A6M Zero and FenrirVII's Fox Conversation.

[A6M Zero]

A conversation that myself and FenrirVII are partaking in AIM, this is the bulk of what we've already gone through, and it's more true and more practical and factual than any of the ranting you'll get from the melee-complainers and ignorant BRoomers. Feel free to talk to me or Tmeleeguy through pm's or on AIM, I also have msn.

Here we go, unedited.





TMeleeguy (10:03:36 PM): I know....
A6MZeroSmash (10:04:32 PM): you know what though
A6MZeroSmash (10:05:02 PM): Fox becomes, and I pretty much mean it, 4x better just by making VERY slight delays in your approac
A6MZeroSmash (10:05:19 PM): if there's anything I've noticed playing with Fox I haven't said a lot already, it's this:
A6MZeroSmash (10:05:37 PM): Opponents will condition to Fox's approaches FAST, and they will NOT break their habits easiy.
TMeleeguy (10:05:45 PM): I know...it's ridiculous...
A6MZeroSmash (10:05:50 PM): like
A6MZeroSmash (10:06:16 PM): if you do a single shine above your opponents head to delay your drill, 80% of the time you'll catch them dropping their shield
A6MZeroSmash (10:06:39 PM): if you short hop or even full jump down on them without drilling, you can just usmash them when they'd expect to shield grab you
A6MZeroSmash (10:07:14 PM): to be honest
A6MZeroSmash (10:07:37 PM): when you're in those sort of situations, I'd go as far to say not doing ANYTHING during your short hop is better than a shorthop airdodge
A6MZeroSmash (10:07:49 PM): your opponent sees the airdodge and they react to when your open
A6MZeroSmash (10:07:59 PM): your opponent see you comign down to drill them, they react to the WRONG THING
TMeleeguy (10:08:19 PM): the air dodge thing isn't that useful, no
A6MZeroSmash (10:08:40 PM): It's absolutely AMAZING the combinations you can do just by slightly varying your chain each time.
TMeleeguy (10:08:46 PM): oh yeah.
TMeleeguy (10:09:08 PM): dude, Fox is a GOOD character with one legit counter character. I don't get what the big deal with everybody is
A6MZeroSmash (10:09:24 PM): I've got a video of me doing 95% (then a one move break to make it 116%) on a guy just by varying up my combo a little bit
A6MZeroSmash (10:09:40 PM): and I mean, ****, dude
A6MZeroSmash (10:09:47 PM): If you take two stocks on 70% combos
A6MZeroSmash (10:09:56 PM): you just cannot lose if you play well
A6MZeroSmash (10:10:37 PM): There is NO, I mean NO character in this game that has the same calibre of linear killing
A6MZeroSmash (10:11:26 PM): Fox can get an opponent to a kill level with no more then 3 or 4 decent combos, and that's within every average Fox's potential.
A6MZeroSmash (10:11:41 PM): A good Fox can do over 60% with one bloody opening
A6MZeroSmash (10:12:08 PM): and after that, you're almost ready to kill with ONE, EASILY LANDED move
TMeleeguy (10:13:04 PM): and not to mention that he has two of the best smashes in the game.
TMeleeguy (10:13:10 PM): tell me something.
A6MZeroSmash (10:13:16 PM): sure
TMeleeguy (10:13:21 PM): Wolf and MK are all about the dsmash out of shield
TMeleeguy (10:13:23 PM): why not Fox?
TMeleeguy (10:13:30 PM): we don't even have to turn around
A6MZeroSmash (10:13:51 PM): I do that some times, not enough
A6MZeroSmash (10:14:00 PM): it's just more things that Fx can do admirabley
A6MZeroSmash (10:14:03 PM): Fox is underrated.
TMeleeguy (10:14:06 PM): um...yeah
TMeleeguy (10:14:31 PM): and it's good to hear that from somebody else, because I'm getting this huge "fenrir is overoptimistic" thing going...
TMeleeguy (10:14:34 PM): and that's just not true
A6MZeroSmash (10:14:44 PM): Fox does almost EVERYTHING in this game well, and he does some other things the best.
TMeleeguy (10:15:02 PM): and then Scotu comes in and is like "fox is terrible" and kills the convo.
A6MZeroSmash (10:15:06 PM): pfft
TMeleeguy (10:15:12 PM): it's really annoying
TMeleeguy (10:15:41 PM): I can't count the number of times I've seen "Fox is a mediocre character with a mediocre moveset" ... uh.... yeah, that kills at 90% against half the cast
A6MZeroSmash (10:15:47 PM): I KNOW
A6MZeroSmash (10:15:49 PM): pfft
A6MZeroSmash (10:15:51 PM): here's what Fox is
A6MZeroSmash (10:16:16 PM): Fox is a character that has been given every tool you could want to kill your opponent, and all that he asks is that you do it ****ing right.
TMeleeguy (10:16:37 PM): and can combo to 60 easily... and more than that without too much effort. he also has a semi- auto move refiller...and two usable smashes... and a couple aerial kill moves. a very adaptable recovery, and good edgeguarding options... how is that mediocre?
A6MZeroSmash (10:18:33 PM): he has GOOD reactional ability, he has GOOD suprises, he has BRILLIANTLY deceptive approach options, he has a lack of experience AGAINST him, he has ONE truly dangerous counterpick and only 3 or 4 serious uphill battles, most of which are against relatively unseen characters.
A6MZeroSmash (10:19:20 PM): All these people want is high priority and high range.
A6MZeroSmash (10:19:26 PM): they want broken recoveries and insane gimps
TMeleeguy (10:19:32 PM): ok...matches that I think are legitimately bad for him:
Pika
ZSS
Sheik (ish....not too worried about it really)
Lucario
Luigi
A6MZeroSmash (10:19:43 PM): Wario is tough.
TMeleeguy (10:19:47 PM): that is true
A6MZeroSmash (10:19:51 PM): that's about it.
TMeleeguy (10:19:52 PM): forgot that one
TMeleeguy (10:19:58 PM): kirby is no more than a 4-6
TMeleeguy (10:20:02 PM): nothing terrible
A6MZeroSmash (10:20:07 PM): yknow what, **** it, there's more true material then anywhere else on those **** boards.
A6MZeroSmash (10:20:20 PM): I'm posting some of this conversation.
TMeleeguy (10:20:23 PM): please do

