A second look at Sheiks meta game.

[<π]

shiek has a really good walk. I only run to dash dance (semi safe way to mind game an opening), grab, and dash attack... and DACUS... Rarely for movement when an opponent is still on stage.

At high percents I always walk and SH to cover distance so I can't trip.

walking is also just a good practice in general, it is the only way you can move with full access to all of your moves.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I'm starting to develop a new approach which baits attacks. Walking is a great tool. Most A attacks require you to be stationary to execute them, which means simply talking two or three steps will keep you safe but within range to punish.

Sheik is very agile. Running up to someone and continually jumping back or faking out needles or sheilding will almost always make your opponent attack. Very few people stand there and do nothing when a ninja runs at them -- either they're noob or Sensei. Anyway, like I said, sheik is agile and can jump back while the attack happens, then change momentum forward and f-air > ftilt or whatever you feel is right at the time.

Walking is not useless by any means, but it's not always the best choice.

 

[chainmaillekid]

I'm starting to develop a new approach which baits attacks. Walking is a great tool. Most A attacks require you to be stationary to execute them, which means simply talking two or three steps will keep you safe but within range to punish.

Sheik is very agile. Running up to someone and continually jumping back or faking out needles or sheilding will almost always make your opponent attack. Very few people stand there and do nothing when a ninja runs at them -- either they're noob or Sensei. Anyway, like I said, sheik is agile and can jump back while the attack happens, then change momentum forward and f-air > ftilt or whatever you feel is right at the time.

Walking is not useless by any means, but it's not always the best choice.

One thing I really hate about running is how long it takes for your sheiled to come up out of the running animation, or anything else really...

A well timed Dash attack can punish psudo-approaches. Even if you see they are initiating an attack, if you are still in the running animation, you are pretty much screwed.

Sometimes Ill approach with a bunch of Sh ariels, and then Ill stop just outside of their range and sheild. Jumping around as I approach just makes them less likely to try and hit me untill I get closer, so Im less likely to need to sheild.

And then one thing that works really well online, Like REALLY well. Just run through them, just go back and forth a few times, Sheik is fast enough that its really hard to time a grab or attack ( unless they are zelda or lucario or something ), and when they miss you can punish it.

 

[Tristan_win]

I thought about making a thread about it but I got lazy.

What do you guys think about the Ftilt lock Vs The Fitilt Into Usmash combo?

You can't really have both.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Depends on the character imo. With fox I say lock, with MK I say Usmash.

Anyway, chain, you're probably not timing the sheild right. It comes up fairly quickly but you have to smash R. Once you let go of the joystick, wait about half a second then hit R, and you should block pretty quickly. Obviously Sheik is no Samus when it comes to this kind of thing, but powersheilding and sheild-dashing (?) are still useful at times.

 

[<π]

you can have both. jab, pumel and aerials quickly reset ftilt if you stop using it. early game tilt lock, late game save for ftilt->usmash.
Also death and transform resets all moves.

 

[SinkingHigher]

GUYS!

So I was playing against someone and as he was recovering I accidently performed a d-air.

Now, besides the occasional happy accident, d-air has been practically useless. But this explains (almost) everything! The good priority (not great, just good), the weird knockback angle, the way you can still recover after her d-air, etc...

I stagespiked. He was jumping up and possibly performing the recovery move and I d-aired on FD. He went behind me into the stage and then went too far away to recover.

I know this is a bit odd and needs some testing, but think about it. How unexpected.

I'm gonna focus on this in my gameplay for a while and see how things turn out. It could be really useful.

Does anyone have priority tests on her d-air?

 

[Zankoku]

It is one of the aerials able to clash with other hitboxes, making it pseudo-disjointed (EG: Marth's aerials) and deals a somewhat decent amount of damage, allowing it to clash most attacks short of Falcon Punch class stuff.

I've had it trade with Meta Knight's Shuttle Loop quite a bit. That said, it's still not an aerial I like.

 

[SinkingHigher]

Hopefully things will change. The only thing I found it to be good for until now is SDing faster.

