A Proposal Regarding Marth's Honor--The Ness/Lucas 'Chaingrab'

[Dark Sonic]

This is ridiculous.

You know what I consider honorable?

When somone comes at me with everything they have and give it their all in an attempt to utterly crush me.

Holding back and not using the full extent of thier characters abilities, is dishonorable in my eyes and I consider it insulting.

If ever face a Ness or Lucas in tourney I will obliterate them with htis infinite, because that is the honorable thing to do.

We are warriors on the battlefield, and we come to test our mettle against one another. Holding back spits on the values that competition is founded on.

Case in point, when I played BUM online, yes BUM the DK player, he would constantly kill himself when ever he took off a stock from me.

Now later on when I asked him why does he do that, and he said he just did it to see if I would get angry. I wasn't angry at all. But if that had been a tournament match I would have been furious. Doing something like that is just a slap in the face. It means that you don't take your opponent seriously at all and you see them as no threat.

Well not using the re-grab infinite is the same thing IMO.

IMO I think holding back or not abusing tactics is scrubby and disrespectful. I want no part of it.

I would NEVER expect an IC player to not do the f-throw/b-throw infinite on Marth. It's pretty easy to do on him and it's effective as well. They SHOULD use it, since it helps them out in the match-up and I expect them to use it.

Same concept here.

You say that you are appealing to my "code of honor," but that very code of honor states that I will not dishonor my opponents by holding anything back. I will make sure that I do not have the ability to go back and say "well, I could've easily won if I had done..." That is the way of the warrior good sir. To give it his all in every matchup. Do you know what we call it when you don't give it your all?

Sandbagging, the uttermost disrespect to any tournament player. If you lose you just lost to someone who wasn't even trying. If you win, you still didn't beat him at his best. That is something that I will never do in a tournament match, and if I'm looked down upon for that than so be it. Until it is banned I will use it, so that I have no excuses for losing. In fact, I'm sure that if we all used it then it would be quickly banned from tournaments, or the Earthbounders would just become unplayable in tournaments. If there is no official ban, they will never win a tournament as no serious player would ever throw away an opportunity to win the final match. If anyone still wants to main Ness and Lucas, they better be pretty **** good.

BTW, rediculous chaingrabs did not stop Fox and Falco from being to tier, and most of the cast could do that. Just thought I'd throw that out there.

Beat you to it. lol.

 

[Gerbil]

@FM - I got a buddy in Columbus that plays Marth. He likes to show off garbage threads like this one XD.

 

[Proverbs]

Although NessBounder did have a point in what he said, I realize that some of my assertions were a bit over the top and want to apologize.

What I was addressing was the fact that two very good mains would be ruined over a programming flaw and I was sick of hearing people saying "I don't care." However, I can still respect your point of view, and I mean that. I'm sorry for taking this issue a bit too far.

However, I would like you to understand why I said what I said by seeing it from the point of view of the Ness players as I tried to do (and became easier for me when I decided Ness would be my second main--after I found out about this, by the way). So, I'm sorry for taking this issue too far, but I felt that the Ness players needed someone to argue in their defense.

Also, now there has been new information provided on this topic:
http://smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=4426969#post4426969

If this information is true, then both Lucas' and Ness' situations are far less desparate than we thought. If that is so and the Earthbounders are not facing extermination as characters, I have no problem using the technique myself, as it doesn't put them in the situation of being completely overruled in competition. And, like you said, is something that should be taken advantage of.

My problem wasn't the technique. When I first learned of it and thought only Marth could do it, I even used it on my friend during a friendly for a little, but he soon escaped. After that I didn't care much for it. My problem was that loads of people would lose their mains because of a programming flaw and no one cared. My sympathy was aroused and that provoked this thread.

So, in essence: I'm sorry I went overboard but I was trying to support people who were in an extremely desperate situation with their mains. Now that the threat has been mostly alleviated, I have no real problem with this technique.

Once again, I apologize deeply and from the heart if I had offended anyone.

I'm no longer petitioning against using this technique as Ness and Lucas aren't ruined. That was the only thing I was trying to prevent. Now it's equal to the other infinite chaingrabs and until all infinite chaingrabs are banned (you can't ban just this one now that it's in equal magnitude to the others that are character specific), I'll be using it too if I get the chance for a free 20% or an f-smash that leads to a KO.