 

[KheldarVII]

I, for one, call to vote that the entire (regulars) list of Fox posters here get together and have a big AIM chat once a week.

 

[_X_]

A conversation that myself and FenrirVII are partaking in AIM, this is the bulk of what we've already gone through, and it's more true and more practical and factual than any of the ranting you'll get from the melee-complainers and ignorant BRoomers.

Here we go, unedited.

And bricks were ****.

Fox is underrated.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I'm really tired of people who don't know what they're talking about feeling free to express longwinded opinions about a character that I do know to some extent... and call him limited without full knowledge.

I'm going to start taking a more forward stand on this. We need a person or two or three to step it up in tourneys...and I'm doing what I can down here... just keep playing... if we could get a major Fox player out there, though... it would greatly help...


Anyways, for anybody who cares enough to write me, my AIM is listed up there...and you can at any time. be my guest.

 

[-Mars-]

Lol at fenrir talking about Scotu. But yes, people are annoying with their opinions of Fox that are based off misinformation and SBR propoganda. Fox has so many options that he can utilize.......it's scary.

Once your at 90% and above, your opponent is scared. Foxs' upsmash strikes fear into people, there's not many moves in the game that can do that.

edit: oh and Fenrir within 8 months I will be in college down in the Louisiana area and rest assured I will be repping Fox at tournaments.

 

[Xiivi]

For the record, my opinion comes from tournament play. I just proved Fox's worth with a top4 this past weekend (sadly I had to use MK as well, can't help the fact the guy who got 2nd mained Pikachu). Anyone else care to step it up?

 

[A6M Zero]

You bet we are, Xiivi. I know Fenrir VII is kicking *** in all tournaments down in Fl, and I'm competing in all major British Columbia tournaments from this date forward, ready to win them publicize Fox.

 

[-Mars-]

For the record, my opinion comes from tournament play. I just proved Fox's worth with a top4 this past weekend (sadly I had to use MK as well, can't help the fact the guy who got 2nd mained Pikachu). Anyone else care to step it up?

You got vids we can take a look at? I'm starving for decent Fox vids, Luciens are all outdated.

 

[Xiivi]

You got vids we can take a look at? I'm starving for decent Fox vids, Luciens are all outdated.