I feel like this might be it's one hit wonder, so to speak.

 

[Zankoku]

If you're sent way high by something (usmashes, grounded Shuttle Loop, the like) you can double jump dair and it'll keep that uber high falling momentum even after it's done but you can do things like bair on the way down.

 

[SinkingHigher]

That sounds incredibly situational but possibly useful at times. I dunno, b-air is such a good move in terms of spacing I don't think it really needs tricks. I guess when you're up against an MK you need all you can get though.

Okay, time to test.

Laterz.

 

[legion598]

the DACUSs real use is a ranged punisher for ppl coming back to the ground (someine jumps over the needles u didnt throw>DACUS, opponent full hops and tries to land>DACUS etc.) maybe useful as a Fair/Bair follow up but it SHOULD NOT BE USED AS AN APPROACH

 

[<π]

the DACUSs ..
...SHOULD NOT BE USED AS AN APPROACH

true statement.

 

[choknater]

the only reason i DACUS is to make ppl say "oh ****" or "whoa wtf?"

 

[Tristan_win]

Meh, Dacus is fun and does a good job putting fear into people and thus helping you in forcing them to do what you want.

 

[iLight]

lol@ DACUS is safe. try it against a competent opponent plz (being that they aren't wide open)

Also Sheik's put too much emphasis on needles imo. Know that when you run away and needle you're most likely giving up advantageous situations, especially if you already have him cornered. it's an anti-camp tool. sheik isn't a camper... she attacks.

also >_> @ the reverse needle cancel into bair. why not just RAR bair? no point.

sheiks needles are indeed used to just stop camping. Although I have a theory on whether sheik should be a camper or not which i will get to in a moment

@the reverse needle cancel into bair

the point of that technique, or at least what I use it for it basically to out space my opponent. I assume that you know that when you RAR you just continue your momentum forward or just stop moving the middle of the stage, doing your bair animation. <--- This = easily punished by any good player.

So let me give you this scenario. Your fighting a marth and you he's in the middle of the stage waiting for you, or even just slowly approaching you from the other side of the stage. You have 2 options, you can pelt him with needles as he slowly comes towards you, or you can try to catch him off balance by approaching him in return with your approach of choice. The needle cancel bair, allows you to dash towards him, short hop reverse needle cancel, which draws him out either causing him to upB, fair, f-smash, or dancing blade. But since you reverse needle cancelled you are out spacing him, instead of the other way around which is one of the main problems in this match up. And the bair is simply the punish of choice for me. You can also just land and DACUS him instead out of it if he throws out a laggy attack.

In conclusion its simply a spacing technique.

lol when i wrote dacus spamming/camping in my april fools post i was still being serious

its too legit

its just way too hard to execute

seriously, you know how useful it is if you're spacing with snake? it's situational but there are poitns in the match where it is just godly with snake

it's the same with sheik. sort of a mid/long range spacing, if u hit someone's shield they can't punish it (unless they're another sheik, or falco or pit or something and they reverse B a projectile out of shield)

anyway

sheik *****

i can beat any character w/ her

step it up foolz just play the game dont think too much, ur knowledge and good habits will come from just using sheik over and over and trying to win

with sheik, shes fast so u can kinda play like ur playing melee... aka doing stuff so fast ur opponent cant react hence armada getting first

i didnt read this thread btw but my name was the first word in this thread so its TOO GOOD

DACUS spamming, does not work. I play against BadNewsBear all the time, who plays pikachu,metaknight,marth,snake,DDD,wario and some others. He knows that when a sheik is using DACUS all he has to do is throw out almost any attack and he will win, he can jump aerial, he can smash attack you, he can throw out a projectile, he can grab. It doesn't matter. All he has to do is stand there, or jump and throw out an attack. Its that simple. The DACUS is only useful in setups or mindgames and even then can be punished if they think it is coming. It is not a safe thing to do back and forth at any time.

