Absolute charge shot hit (40% combo)! :D

[Hive]

ok so i've been messing around with this since the zigma combo and the follow ups rohins provided for them.... I was bummed though that the ffzair to jab to cs at high percentages and the utilt to jab to w/e at low percentages didn't work well as we hoped however (due to the opponent being able to shield the cs/jab after they hit the ground, and the ability to jump out at the end of the hitstun, which while in small windows of time the enemy ended up doing instinctively in my experience)

but it never occured to me until today that the charge shot DOES have an time it will hit absolutely!
at first i tried following the ff zair with a fully charged shot at around 110% (one of the "bounce" focus point from the zigma stuff) on snake and found that with a fully charged shot the hitstun is such, and the size of the charge shot is such that they can't jump out of it... unfortunately though they could shield the hit when they touch ground....
but then I remembered the dair at around 40% damage also has the "bounce" effect so I tried that-

it turns out that around 40% damage following a fully charged charge shot after a dair (shff'd) is unstoppable! the opponent is unable to jump out of it, or find ground fast enough to shield... undegenerated it does 40% damage :D
kwl!


(i've tested this on live players btw in matches AND in training after I have given them warning as well it really does seem to be unstoppable ^^ - it takes some time to learn to "bounce" the opponent in the proper direction though ^^)



summary:
shff dair to ground, immediately to charge shot will hit unstoppably at percentages around 40% damage and will hit for 40% damage undegenerated.(opponent can't jump out of it, or land on the ground (can't shield) before he gets hit- is what i tested with my bf, with snake, on fd, and in matches on fd and battlefield, i'm not sure how move degeneration will effect this though)
also, I think, as kniht found, it might be possible to air dodge this though if the opponent does it mid-bounce right* before the cs hits....


kniht really hot info. on the technic :D still in progress...

Thus far:
Testing only if it can be JUMPED out of because it would appear all of the characters thus far can Air Dodge RIGHT after this, might get them when they land, Idk, haven't tested that because of varying air dodge timings etc.

Any way thus far, SHFFDair buffered CS - Jump escape only (Rough %'s):

Red = Wasn't able to get the CS off very often.
Yellow = Was able to get the CS off about 50% of the time give or take
Green = Was able to get the CS off most of the time
Had most success = The % at which I could replicate the hit most frequently.

Character Name -- What % pops them off the ground -- %'s most likely to hit -- Notes
Mario - 35% -- 40% - 54%
Luigi - 35% -- 39% - 52%
Peach - 33% -- 33% - 46%
Bowser - 41% -- 41% - 64%
DK - 40%
Diddy - 34%
Yoshi - 38% -- 38% - 59% -- 38% (only?) his DJ Invincibility frames kick in and you can catch him in an UB for added %
Wario - 38% -- 38%-62%
Link - 37% -- 37% - 65%
Sheik - 32% -- 42% - 50%
Zelda - 32% - N/A - Had most success around ~36%
Ganondorf - 38% -- 38 - 65%
Toon Link - 34% -- 40%-52%
Pit - 34% -- 34% - 57%
Samus - 38% - N/A - Had most success from 38% - 40%
ZSS - 31% -- 41% - 52% -- Had semi success from 35% - 39%
IC - 34% -- 46% - 52% -- Had semi success from 40% - 45%
R.O.B. - 37% -- 37%-56%
Kirby - 30% -- 30% - 45% -- HARD TO HIT!
MK - 31% -- 31% - 50% -- HARD TO HIT!
DDD - 39% -- 39% - 74% --From 39% - 48% he can't jump out of it and unless he air dodges he will bounce, opens him for a jab lock
Olimar - 31% - 31% - 50%
Fox - 31% -- 37% - 51%
Falco - 31% -- 31% - 57% --From 31% - 35% he can't jump out of it and unless he air dodges he will bounce, opens him up for a jab lock





All tests performed via turbo controller + big toe on the jump button.
SH Dair
Press turbo jump
FF buffer CS

I run several tests on shots that I'm unsure about until I start getting a solid result.