Because I started this because I believed the Ness and Lucas mainers needed someone in their defense being that their mains were about to be ruined for all eternity. Now that there are only two characters (Marth and PT) that can grab Ness infinitely and only Marth for Lucas, these guys can still fare absolutely well in tournaments while being a little wary of Marths and PTs. So: Because it's not hurting them and they now can survive, they don't need anyone to protect them.

Essentially, because this isn't destroying people's mains, hopes, and dreams--I have a lot less qualms about the issue. And being that even Ness can escape from even Marth, this technique can be used and isn't ridiculously cheap. It's no longer a ridiculous threat that knocks them into their own tier.

That's why. Do you need more clarification? I think I was clear but I'm sort of rushing. Ness is my secondary, by the way (as I'm sure you know).

I've seen posts people have been making like "I play to win and there is no honor" or "Proverbs, a bit of advice..." Take some time to read what's already been said. I went into this not bashing the technique as a whole, but if you take a look at my original posts, most of what I said was supported by my strong belief that throwing out two very viable mains because "you don't care" was ridiculous and stupid.

Now that Lucas and Ness are fine and can stand on their own and should be able to hold their own in tournaments, I'm no longer asking people not to use this technique. It's one of the few bonuses that Marth gets against the Earthbounders. Gasp, one person can grab both Earthbounders and two can grab Ness. Ohmanz. Before people freaked out because they thought it was nearly the whole of the roster.

That was when I figured that the Ness and Lucas mainers needed a hand. Now that this no longer is a threat to them, play to win is the general strategy and I don't mind using the technique at all, although I've seen firsthand human and CPU Nesses escaping Marth's infinite (actually it was a very inexperienced friend of mine who escaped it). So, the Ness and Lucas mainers just have to get used to having a good reaction time with the release grab as far as dodging smashes and need to learn to escape Marth's as it seems very possible but unproven (once again, I've seen it escaped, so it must be possible in some way).

So, if there's anyone else who wants to fight against this technique, you may use this thread to do so.

However, I have completely ceased my fight against using this technique. The only time I would even support this being banned is when all of the other infinites are as well.

Thank you. I'll update my first post so people can see this.

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^You have to dash grab on Lucas, so that's probably why you've been missing that one.
On Ness you can grab in place, but you've probably messed up the timing if the CPU is escaping (hasn't happened to anyone that just mashes A while holding shield). Also, d-smash is faster than grab, so that one's unescapable. And you can prevent them from jumping out of the grab by grab attacking them at the maximum speed (as they'll never leave hitstun and thus won't be able to input the jump release).

 

[Proverbs]

I use shield+A and have had it escaped by Ness.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Now when you say escaped, do you mean directly out of the grab (like jump releasing out of the grab, because that's preventable), or do you mean that they moved away after the grab release and got away. If so I'd find that very strange. Try doing it on one fourth's speed with the Ness set to "control" and have the Ness hold shield. Look very carefully to see if a shield is able to pop up. If so then escaping the grab might be possible, but if not then there is just not enough time for Ness to escape (unless rolls come out faster than putting up a shield) as even a jab takes longer than bringing up a shield.

 

[BacklashMarth]

That shirlin stuff was pretty deep. In actuallity, whenever my brothers say i am being cheap then i say, "there is a way around it you know". My problem witht the infinite was that I was under the impression that there was no way around it. When it comes down to it for me, the only cheap moves are the ones that you can do absolutely nothing about. So i ask everyone here, what do you do when there is no way out? Is it ok then to say that a move is officially cheap, noobish, or any other thing?

 

[TheReflexWonder]

That shirlin stuff was pretty deep. In actuallity, whenever my brothers say i am being cheap then i say, "there is a way around it you know". My problem witht the infinite was that I was under the impression that there was no way around it. When it comes down to it for me, the only cheap moves are the ones that you can do absolutely nothing about. So i ask everyone here, what do you do when there is no way out? Is it ok then to say that a move is officially cheap, noobish, or any other thing?

The thing is, the only way you know that for sure is by keeping it legal for a while, and even then, you leave it in tournaments. Something should be done when the metagame starts revolving around infinite comboes, and that's what starts winning tournaments. Until then, absolutely nothing; you accept it as a valid (albeit annoying) part of the game. That's the only way the metagame can evolve.

