A Proposal Regarding Marth's Honor--The Ness/Lucas 'Chaingrab'

[Lord Aether]

I believe that's survival of the fittest.

 

[Proverbs]

I'm no longer petitioning against using this technique as Ness and Lucas aren't ruined. That was the only thing I was trying to prevent. Now it's equal to the other infinite chaingrabs and until all infinite chaingrabs are banned (you can't ban just this one now that it's in equal magnitude to the others that are character specific), I'll be using it too if I get the chance for a free 20% or an f-smash that leads to a KO.

 

[Impact009]

I'm no longer petitioning against using this technique as Ness and Lucas aren't ruined. That was the only thing I was trying to prevent. Now it's equal to the other infinite chaingrabs and until all infinite chaingrabs are banned (you can't ban just this one now that it's in equal magnitude to the others that are character specific), I'll be using it too if I get the chance for a free 20% or an f-smash that leads to a KO.

So...you're going to use this technique too since you don't think Ness and Lucas are ruined. That's fine, but what I don't understand is what exactly changed. The chaingrabs are still there, and chances are they're still going to lose a stock if they get chaingrabbed. True infinite CGs have always been equal in magnitude, so why did you change your mind, and what happened to the morals?

I'm not mocking you; I'm actually interested in why. Your reasons for doing so have always been true even before you started the petition.

 

[Proverbs]

Because I started this because I believed the Ness and Lucas mainers needed someone in their defense being that their mains were about to be ruined for all eternity. Now that there are only two characters (Marth and PT) that can grab Ness infinitely and only Marth for Lucas, these guys can still fare absolutely well in tournaments while being a little wary of Marths and PTs. So: Because it's not hurting them and they now can survive, they don't need anyone to protect them.

Essentially, because this isn't destroying people's mains, hopes, and dreams--I have a lot less qualms about the issue. And being that even Ness can escape from even Marth, this technique can be used and isn't ridiculously cheap. It's no longer a ridiculous threat that knocks them into their own tier.

That's why. Do you need more clarification? I think I was clear but I'm sort of rushing. Ness is my secondary, by the way (as I'm sure you know).

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Someone already mentioned David Sirlin?
I have nothing to contribute then.

Play to win.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Exactly, I don't care if I have to camp, spam, or infinite, I'll do anything in my power to win.

If it was the final match between me and a Lucas/Ness at a tournament I'd infinite grab like nuts.

 

[uremog]

infinite grab like nuts

they're just boys, but they have the right to have babies too

 

[Galeon]

Not gonna lie. I'm a Lucas main and if I had an infinite grab like this on Marth, I wouldn't think twice about using it. I'd abuse it shamelessly. I'd probably find it funny.

With that said, I'm gonna continue using Lucas in tournies despite Marths.

 

[Crizthakidd]

ill probably not do this unless its the only way to come back , meaning im 2 stocks behind and its an important match

the knowledge that u CAN do it or not.

will u pick the dark side and abuse the hell out of this? or fight honorly ?

lol basically last resort kind of thing that pains me to see lucas and ness fans have this happen to them

 

[The Alpha Gundam]

Play to win.

QFT

Spoiler

10 Chars

 

[Gerbil]

Hi Full Metal ^.^

To everyone else - Welcome to the fighting game community. Deal with it. >.>

 

[Dogysamich]

-johns-

http://www.sirlin.net/ptw

If you want to "play with honor", go to japan and play for rankings.

Plain and simple.

__

Its one thing for me to argue about all the random people brawl is bringing in, but oh dear god why do random no-name people come in here with this "honor" bs.

Go win EVO with your "Honor" and then talk.

 

[Anomic_Punk]

Word, GA knows about how ghey certain characters can be in brawl...

But thats just how it is. Its not about "honor" or "dishonor"
In tournament, its about who wins and loses- despite whatever means.
Camping, chainthrowing, w/e-

Play to win.