Results may vary with DI (how far away from you they get)

 

[-Crews-]

hmmmm, very intresting find. since samus has such trouble killing, big damage like this is very usefull.

 

[MRS1]

NICE!!!!! Samus scores again during the holidays! Thank you Samus Claus! (Hive I mean)

seriously this is really awesome.

 

[KingChaos]

holy crap good idea. Hive you so sexi ^_^

 

[Sago]

at low percents you can fall into them with a uair into charge shote dashattack upb nice situational combo nice find sexy

 

[J4pu]

Grab Air release to Charged shot
Merry Christmas Samus mains

 

[Hive]

Grab Air release to Charged shot
Merry Christmas Samus mains

hmmm... idk can't this be jumped out of or powershielded? at least in my experience...

 

[-Crews-]

hmmm... idk can't this be jumped out of or powershielded? at least in my experience...

Ya im pretty sure this isnt full proof.

 

[n00b]

He was being facetious. Those darned Falco mains..

 

[Hive]

ok so i practiced this more today!
good news is that this tech ***** *** when you land the dair right
the bad news is that its fairly difficult to be able to get spacing right so that the sh dair ends up bouncing the person in front of you. also it has a fairly small range of percentages where it will work (maybe 40-50% until the person bounces too high) so if you mess up the dair, even though you save your cs it probably won't be open again as a free cs for the rest of that stock.... however definitely worth learning imo ^^ its always fun to hit your opponent from 40-80% in the space of a second. the dair is actually pretty simple to land imo in mid match... its just hitting it right that is fairly difficult to get right at first ^^

@j4pu- oh lol sorry I missed that ^^ <- i don't have a sense of humor ^^

 

[n00b]

@j4pu- oh lol sorry I missed that ^^ <- i don't have a sense of humor ^^

lol nevermind, he was being serious. i honestly didn't expect that from the samus boards.

 

[Rohins]

This is delicious.

 

[Crystanium]

This is delicious.

How delicious is it? I hope it tastes like chocolate cake.

 

[Hive]

This means that unless your opponent perfect-sheilds, he or she will be pushed back but have enough time and close range to shield-grab you. You'd better come up with a different strategy.

i'm not exactly sure what you mean? but the combo is unblockable once the dair hits, the opponent can't shield after that bc he is in the air, and he has too much hitstun and too little time to jump out of it or airdodge.

 

[0RLY]

at low percents you can fall into them with a uair into charge shote dashattack upb nice situational combo nice find sexy

Uair does not have enough hitstun for that to work, on a grounded opponent at least. On an aerial opponent, they would have to be close enough to the ground so that if they attempt an aerial, they would land before the hitbox comes out. After that, landing lag, followed by their fastest ground attack's start-up lag. Assuming the frame data in my sig is correct, this combo would only work on the slowest of brawl's characters.

Grab Air release to Charged shot
Merry Christmas Samus mains

Works on Wario, unless he lands on a Platform. Fully charged waft's super armor might save him, never tested it.

i'm not exactly sure what you mean? but the combo is unblockable once the dair hits, the opponent can't shield after that bc he is in the air, and he has too much hitstun and too little time to jump out of it or airdodge.

This works, though I'd rather use another dair right after the first one and save my charge shot for when I can actually get a KO. To maximize effectiveness, you'll want to land as soon as you hit them, allowing you to follow up ASAP.

This 2-hit combo makes Samus' dair look like it doesn't have a lot of hitstun. It does. It's just that bouncing your opponent off the ground replaces the dair's hitstun with "bounce off the ground" hitstun. The same kind of hitstun you get when you get stage spiked, though bouncing off the side of a stage produces more hitstun than bouncing off the ground. If this was Melee, the hitstun would be the same...

Do you guys love how I test stuff extensively before I post? I just learned something in the second to last sentence in the above paragraph. So... yeah... we have a combo.


