Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[BJN39]

btw guys and gals, if need be we can always just add a note by the score about a recommendation for rediscussion at a later date.

I don't think it's that bad to have initial scores, it for the time being can at least give us insight of what to look out for in the MU, which can help Zeldas who don't have a lot of MU experience yet.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Ok ok I've played against few luigis in tournaments and I also mained him before so I know how he works. Let me contribute

In neutral game zelda just needs to space herself since luigi really looks for a grab. Space with pivot grabs, fsmash, and ftilt since we outranges him. When he spams fireballs, Dins become really helpful since they are gonna sheild, they aren't just gonna get hit by it and the shield fraction from luigi gives us an opening to approach. Don't sheild a lot because a grab combo from luigi can do 40%. If you see a tornado just fricken fsmash. He has a great airgame so I wouldn't try to challenge him in the air.

Offstage luigi may have a good recovery but it's super easy to gimp. Dins fire stops his missile and since his SJP doesn't have a lingering Hitbox like mario, he's easy to spike. Dins fire isn't a bad option. If he gets hit by a sourspot and loses his jump, then most likely he's dead.

In K.O.s it's pretty even since luigis Bair and smashes are strong but zelda has the elevator and her smashes kill early. Luigis SJP isn't really an option since the his sheild fraction makes it not a OOS option. I wouldn't worry about that.

Key moves would be
Fsmash for spacing and stopping tornados,
Dins for edgeguarding and approaching,
phantom for the reasons everyone else put,
Elevator, it kills
Dair, she can get a quick kill and spike

Stages, no platforms since luigi juggles really well and benefit him more. FD is the best option for zelda

In conclusion I think that the MU is 6:4.

Can't Luigi act really fast after throwing his fireballs? Why would a Luigi player spam fireballs at a range where we can pressure with super slow Din's Fire? And Din's has such bad lag, combined with Zelda's terrible mobility, means that in most cases even if they do shield it, we can't reach them fast enough to do much. In my opinion, we're better off blocking his fireballs with Phantom than trying to counter with Din's.

Countering Tornado with fmash works if they get really predictable or they do it from a distance. But if they do it at closer range, fsmash won't come out in time and we'll get hit, or we'll trade -- and Zelda's moves always trade horribly. He can also use it as a quick whiff punish.

I definitely disagree that the match is even when it comes to kill potential. Zelda's smash attacks do not kill early. Her fmash has medicore KO power and definitely kills him later than his quick fmash will kill us. On top of that, it's unreliable and Luigi may fall out of it at KO percent (I've lost matches on FG because my fmash failed to connect properly). Her usmash has terrible range, lag, and doesn't generally kill until 120+. And like fmash , it's not completely reliable as people still fall out of it occasionally. Dsmash doesn't kill early either. But it can be used to get him off stage for a change to gimp with D-air. The Elevator doesn't appear to be reliable either. I can't confirm if it's the case for Luigi, but I've had some players DI and avoid the second hit from the Elevator; I don't think it's guaranteed. Luigi's smash attacks kill us earlier than ours kill him, they're more reliable, and (I believe) they suffer less end lag.

I can't see this match up in our favor. We out range him and have a better recovery, but that's pretty much it. He has vastly greater combo potential (and thus greater damage output), has better approach options, and has more reliable early kill options. I'd say it's 45:55, in Luigi's favor. Maybe it's 50:50, but that's the best I can see it being.

 

[Zylach]

I definitely disagree that the match is even when it comes to kill potential. Zelda's smash attacks do not kill early. Her fmash has medicore KO power and definitely kills him later than his quick fmash will kill us. On top of that, it's unreliable and Luigi may fall out of it at KO percent (I've lost matches on FG because my fmash failed to connect properly). Her usmash has terrible range, lag, and doesn't generally kill until 120+. And like fmash , it's not completely reliable as people still fall out of it occasionally. Dsmash doesn't kill early either. But it can be used to get him off stage for a change to gimp with D-air. The Elevator doesn't appear to be reliable either. I can't confirm if it's the case for Luigi, but I've had some players DI and avoid the second hit from the Elevator; I don't think it's guaranteed. Luigi's smash attacks kill us earlier than ours kill him, they're more reliable, and (I believe) they suffer less end lag.

