A second look at Sheiks meta game.

[<π]

My problem with DACUS is how people view it. it isn't a new attack, it's an up smash that moves further. it still has the same lag and start up it is very easy to punish and not hard to read or react to if you've seen it before.
It's awesome when set up and when closing distance and racking damage for "combo" finishers. but doing it won't magically net you kills anymore than squirtle's shell shifting shenanigans.

 

[Steel]

Why? It's an attack that actually can't be punished.

Because running away to needle someone is ineffective.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I think that DACUS and vanish tactics is just flash stuff that's not needed.

Well, you said it yourself. You don't know Sheik.

DACUS, as I'm sure Tristan will tell you, is an EXTREMELY useful move. Simply because a tech is difficult doesn't mean it's useless, otherwise the wavedashing hype would never have happened.

As for Vanish, most Sheiks are VERY predictable with it and it gets them punished. It's a bad recovery move but it's an excellent kill move. It comes with some strings attached however. Running up to someone will not get you kills. You need to learn how to bait attacks. It is not by any means your best choice though.

Once again, it's all about fundamentals. Timing, spacing, baiting, punishing, powersheilding, grabbing, approaching, predicting.

Most people have patterns. You find your enemy's pattern, you find their weakness. The people that don't have patterns, or at least veryyy few of them are the ones that win tournaments.

There are very few techs you need to know with Sheik.

DACUS
Chainlock
f-tilt lock (if it's considered tech).

That's it. Nothing else. Nothing.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Well, you said it yourself. You don't know Sheik.

DACUS, as I'm sure Tristan will tell you, is an EXTREMELY useful move. Simply because a tech is difficult doesn't mean it's useless, otherwise the wavedashing hype would never have happened.

As for Vanish, most Sheiks are VERY predictable with it and it gets them punished. It's a bad recovery move but it's an excellent kill move. It comes with some strings attached however. Running up to someone will not get you kills. You need to learn how to bait attacks. It is not by any means your best choice though.

Once again, it's all about fundamentals. Timing, spacing, baiting, punishing, powersheilding, grabbing, approaching, predicting.

Most people have patterns. You find your enemy's pattern, you find their weakness. The people that don't have patterns, or at least veryyy few of them are the ones that win tournaments.

There are very few techs you need to know with Sheik.

DACUS
Chainlock
f-tilt lock (if it's considered tech).

That's it. Nothing else. Nothing.

Ah I see I'm just reading guides and watching vids and trying to learn sheiks stuff.

 

[Tristan_win]

Decay ftilt into Usmash > Chain skills> Ftilt lock > DACUS skills > jab canceling > needle skills > vanish skills.

~Gimping is not on my list because I gimp purely on instinct and that it's so 2nd nature to me now that putting it up with such things like decay ftilt into usmash would be like listing a "tilt skills" category to me. The same can be said for spacing but obviously spacing is still highly important.
~"Chain skills" include knowing range of the chain, chain lock, reverse chain lock, and extend experiences with jump into chain.
~"DACUS skills" includes constancy of performance, timing, punishment, and so on.
~" Needle skills" includes knowing range of needles, knowing range they go if reflected, knowing speed so you can hit people when they land they will be within the cluster of the storm, and so on.
~"Vanish skills" includes knowing the range of vanish, knowing how get in peoples way with vanish when your opponents recovering, knowing the safe places you can reappear that has a lower chance of being punished, and so on.

"and so on" generally means knowing the basics.

That's a complete list of everything that's sheik players should develop in order of importance that will not become 2nd nature.

Basics, Spacing, and of course Mind Games will always be more important.

edit:

I would like to note before anyone bring it up that "vanish skills" are not needed or don't require much unless you are counting recovery as well.

I would also like to note that other techs can be useful for sheik but as of yet haven't been shown to at least me being useful, don't limit yourself to what I listed.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Decay ftilt into Usmash > Chain skills> Ftilt lock > DACUS skills > jab canceling > needle skills > vanish skills.

~Gimping is not on my list because I gimp purely on instinct and that it's so 2nd nature to me now that putting it up with such things like decay ftilt into usmash would be like listing a "tilt skills" category to me. The same can be said for spacing but obviously spacing is still highly important.
~"Chain skills" include knowing range of the chain, chain lock, reverse chain lock, and extend experiences with jump into chain.
~"DACUS skills" includes constancy of performance, timing, punishment, and so on.
~" Needle skills" includes knowing range of needles, knowing range they go if reflected, knowing speed so you can hit people when they land they will be within the cluster of the storm, and so on.
~"Vanish skills" includes knowing the range of vanish, knowing how get in peoples way with vanish when your opponents recovering, knowing the safe places you can reappear that has a lower chance of being punished, and so on.