Sethlon mains sheik. it beats light and places better. watch seths

sethlon no longer mains sheik, he has switched to marth, how many times do i have to say this.

also my sheik > sethlons (i love him though, he ***** me in tourney, but only with falco)

the DACUSs real use is a ranged punisher for ppl coming back to the ground (someine jumps over the needles u didnt throw>DACUS, opponent full hops and tries to land>DACUS etc.) maybe useful as a Fair/Bair follow up but it SHOULD NOT BE USED AS AN APPROACH

agreed.

also to anyone saying that sheik's grabs are worthless, I believe your wrong in this whole heartedly. Sheik's grabs to punish are too good and can wrack up a lot of damage, also it isn't too difficult to set up mind game "chain grabs" by simply following beneath the opponent as they come to the ground.



So my thoughts on a potential new metagame for anyone with the mental fortitude to try. I know some people might have a problem with this type of tactic so don't do it if you don't want to, but myself and Dr. Mario Guy, an extremely smart wario main and one of the best players in texas, believe this tactic could work out extremely well.

A little backstory first. So I don't know how well people know this, but not so long ago in the metagame, wario was not considered that good a character, and hold on before everyone assumes that I'm equating sheik to wario. DMG and a couple others thought to themselves for a minute, I can rack up damage pretty well with wario, but I can't seem to finish people off very well, or even approach that well, and by the time I do actually do one of those things, I myself am at kill percent or behind. So he came up with the strategy to just do neither of those things. He would jump around, air dodge, spot dodge, do whatever it took to avoid taking damage and always forcing the other player to approach by making it hard to read where he was going to be. Thus the new wario metagame of floating around and being annoying/running the timer if necessary was born.

Now, what I'm saying is, that why can't sheik do the same thing??

Sheik is a master of low percentage combos, and taking the lead, the only problem is her killing abilities can be hard to perform sometimes, and can get her in a lot of trouble/rack up a lot of damage/deaths on her. So I thought to myself, I bet sheik could be really gay to catch if she wanted to be.

So what if we, as a collective whole/aka. the sheik boards, come up with some strategy of playing keep away and only throwing out punish's when the other person messes up and always making the other person approach.

I believe that one of the main problems sheik mains have is that they go for their punish attacks too quickly, and try to pressure too hard. Say someone is falling down from the air, instead of just flying at them as quickly as possible and trying to catch them by surprise, why not just wait for them, shield whatever attack they throw out, then go for a grab? Also say your fighting a diddy kong or someone that's recovering from off stage, instead of always going out there for some kind of gimp, why not just wait on stage, let them try whatever they want to to get on, then just fair or nair them off again.


These are all just thoughts I've been toying with, but I do believe that if the sheik boards collectively came together and people actually wanted to try, that running away and only punishing mistakes and then backing off again, could be a viable and worthy way to win with sheik, just as it was with wario.

 

[<π]

These are all just thoughts I've been toying with, but I do believe that if the sheik boards collectively came together and people actually wanted to try, that running away and only punishing mistakes and then backing off again, could be a viable and worthy way to win with sheik, just as it was with wario.

I thought we've been doing that to some extent for a while. Maybe not.
Definitely a strong way to live longer. this is why my sheik can hold stocks in teams and still rack crazy damage. singles thpugh I don't have a partner to fish for me and thats still sheiks big problem. Even with wario's lack of solid kill optioms he still out shines sheik, fart and uair are so so good. fsmash is the ultimate anti air.
In tourney lately i've had so much trouble getting actual kill moves in I've been forced to kill with fair!

 

[iLight]

fair is good for gimping offstage so killing with it when you respawn or ledgeguarding with it are both good. In regards as to what to save if you implement the startegy I outlined, it would probably be a nair, vanish, or dsmash.

Also in regards to using f-smash, i've mentioned this before, the best ways i've found to use it. Is to try to time it so that only the second part would hit the other person. Or do it to someone holding shield at the ledge, because the first part would knock them off the stage and then the second one would hit.