Zelda doesn't rely on her smashes for kills. Fsmash is the only smash attack I rely on for kills and that's against characters that are really fast that I can't catch with her other kill moves early. The only other one that may net kills reliably is dsmash and that usually only gets kills because of the angle it sends characters, not for the distance. Since so many characters have great recoveries in this game, that dsmash angle is less of a reliable killer than it used to be. What Zelda relies on are her aerials and specials. Fair, bair, uair, dair, FW, Din's (for offstage kills mostly and those will be rare but it can kill, that's how it was designed), and phantom are all reliable kill moves that can net kills as early as 70-80%. Dair can kill at 30% since it's a meteor smash, one of the best in the game I might add. Yes, challenging Weegee in the air is risky but this is where Zelda generally kills, not on the ground with smashes. The ground is where she racks up damage by outspacing Weegee and getting those grabs she's so reliant on.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Zelda doesn't rely on her smashes for kills. Fsmash is the only smash attack I rely on for kills and that's against characters that are really fast that I can't catch with her other kill moves early. The only other one that may net kills reliably is dsmash and that usually only gets kills because of the angle it sends characters, not for the distance. Since so many characters have great recoveries in this game, that dsmash angle is less of a reliable killer than it used to be. What Zelda relies on are her aerials and specials. Fair, bair, uair, dair, FW, Din's (for offstage kills mostly and those will be rare but it can kill, that's how it was designed), and phantom are all reliable kill moves that can net kills as early as 70-80%. Dair can kill at 30% since it's a meteor smash, one of the best in the game I might add. Yes, challenging Weegee in the air is risky but this is where Zelda generally kills, not on the ground with smashes. The ground is where she racks up damage by outspacing Weegee and getting those grabs she's so reliant on.

I know Zelda doesn't rely on her smashes for kills. I was responding to a claim that her smashes net early kills -- which they generally do not.

Her aerials are not reliable kill moves. Her Lightning Kicks' sweetspot often makes landing them at KO percent more difficult than it is for opponents to land their KO moves on us. On top of that, the end lag and landing lag make them so punishable that we have to be very careful when we use them or we'll be punished with a KO move. Uair is difficult to land as well and is only really reliable if we combo into it from dtilt and they don't DI. Dair is somewhat reliable because of its larger sweetspot and Zelda's ability to safely go deep off the stage. FW isn't reliable either. In order to land the Elevator, we have to either get a hard read or hope the opponent makes a big mistake. And even then, it seems that many characters can DI the second hit and avoid being KOed. Din's isn't reliable because it connects so rarely. Phantom isn't reliable either. In order to KO with it, we have to hope our opponent stupidly recovers high.

Compared to the rest of the cast, Zelda does not have "reliable" KO moves.

 

[Zylach]

I know Zelda doesn't rely on her smashes for kills. I was responding to a claim that her smashes net early kills -- which they generally do not.

My bad. Didn't notice the stuff you bolded in the other comment.

In response to the rest of your post, yes, I agree. Zelda's KO moves are not reliable but that doesn't mean she can't net early kills with them. Zelda is inherently a risky character and that risk allows us to profit with early kills but also makes us very punishable should we whiff. Yes, it can be difficult to land her KO moves, but that doesn't mean we can't. Objectively speaking, Zelda has the tools necessary to kill earlier than Weegee and most of the cast. Objectively speaking, Zelda can outspace several other characters. Objectively speaking, Zelda can be difficult to KO because she has one of the best recoveries in the game. Subjectively speaking, all of this can be difficult to execute but subectivity isn't what an objective MU thread is all about.

Her reliability is a problem and is the main thing holding her back in most MU's but that doesn't take away from what she has should she profit off of taking the right risks and using her tools intelligently. As a read-heavy character, she should be getting her KO's off of reads giving them what little reliability they have. Objectively, Dthrow-->uair should always work unless the opponent DI's in which case a fair/bair can seal the deal. Even if they airdodge, that airdodge is still exploitable because it can be read, baited, and punished.

I'll agree with you that the MU is very even and most MU's are probably not in Zelda's favor but they're not Brawl level MU's for her. She actually has hope.

 

[Gay Ginger]

My bad. Didn't notice the stuff you bolded in the other comment.

In response to the rest of your post, yes, I agree. Zelda's KO moves are not reliable but that doesn't mean she can't net early kills with them. Zelda is inherently a risky character and that risk allows us to profit with early kills but also makes us very punishable should we whiff. Yes, it can be difficult to land her KO moves, but that doesn't mean we can't. Objectively speaking, Zelda has the tools necessary to kill earlier than Weegee and most of the cast. Objectively speaking, Zelda can outspace several other characters. Objectively speaking, Zelda can be difficult to KO because she has one of the best recoveries in the game. Subjectively speaking, all of this can be difficult to execute but subectivity isn't what an objective MU thread is all about.