Edit:
Sup Alpha, Gerbil, Dogy!
Since when do you guys poke around in the Marth forums?
=P

 

[The Marth]

I see this as being up to the person. Usually, some1 who plays cheap sucks at playing the game, and rely on cheap tactix to win. I also have no problem with losing, as long as the one who skoold me was playin "honorably" i guess. Some people will use it anyways, but they will be hated for that. I prefer to win/lose fair and have a good time then get killed by some cheap n00b who NEEDS to rely on these tactics to win.

I would use this infinite chaingrab only for a little bit. even if I was loosing, I would not resort to cheap stuff. Its kind of like that I never play as red marth- respect for Ken.

Lol that was cheesy >_<
Basically, its about RESPECT

 

[Unusual_Rex]

Honor? Are you guys for real? It's a bloody video game for goodness sake. Like Anomic_Punk said, Play To Win.

 

[The Marth]

Yes, but is it not good to treat an opponent with respect? In everything you do, its a good virtue to have. you would b looked down on if you relied on this crap to win your matches

 

[NESSBOUNDER]

Since it's not as bad as it was originally thought, it just turns out that Lucas/Lucario duos will be more common instead of Ness/Lucas duos.

Or Metaknight, I dunno who's the best counter-pick for Marth.

 

[Boat Mode]

proverbs, alittle advice
pushing your point through telling others their immoral for being what you call unfair is not what i would call a winning strategy
and although i see this as a bit unfair, i cant see it being banned

 

[OmegaXF]

It's actually about 4 or 5 who can perform this exact same infinite...

And orintemple, getting angry at him because he posted a religious quote is very intolerant. And people say that those who practice religion are intolerant! You should have just ignored it.

It dont matter who the characters are all I know is that Falco needs his chain grab, in fact he needs all the help possible even with a chaingrab and laser lock, iceclimbers need help too, even with their chain grab they still need more added to make them stand up with the very best. Marth is straight as is, a few nerfs and some good additions added for brawl. This chain grab is useless for him, and those who abuse it have no skill and if they do have skill I just gotta murder them because when u fight in a tourny the whole point is to FIGHT not cheat. It's easy to abuse, but it's easier to play your all and improve your game overall. And the chain grab gives no Lotion people, there is utterly no point in using this.... lol

 

[OmegaXF]

Honor? Are you guys for real? It's a bloody video game for goodness sake. Like Anomic_Punk said, Play To Win.

If you play to win, but act like a dck in the process you'll get no where. If ppl abuse it the Earthbounders just gatta do one thing
"Don't Get Hit"- Azen

 

[BacklashMarth]

Ok, its nice to know that the infinite chain grab isn't all that infinite. Maybe i will be able to get back at that ness who beat me and my brother in a tournament by using this and i won't feel bad about it. If there is a way around a cheap move or out of it, then I have no problem using it (or having one used against me). Don't disrespect the honor though. It takes a lot of self control to not take advantage of something like this and i respect those who want to keep the playing field level in brawl. But honestly do you want to win a tournament and after the money is gone have people say "look at the guy who mastered pressing the z button, man that takes skill". Or you could destroy them in a more difficult but flashier way and have people say "wow, that guy can pwn me six to seven different ways from sunday".

Please Note: In the end I sorta don't care what happens now that i know the two boys stand a chance to get out of the chain.

 

[Warlock*G]

Honor... in a game. O_O

BAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[BacklashMarth]

Trust me. Honor exists. Its just unspoken respect and courtesy (that is the closest i can get to describing this for those whom the concept eludes). Just like i don't steal becuz i don't want people robbing me. Even though honor is similar to skill in that they are both relative in meaning to the person using them, abstractness doesn't negate existance. Also consider this. I am assuming of course that some people believe that honor exists in real life but not for a video game. If that is the case, then how do you account for real life tournaments where real life money is on the line for the real life results of the real life matches pitting real life people against real life opponents, in real life of course. In case my repetition didn't strike a chord with you then i will state my point. If real life has video games and we hinge real life decisions (who gets the victory money) on them, then its only reasonable to apply real life concepts to them such as honor. Of course honor probably doesn't matter to those who don't have it and this is perfectly fine. I refuse to force anyone to do or have something that they don't want to. Free will is what makes people people.