"and so on" generally means knowing the basics.

That's a complete list of everything that's sheik players should develop in order of importance that will not become 2nd nature.

Basics, Spacing, and of course Mind Games will always be more important.

Can you explain decay ftilt to usmash to me? I think I know what it is but I'm not too sure that's when you rack up damage with 2 filts then do something and continue using ftilts again right?

 

[Tristan_win]

Can you explain decay ftilt to usmash to me? I think I know what it is but I'm not too sure that's when you rack up damage with 2 filts then do something and continue using ftilts again right?

Decay ftilt into usmash is most likely one of the most complex things ever in smash history. Because of the decay system in brawl whenever you hit someone with an attack the knock back of that attack is weaken, the hit stun although doesn't go down at the same rate also get shorter

Sheik is one of the few characters that can truly abuse this system.

At at set % and hit with a correct decayed ftilt sheik ftilt will combo directly into tipper usmash on every character in the game and kill them, guaranteed.

So instead of waiting to like 120% before sheik strong nair will kill kirby MAYBE you could just hit kirby with a fresh or slightly used ftilt and then immediately follow it up into a killing tipper usmash at 80%.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Decay ftilt into usmash is most likely one of the most complex things ever in smash history. Because of the decay system in brawl whenever you hit someone with an attack the knock back of that attack is weaken, the hit stun although doesn't go down at the same rate also get shorter

Sheik is one of the few characters that can truly abuse this system.

At at set % and hit with a correct decayed ftilt sheik ftilt will combo directly into tipper usmash on every character in the game and kill them, guaranteed.

So instead of waiting to like 120% before sheik strong nair will kill kirby MAYBE you could just hit kirby with a fresh or slightly used ftilt and then immediately follow it up into a killing tipper usmash at 80%.

So basically if I do ftilt to usmash.

 

[Tristan_win]

So basically if I do ftilt to usmash.

Correct.

10sheiksforhightier.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Correct.

10sheiksforhightier.

It doesn't seem as complex as you made it out to be....

 

[Zankoku]

Great! That means you'll have no problem doing it right, then.

 

[Tristan_win]

It doesn't seem as complex as you made it out to be....

^-^ Good to hear, you should master it then as should all serious sheiks users.

 

[gm jack]

I would just ***** it when you get close the the killing percentages for the tipper Usmash. If they get hit too high as it wasn't decayed enough, they should be outside of punishing range unless you really missed the tipper my a minuscule amount. If they are not sent high enough, you have still landed an Usmash which will do decent damage. Soon, the Usmash will have recovered enough to allow you to use it as a KO move again.

 

[choknater]

lol when i wrote dacus spamming/camping in my april fools post i was still being serious

its too legit

its just way too hard to execute

seriously, you know how useful it is if you're spacing with snake? it's situational but there are poitns in the match where it is just godly with snake

it's the same with sheik. sort of a mid/long range spacing, if u hit someone's shield they can't punish it (unless they're another sheik, or falco or pit or something and they reverse B a projectile out of shield)

anyway

sheik *****

i can beat any character w/ her

step it up foolz just play the game dont think too much, ur knowledge and good habits will come from just using sheik over and over and trying to win

with sheik, shes fast so u can kinda play like ur playing melee... aka doing stuff so fast ur opponent cant react hence armada getting first

i didnt read this thread btw but my name was the first word in this thread so its TOO GOOD

 

[Blistering Speed]

Chok's posts bring light to my life and make me feel all fuzzy inside.

 

[SinkingHigher]

It doesn't seem as complex as you made it out to be....

(Disclaimer: I am still learning about decay, but to the best of my knowlege...)

It's obviously not that simple.

Kirby is used as an example of a floaty balloon type character. All characters are individual, even the clones, and as a result (though sometimes the methods may be similar by sheer coincidence) each individual matchup will display different reactions to the f-tilt. This means you will need to get f-tilt to medium decay for certain characters, high decay for others, and light decay for the rest (i.e., kirby).

Logically, this is my interpretation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

P.s., AL... Instead of flaming and shunning the newcomer...