Her reliability is a problem and is the main thing holding her back in most MU's but that doesn't take away from what she has should she profit off of taking the right risks and using her tools intelligently. As a read-heavy character, she should be getting her KO's off of reads giving them what little reliability they have. Objectively, Dthrow-->uair should always work unless the opponent DI's in which case a fair/bair can seal the deal. Even if they airdodge, that airdodge is still exploitable because it can be read, baited, and punished.

I'll agree with you that the MU is very even and most MU's are probably not in Zelda's favor but they're not Brawl level MU's for her. She actually has hope.

I mostly agree. I just want to add that objectively, most cast members have an easier time landing their KO moves on Zelda than the other way around. So even though Zelda can technically KO her opponents at earlier percents, practically speaking that is not always the case...

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I can't see this match up in our favor. We out range him and have a better recovery, but that's pretty much it. He has vastly greater combo potential (and thus greater damage output), has better approach options, and has more reliable early kill options. I'd say it's 45:55, in Luigi's favor. Maybe it's 50:50, but that's the best I can see it being.

Fighting Luigi is very much like fighting Jigglypuff. if you keep him out you win if he gets in you lose. i feel Luigi is easier to deal with because his mobility is low so he has to catch us lagging or on a read. he can fish for kills easier than we can if Zelda is in a bad spot like up in the air. but its just hard because we really can't afford to let Luigi get in at all while he can afford to take a fsmash or two trying to get in before he has to be worried.

Since we have a couple last minute post i'm gonna leave Luigi up for today and we will begin Peach tomorrow....

 

[Zylach]

That's true. Considering practicality, even among other heavy hitters, other characters have an easier time landing KO hits. Take Palutena for instance (since Zelda and Palutena are often seen as comparable in terms of their roles). Palutena also has a difficult time landing KO moves save one, her uair, which is a multihit making it more difficult to airdodge and it has wide, disjointed hitbox unlike Zelda whose only real aerial killer disjointed hitbox is uair and the hitbox is pinpoint plus it doesn't linger at all. Even considering heavies like Bowser, D3, and Ganon. All of them have kill moves that have big hitboxes that kill around the same time, maybe a tad later than Zelda's pinpoint accurate, non-lingering KO moves. Almost all of Bowser's hitboxes are wide and disjointed. Ganon's aerials cover wide areas except for bair and maybe dair (he does have a hitbox basically up to his shoulders though). D3 has a powerful, multihit uair that is also disjointed and really big. Zelda needs to be 2x as accurate and has to have better timing with her kill moves compared to these guys but kills around the same percent.

 

[Macchiato]

Simple strategies can stop him though

 

[Macchiato]

@ JigglyZelda003 i got it stickied sis

 

[Xys]

Oh yeah didn't tell you, I'm @Salad Bowl but I forgot my password.

Btw I'm not hyrule candy just saying just saying.

Email recovery?

 

[BJN39]

Well...When it hits. LoL.

 

[Zylach]

@F-u-j-1-n The word reliable never should have been there. Good catch. Remember kids, editing is important.

 

[Xys]

Can we talk about ness?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Can we talk about ness?

we will get to Ness, i know he can be a pain. but right now we are onto

Honestly after playing this matchup a bit from both ends the Peach matchup is just as bad as it was in brawl. some of the same reasons and some new reasons. but there is a light at the end of the tunnel if you play the matchup this way.....

+=

You want to run away from Peach alot because Peachs pressure is still strong on Zelda. play hit and run and only stay in if she ends up ahead in percent or you have momentum advantage.

Pros: Faroes. its only a pro because it can kill peach early weather it be through elevator or just the second hit near a ledge. its not something we can "rely" on per say but it is something that we should keep in mind while we run away. also it makes it where we can try to harass peach offstage because we can follow her out really far and get back to the ledge. faroes can also snipe peach if you predict a retreat into turnip pull but be aware of fake outs.

Power: statistically Zelda is still stronger than Peach, the problem is our kill moves are unsafe and usually require a read to land. but good spacing can still remind peach that we hit harder than she does overall when we do land a hit.