 

[Warlock*G]

Honor. I would describe it as an artificial construct, that exists in society, based on interaction and mutual understanding between individuals. Alright. But the problem with "honor" in smash is that you take an abstract construct, and put it in yet *another* construct, a game consisting of other rules that won't necessarily match your homemade "honor" rule. Plus, we're talking about fictive characters here.

My point is, just play the game. "Honor"... it sounds too serious for Smash.

Edit:

Trust me. Honor exists. Its just unspoken respect and courtesy (that is the closest i can get to describing this for those whom the concept eludes). Just like i don't steal becuz i don't want people robbing me.

I wasn't saying honor doesn't exist, just that it is innapropriate for Smash.

Oh, and you don't steal "because you don't want other people robbing you"? Well, I'm all for respecting other people's property (trust me on that one), but here that's assuming other people can do something about it if you steal. And they can, because of laws, because of the use of force. So it's not necessarily honor, although it could be: are you preventing yourself from stealing because you think it to be morally wrong (i.e. you're honourable), or because of the consequences? Judging from what you just typed, the consequences are what prevents you from stealing.

Honourable, eh?

 

[BacklashMarth]

You can play the game with honor. I play a decent marth AND i play honorably. In the end, honor comes down to player input (i.e. the way you press the buttons on the controller to move your character, even if they are ficticious, the command inputs are definitely real). I sorta agree that honor sounds too serious for smash but i sorta don't care. Its kinda hard to say that anything too serious for brawl when money is involved. Money takes everything to a whole new level of seriousness.

 

[Warlock*G]

You can play the game with honor. I play a decent marth AND i play honorably. In the end, honor comes down to player input (i.e. the way you press the buttons on the controller to move your character, even if they are ficticious, the command inputs are definitely real). I sorta agree that honor sounds too serious for smash but i sorta don't care.

Oh I totally agree, but I also made an Edit on honor, without really defining honor further because I didn't want to write an essay...

 

[zamz]

You can play the game with honor. I play a decent marth AND i play honorably. In the end, honor comes down to player input (i.e. the way you press the buttons on the controller to move your character, even if they are ficticious, the command inputs are definitely real). I sorta agree that honor sounds too serious for smash but i sorta don't care.

Honor is not only limited to real life, it can certainly exist in games. It's honorable to let someone finish their taunt before attacking them. It's honorable to give up your seat and let an elderly person on the bus sit down. It's honorable to let your best friend score the winning point in Basketball so that he can look good in front of his girlfriend.

Honor comes in all shapes and sizes.

But, that being said, honor is not a requirement. You don't have to give up your seat for anyone. You don't have to be nice to a ness. If you wish to be an ***, it's your choice to be one.

Though I can't imagine ANYONE trying to brag about a chaingrab game. I think it would take away the fun of the competition. It would ruin any feeling at all about winning if that's the only reason why you won. It also says something about how well you play. You're not confident enough to win normally, so you are reduced to abusing an unintended side-effect of the character's moves to gain an advantage.

I could certainly imagine it becoming an honorable code, considering people want to be able to say they won the world's biggest tournement based on pure skill. Not because they CG'd Lucas twice getting and gaining two free stocks.

Just wait until tournement-players realize their games are being recorded. When the world's best players are shown beating Ness/Lucas only because they can ChainGrab, I'm sure the practice will stop. People want to be able to say they won fair and square, that they won based on pure skill. Not because they can push Z twenty times.

At the very least, it looks like a noob thing to do.

 

[Emblem Lord]

This is ridiculous.

You know what I consider honorable?

When somone comes at me with everything they have and give it their all in an attempt to utterly crush me.

Holding back and not using the full extent of thier characters abilities, is dishonorable in my eyes and I consider it insulting.