There was no recording at the tournament, sad I know. I'm actually hosting a tournament this weekend, and I will be recording the matches. Sadly...I'll kind of be hosting and not participating. The teams matches were very good though (my teammate and I got 2nd). Sheik + Fox is an amazing team actually. The only time we didn't use that was against the team that won (of course there was the Pikachu player on that team, so I went MK, as did my teammate as Sheik + MK doesn't work). A funny thing of note, the last match of the grand finals for teams, we decided to try Sheik + Fox anyway, and did best that way. I guess I shouldn't have been afraid of the Pikachu in teams after all?

 

[FzeroX]

I really need to jump into these convos >.> I need to talk to smart ppl with out the the dumb ones posting in between. I took note of your guys aims, may try to catch you soon.

 

[RPK]

Wait...Lucario?!? Really? One of the people in my crew mains Lucario and I dont have too much trouble against him...Its actually pretty even.

And imo, you shouldnt be afraid of chaingrabs in teams...Yes, they still hurt...A lot, but you have your partner there to help get you out before he brings you up to high. But yeah, a group Fox discussion would be pretty sick

 

[V3RMILLION]

I'll be going to HOBO11 this weekend and I'm going to main Fox. Hopefully I'll place high enough to prove some naysayers wrong.

**** that, I'm going to kick so much *** people will be all, "What the hell? Is this Melee Fox!?"

 

[M@v]

There was no recording at the tournament, sad I know. I'm actually hosting a tournament this weekend, and I will be recording the matches. Sadly...I'll kind of be hosting and not participating. The teams matches were very good though (my teammate and I got 2nd). Sheik + Fox is an amazing team actually. The only time we didn't use that was against the team that won (of course there was the Pikachu player on that team, so I went MK, as did my teammate as Sheik + MK doesn't work). A funny thing of note, the last match of the grand finals for teams, we decided to try Sheik + Fox anyway, and did best that way. I guess I shouldn't have been afraid of the Pikachu in teams after all?

Thats what I do, main fox, second MK for the matchups like pika and ZSS.


As for the conversation, you forgot zelda as a pretty bad matchup =). and as for the spot dodge to dsmash, it isnt as good with fox. I mean its OK, but even though its almost as fast, its range sufferes compared to mks and wolfs. And when I play mk, I rarely spot dodge dsmash. I like to save dsmash for killing, and not deteriorate it. I like comboing it out of shuttle loop as well.

 

[Fenrir VII]

As for the conversation, you forgot zelda as a pretty bad matchup =).

No I didn't. it's not that bad.

and as for the spot dodge to dsmash, it isnt as good with fox. I mean its OK, but even though its almost as fast, its range sufferes compared to mks and wolfs. And when I play mk, I rarely spot dodge dsmash. I like to save dsmash for killing, and not deteriorate it. I like comboing it out of shuttle loop as well.

I didn't say spot dodge... and the range is correct. it still works out of shield though. The only thing is that it has a lot more winddown lag that MK and Wolf...so don't be late and hit a shield.. that's why it's not as useful...and I wasn't claiming that it was. it's just another tactic that is quite good out of shield.

 

[soul ark]

your right many people dont want to play as fox or think fox is a threat because we have nothing to show for it. We need to get people to win torneys so we can have some representation. the problem is people have problems playing as fox. so why not start a chat room this way we clear up useless threads and people who have questions can get immediate help.

 

[Zhamy]

Long story short -

You must play smart with Fox. While this should apply to any character, it's especially important for Fox because his game is based on applying the things he has in creative fashions. It's not so much about technique as it is about thinking, which is why matchup analysis can sometimes be a bit screwy - it only measures the theoretical, rather than the player's level. Fox is a character that displays your level of skill rather well - he's only as good as your playing.

If you catch me on AIM, hit me up or whatever.

 

[§witch]

I'm hitting the bi-weekilies here from now on, I'll keep you guys posted. Though I won't be maining fox, or anyone else for that matter. Pick a good character and CP from there, is how I play lol.

 

[chaos_Leader]

I'm working on the tournament placing problem, there's only so many tournaments in the pacific northwest. I'll be attending one this coming weekend.

and I agree with the above conversation and the posters for the most part. though in the last tournament, I was going toe-to-toe with many of the characters on that supposed 'Fox trouble characters' list. I was causing much more trouble for the Lucario and Wario players than they gave me.