Phantom: quick phantom is probably the best spacing tool we have against peach since even if it gets destroyed we still can toss out both a hitbox and a wall to protect us from her assault at times.

peach nerfs: you can punish dsmash on shield now as well as if she hits our shield with fair we can punish it sometimes but its still better to avoid Fair.

Cons: pressure: theres no more mindless Dair or Fair to jab antics going on but Peach still has a heavy pressure game on Zelda. her jab is still good, Fair still hurts and she can bait us into a panic action with float moves. Dair>moving around is still hard on Zelda's shield.

Peach bomber: any bad bating habits or laggy moves are going to eat a booty to the face since peach bomber now flies out really fast. even when blocked peach is still at advantage because she is safe from immediate retaliation and can float right away.

turnips: Turnips aren't as bad anymore but are still obnoxious. no more glide tossing (jc tossing is pretty good but no where near the glide toss menace from peach) or free pulling from peach and her turnips don't fly as far and her pull speed is nerfed plus we can actually reflect them sometimes but they are still a way for peach to put us in a "truth or dare" situation when one is in her hand as we also can't hit her shield or we eat a turnip to the face. not to mention Saturn breaks shields now so if he pops up we really have to be afraid.

Uair: uair can't kill us until high percents but it makes it a nightmare to land from above peach due to its disjoint and the fact that peach can fly around and shark us under platforms and on open space.

Fsmash: still not punishable on block and now no DI so frying pan really hurts and golf club still has reach.

Tilts: Peach's tilts are still good at keeping Zelda from making any kind of aerial approach antics outside of a read.

stages: unless Pilot wings is available your going to want to go to some omega stage or something flat and open. i'd also say Kongo Jungle 64 but i think its just my friends peach that really dislikes that stage in general and not that its bad for peach.

noteworthy actions: Nair its honestly an old peach tactic i use to counter Fair spam is to jump up at the other peach with Nair and smack her first. Zelda can do this too but it requires again predicting. but the bonus is if you get it its some damage that can give you the momentum back.

Utilt: i only seen this on wifi is that you can utilt peach in between trying to do two Dairs on Zelda's shield so idk if it works offline. but you can still trade with Peachs Fair with Utilt. while this isn't good anymore it does leads me to believe that you can wack her out of her Dair ahead of time before she gets to your shield.

I still feel that in the end due to Zelda's overall lack of speed, safety, and lack of reliable early kills that this matchup is still 3:7 Peach. Its like you have to make Peach believe you are actually on par with her character. its just not as depressing of a matchup as it was in the later parts of brawl where Fair>jab was unbeatable.

 

[BJN39]

Ouch, 3:7? That sounds pretty tough imo. I agree it appears that a lot of things seem to be just about the same as Brawl here, but the difference being many unfortunate 'petty nerfs' as they're called to Peach. Not that Zelda hasn't gotten similar nerfs, but I feel Zelda still works better in the scheme of things.

I mean, some of her good pressure was toned down a bit, her turnips were toned down, some of her damage was toned down, so she can KO somewhat better, and little things?

Anyways, as usual with characters who don't have crazy vertical recovery, I say if Peach EVER gives us the opportunity, go for the DAir gimp. While her vertical recovery has seen some nice buffs, it's still gimpable, and Zelda won't mind going deep offstage. (Kind of like Peach?) As for the elevator, Peach is in the bottom 10 of quickest elevator KOs judging from some data I've already accumulated, so that's neat if she ever actually manages to use a move unsafe on shield...lol

I like to point out that we can basically make it back to the ledge easy because of our recovery prowess + ledge mechanics, but from there, how well can Peach prevent us from getting back up from the ledge? I think that will be more important to know.

Something neat here is that we actually have better air speed stats, and close-ish run speeds, making our mobility nearer to even. With that in mind, that means Peach is slowish like us. We might get better milage off of Din's to AN EXTENT READ PEACHS, EXTENT. The move still stinks for most cases, but keep in mind, there are multiple changes that also HELP Din's here,

such as Peach will need to be careful when landing at all while avoiding Din's, such as airdodging to the ground, or worse auto-cancel windows. Of course in theory Peach can just clank them and make a stalemate, but I feel since Peach is not as fast as others, and her turniups don't get as much distance, it might be worth it to try and use Din's to at least get Peach to act.