 

[phi1ny3]

Honored, and proud of Marth boards

Hey guys, like what I've been hearing. In melee, Marth was my main, and in Brawl, he ties with my other honorable fighter (lucario). All I have to say is, I agree, it would be cheap and against the xia (chinese code of honor) which is what I follow. Hope this gets fixed for the ness and Lucas mainers, or can be countered someday. If not, hopefully, they adapt. In the meantime, hold on the tactic, and wait for the psi-kids to gain their balance. If a fellow brawler loses his balance, one should not kick him while he is down. Adieu, fellow xiakes.
P.S. sorry bushido, it's a respectable system, but it doesn't fit my style.
P.S.S. Sonic wave, I may be out of my league in brawl compared to you, but preying like that doesn't have merits in my opinion. To rely on that only weakens you. On top of that, if anything, it doesn't quite make the game for what it was designed to be: take any char, pick a place, have fun.

 

[-Ran]

Opinion on the subject:
People that call for 'honor' in video games are deluded.

 

[Boat Mode]

Wheres that quote about scrubs and a code of honor and cheapness?
Honestly, you do what you have to to win
The only thing i have a problem with are stalling tactics b/c their ********.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Meh, I just play. If I want to win badly enough, I'll use the infinite. Also, stupid question lol...Everytime I do it on FD, they DI away towards the edge. Is there any way I can prevent them from doing this?

 

[takeurlife2]

Play To Win

 

[Dark Sonic]

Meh, I just play. If I want to win badly enough, I'll use the infinite. Also, stupid question lol...Everytime I do it on FD, they DI away towards the edge. Is there any way I can prevent them from doing this?

Nope. But you can just downsmash them before they reach the end of the stage. It'll probably kill them anyway.

 

[phi1ny3]

Re: Ran Iji

Opinion on the subject:
People that call for 'honor' in video games are deluded.

::looks at Ran's avatar::
uuuuummm...
K, u use ur anarchy, I'll stick with honor. Seriously though, have u no morals?

The Superior man is aware of righteousness, the inferior man is aware of advantage.
~Confucius

P.S. sorry, had 2 use it, but I agree with proverbs, however, a warning to Lucas and Ness players, plz branch into other chars. It's mean 2 know ur main is gone, but don't leave urself defenseless.

 

[OmegaXF]

Honor is a big ? in smash. People say it exist and people say it dosen't or it is innapropiate. I say If you wanna test that theory you should post a new thread and Thise who have this "Honor" and those who "don't.....need it,use it, or do whatever" go against each other and then we will see who is right and wrong. That right their is the truth.........
Lotion

 

[phi1ny3]

Honor is a big ? in smash. People say it exist and people say it dosen't or it is innapropiate. I say If you wanna test that theory you should post a new thread and Thise who have this "Honor" and those who "don't.....need it,use it, or do whatever" go against each other and then we will see who is right and wrong. That right their is the truth.........
Lotion

Like the way u think. I'm not necessarily sorry about the chaingrab as much as I am about the "chivalry is dead" topic. C'mon, where's the pride in Marth!?! although, I do see that "rogues" outnumber "knights". ::Sigh::
btw, which r u?

 

[OmegaXF]

Like the way u think. I'm not necessarily sorry about the chaingrab as much as I am about the "chivalry is dead" topic. C'mon, where's the pride in Marth!?! although, I do see that "rogues" outnumber "knights". ::Sigh::
btw, which r u?

Which am I....lol I am the Mercenary for Hire........ Pay.......................Lotion
That is who I am.

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Like the way u think. I'm not necessarily sorry about the chaingrab as much as I am about the "chivalry is dead" topic. C'mon, where's the pride in Marth!?! although, I do see that "rogues" outnumber "knights". ::Sigh::
btw, which r u?

You're kidding right?
Talking about chivalry in a video game?
Using or not using "cheap" tactics doesn't make a person either good or bad.

ITS A GAME

And in tournament, you PLAY TO WIN.

Friendlies, do whatever- play by whatever standards of "honor" or "chivalry" you feel necessary.

This topic has more than served its full purpose, and is just getting stagnant now- with new people finding it and blurting out their opinions that have already been stated by people much more qualified to argue both sides.

I'd ask that a mod close this, please.

 

[OmegaXF]

You're kidding right?
Talking about chivalry in a video game?
Using or not using "cheap" tactics doesn't make a person either good or bad.

ITS A GAME

And in tournament, you PLAY TO WIN.

Friendlies, do whatever- play by whatever standards of "honor" or "chivalry" you feel necessary.

This topic has more than served its full purpose, and is just getting stagnant now- with new people finding it and blurting out their opinions that have already been stated by people much more qualified to argue both sides.

I'd ask that a mod close this, please.