Thing is, Fox does not have a 'one size fits all' strategy. I make a new strategy from scratch every time I play a match. I don't play against the character on the screen, I against the player next to me. The characters are just tools to be used in that respect.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This thread is funny.

 

[Zhamy]

This thread is funny.

And got so much funnier when you came in.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I agree completely.

 

[C.O.C.K]

Im got to say this. Mario is a fox counter IMO.
Fox's recovery is as adaptable as you think when he gets hit with a cape or fludd. Fox's approaches can get by fireballs. My bro is a great mario player and he is the reason alone i left fox.(only to go back) I wont go in depth move by move analysis at the moment. But i think its a 40-60 Mario's favor maybe higher.

 

[Emblem Lord]

>____>

Really?

*sigh

This guy is gonna make me back Fox up in a match-up discussion.

 

[Xiivi]

This guy is gonna make me back Fox up in a match-up discussion.

Mario has at least a +3 advantage on Fox. I mean, he can cape Firefox. Unwinnable for Fox.

There, you can now defend Fox in the match-up discussion from someone who doesn't have 4 posts.

 

[Emblem Lord]

It's at least even from what I can tell. Fox is much better on stage while Mario seems to be able to gimp Fox easily.

 

[§witch]

Go to the pit board again, I want a good laugh.

 

[Yaya]

So...does this mean Emblem Lord actually agrees with the conversation in the first post?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Hell no.

That's why the thread is funny.

 

[Xiivi]

Eh it's the same as every other thread in the Fox forums.

Fox mains think they are vastly underrated as per usual and feel the need to explain how great Fox is, followed by rational people disagreeing.

Fox mains should be happy with where they are on the tier list (by Olimar/Toon Link). Instead they're busy insisting they're better than Wolf.

 

[A6M Zero]

Hell no.

That's why the thread is funny.

Apparently you only have to be good to get a purple name, they don't check to see if you're biased or ********.

 

[C.O.C.K]

It's at least even from what I can tell. Fox is much better on stage while Mario seems to be able to gimp Fox easily.

Yeah thats why I didnt give full advantage or a big advantage for mario. Stage pick is everything in the match up.

A stage like Yoshi's Island can help with marios fireball game.
A stage like Defino can help with recovery.
Other stages can provide an obstacle for mario to get around which gives time to recover.
Also I think a few short illusions help, and never FF upwards its an easy fludd to fair.

Dont try to gimp it never works. When he is recovering from underneath it is impossible. When he is even with you, just hang and FF stall. Use your get up attack if you want to edgehog. So if he does hang you can set up something of your own.
-If he upB's above the edge. Usmash @ 90%^. Fsmash or Dsmash @ 50%ish^. Or do a shine if he is lower, to get he off again
-If he does a get up attack then shield, and use and usmash our of shield.
-Or try a shield-grab

I would say keeping him off his feet is the only way. Grab and keep control of him. The match is in mario's favor. I've won a few games against my bro, but he destroys me majority of the time.
NOTE: I consider myself terrible with fox.And consider my bro the best mario or one of the best in the trisate area.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Who said anything about being good?

And If I was ********, I assure you I would be in the care of the State and unable to operate a PC.



I'm somewhat insulted that you think I'm good actually. I'm not one to ride my coattails when it comes to personal skill.

I got into SBR because I pretty much singlehandedly created Marth's metagame in Brawl especially in the early stages and I created one of the most accurate match-up charts when the game came out. And I have been contributing to his metagame from day one to the present.

Who the hell are you BTW?

Anyway, debate me if you like. Keep the insults to yourself.

People like you are the reason why alot of SBR members think 99% of our community are idiots who are not worth talking too or even acknowledging.

And of course I'm biased. I'm human.

Doesn't change the fact that Fox isn't that good. So in this case my biased opinion happens to be correct.

Ok so at this point I'm hammering you pretty badly, so feel free to regroup and come up with a counter argument.

 

[§witch]

Hahahahahahaha, you can't even say a thing after that. EL ***** with words. I'm just going to follow you and your amazing posts around now, lmao.

 

[A6M Zero]

Who said anything about being good?

And If I was ********, I assure you I would be in the care of the State and unable to operate a PC.



I'm somewhat insulted that you think I'm good actually. I'm not one to ride my coattails when it comes to personal skill.