If ever face a Ness or Lucas in tourney I will obliterate them with htis infinite, because that is the honorable thing to do.

We are warriors on the battlefield, and we come to test our mettle against one another. Holding back spits on the values that competition is founded on.

Case in point, when I played BUM online, yes BUM the DK player, he would constantly kill himself when ever he took off a stock from me.

Now later on when I asked him why does he do that, and he said he just did it to see if I would get angry. I wasn't angry at all. But if that had been a tournament match I would have been furious. Doing something like that is just a slap in the face. It means that you don't take your opponent seriously at all and you see them as no threat.

Well not using the re-grab infinite is the same thing IMO.

IMO I think holding back or not abusing tactics is scrubby and disrespectful. I want no part of it.

I would NEVER expect an IC player to not do the f-throw/b-throw infinite on Marth. It's pretty easy to do on him and it's effective as well. They SHOULD use it, since it helps them out in the match-up and I expect them to use it.

Same concept here.

 

[JesiahTEG]

Emblem Lord FTW

 

[memphischains]

everyone in this thread needs to read "playing to win" and abuse the chaingrab because it is the right thing to do.

as a ness/lucas "main", if a marth doesn use the chaingrab agianst me i will have to physically hurt them for being so stupid

 

[Dogysamich]

Trust me. Honor exists.

it exists in a majority of the smash community (yes smash, not melee, not brawl, smash) because the smash community is unlike any other fighting game and thinks it's immune to common law and the universal way of working. Which is why it is, in large, looked down upon.

I swear to god, I wish MvC2 was played "with honor", it might actually be an interesting game to watch.

__

So i'll say this again, for you and any other random person who thinks that because they can pick up a smash game and revolutionize the whole entire competitive game universe.

Go win EVO with your "Honor", and then talk.

 

[BacklashMarth]

Honor. I would describe it as an artificial construct, that exists in society, based on interaction and mutual understanding between individuals. Alright. But the problem with "honor" in smash is that you take an abstract construct, and put it in yet *another* construct, a game consisting of other rules that won't necessarily match your homemade "honor" rule. Plus, we're talking about fictive characters here.

My point is, just play the game. "Honor"... it sounds too serious for Smash.

Edit:



I wasn't saying honor doesn't exist, just that it is innapropriate for Smash.

Oh, and you don't steal "because you don't want other people robbing you"? Well, I'm all for respecting other people's property (trust me on that one), but here that's assuming other people can do something about it if you steal. And they can, because of laws, because of the use of force. So it's not necessarily honor, although it could be: are you preventing yourself from stealing because you think it to be morally wrong (i.e. you're honourable), or because of the consequences? Judging from what you just typed, the consequences are what prevents you from stealing.

Honourable, eh?

Oh by no means do the consequences only keep me from doing things that are immoral. I was making a stand for those who don't believe in right or wrong. Think of this, why do you think that some crimes such as murder are on the rise? Its because we (the "justice" system) have gotten lax on punishments for crimes. People used to commit less murder because we hung those who did. I say this to say that consequences are a widespread reason for the avoidence of commiting certain acts.

 

[Dogysamich]

Oh by no means do the consequences only keep me from doing things that are immoral. I was making a stand for those who don't believe in right or wrong. Think of this, why do you think that some crimes such as murder are on the rise? Its because we (the "justice" system) have gotten lax on punishments for crimes. People used to commit less murder because we hung those who did. I say this to say that consequences are a widespread reason for the avoidence of commiting certain acts.

we're not talking about crime, we're talking about competitive gaming.

Stop making outstanding comparisons and look at what has happened time and time again.

And I will say this one more time.

If you really want to live by this "honor code" bs and make it big, go, win, evo.
​

 

[BacklashMarth]

it exists in a majority of the smash community (yes smash, not melee, not brawl, smash) because the smash community is unlike any other fighting game and thinks it's immune to common law and the universal way of working. Which is why it is, in large, looked down upon.