OH YEAH! If the frame data in my sig is correct, this combo would also work with a Super Missile when you don't have a charge shot ready. Then again, fsmash deals more damage and comes out faster. I'ma stick to my guns and just attempt a second dair... even though it's slower than shooting a charge shot. Another dair would give you a chance to tack on more damage without using your chargeshot. The highest damage dealing combo would be to either:

SHFF Dair (15%) → Charge Shot (26%) → Dash Attack (6% or 10%) → [jab (3%)] → Screw Attack (~13%) =
~60-67%

SHFF Dair (15%) → SHFF Dair (13%) → Jump Uair (~11%) → [leads to more projectiles] =
~39%+

You could Fair in place of Uair, but I've always liked Uair more than Fair.

 

[Hive]

OH YEAH! If the frame data in my sig is correct, this combo would also work with a Super Missile when you don't have a charge shot ready. Then again, fsmash deals more damage and comes out faster. I'ma stick to my guns and just attempt a second dair... even though it's slower than shooting a charge shot. Another dair would give you a chance to tack on more damage without using your chargeshot. The highest damage dealing combo would be to either:

SHFF Dair (15%) → Charge Shot (26%) → Dash Attack (6% or 10%) → [jab (3%)] → Screw Attack (~13%) =
~60-67%

SHFF Dair (15%) → SHFF Dair (13%) → Jump Uair (~11%) → [leads to more projectiles] =
~39%+

You could Fair in place of Uair, but I've always liked Uair more than Fair.

yes these are pretty good follow ups Orly, kwl finds ^^
but not true combos after the cs hit right or are they, I haven't actually tested follow ups bc I thought afterwards they could be shielded....?
anyways, either way, still kwl

 

[0RLY]

If Samus can grab after a Charge Shot... Samus can do ANYTHING after a Charge Shot. Also, you ALWAYS gotta follow up! If not, you're pretty much playing "teh spammerer's Melee Fox". Space, attack, space, attack, repeat. Just because you risk hitting a shield and getting grabbed doesn't mean you can follow up in a way to minimize your risk to get shield grabbed. Lastly, an airborne opponent can't grab, so follow up as much as you can without ending up above your opponent. Being above people is always a horrible situation to be in.

 

[Hive]

of course ^^ i never meant to imply that I don't follow these up afterwards ^^ I was only saying that I was only trying to find out what the true combo was...
these are kwl though... the dash attack to jab to screw attack reminds me of the "zigma" application that rohins found ^^

 

[n00b]

^ naw dash attack -> jab -> up b is totally different lol. the jab just juggles them i nthe air for an extra few %.

i have a pretty interesting way of ensuring a chargeshot.. its a combination of this + z1gma stuff... but i'm keeping it under wraps until further testing is concluded

 

[J4pu]

Well i was so sure that Samus could air release MK from a grab and then get a guaranteed CS, so I went and tested it out. Now i feel more sorry for Samus than I did before: 1. Samus grabs at waist height so she loses the only real advantage (that i know of) that height gives ; 2. The CS takes longer to travel that distance and hit than Falco's boost smash.

I feel sorry for you Samus mains.

 

[n00b]

Because Samus needs to maintain her voluptuous and lean figure underneath her powersuit, she's on a no carb diet. If she had even a small portion of the bread you Falco mains had, she would be high tier.

 

[Villi]

Maybe if you connect with lots of dairs, it'll be weak enough to combo into charge shot at kill percents.

?_? Just a thought.

 

[Hive]

Maybe if you connect with lots of dairs, it'll be weak enough to combo into charge shot at kill percents.

?_? Just a thought.

this is actually a really good idea villi! ^^ i still haven't tested move decay at all, I didn't even realize how useful that might be

Because Samus needs to maintain her voluptuous and lean figure underneath her powersuit, she's on a no carb diet. If she had even a small portion of the bread you Falco mains had, she would be high tier.

lol

 

[Hive]

I also practiced this a ton more yesterday too
its very hard to get the opponent to bounce right though imo, something that didn't really come up in testing before... ^^ however it still works, from what I'm aware of...
it is still a good option, however, not something to rely on either

 

[0RLY]

Well i was so sure that Samus could air release MK from a grab and then get a guaranteed CS, so I went and tested it out. Now i feel more sorry for Samus than I did before: 1. Samus grabs at waist height so she loses the only real advantage (that i know of) that height gives ; 2. The CS takes longer to travel that distance and hit than Falco's boost smash.

