RC. Especially if you can platform drop out of shield and/or abuse the stage. Most characters that matter it's an autoloss, nearly indisputably. Arguing otherwise suggests you don't know a lot about high level ICs play.

 

[shaSLAM]

i love how you think platform camping the entire game is a viable thing.

you forget you also have to make attempts to hit the other player and put damage on them.

it sounds like youre being a little character biased right now to me.

if it was possible to have someone never approach you but still beat you with any character in the game and "space well enough" to the point where you can literally never hit them (what you are saying) then this same argument can be made about the entire cast.
but that kind of stuff isnt possible.

 

[DeLux]

...

In order to damage someone when they are platform camping, we have to aerial them. I have said about five times PLATFORM DROP OUT OF SHIELD and aerial them if they strong hitbox Uair or nair your shield.

Man up, get some tech skill, and stop losing to a bad character and blaming me for character bias. Honestly, one hit is all it takes to put on easily 50+ damage if you're good at the game and have a character with a halfway decent juggle game.

If you do what I said verbatim, you will poop on 90% of IC's because there isn't a way around it except for ICs to wait for your shield to drain. So you just need to not be dumb and waste your shield and react in the 15 frames it takes to get the height to Uair someone on BF platforms.

Pick MK and Tornado the crap out of them. Throw bombs like TL. It doesn't matter. They are a bad character with serious limitations against a competent player.

 

[theONEjanitor]

The starter of choice is matchup dependent. But you can't force stages on anyone by definition. You could in theory ALWAYS strike away PS1, CS, AND, FD if you wanted to.

I see you play snake. Why would you NOT want PS1? It's undoubtedly one of Snake's better starters in the matchup.

ICs will be at a disadvantage to a super majority of the cast on RC. Especially if you can platform drop out of shield and/or abuse the stage. Most characters that matter it's an autoloss, nearly indisputably. Arguing otherwise suggests you don't know a lot about high level ICs play.

well fighting a character that can kill me with a grab i would immediately without thinking spend 2 bans on fd and sv. esp as snake who can barely be in the air. but maybe thats not optimal, we would have to discuss it further. I don't really understand the snake/ics matchup apparently because Snake is definitely not platform camping anyone on any stage. I understand that snake can punish Ics ridiculously....but, not to sound like a broken record, ICs take a stock with a grab. Its pretty unanimous that snake has the advantage though. so i can't really comment on what the best stage for that matchup is, because apparently I don't get it.

 

[DeLux]

Cooking grendades is pretty good. There's a reason snake used to be considered a hard counter for ICs :\

 

[popsofctown]

Pick MK and Tornado the crap out of them.

Really DeLux.

It'd be one thing if someone else said that.

But really.

*goes to grieve his 70-30 on ICs*



P.S. No one responded to my complaints about the elo system :/

 

[#HBC | Ryker]

Janitor. What are you arguing? That the CG is a broken gimmick? Then you HAVE to include the **** the ICs has to put up with the get the spot.

Holy ****! ICs has a broken gimmick! Every time that their opponent makes a mistake that leaves them in a certain position where ICs can grab them AND have both characters close enough and in a position to follow it up, that's a stock! That's a whole THIRD OF YOUR LIFE!!!

Holy ****! Tager has a broken gimmick. Every time that his opponent makes a mistake that leaves them in a certain position AND he has a full super bar, that's a grab! That's a whole THREE QUARTERS OF YOUR LIFE!

Holy **** guys, this just in, Zangief must be broken! Oh wait, no he's not. He's never been. It's because, like every other grappler character ever, if you space well and don't fall for their gimmicks, you never get grabbed.

I must have overreacted because grapplers wreck me.