I'll probably have forgot something I wanted to add, but I can just talk about it later. Also, I'm noting many good points for Zelda, but don't get me wrong, I still think Peach holds better cards here. I think I might not be AS bad as Brawl, but seeing that many things remain similar, I'll bet it's close to Brawl's generally agreed score. Atm I wanna say more like 4:6, but I admit I'm not the most experienced person on the subject, so I'm keeping an open mind to good reasoning to otherwise.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i say 3:7 mostly because i've had success only on wifi and haven't played the match offline where Peach's technicality isn't screwed over by lag. i'd like to believe the matchup is 6:4 but i feel like if Peach is playing the match just like us running around looking for opportunities I have a feeling its gonna be that bad.

the matchup feels loads better to fight now than brawl where Zelda had like no options except to run from Fair and pray/predict an opening lol.

movement speeds are about the same and Zelda's horizontal movement speed is better which is why i say you can play run away from Peach because she doesn't move that much faster...but its Peach's combat speed... its still faster than Zelda's which is still why her pressure game holds up despite it not being so free anymore.

Peachs Frying pan kills Falcon at 106% on an Omega stage. this no DI thing does sting Zelda though because in brawl if we could avoid the gimp we could still tank out Peach. now those Fairs at 120% mean bye bye stock. and Peach can Float>Fair>Float away at grounded lvl Peachs safe kill options have me worried because Zelda's are a bit harder to toss out, you have to be like 90% sure its going to land for fear of retaliation.

I think parasol can thwart Dairs. but i haven't had the opportunity to try them since the times i have fought Peach she wasn't hanging out lower than the edge the the couple Zelda's i have played missed spikes or couldn't catch me.

Dins is still more of a petty harassment tool because Nair still neutralizes Dins. its also why i didn't mention Dins because i feel Dins use is up to the Zelda players discretion. you can still annoy Peach with Dins even if she neutralizes it because Zelda is still safe if Peach is without a turnip or within peach bomber range.

Peach can also Float near the edge and Bair, Dair, Nair Zelda on reappearance for an attempted stage spike which Zelda can survive if she's under 120% on like battlefield because i have survived it but its still a tad scary. even if she whiffs on the reappear open frame Peach is still not in a bad position.

 

[Macchiato]

I say 6:4 from the reasons stated above

 

[Gay Ginger]

I'm gonna agree with JigglyZelda that this match is 3:7.

Even though Peach has received some nerfs to her pressure game, her KO power has been buffed. In Brawl, Zelda's only real advantage over Peach was that we could kill her much earlier than she could kill us. Now we don't even have that. Technically we can KO earlier with a LK or the Elevator (assuming they don't DI), but these can be difficult to land and they are unsafe. Peach can KO us early enough with fair, fsmash, or usmash. Fair and fsmash are generally pretty safe so once we're at KO percent, Peach can start fishing for kills much easier than we can.

On top of that, Peach's pressure game on us is still incredibly strong with her aerials, and turnips and floating give her great approach options against us. Her buffs to KO power outweigh her nerfs, in my opinion.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

I'm gonna agree with JigglyZelda that this match is 3:7.

Even though Peach has received some nerfs to her pressure game, her KO power has been buffed.

Honestly I'm not feeling these KO buffs everyone's talking about for Peach. to me she still can't kill and its just people can't DI anymore that support earlier deaths from Peach, Usmash Ribbon is like the only KO buff i feel she has lol

Which reminds me i forgot to mention Peach Dash Attack. if she's finally had it with Zelda can kill on the second hit at like 150% which is like the safest kill option ever.

 

[Gay Ginger]

Honestly I'm not feeling these KO buffs everyone's talking about for Peach. to me she still can't kill and its just people can't DI anymore that support earlier deaths from Peach, Usmash Ribbon is like the only KO buff i feel she has lol

Which reminds me i forgot to mention Peach Dash Attack. if she's finally had it with Zelda can kill on the second hit at like 150% which is like the safest kill option ever.

Regardless if her moves were powered up or just KO earlier because DI is less effective, her moves now KO earlier than they did in Brawl.

Which is frustrating because Zelda should have been one of the characters to benefit from the reduction in DI the most. But her moves are still somehow unreliable and her knockback has been nerfed. Can't catch a break lol

 

[Zylach]

A lot of my issues with this MU have already been stated. Peach's pressure game isn't what it used to be but it's still not fun to face as a Zelda. I have a lot of trouble punishing any of Peach's attacks. Almost all of her aerials can be followed up with a jab without pause and her turnips won't allow Zelda to get to her ideal range (tip of fsmash/ftilt range). Peach can throw out killing moves whenever she pleases against Zelda which is something we can't do in return. Peach is essentially a wall of hitboxes that Zelda can't deal with at all. I agree 3:7 in Peach's favor obviously, maybe 35:65 to be as specific as possible.