I swear to god, I wish MvC2 was played "with honor", it might actually be an interesting game to watch.

__

So i'll say this again, for you and any other random person who thinks that because they can pick up a smash game and revolutionize the whole entire competitive game universe.

Go win EVO with your "Honor", and then talk.

I've said that i realize that tournaments don't exactly run on the "honor" code. However, saying "go win EVO with your honor, and then talk" is like saying "marth doesn't stand a chance if he doesn't abuse this chaingrab". I am pretty sure that marth could hold his own agains ness and lucas without strangling them before the tecnique was discovered. Also, by no means am I trying to revolutionize anything. It takes to much effort to make people conform to anything and you can't force anything (especially honor in this case) on people.

 

[BacklashMarth]

we're not talking about crime, we're talking about competitive gaming.

Stop making outstanding comparisons and look at what has happened time and time again.

And I will say this one more time.

If you really want to live by this "honor code" bs and make it big, go, win, evo.
​

I was using the crime analogy to prove a point. It was actually about why people do and don't do things. Of course we aren't talking about crime but that doesn't mean i can refference it. Do you have a suggestion for a better comparison to use in my argument??? No matter what comparison i make either you will say its off the wall or i will say its not good enough thus creating a stalemate. I'm open to suggestions. As for the tournament, i will get back to you on that when they actually start one near where i live. Regaurdless, tournament experience or winning one has nothing to do with the credibility of your statements. Bash honor code all you want, I don't mind cuz doesn't chang a thing.

 

[Unusual_Rex]

If you play to win, but act like a dck in the process you'll get no where. If ppl abuse it the Earthbounders just gatta do one thing
"Don't Get Hit"- Azen

I'm not trying to act like a ****, I just use any means to win.

 

[SK8orDIE]

i think it's good that people are interested in stepping in and addressing this, but i'm not sure how universally enforcible this is. i also think it is our duty as consumers to notify Nintendo and that the burden should be on the developer to either defend or correct this grab property against Ness/Lucas. i know that Sakurai supposedly said something about not patching or adding content to the game (besides the bug fixes between regional releases), but this just means that we are underestimating the power of a vocal majority.

 

[Jibbles]

This is ridiculous.

You know what I consider honorable?

When somone comes at me with everything they have and give it their all in an attempt to utterly crush me.

Holding back and not using the full extent of thier characters abilities, is dishonorable in my eyes and I consider it insulting.

If ever face a Ness or Lucas in tourney I will obliterate them with htis infinite, because that is the honorable thing to do.

We are warriors on the battlefield, and we come to test our mettle against one another. Holding back spits on the values that competition is founded on.

Case in point, when I played BUM online, yes BUM the DK player, he would constantly kill himself when ever he took off a stock from me.

Now later on when I asked him why does he do that, and he said he just did it to see if I would get angry. I wasn't angry at all. But if that had been a tournament match I would have been furious. Doing something like that is just a slap in the face. It means that you don't take your opponent seriously at all and you see them as no threat.

Well not using the re-grab infinite is the same thing IMO.

IMO I think holding back or not abusing tactics is scrubby and disrespectful. I want no part of it.

I would NEVER expect an IC player to not do the f-throw/b-throw infinite on Marth. It's pretty easy to do on him and it's effective as well. They SHOULD use it, since it helps them out in the match-up and I expect them to use it.

Same concept here.

Couldn't have said it any better

 

[Anomic_Punk]

This is ridiculous.

You know what I consider honorable?

When somone comes at me with everything they have and give it their all in an attempt to utterly crush me.

Holding back and not using the full extent of thier characters abilities, is dishonorable in my eyes and I consider it insulting.

If ever face a Ness or Lucas in tourney I will obliterate them with htis infinite, because that is the honorable thing to do.

We are warriors on the battlefield, and we come to test our mettle against one another. Holding back spits on the values that competition is founded on.

Case in point, when I played BUM online, yes BUM the DK player, he would constantly kill himself when ever he took off a stock from me.