Watching vids and reading about techniques will never get you to where you (presumably) want to be. Sheik's techs, and from my experience most of the cast's techs, are for show. They're glitches and by-products of brawl's obscure physics that cause pretty things to happen. Nothing more. Occasionally, however, a useful (sometimes essential) tech comes along that will serious benefit you. Sheik, though, has no such essential techs. Helpful, yes, required, NOOO.

Playing experienced players is the only way to get seriously better. The ONLY way. Watching videos and reading guides will give you the knowledge, but it's up to you to get the application right. All Sheiks are different. You need to find your own style and tweak it -- this is done by crits of your matches and first hand advice from experienced players. Eventually you'll come to develop a style, or rather, an understanding of Sheik and Brawl fundamentals. Then you'll be an good player.

I can offer you online matches and give you what I have to offer, but I not by any means "experienced" to the extent of the players I was referring to.

Not to be hypocritical and contradictive, but I would advise you to watch videos of TristanWin, Gimpyfish, Ankoku, and RyokoYaksa. (I can think of others but I don't know their Sheiks all too well, and I am sure the ones I named will not be happy about this anyway.) Even though they are videos, there are things to be learned.

Gimpyfish can show you the fundamentals. Chaining b-air and tether gimps.
TristanWin can show you how NOT to be predictable. Brawl is about living in the moment, so to speak.
Ankoku and Ryoko and show you how to win a match. Spacing and f-tilt (granted I have not seen much of their work recently.)

Obviously, playing someone in person will teach you far more than any video, but most Sheiks tend to dislike WiFi and most Sheiks tend to dislike newcomers (often with good reason).

Go to tournaments if they're available to you. You don't need dittos to teach you how to play Sheik. And so ends my almighty lecture/pep-talk.

Once again, I am not an experienced Sheik, but from what I've learned I like to think I have some idea of what I'm talking about.

 

[Tristan_win]

lol when i wrote dacus spamming/camping in my april fools post i was still being serious

its too legit

its just way too hard to execute

seriously, you know how useful it is if you're spacing with snake? it's situational but there are poitns in the match where it is just godly with snake

it's the same with sheik. sort of a mid/long range spacing, if u hit someone's shield they can't punish it (unless they're another sheik, or falco or pit or something and they reverse B a projectile out of shield)

anyway

sheik *****

i can beat any character w/ her

step it up foolz just play the game dont think too much, ur knowledge and good habits will come from just using sheik over and over and trying to win

with sheik, shes fast so u can kinda play like ur playing melee... aka doing stuff so fast ur opponent cant react hence armada getting first

i didnt read this thread btw but my name was the first word in this thread so its TOO GOOD

Chok you seriously need to watch some of Neo videos then his sheik IS melee. I've only seen it online (the lag was nil though) and he was doing speed mind games on me all game long and he's only getting better.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Great! That means you'll have no problem doing it right, then.

IDK the theory behind it doesn't seem to difficult actually putting it into practice is something totally different.

^-^ Good to hear, you should master it then as should all serious sheiks users.

I played on mastering that stuff since I don't like picking up characters and being half ***** with them.

(Disclaimer: I am still learning about decay, but to the best of my knowlege...)

It's obviously not that simple.

Kirby is used as an example of a floaty balloon type character. All characters are individual, even the clones, and as a result (though sometimes the methods may be similar by sheer coincidence) each individual matchup will display different reactions to the f-tilt. This means you will need to get f-tilt to medium decay for certain characters, high decay for others, and light decay for the rest (i.e., kirby).

Logically, this is my interpretation. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

P.s., AL... Instead of flaming and shunning the newcomer...

Watching vids and reading about techniques will never get you to where you (presumably) want to be. Sheik's techs, and from my experience most of the cast's techs, are for show. They're glitches and by-products of brawl's obscure physics that cause pretty things to happen. Nothing more. Occasionally, however, a useful (sometimes essential) tech comes along that will serious benefit you. Sheik, though, has no such essential techs. Helpful, yes, required, NOOO.

Playing experienced players is the only way to get seriously better. The ONLY way. Watching videos and reading guides will give you the knowledge, but it's up to you to get the application right. All Sheiks are different. You need to find your own style and tweak it -- this is done by crits of your matches and first hand advice from experienced players. Eventually you'll come to develop a style, or rather, an understanding of Sheik and Brawl fundamentals. Then you'll be an good player.

I can offer you online matches and give you what I have to offer, but I not by any means "experienced" to the extent of the players I was referring to.

