I'm 99% sure his Aura stops increasing after 168%.
I don't know the exact value, and that's why I (am going to) use 200% as the last placeholder percent. Whether it's 168 or 172 or 178 or whatever, I know he caps somewhere between 160-180, which is <200.
but wolf? you buggin kid. plus all of your non sonic character are super garbs anyway.
EDIT
better idea. you play lucario dont you? why dont you just lucario ditto? every lucario main HATES lucario dittoes.
If only because I have a strong desire to see Espy play 100% Sonic, I couldn't agree anymore. I also do not want to have to put up with watching a Lucario ditto, I don't even want to get into why dittos are dumb, and why that ditto MU is dumb in particular.
I think a major issue Espy is having is that he's forced to use fsmash/bair as punish moves. ALOT of the time fsmash/bair is used at like 90%-110% and Trela will live, and now his kill move is stale. I know that if his bair is already stale, he'll use it as his way of edge guarding and hitting Trela back off stage. Although he's building up damage, he's not able to kill til around 170%-200% EVERY STOCK.
This may just be player based and not really pertain to the MU itself, but Trela is VERY good at powershielding. When Espy charges spindash, Trela will do something (charge aura, dash, etc). When he seems to be a bad spot, Espy does spindash. Powershield -> Roll. Then Espy is stuck in a terrible spot on the other side of the stage, and Trela goes mad aggressive and builds up damage fast.
I've watched them play every set they've done (except this past weekend) and, even though I don't use Sonic or know how to control him, the matchup simply looks unwinnable to me. Espy is very smart. He had issues with tornado in 08, found ways around it. He had MU issues with G&W and Marth. He's comfortable in them now. He's tried EVERYTHING he can think of against Luacrio (including just about every CP available).
Lucario just seems unbeatable
Ah, but this is usually how the MU is done.
One thing that helps this matchup is Sonic's ability to stay uncommitted and force reactions at the same time.
Yes, it sucks that with every hit we do to him that doesn't kill him, he gets stronger. No, it doesn't help that Sonic already has problems killing. No, it doesn't help that Lucario happens to have a ton of range on his attacks, coupled with some decent shield pushback and shieldstun (assuming you block this guy...).
No matter what one will say though, I am not convinced that it plays any different at the core than any other one of Sonic's disadvantaged-to-neutral matchups in this game.
You pretty much
outplay the player.
Sonic's base stats are average at best. Everything he has good going for him is the players willing to work with his attributes. If people only looked at things like that and compared, even Ganon can outclass Sonic with his killpower.
The answer's in the frames, I know it.
Uhm anyway, I should start making hard replies.
Yeah, Bair is usually staled because only that move (aside from Uair) has the range to keep Sonic safe, and the speed to get the job done; plus the damage-racking capabilities. Fair requires you get up right in the opponent's face, and Uair is fairly linear in where it hits, and Lucario won't always be above you; Nevermind that the timing to outspace his Dair directly is strict (but doable!).
FSmash is too slow to use safely, and I've been noticing that a lot from Espy when he plays Trela that he'll try to read his rolls with FSmash, misses, and it just goes downhill from there. I won't even bother nitpicking times it (looks like it) is thrown out simply out of desperation or a messed up input. I'd like to critique Espy and help him out, but at the same time I don't wanna insult him; since I know he's an intelligent person and can figure most of this stuff out by himself. I'll get him the frame data after SATs are done, and if he asks, I/Sonic boards can take a hard look at his videos and point out his flaws. I think he can agree with me that even the best of us can't play perfect 100% of the time.
Regardless, about FSmash...
FSmash is a huge risk for mediocre reward. It still is an idea, but only after you've figured out your opponents' habits and
punish, because that's all FSmash is good for in this matchup.
Having that said, we all know Lucario won't be consistently dying anytime before 150%. 130% if you happen to get a nice FSmash read, but unless otherwise...
Which I'll address in the next quote.
Even better is when and if you DO manage the first KO, now you have to repeat that entire process all over again.
Except this time, he starts off STRONGER than he did on his previous stock.
Ah, very good then. At least I'm not alone in thinking that whoever loses the first stock will have a ball of a time. Lucario only happens to have it easier in that department too (nothing new).
I know that you know that if you happen to get the first kill, the only thing you can do at that point is hold on to that stock as long as you possibly can, right? There isn't any way anybody can say that Sonic can get a second kill before he himself ends up dying, and even if he does... *shiver* Double stock down aura boost...
Anyway, now depending on what your damage is at assuming he lost the first stock, you may or may not get killed by any one of his attacks at low percent, because aura does reset itself by that point. It's not much, but it is just a little bit of leeway.
Of course, if you want to make every second count, the goal is to get as much damage in as you can before you die, then repeat the cycle again on the second stock. Otherwise it's just as you said, if you kill him and you don't hit him once, all you've done is given him
even more power. It sucks, but that's the way this matchup plays out.
Think of it this way though. You managed to get the first kill, and if you can keep that consistency going then you should not have much trouble doing it one or two more times. Then 5 more times in total assuming a 2/3 set.