Now later on when I asked him why does he do that, and he said he just did it to see if I would get angry. I wasn't angry at all. But if that had been a tournament match I would have been furious. Doing something like that is just a slap in the face. It means that you don't take your opponent seriously at all and you see them as no threat.

Well not using the re-grab infinite is the same thing IMO.

IMO I think holding back or not abusing tactics is scrubby and disrespectful. I want no part of it.

I would NEVER expect an IC player to not do the f-throw/b-throw infinite on Marth. It's pretty easy to do on him and it's effective as well. They SHOULD use it, since it helps them out in the match-up and I expect them to use it.

Same concept here.

Quoted for Motha****ing truth.


An excerpt from David Sirlin, titled "Introducing the Scrub"
(Its long as hell)

"In the world of Street Fighter competition, we have a word for players who aren’t good: “scrub.” Now, everyone begins as a scrub—it takes time to learn the game to get to a point where you know what you’re doing. There is the mistaken notion, though, that by merely continuing to play or “learn” the game, that one can become a top player. In reality, the “scrub” has many more mental obstacles to overcome than anything actually going on during the game. The scrub has lost the game even before it starts. He’s lost the game before he’s chosen his character. He’s lost the game even before the decision of which game is to be played has been made. His problem? He does not play to win.

The scrub would take great issue with this statement for he usually believes that he is playing to win, but he is bound up by an intricate construct of fictitious rules that prevent him from ever truly competing. These made up rules vary from game to game, of course, but their character remains constant. In Street Fighter, for example, the scrub labels a wide variety of tactics and situations “cheap.” So-called “cheapness” is truly the mantra of the scrub. Performing a throw on someone often called cheap. A throw is a special kind of move that grabs an opponent and damages him, even when the opponent is defending against all other kinds of attacks. The entire purpose of the throw is to be able to damage an opponent who sits and blocks and doesn’t attack. As far as the game is concerned, throwing is an integral part of the design—it’s meant to be there—yet the scrub has constructed his own set of principles in his mind that state he should be totally impervious to all attacks while blocking. The scrub thinks of blocking as a kind of magic shield which will protect him indefinitely. Why? Exploring the reasoning is futile since the notion is ridiculous from the start.

You’re not going to see a classic scrub throw his opponent 5 times in a row. But why not? What if doing so is strategically the sequence of moves that optimize his chances of winning? Here we’ve encountered our first clash: the scrub is only willing to play to win within his own made-up mental set of rules. These rules can be staggeringly arbitrary. If you beat a scrub by throwing projectile attacks at him, keeping your distance and preventing him from getting near you…that’s cheap. If you throw him repeatedly, that’s cheap, too. We’ve covered that one. If you sit in block for 50 seconds doing no moves, that’s cheap. Nearly anything you do that ends up making you win is a prime candidate for being called cheap.

Doing one move or sequence over and over and over is another great way to get called cheap. This goes right to the heart of the matter: why can the scrub not defeat something so obvious and telegraphed as a single move done over and over? Is he such a poor player that he can’t counter that move? And if the move is, for whatever reason, extremely difficult to counter, then wouldn’t I be a fool for not using that move? The first step in becoming a top player is the realization that playing to win means doing whatever most increases your chances of winning. The game knows no rules of “honor” or of “cheapness.” The game only knows winning and losing.

A common call of the scrub is to cry that the kind of play in which ones tries to win at all costs is “boring” or “not fun.” Let’s consider two groups of players: a group of good players and a group of scrubs. The scrubs will play “for fun” and not explore the extremities of the game. They won’t find the most effective tactics and abuse them mercilessly. The good players will. The good players will find incredibly overpowering tactics and patterns. As they play the game more, they’ll be forced to find counters to those tactics. The vast majority of tactics that at first appear unbeatable end up having counters, though they are often quite esoteric and difficult to discover. The counter tactic prevents the first player from doing the tactic, but the first player can then use a counter to the counter. The second player is now afraid to use his counter and he’s again vulnerable to the original overpowering tactic. (See my article on Yomi layer 3 for much more on that.)