Not to be hypocritical and contradictive, but I would advise you to watch videos of TristanWin, Gimpyfish, Ankoku, and RyokoYaksa. (I can think of others but I don't know their Sheiks all too well, and I am sure the ones I named will not be happy about this anyway.) Even though they are videos, there are things to be learned.

Gimpyfish can show you the fundamentals. Chaining b-air and tether gimps.
TristanWin can show you how NOT to be predictable. Brawl is about living in the moment, so to speak.
Ankoku and Ryoko and show you how to win a match. Spacing and f-tilt (granted I have not seen much of their work recently.)

Obviously, playing someone in person will teach you far more than any video, but most Sheiks tend to dislike WiFi and most Sheiks tend to dislike newcomers (often with good reason).

Go to tournaments if they're available to you. You don't need dittos to teach you how to play Sheik. And so ends my almighty lecture/pep-talk.

Once again, I am not an experienced Sheik, but from what I've learned I like to think I have some idea of what I'm talking about

I've been watching those videos and I don't mind playing you I'm normally home at nights considering i'm at school most days of the weeks i'll be home around 8 tonight EST. I've watched a couple of those vids I also watched armada and light sheik.

 

[Xyro77]

Sethlon mains sheik. it beats light and places better. watch seths

 

[saviorslegacy]

Sethlon mains sheik. it beats light and places better. watch seths

Light is still awsome!

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Sethlon mains sheik. it beats light and places better. watch seths

any links to his vids?

 

[Lythium]

any links to his vids?

Here are some finals matches. Apparently, they forgot to record the third match in a series of four.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kh6Zz_ZhA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgYjA2cu_JM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51sgi2TwITY

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Here are some finals matches. Apparently, they forgot to record the third match in a series of four.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kh6Zz_ZhA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgYjA2cu_JM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51sgi2TwITY

AH I see thanks.

 

[<π]

I'm a espy fan now. Easily the best sonic I've seen.

 

[Lythium]

I'm a espy fan now. Easily the best sonic I've seen.

I heartily concur. SO GOOD.

 

[SinkingHigher]

...

I wouldn't really go by Sethlon. Judging by these videos.

He gets gimped pretty much EVERY time.
His spacing is a bit rough.
No needles.
No grabbing.
No nair.
Little f-tilt lock.

He thinks of a move and then tries to execute it over and over. Coincidentally, and I suppose unfortunately, the Sonic does not do that. That sonic sees an opening, knows his moveset pretty well, and goes in for an attack. Sethlon gets a LOT of punishment and clearly doesn't know how to use Nair. His recoveries... Oh my. Almost EVERY time he tries to recover, he dies. This does not happen with Sheik. Finally, he keeps jumping right into ALL of Sonics attacks. Whenever sonic is not within reach, he either jumps at him or dash attacks.

He did good with b-air, I'll give him that. The chains in the second stock of the last video was impressive, though I don't know what was wrong with the Sonic at that point. His Usmashes are for the most part semi-surprise attacks that got him a kill or two.

Still, this is not a player that doesn't have patterns. If you have patterns, you're predictable. If you're predictable you get punished. If you're punished, you lose. Case in point: Sethlon.

 

[DMG]

Everyone has patterns lol. :/

Also, his Shiek is like less than 2 months old. So while it may not look like a pro *** Shiek, it's pretty impressive he got to that level with her so fast.

Also Also, if you want Shiek to be a good character, run with her more. Seriously guys, tilt lock someone or get a 40% lead and don't even bother trying to attack the opponent unless they are easily open. Turn Shiek into a ground Wario lol.

 

[Tristan_win]

Here are some finals matches. Apparently, they forgot to record the third match in a series of four.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5kh6Zz_ZhA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgYjA2cu_JM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=51sgi2TwITY

DAT AIN'T SHADOFIEND

No but really those were so good matches, fun to watch. The sheik made a few bad judgment calls though and the sonic did a excellent job punishing them

Everyone has patterns lol. :/

Also, his Shiek is like less than 2 months old. So while it may not look like a pro *** Shiek, it's pretty impressive he got to that level with her so fast.

Also Also, if you want Shiek to be a good character, run with her more. Seriously guys, tilt lock someone or get a 40% lead and don't even bother trying to attack the opponent unless they are easily open. Turn Shiek into a ground Wario lol.

I don't sheik has enough priority to do that but I have to admit I've never tried to stall after getting a extend lead like that. I'll give it a throw sometime it might work very well with the decay ftilt into usmash style I'm forcefully warping my sheik to.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

...