Thats excatly y I said make a new thread and lets fininsh this elsewhere.

 

[BacklashMarth]

You're kidding right?
Talking about chivalry in a video game?
Using or not using "cheap" tactics doesn't make a person either good or bad.

ITS A GAME

And in tournament, you PLAY TO WIN.

Friendlies, do whatever- play by whatever standards of "honor" or "chivalry" you feel necessary.

This topic has more than served its full purpose, and is just getting stagnant now- with new people finding it and blurting out their opinions that have already been stated by people much more qualified to argue both sides.

I'd ask that a mod close this, please.

I thought mods were meant to close threads that were either bashing people or just posted to incite the wrath of the online smash community. This topic isn't hurting anyone. If anything it probably will die out on its own like many others. I agree that cheap moves don't have anything to do with good or bad. That being said, it cant hurt to have more options at your disposal in case the person you play against suddenly discovers a way to crush your repetitive moveset. I was always under the impression that being unnpredictable was a good thing, but thats just me.

 

[Lord Aether]

he's not a moderator

 

[BacklashMarth]

he's not a moderator

I know. I didn't know what he was but i knew he wasn't a mod.

 

[ForteEscape]

Hopefully this is banned in tournaments.
I have a Ness playing friend who is on the verge of quitting him because of this.
For the sake of being fair, I never use this grab against him on wifi.
Also, my secondary is Lucas. I would hate to lose matches because of an infinite chaingrab D:

 

[BacklashMarth]

The best thing to do about the infinite right now is actually to find a reliable way out. Even if the method is hard, which I hear it is, just practice it so it isn't. I enourage all of the earthbounders out there to fix this problem by countering it so i can start using Lucas as a second in a tournament. (mainly to embarrass pit)

 

[Lord Aether]

Or just don't get grabbed. lol

 

[BacklashMarth]

Yea, or what Lord Aether said. (probably easier said then done though) I was just thinking about this. All of this mania over an inescapeable infinite probably has people across the boards testing for new ones. They will soon have to change the name of the game to super smash bros. infinite at this rate.

 

[OmegaXF]

This thread allows people to see the true colors of the online smash community. Backlash Marth you seem to know what your talking about. Just keep it up.

 

[Proverbs]

Now when you say escaped, do you mean directly out of the grab (like jump releasing out of the grab, because that's preventable), or do you mean that they moved away after the grab release and got away. If so I'd find that very strange. Try doing it on one fourth's speed with the Ness set to "control" and have the Ness hold shield. Look very carefully to see if a shield is able to pop up. If so then escaping the grab might be possible, but if not then there is just not enough time for Ness to escape (unless rolls come out faster than putting up a shield) as even a jab takes longer than bringing up a shield.

If I recall correctly it was the latter. Ness moved away after my grab and got away. It's not that uncommon as far as I've seen.

 

[Proverbs]

You're kidding right?
Talking about chivalry in a video game?
Using or not using "cheap" tactics doesn't make a person either good or bad.

ITS A GAME

And in tournament, you PLAY TO WIN.

Friendlies, do whatever- play by whatever standards of "honor" or "chivalry" you feel necessary.

This topic has more than served its full purpose, and is just getting stagnant now- with new people finding it and blurting out their opinions that have already been stated by people much more qualified to argue both sides.

I'd ask that a mod close this, please.

I personally don't agree with your point of view. I think one's morals and honor is constant throughout all parts of life. That being said, I realize that it is sort of stupid to mention it concerning a video game. What I saw as bad from the beginning it the fact that a whole load of people were losing their mains and everyone was just like "I don't care." It's that apathy that people need to shake themselves out of. That's where the honor comes in. But, as said, now that the Earthbounders are safe from oblivion, this won't be that bad to use in tournaments.


That being said, I agree that this topic should be closed (can I do that since I started it? I don't know how if I can) mostly because people are restating everything and it looks like most people haven't read the full topic or aren't up to speed on this chaingrab anyway.

Anyway, for what it's worth, my consent is given to terminate the topic. There's not much more to say. Ness and Lucas are safe and thus this topic isn't serving any purpose any more. But if you want to debate about honor in smash, there's probably a better area for that. So, can I close this thing or what?



EDIT: For the record--I agree with Sonic Wave and Emblem Lord (For the most part). Holding back is doing your opponent a disservice. It was the apathy concerning the real people playing the Nesses and Lucases that I disagreed on. Otherwise, play to win--but we're still not without hearts.

 

[OmegaXF]

Well said.................