I feel sorry for you Samus mains.

You can utilt if MK tries to use Dair, if he tries to Nair (maybe jump) it won't work.

Because Samus needs to maintain her voluptuous and lean figure underneath her powersuit, she's on a no carb diet. If she had even a small portion of the bread you Falco mains had, she would be high tier.

I lol'd pretty hard.

Maybe if you connect with lots of dairs, it'll be weak enough to combo into charge shot at kill percents.

?_? Just a thought.

Doesn't work for predictability reasons. Dair does a lot of damage, so you would have to start before 20/30%. You can't really spam a slow move.

 

[J4pu]

woohoo, I'm learning the wonders of SPAMus
ignore

 

[J4pu]

Maybe if you connect with lots of dairs, it'll be weak enough to combo into charge shot at kill percents.
?_? Just a thought.

I'm pretty sure they would tech the second, or at least the third Dair.
EDIT- nvm I get what you were saying, I thought you meant continuous Dairs into the ground lol.

You can utilt if MK tries to use Dair, if he tries to Nair (maybe jump) it won't work.

I'm not quite sure I understand what you are saying.
If you mean that after an air release you can do those things, you are waaaaayyyyy off. (MK lands quite far away)
If you meant something else, then you completely lost me and should explain yourself better.

 

[n00b]

Holding MK off the ledge:
Air grab release -> unplug opponent's controller -> followup dair
Works 100% of the time

 

[-Crews-]

Holding MK off the ledge:
Air grab release -> unplug opponent's controller -> followup dair
Works 100% of the time

hahaha lolz

 

[Sago]

used this today in tournament...very effective. king chaos saw

 

[KingChaos]

lol yep I also got it off a marth main in tourny thank you Hive I luv you ^__^.

 

[Z1GMA]

Sorry.. Not game breaking ;P
JK, Awesome Hive!

I'm gonna try it.

 

[Orichalcum]

This worked up to 70% in training mode against a snake. ffdair sh chargeshot. 2 consecutive hits

 

[Hive]

thanx guys ^^

 

[Pi]

I'm posting here so I can't back out
But I'm gonna go to training w/ my turbo remote and turbo the shield button to test when it's escape able for each and every character.
I'll post %'s up in some hours I guess.

 

[Miles.]

shff dair immediately to charge shot = kairi combo
(Hive's real name = Kairi)

kai combo seems to flow better.

 

[n00b]

i got a combo that combines all of your combos.

the z1gkairohin00b combo.

0rly and rohins know wsup.

 

[Pi]

Thus far:
Testing only if it can be JUMPED out of because it would appear all of the characters thus far can Air Dodge RIGHT after this, might get them when they land, Idk, haven't tested that because of varying air dodge timings etc.

Any way thus far, SHFFDair buffered CS - Jump escape only (Rough %'s):

Red = Wasn't able to get the CS off very often.
Yellow = Was able to get the CS off about 50% of the time give or take
Green = Was able to get the CS off most of the time
Had most success = The % at which I could replicate the hit most frequently.