I hope you guys found my input useful, how about we have less flaming in what's supposed to be a helpful thread guys

 

[<π]

I mean 200% center of the stage fair kills, lol. most of the high level players in FL won't let me connect with dsmash at higher percents.

I also have trouble with nair. Most people DI it pretty well so It doesn't kill till pretty high anyway. That said, I still have trouble connecting with that as well since again everyones spacing down here is so good. generally if you can't sheild grab you can't nair OOS And yeah verus snake, meta, DDD, kirby etc.
That said though I should put more effort into forcing air dodges with fair, bair, uair maybe? and following up with nair.

Fresh bair gets me a bunch of kills but I have to die before it does that since I use it so much. It becomes crazy hard to lower the decay for bair at higher percents since ftilt no longer combos but I still have to use it to keep up defense.

I'm afraid to use zelda at high percents

 

[Zankoku]

Do SH nair lol. Like, shorthop, and instead of doing a fair, do a late nair and rail them.

Or ftilt and try to trap them into airdodging (dsmash), jumping (uair), or doing an aerial (shieldgrab uthrow).

 

[<π]

fair has more range than nair... right? I didn't even think they were comparable.

 

[sniperworm]

I'm afraid to use zelda at high percents

Just get close to them and start moving that yellow stick on your controller, lol.

 

[Tristan_win]

Speaking of Zelda what's your guy’s ideas about using her with sheik?

Personally I think she should only be used as a last resort after messing up the ftilt into usmash decay combo and sheik nair isn't fresh at all or maybe only against de3 if you mess up the decay. Other then that switching to her for very bad match ups like Ice climbers and.... ice climbers. Sheik can kill pretty well on her own and can do it safely while Zelda on the other hand cannot. Although when I say that I'm thinking pretty much about gimping, decay ftilt into usmash, and OoS strong nair around 130%

 

[iLight]

i used to try to switch to zelda, then realized that where as sheik can get punished for trying to approach, its unthinkable with zelda, and not only that zelda just gets punished so hard about 90% of the time

 

[choknater]

i think Light is very knowledgeable of sheik

but not cocky/confident/unrealistic enough like me

(listen to him, its very good advice)

 

[<π]

I hear zelda is horrible

 

[Crossjeremiah]

i think we should focus on sheiks dtilt hitbox. its about 1 frame less. and we can use it as an alternative to dsmash, forward only though i dont think its as big as the dsmash. but this way we can keep the dsmash unstale and not have to AAA combo to reset decay.

 

[rathy Aro]

edit:

i think we should focus on sheiks dtilt hitbox. its about 1 frame less. and we can use it as an alternative to dsmash, forward only though i dont think its as big as the dsmash. but this way we can keep the dsmash unstale and not have to AAA combo to reset decay.

Why focus on dtilt to avoid decay when we are actually trying to decay ftilt, which is generally a better move (at least in speed, range, and follow ups)?

i used to try to switch to zelda, then realized that where as sheik can get punished for trying to approach, its unthinkable with zelda, and not only that zelda just gets punished so hard about 90% of the time

Really depends on the matchup. And even in a bad matchup it could still be better to kill with zelda at ~110 rather than something crazy like 180.

Your idea about sheik sounds interesting and I have no problem with gay tactics (mains DDD), but when ever I try to keep away I just get punished eventually. Then again I tend to do this against, ppl like MK, Wario, and Marth. I definitely agree though about not going for punishment to early...

I like the idea we should start talking about it. We all have an idea of how to maneuver with sheik so lets start off with what are the best stages for this kind of keep away tactic? Also which specific matchups would it help the most? And of course, more detail about how sheik can camp most effectively (I doubt she would do it exactly as wario does).