Notice that the good players are reaching higher and higher levels of play. They found the “cheap stuff” and abused it. They know how to stop the cheap stuff. They know how to stop the other guy from stopping it so they can keep doing it. And as is quite common in competitive games, many new tactics will later be discovered that make the original cheap tactic look wholesome and fair. Often in fighting games, one character will have something so good it’s unfair. Fine, let him have that. As time goes on, it will be discovered that other characters have even more powerful and unfair tactics. Each player will attempt to steer the game in the direction of his own advantages, much how grandmaster chess players attempt to steer opponents into situations in which their opponents are weak.

Let’s return to the group of scrubs. They don’t know the first thing about all the depth I’ve been talking about. Their argument is basically that ignorantly mashing buttons with little regard to actual strategy is more “fun.” Superficially, their argument does at least look true, since often their games will be more “wet and wild” than games between the experts, which are usually more controlled and refined. But any close examination will reveal that the experts are having a great deal of fun on a higher level than the scrub can even imagine. Throwing together some circus act of a win isn’t nearly as satisfying as reading your opponent’s mind to such a degree that you can counter his ever move, even his every counter.

Can you imagine what will happen when the two groups of players meet? The experts will absolutely destroy the scrubs with any number of tactics they’ve either never seen, or never been truly forced to counter. This is because the scrubs have not been playing the same game. The experts were playing the actual game while the scrubs were playing their own homemade variant with restricting, unwritten rules.

The scrub has still more crutches. He talks a great deal about “skill” and how he has skill whereas other players—very much including the ones who beat him flat out—do not have skill. The confusion here is what “skill” actually is. In Street Fighter, scrubs often cling to combos as a measure of skill. A combo is sequence of moves that are unblockable if the first move hits. Combos can be very elaborate and very difficult to pull off. But single moves can also take “skill,” according to the scrub. The “dragon punch” or “uppercut” in Street Fighter is performed by holding the joystick toward the opponent, then down, then diagonally down and toward as the player presses a punch button. This movement must be completed within a fraction of a second, and though there is leeway, it must be executed fairly accurately. Ask any scrub and they will tell you that a dragon punch is a “skill move.” Just last week I played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him 5 times in a row asking, “is that all you know how to do? throw?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that scrub’s life. He could either write his losses off and continue living in his mental prison, or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

I’ve never been to a tournament where there was a prize for the winner and another prize for the player who did many difficult moves. I’ve also never seen a prize for a player who played “in an innovative way.” Many scrubs have strong ties to “innovation.” They say “that guy didn’t do anything new, so he is no good.” Or “person x invented that technique and person y just stole it.” Well, person y might be 100 times better than person x, but that doesn’t seem to matter. When person y wins the tournament and person x is a forgotten footnote, what will the scrub say? That person y has “no skill” of course."



Again, in tournament I would urge all you Marth players out there:

PLAY TO WIN

 

[Dogysamich]

IHowever, saying "go win EVO with your honor, and then talk" is like saying "marth doesn't stand a chance if he doesn't abuse this chaingrab". I am pretty sure that marth could hold his own agains ness and lucas without strangling them before the tecnique was discovered.

I'd take a stab in the dark and say marth can be fine without it yes, but guess what? He can do it, that's what makes him better.

That's like saying sheik could beat the low tiers in melee without chaingrabbing

Magneto could beat 75% of the mvc2 cast w/o infinites
Chun-li could beat 3s w/o c.mk
Testament could beat people w/o the badland loop.
SFII players could beat people w/o throws.

(insert more "cheap" tactics here)

If you want to limit yourself from what the game gives you because "it's the honorable thing to do", feel free. But, just like it's always been in every other game ever created, the people who win will be the ones doing it.

If it's really that "broken", it will be banned.

And for the record, unless the brawl community is as dumb as people make it out to be, it wont be. It will just be like the old IC rule. Dont get grabbed.