I got into SBR because I pretty much singlehandedly created Marth's metagame in Brawl especially in the early stages and I created one of the most accurate match-up charts when the game came out. And I have been contributing to his metagame from day one to the present.

Who the hell are you BTW?

Anyway, debate me if you like. Keep the insults to yourself.

People like you are the reason why alot of SBR members think 99% of our community are idiots who are not worth talking too or even acknowledging.

And of course I'm biased. I'm human.

Doesn't change the fact that Fox isn't that good. So in this case my biased opinion happens to be correct.

Ok so at this point I'm hammering you pretty badly, so feel free to regroup and come up with a counter argument.

Siiiiiiiigh. People like me are the reason that characters get looked at second times. People like you are the ones that take one look at a character, don't see immediate possibilties, and categorize them as bad.

The reason people think 99% of the smashboards community isn't worth acknowledging is because most of it is too lazy to spell, or put together a sentence, or make an attempt at at all contributing something, NOT because different people have different opinions.

Terrible players don't make metagames or understand character matchups, neither do casual players. When I say good, I mean at a level above casual or intermediate.

If you want to debate, then I'm happy to debate, but I'm more than a little erked when the only thing that's come out of you is "this is funny".

Everyone's biased, but at the very least I should be allowed to expect people to consider other things.


If you want to talk about Fox, then let's talk about Fox. The last thing that this character needs is for every attempt to shine a light on him be snuffed out by some BRoomer that couldn't care less about anything but his own main.

 

[C.O.C.K]

Hahahahahahaha, you can't even say a thing after that. EL ***** with words. I'm just going to follow you and your amazing posts around now, lmao.

Yeah EL is the shizzz. Can i cuss here or what?

 

[Emblem Lord]

See here now. You insulted me for no real reason, so I bit back. Simple as that.

Anyway, I do care about more things in the metagame then my main. Otherwise why would I debate someone about a match-up that doesn't involve my main?

Now what I saw in that first post was basically you guys saying that Fox has all sorts of cool little mindgames that he can whip out.

That's nice.

Fox can do some nice little mindgames, yes. But so can everyone else. You also said that when Fox plays smart he does well. Well, clearly all good players play smart. That's what makes them good, so now I can say that all characters do better when they are played intelligently. So now what are you left with?

Foxes tools of course. And what of his tools?

Well, they are mediocre. Good kill moves although a bit unsafe and mediocre everything else pretty much.

Well, this isn't going to be much of a debate since I only stated facts, but w/e.

 

[A6M Zero]

There's absolutely nothing wrong with what you just said, except that a Ganondorf player playing smart isn't going to accomplish a whole lot more than a Ganondorf player playing textbook standard.

The whole difference is that when Fox plays smart and right and uses those nice little mindgames, his tools can rack up a LOT more damage than the majority of the cast. The same little mindgames set him up for an easy kill. Fox has a FAR higher ceiling than a LOT of characters lethality-wise, and that's what I believe makes him a better character than he's given credit for.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Mindgames are nice. But how much mindgame potential a character has and how effective the mindgames are directly relates to movelist effectiveness and versatility.

And now....

We are back to square one.

*smiles sweetly

 

[A6M Zero]

Not quite my loyal opposition, you just built on the point I'm trying to make

Fox's movelist has everything it needs to capitalize on mistakes he draws out of the opponent. When Fox starts up a low damage combo, he can be garunteed (in almost ALL matchups) atleast 50% of damage. That's more than D3 or Falco's chaingrab, and it's more than any other damage threat in the game I can think of (barring specific infinites). There's only so much that most other characters can do with the moves they have, but Fox is able to do everything he needs to to get an opponent to kill range and finish the stock - and easily.

 

[C.O.C.K]

Playing smart is playing standard.

If anyone plays smart and uses mindgames they can win. Luigi uses mindagames and gets people with the upb. Jp uses rest mindgames. DK punch mindagames. But thats not a metagame. I see fox jumping up on the tiers cause of more players and more winners. But if he doesnt get a real metagame then he will still be here.

IMO the tiers go off of who can afford to make more mistakes in a game and do well. Thats why CF is last and MK is top. If CF misses a knee it will mean alot more that MK missing a shuttle loop. If Falco Misses a spike, its less than Fox missing a shine spike.