 

[iLight]

Well as far as match ups go, i've been putting some thought into this the ones it would help with most and probably in this order is

(List may be slightly skewed as i excluded characters i felt that sheik's current metagame would already deal with other than that these are the ones it would work on I believe)

DDD
Luigi
Bowser
DK

ROB(omg if you take his top he's so screwed, can't do **** to you anymore)
if you get his top, all sheik has to do at this point even against a good rob, is just stand there until he starts approaching because all you have to do is p-shield his lasers. Once he approaches, either throw the top up to go and grab or simply charge needles then throw it at him and catch it again. ROB cannot camp you without it. Period

Yoshi
Lucario
Kirby
Diddy Kong(If you take one his bananas and then camp, his game becomes a lot more limited as well)
Toon Link
Link
G&W
ZSS
Peach
Ness
Lucas

I think it could work vs Wario as well, it would just be really ****ing hard

As far as the best stages for this big stages with platforms are your friends, or just lots of platforms so:

Battlefield/Smashville/PS1 if its a neutral, or FD if its appropriate aka fighting against something like ZSS, Toon Link, Ness/Lucas, Link, ROB its way easier to powershield projectiles along the flat surface letting you make sure to never have to move

Other than that appropriate stages can also include:
Luigi's Mansion if its legal
Norfair ^^ ^^
Pictochat
Jungle Japes
Brinstar is not bad either in my opinion

*sheds a single tear* *sigh* i miss corneria, sheik was so good at camping that stage sometimes

Ways to camp effectively:
Well in most of the match up's sheik just straight up runs a significant amount faster than the other character to start

Needles win when thrown at angles from high places

Sheik can dash powershield better than almost any other character because she can travel so far as she does it
I've actually started doing this fun trick of dashing towards someone, power shielding their attack, then pivot grabbing them from behind, its fun

I believe that sheiks jump animations/dashes give her enough control to maneuver around most walls as far as characters go, of course it always matters how good your opponent is and how good you both are at reading each other.

I don't think that spot dodging is really appropriate in this scenario unless they manage to get really close on you because it ties you down to one spot, which takes away sheiks speed advantage and can get you punished.

aerial timing,spacing are key
also grabs will be vital as punishes

In a lot of these scenarios the characters have really good punishes from getting either jabbed or f-tilted and that = damage on sheik, which is not good



I think that in the end the best strategy will be to do a combo of the above tactics until you can knock someone off stage then just ledge guard them by waiting on stage and running away if they actually make it back. Then just trying again, like i said i still need some ideas on the variations on jumping/dashing (its really ****ing hard to get around DDD) I think that a lot of the tactics may be character specific, I'm not sure though, we may still be able to come up with a general good/mostly unpunishable pattern for sheik

 

[Tristan_win]

edit:

Why focus on dtilt to avoid decay when we are actually trying to decay ftilt, which is generally a better move (at least in speed, range, and follow ups)?



Really depends on the matchup. And even in a bad matchup it could still be better to kill with zelda at ~110 rather than something crazy like 180.
.

Well because the dtilt can combo if decayed a bit and a fresh sheik dsmash is really ****ing good for setting someone up for a gimp because of it's knock back. The dsmash is also **** easy to hit someone with even in the higher % since they can't side step really.

Something to note about the dtilt is that you can do it if you tilt the directional stick down and C stick down as well so it's roughly as easy to do as well.

 

[<π]

I got to play a bunch of awesome people at the virgfest after this months gigs in singles.

Polmex (awesome luigi main, the best in FL)
G-Money (Wario)
GDX (Played his D3 If memory serves)

And I pretty much went even with all of them. All of our matches went down to last stock.
Luigi is not hard to beat you just need to pay attention and limit his upB opertunities. every time he jumps punish with needles.
Wario is a ***** but similarly you can punish a lot of his aerial junk with needles. Bair ***** for this match and of course grabs aren't crazy difficult to get since his ground game is so slow.
D3 isn't bad again needles if he is in the air you can get fast hits in from in front of him, avoid below and behind. Needles again for when he wasn't to get aerial and come at you with bairs. Grabs are easy to get with your speed and his laggy ground based spacing game and those set up for a comfortable air game for you.

when you don't have the advantage DON'T FIGHT! not that hard to understand, lol.

 

[choknater]

with DDD i like to ftilt the waddles dees to stale them, and refresh my other attacks

and then needle below the waddle dee

TOO GOOD!!