 

[BacklashMarth]

Ditto*applauds*.

 

[OmegaXF]

Lol I just made Smash journeyman (totally off subject but somebody gatta know
This thread was worth the arguing and stuff though. At least earthbounders are saved by marth......n Lotion.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Awesome! Another Marther joins the ranks. Oh, while I've got your attention, lotion and bacon are key! I can't believe I never realized that. For me, DUNKING IS KEY!!!! (c-sticking is key too, but not like sweet, sweet lotion)

 

[Vyse]

Marth's Stupid Rule.

If at any time in a 1 v 1, there is a Marth against an Earthbounder, Both players may double blind repick unless they agree to the matchup.

lolololololol.

But seriously. We all remember our good friend Wobbles and the sheer amount of backlash he received. We all knew about the IC's infinite grab, but Wobbles was the first to really cause a controversy by using it in a reasonably high profile tournament.

Just my 2 cents.
(Sorry if its been said already)

 

[phi1ny3]

You're kidding right?
Talking about chivalry in a video game?
Using or not using "cheap" tactics doesn't make a person either good or bad.

ITS A GAME

And in tournament, you PLAY TO WIN.

Friendlies, do whatever- play by whatever standards of "honor" or "chivalry" you feel necessary.

This topic has more than served its full purpose, and is just getting stagnant now- with new people finding it and blurting out their opinions that have already been stated by people much more qualified to argue both sides.

I'd ask that a mod close this, please.

Sorry, I didn't say that the cheapness was as much the issue, once again, I was more intrigued by Marthers who would act "anarchial". Intriguing, very. BTW, how one plays reflects a bit on who is playing, hence why I bring it up.

 

[phi1ny3]

I personally don't agree with your point of view. I think one's morals and honor is constant throughout all parts of life. That being said, I realize that it is sort of stupid to mention it concerning a video game. What I saw as bad from the beginning it the fact that a whole load of people were losing their mains and everyone was just like "I don't care." It's that apathy that people need to shake themselves out of. That's where the honor comes in. But, as said, now that the Earthbounders are safe from oblivion, this won't be that bad to use in tournaments.


That being said, I agree that this topic should be closed (can I do that since I started it? I don't know how if I can) mostly because people are restating everything and it looks like most people haven't read the full topic or aren't up to speed on this chaingrab anyway.

Anyway, for what it's worth, my consent is given to terminate the topic. There's not much more to say. Ness and Lucas are safe and thus this topic isn't serving any purpose any more. But if you want to debate about honor in smash, there's probably a better area for that. So, can I close this thing or what?



EDIT: For the record--I agree with Sonic Wave and Emblem Lord (For the most part). Holding back is doing your opponent a disservice. It was the apathy concerning the real people playing the Nesses and Lucases that I disagreed on. Otherwise, play to win--but we're still not without hearts.

I agree on the last part. However, It's one thing to have an advantage due to playing style, thus they shouldn't be spared, because that's lack of knowledge. Another to have relatively little playing skill, and still have an unbeatable advantage. So if I'm hearing this correctly, is there still hope for Ness to escape? I'm hearing contro everywhere, and apparently, I'm getting pretty unpopular to the "knave" marths. Oh well, back to the Luc. boards...

P.S. Yes close, this makes me die on the inside (starts slitting wrists).
jk

 

[theGreatDekuTree]

10charpostferno

 

[whut?]

if ness or lucas had a 0-death chaingrab against marth holy **** you know they would abuse it.
if a marth player posted on those forums they would get this same response im giving.
you have to learn to live with it, there are ways around this frustrating chaingrab.
ddd has an infinite against multiple characters, way more than just ness and lucas.
but do mario mains go on the ddd boards asking for 'honor'?

edit: why make a thread when you are just going to close it anyway.

 

[phi1ny3]

I suppose not, but dedede is more "rogueish", as he does screw up Dreamland a lot. Marth though, is a legend. But I suppose I'm wasting my breath (or typing, I should say). Honor's dead, as they say, both in modern society and Brawl. I was stupid to support the "Honor party", and it has lost election. Forget it guys. Besides, if it's just Marth, I guess it could be alright... Lol
Btw, thanks to those who opposed the honor. It brought discussion to the "interesting" level, but I do agree it was repetitive (probably bcuz of me being there, lol).

:oughs:: that would be the que to end this:oughs::

RUNS AROUND IN UNDERWEAR, FREAKAZOID! FREAKAZOID!