My biggest problem is killing Peach. She can do whatever she wants in the air so landing a Lkick or uair is tricky at best. Gimping her offstage is really difficult for the same reason AND that parasol is deadly. Mistime a dair at all and that parasol will be thrust straight up *censored*.

The only thing I can think of that could give Zelda any kind of advantage here is phantom. Quick phantom can eat a turnip and has good range. The biggest problem is the endlag on it which Peach can and will punish. Not a fun MU at all.

 

[BJN39]

Tiny thing about Phantom; something I've noticed is that a character has to have a pretty fast movement speed to actually maneuver THROUGH Phantom, and Peach does not have anything that would work like that, so she'd have to actually jump mostly over Phantom to get through easily. On the bright side

 

[Meru.]

Honestly I'm not feeling these KO buffs everyone's talking about for Peach. to me she still can't kill and its just people can't DI anymore that support earlier deaths from Peach, Usmash Ribbon is like the only KO buff i feel she has lol

Which reminds me i forgot to mention Peach Dash Attack. if she's finally had it with Zelda can kill on the second hit at like 150% which is like the safest kill option ever.

wat

First of all DI is very weak in this game. Second, Peach is actually a good killer in this game. Fair can kill really early without any rage, but with rage it just kills at LOL percentages. Same for Fsmash and Usmash sweetspt although they're a bit tricky to land. If she somehow doesn't manage to ladn those moves, she can still a little bit later with Nair, Bair, sourspot Usmash, Dash Attack (which is pretty unsafe btw) Bthrow, Dtilt > UpB... Peach has gone from one of the worst killers in Brawl to a pretty good killer Smash 4. If that's not an improvement then I don't know what is.

What sometimes makes Peach look like she has problems killing, is when Peach players get impatient and really try to fish for a Fair kill. It becomes telegraphed and extremely predictable, even though it's not even needed since she has a billion killing options. That's just what impatience does I guess. Maybe a good this to note vs Peach, kill her first, watch the player get impatient, abuse it. Unfortunately it won't work if the Peach player plays well and patient, but a bunch of players don't since it's so easy to get impatient.

Anyway maining Peach and seconding Zelda I just find this match-up ****. Aggressive Peaches are really hard since Peach is too fast and Zelda can't punish anything. Having no Usmash anymore REALLY hurts, pretty much the only options against now are a Nair with no reward and kicks and praying it sweetspot... if Peach gives you time to do anything. Fish for as many UpB as you can, since it will stop Peaches from pressuring you till no end since they have to show respect you a bit more. UpB is what saves Zelda in this match-up in order to stop Peach from going all berserk on you.

Other than UpB I can't really think of much Zelda can do tbh. I have played the match-up on both sides (admittedly not against top players or something but Peach and Zelda players are already rare) and each time the Peach player would just go "yolo float aerial pressure" and except for a few Fsmashes, Dash Attacks and Nairs there is very little Zelda can outspace Peach with. Your best bet is punishing her jumps, landing and some unsafe aerials (they are not always as safe they are), and stop her float approach is best as possible with Nairs, kicks and smashes, or just by walking away and letting her get impatient and chase you.

I can agree with 3:7.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

usmash in brawl just keep peach from yolo float dair due to its range but in the later ends of brawl Zelda usmash bait was like asking peach to hit you.

 

[jsmoe]

I agree with the 3:7

The pressure has been toned down but trying to find a reliable source for damage to kill is not a happy time. It just ends up being a weird half spacie thing until someone makes a move, and with peach's options its more likely to be her.

 

[evmaxy54]

I'd rather play Ganon in this MU than Zelda. Still a bad MU, but at least he can actually hit Peach hard with Uair &/or a well spaced Nair instead of the luckiest of all sweetspotted LKs.

 

[BJN39]

Hey @ Nairo you've fought good Petch material, do you have anything to add about the MU?

 

[Nairo]

zelda beats peach 6-4 d00d lolol I havent fought peach since skys invitational (slays peach) so I can't say much AT THE MOMENT. I'm in california right now so slay may go to final battle so I might play him there.