[collapse="theorycraft time/assimilation"]Now what I want to know is...
When both of you are down one stock, what's a better idea? Are you to die first, and then kill Lucario so that he gets a 1-stock up Aura deboost, or do you risk riding it out like before and kill him first followed by tacking on as much damage?
Both will have a different process, but the former has different risks. It will only work if you can get the kill on him soon after, otherwise it becomes a dangerous (and failed) guessing game if the next time you kill him; he gets 60-90% damage on you. That's not hard considering that on Lucario's 2nd stock, he'll likely be near the aura cap, which is bad enough.
However, the latter suggests that you are willing to play the guessing game later, because Lucario will have more power at the end, and when it gets to the wire pressure can get to a player and that's less leeway towards the end.
I think however it would just be better to give him that 1-stock down Aura boost, and play as normal. Think about it, you've gotten him down to 1 stock. That itself is an accomplishment, so why not play like you've been doing to get to this point, and carry that gameplay to the bittersweet end? Yes, I'm assuming that a player can stay this consistent throughout a match, and maybe a set.
I can see the logic for intentionally dying first, but then it's ultimately up to the player to decide if he's willing to take the risk of perfect play and keep himself at 0% until Lucario himself goes to his last stock. It's just in this case, there really is no room for error.[/collapse]
[collapse="talking about the mental and physical pressure"]Another thing I want addressed is just how possible this is.
I can advocate for this being done once. Consistency is easier said to perform than it is to acquire though.
So you happen to win the first match... how about the second? Or the third? If you lose the second match, all you've done is wore yourself out, and we all know Lucario doesn't have to put in anywhere near the same amount of work Sonic has to in order to win.
And for just a 2/3 match? How about in Winner's/Loser's/Grand finals? It becomes a matter of doing it X amount of times. best 3 out of 5, and having to win another set? Worst case scenario is that you will have to play fifteen matches and win nine of them.
Is anybody else seeing where I'm going with this?
I should make it clear anyway since that can be interpreted differently.
I'm not specifically encouraging people to not use Sonic for this matchup. I'll be d***ed if I do. I don't care if I'm the only person here willing to do it, but I am not afraid to put in whatever work I have to to get to where I want to be.
No one will stop me from becoming the best (Sonic) player! Anybody who has the same dream can get in line, but if I myself am not willing to play one matchup through and through, I'm giving up on
my dream.
... But oh boy, I'm not going to come off arrogant/ignorant here. Some of us here have that same dream. Others have variations of it. I know Goggles just wants to represent himself for example, and...
Well, I can only hope Speed is on the other side and is thinking like I am for the most part. I just really hate speaking on behalf of other people because I don't know that one person like that one person knows themselves. I can only speak for myself 100%, but regardless-
We're all working to get better though, at least that much we can all say "yay" to. We are however, united by this one character; and channeling all our attention to Sonic allows us one way to find ways as players to improve. Others will find different/better ways in other tactics, or characters, but very little relevance here.
I stay here, talking about ideas/strategies to make this matchup a possibility, not only for myself, but for everybody else too. I know Espy is not the only one that struggles, and I'm not saying I have it (much) better than he does. We're only two people dammit, I wish I had a bigger headcount of how many people want to see this done.
... There must be some reason you are here, reading my WoT now.
Is it because you like me?
For the most, I doubt it. That's just a bonus of being a part of this community I bet, and the more likely reason you are willing to put up with me is because you can agree with me that you would be delighted to see Sonic beat the living @#$% out of Lucario (for this case), yes?
If not, why are you reading my WoT again? O_o
*Ahem.*
So I got a bit off track. I was talking about how a lot can go through one's mind in a certain scenario earlier. Is it really nothing more than a pipe dream that a Sonic will win a set; or grand finals match, against a Lucario?
Supposedly no.
Let me use ratios to prove my idea.
Whether one person says this matchup is 6:4, or 7:3 in favor of Lucario, this means that six or seven times out of ten, Lucario will win. The other three or four times, somehow, Sonic is the victor.
What is it though? Why? How? Everybody assumes it's not an auto-loss, otherwise known as a 100:0 matchup. Nobody has said that, but if Sonic can still win, how does he do it? Why does he do it? Is it truly nothing more than something being overlooked about Lucario's strengths, or Sonic's inherit weaknesses?
If I'm trying to stay optimistic, I'll say it's somewhere between 6:4 and 7:3, and that there is a way to pull the ratio into Sonic's favor, and if the player can stay consistent, make it turn out to be 100:0 in favor of Sonic.
Ridiculous? Call me crazy, but matchup ratios are drawn simply because there is room for error on both accounts, and we are to assume high/top level play. If we were assuming perfect play, then it becomes a stupid debate on how both characters play when neither makes mistakes, and that there can only be 100:0 matchups in favor of the other character with the better stats/frame-data; which in this case is Lucario.
I refuse to let it come to that though, @#$% everybody else that gets in my/Sonic's way. *fist clutch.*
Dreams don't form just to have them die...[/collapse]