I wouldn't really go by Sethlon. Judging by these videos.

He gets gimped pretty much EVERY time.
His spacing is a bit rough.
No needles.
No grabbing.
No nair.
Little f-tilt lock.

He thinks of a move and then tries to execute it over and over. Coincidentally, and I suppose unfortunately, the Sonic does not do that. That sonic sees an opening, knows his moveset pretty well, and goes in for an attack. Sethlon gets a LOT of punishment and clearly doesn't know how to use Nair. His recoveries... Oh my. Almost EVERY time he tries to recover, he dies. This does not happen with Sheik. Finally, he keeps jumping right into ALL of Sonics attacks. Whenever sonic is not within reach, he either jumps at him or dash attacks.

He did good with b-air, I'll give him that. The chains in the second stock of the last video was impressive, though I don't know what was wrong with the Sonic at that point. His Usmashes are for the most part semi-surprise attacks that got him a kill or two.

Still, this is not a player that doesn't have patterns. If you have patterns, you're predictable. If you're predictable you get punished. If you're punished, you lose. Case in point: Sethlon.

I picked up on the recovery thing also and the needles. Sonic approaches from the ground alot so needs would have been a good and I think they stop his spins but I'm not too sure.

Everyone has patterns lol. :/

Also, his Shiek is like less than 2 months old. So while it may not look like a pro *** Shiek, it's pretty impressive he got to that level with her so fast.

Also Also, if you want Shiek to be a good character, run with her more. Seriously guys, tilt lock someone or get a 40% lead and don't even bother trying to attack the opponent unless they are easily open. Turn Shiek into a ground Wario lol.

LoL that's some sound advise. You forget to tell us to pack someones lunch.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Meh, Sethlon's Sheik is like a month old. We know from experience he's a smart player, I'm sure he'll go far.

Also IMO Espy is the best Sonic in the USA right now, on a par with _X_ and Malcolm.

What is it with Melee Roy players and Brawl Sheik anyway? Neo and now Sethlon.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I see. For a month old he is indeed pretty good. He knows which moves aren't worth the time, which is good, but he needs to learn how to use the moves that are good. I guess this will be fixed with time and practice. I'll look up videos of his mains, but I'm seeing a distinct lack of fundamental work (approach, defense, spacing, punishing.)

I guess there's no point trying to critique a work in progress.

 

[saviorslegacy]

I guess there's no point trying to critique a work in progress.

You just deffeated the purpose. -.- Critiquinf is supposed to be there to help those who aren't pro's. ie People with a work in progress.

 

[SinkingHigher]

I'm starting to understand what Tristan is saying.

 

[Blistering Speed]

In what respect? Sinking, you and me are officialy the insomniac Sheiks.

 

[Tristan_win]

I say a lot SinkingHigher but whatever you are understand that's good ^-^

 

[East]

Anybody know where this tournament was held?

 

[SinkingHigher]

~sighs~

It's sucks that I don't want to share anything truly noteworthy anymore with the community so I can be the best sheik one day if not player then I see people completely ignore things that I value greatly and want to tell them....

That's what I was referring to.

Anyway, East I'm not sure which tournament you're talking about. The all sheik tournament?

 

[<π]

Because running away to needle someone is ineffective.

you don;t have to run to use needles, fully charge needles are very difficult to punish even at close ranges unless you some how completely whiff.

The needle throw animation doesn't change bassed on how many needles you have.So throwing one needle takes the same time as throwing 6. The animation ends very close to the time it takes to throw the 6th needle and thanks to shield stun even on block you won't6 be punish except by shiled grabs and very fast OOS stuff (marth, samus, zelda) but you have to be pretty darn close for those things to happen obviously.

That said even from a distance needles are rarely a bad option is does a nuber on shileds since you can't Pshiled two needles your always bound to gain ground in the battle for shileds.
Needles at a distance can quickly shut down ground bassed approaches and set things back to nuetral or force opponents into unplanned aerial approach which can be easy to punish with a dash attack tilt or shield grab.

saying shieks needles aren't effective at a distance is like saying falco's lazer is ineffective. If your opponent has to react to them they have a purpose.

-Needles <3

 

[Crossjeremiah]

no one walks anymore...

 

[Blistering Speed]

Think before you post something "what will this accomplish" instead of "I'm goen type in that ther box".

Everyone walks, Sheik especially so she can instantly do a F Tilt at the cost of a minor cut in movement speed.