 

[Macchiato]

zelda beats peach 6-4 d00d lolol I havent fought peach since skys invitational (slays peach) so I can't say much AT THE MOMENT. I'm in california right now so slay may go to final battle so I might play him there.

Ok so I played dark pchs peach and I think it's 5-5 now. It really isn't that hard, you can Nair or utilt between dairs and zelda kills earlier.

 

[BJN39]

Ok so I played dark pchs peach and I think it's 5-5 now. It really isn't that hard, you can Nair or utilt between dairs and zelda kills earlier.

tbh from that I'm curious as to what Dark Pch thinks the MU is...

Out of curiosity, how many matches were there of Peach v Zelda, how many did you win, and how close were the battle(s)?

 

[Macchiato]

tbh from that I'm curious as to what Dark Pch thinks the MU is...

Out of curiosity, how many matches were there of Peach v Zelda, how many did you win, and how close were the battle(s)?

I won 2 and he won 3. They were all close. I like dark.pch as a smasher but remember last MU thread. He just pointed out every thing that zelda can't do and they were all the same things. I've learned that dins are really useful in the MU

 

[Mocha]

zelda beats peach 6-4 d00d lolol I havent fought peach since skys invitational (slays peach) so I can't say much AT THE MOMENT. I'm in california right now so slay may go to final battle so I might play him there.

If you play Slay's Peach, I wanna hear all about it lol. Save replays!

 

[BJN39]

Seems like talk sort of just dropped off here. We couldn't have talked of everything...?

I'mma do it.

@ Dark.Pch I'd like to hear your opinion on the Peach v Zelda MU. IMO you can voice your opinions well, covering lots of options, and thoroughly.

I hope we all will play nice this time (If Dark.Pch actually does want to share his opinion.) if not, I'm watching.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dark Pch was one of the only pure Peach's that showed up the last time we tried discussing this matchup though and we are only looking for a bit more input that we might have missed. besides we are doing numbers roughly off consensus

 

[Dark.Pch]

Ok so I played dark pchs peach and I think it's 5-5 now. It really isn't that hard, you can Nair or utilt between dairs and zelda kills earlier.

I have never played you at all. You have me confused with someone else maybe using my color. But I have never played you.

Seems like talk sort of just dropped off here. We couldn't have talked of everything...?

I'mma do it.

@ Dark.Pch I'd like to hear your opinion on the Peach v Zelda MU. IMO you can voice your opinions well, covering lots of options, and thoroughly.

I hope we all will play nice this time (If Dark.Pch actually does want to share his opinion.) if not, I'm watching.

I knew about this topic when I was asked to come here at first put I did not wanna get involed in it cause last time people started to act childish. And I am not up for going through such a thing. So decided to let other Peach players handle this. But if it needs to be done, I'll just make a right up some time in the afternoon and then leave.

 

[Macchiato]

I have never played you at all. You have me confused with someone else maybe using my color. But I have never played you.

No I have, it was on my old wii u and account. @Salad Bowl was my old account.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Oh boy, is *this* a fun matchup. /sarcasm

Pros: * Peach often stays in the same vertical plane, either due to staying grounded or floating, which CAN present opportunities to land a lightning kick.

* Phantom Slash makes approaching and stopping approaches mildly (very mildly) more possible than the pipe dream it was in Brawl.

Cons: * Peach can exploit Zelda’s blindspots. Hard. If she manages to find a way in, all she has to do is float above FSmash range and use repeated Dairs and Fairs coupled with appropriate movement. Done properly, it’s almost impossible to punish. Eventually, you’re going to come close to running out of shield and will have to resort to other forms of defense which aren’t safe. Fair > Zelda.

* Turnips are still irritating as hell. Phantom will at least block them (and unless it’s a powerful one, it won’t break), but if Peach has a turnip in her hand, and a life lead, and is outside of effective Phantom range, it forces Zelda to approach. And even if the phantom DOES block them… it will bounce off and she can pick it up again (unless the slash itself connects). Nayru’s is borderline useless against them. Oh yeah, and floated aerials whilst holding a turnip further improve Peach’s already solid pressure as mentioned above. Turnips will ruin your day.

* Peach’s kill moves may have slightly less kill power than Zelda’s… but she more than makes up for that by virtue of them being much easier to land. USmash has power almost as great as Zelda’s lightning kick if sweetspotted (seriously…) and is still pretty strong even if the weaker hit connects. FSmash, especially the tennis racket, has strong knockback. Fair is super strong, and even when staled has decent killing power. She has other kill moves too, like Nair, Bair, DTilt -> Parasol etc. Peach’s old weakness of being terrible at killing is LONG gone.