Character Name -- What % pops them off the ground -- %'s most likely to hit -- Notes
Mario - 35% -- 40% - 54%
Luigi - 35% -- 39% - 52%
Peach - 33% -- 33% - 46%
Bowser - 41% -- 41% - 64%
DK - 40% -- 50% - 68%
Diddy - 34% -- 38% - 53%
Yoshi - 38% -- 38% - 59% -- 38% (only?) his DJ Invincibility frames kick in and you can catch him in an UB for added %
Wario - 38% -- 38%-62%
Link - 37% -- 37% - 65%
Sheik - 32% -- 42% - 50%
Zelda - 32% - N/A - Had most success around ~36%
Ganondorf - 38% -- 38 - 65%
Toon Link - 34% -- 40%-52%
Pit - 34% -- 34% - 57%
Samus - 38% - N/A - Had most success from 38% - 40%
ZSS - 31% -- 41% - 52% -- Had semi success from 35% - 39%
IC - 34% -- 46% - 52% -- Had semi success from 40% - 45%
R.O.B. - 37% -- 37%-56%
Kirby - 30% -- 30% - 45% -- HARD TO HIT!
MK - 31% -- 31% - 50% -- HARD TO HIT!
DDD - 39% -- 39% - 74% --From 39% - 48% he can't jump out of it and unless he air dodges he will bounce, opens him for a jab lock
Olimar - 31% - 31% - 50%
Fox - 31% -- 37% - 51%
Falco - 31% -- 31% - 57% --From 31% - 35% he can't jump out of it and unless he air dodges he will bounce, opens him up for a jab lock





All tests performed via turbo controller + big toe on the jump button.
SH Dair
Press turbo jump
FF buffer CS

I run several tests on shots that I'm unsure about until I start getting a solid result.

Results may vary with DI (how far away from you they get)

 

[Hive]

<stuff that kniht said>

nice stuff kniht ^^
I hadn't realized that air dodge was effective at evading the sh'd cs I'm sorry I missed that in tests. T.T...
also for the cs i actually didn't sh it in testing it some of the times as well, i just daired <hit ground/cancelled lag> and charge shot I'm not sure if that effects anything though (i'm fairly sure its more inescapable than shing the cs though, but I'm not sure if it can be airdodged?) also I tested it on snake which i think its inescapable by jumping on either way......

I had tested both ways actually thoroughly with my bf beforehand and it didn't seem like he could bc of the stun when the cs was grounded , I didn't think there was enough time to start the dodge animation..... but maybe he was just dodging at the wrong time? idk....

the percents are very good ^^ anyways ty for putting so much time into this!
(I still hope its inescapable... but now i'm a bit skeptical lol i'm starting to think you may be right that airdodging right before the cs hit will be able to avoid it.. dang )

 

[Pi]

nice stuff kniht ^^
I hadn't realized that air dodge was effective at evading the sh'd cs I'm sorry I missed that in tests. T.T...
also for the cs i actually didn't sh it in testing it some of the times as well, i just daired <hit ground/cancelled lag> and charge shot I'm not sure if that effects anything though (i'm fairly sure its more inescapable than shing the cs though, but I'm not sure if it can be airdodged?) also I tested it on snake which i think its inescapable by jumping on either way......

I had tested both ways actually thoroughly with my bf beforehand and it didn't seem like he could bc of the stun when the cs was grounded , I didn't think there was enough time to start the dodge animation..... but maybe he was just dodging at the wrong time? idk....

the percents are very good ^^ anyways ty for putting so much time into this!
(I still hope its inescapable... but now i'm a bit skeptical lol i'm starting to think you may be right that airdodging right before the cs hit will be able to avoid it.. dang )

Well if you want to see how fast it can be airdodged go into training and set the computer level to 9. Put him to on 'stop' and SH dair him. He'll airdodge as soon as possible.

If it is escapeable this way the window is very tiny because when you air-dodge it cancels when you land so you probably will catch them here. Air dodge also has a lot of time in which it leaves you vulnerable to attack so as I said the window for escape is very tiny.

Also umm not sure what you mean by SH CS. Basically what I was doing was SH -> Dair -> FF + buffered CS.
That was pretty much the fastest way I could get it to come out. I'm pretty sure there are different timings (frame perfect) to get it to come out faster etc. etc.

I wouldn't worry about if this is truly inescapable or not because the likelihood of any of the green/yellow (Or even some of the reds) actually missing getting hit by the CS is pretty low. It's a good chain either way.

In some cases air dodging might make it inescapable .