* Peach has an easier time edgeguarding Zelda than vice versa. She can afford to go deep in her recovery and try to hit you with a Nair or Fair. Alternatively, she can wait by the ledge and try to hit you during your vulnerable frames. Meanwhile, attempting to Dair Peach is risky, because her Uair will outspeed and outrange it, and her Parasol outspeeds it and will slice through Zelda’s Dair like butter.

* Even Peach’s ground game is better than ours. DTilt has comparable range and speed to our FTilt… except that it doesn’t have the blindspot that Zelda’s does, and the reward on hit is much better. Peach Bomber is safe on shield now and sets up her air game, and her FSmash is no joke either.

Key Moves: * Lightning Kicks (but not Dair): Peach tends to spend a lot of time on the same vertical plane, be that via staying grounded or by floating. This means there’s more opportunity for her to make a mistake which can let you land a lightning kick – knowing when she’s going to release float, when she’s going to retreat, when she’s going to approach etc. is vital to finding these opportunities. It’s still not /easy/, of course, but Peach is light, so if you can land it, you’re golden.

* Nair: This is a move you’ll be using out of necessity more so than choice. In an air-to-air situation, it is more or less the only move that has any chance of standing up against Peach’s aerials. This is best used in spacings where Nair and Bair can’t quite reach, and where Dair and Fair are too slow (and Uair shouldn’t be applicable unless you’re above her… in which case that’s a whole other horrid situation). In an aerial situation where Peach is nearby, Nair or air dodging to get away are generally the only two decent options available to you.

* Phantom Slash: Zelda’s new move is actually surprisingly useful against Peach, especially the overhead slash. The uncharged grounded slash will mess up poorly spaced floating, and the overhead grounded slash can interrupt even well-spaced floats. Mid-air slashes, provided Peach isn’t too nearby, can be a decent option as well. And as previously mentioned, they can block turnips and make those slightly less annoying to deal with, or possibly remove them altogether if the hitbox connects with them.

Stages: Avoid. Platforms. This seriously can’t be emphasised enough – Peach’s prowess increases significantly when platforms are introduced. ESPECIALLY avoid Battlefield, where her USmash (let me re-emphasise that it has as much kill power as our lightning kicks do) becomes considerably easier to land. FD or some other omega stage for sure.

Score: 35:65 if you can net an omega-style stage, 30:70 everywhere else…

 

[BJN39]

I knew about this topic when I was asked to come here at first put I did not wanna get involed in it cause last time people started to act childish. And I am not up for going through such a thing. So decided to let other Peach players handle this. But if it needs to be done, I'll just make a right up some time in the afternoon and then leave.

Thanks for responding. I respect your decision to not get involved here. If you decide to make a write up, cool. But don't feel the need to on account of us or anything.

~

In other news, this particular MU has gotten a lot of scores fast. I think it already has the most scores given:

JigglyZelda003 - 3:7
BJN39 - 4:6
Macchiato - 5:5
GingerGaymer - 3:7
Zylach - 35:65
Yaaay - 3:7
jsmoe - 3:7
mountian_tiger - 35:65 - 3:7 (Stage specified)

When calculated, the scores so far actually end up pretty close right in between 3:7 and 35:65. (Actual calculation was 3.36:6.64) So I guess atm it rounds slightly closer to 35:65.

 

[Dark.Pch]

No I have, it was on my old wii u and account. @Salad Bowl was my old account.

Ok, I remember you. I just wanna point out some things based on a few post you made dealing with me.

You say some of the things I said before don't work. And make it seem like it is some problem of me being bias. Dins fire is not your-to-go tool vs me. I can easily ground Float Nair it and approach with it. The only time you would really land that a lot is if the player I just attacking or rushing in all the time. Or doing something laggy. Like a Turnip pull. I rarely have to block that move unless I am already doing something atm. Cause Grounded nairs is the best option to shut that move down.

The next thing you might say is that you was catching me with it off stage and the typical Up-B use Zeldas love to just throw out now as a gimmick. The matches we had had more imput delay then it should have. Meaning if I do something, it won't come out to nearly a sec later. That's why in some cases I was falling and you throw out dins fires and I seriously did not move and took the hit. I can easily Nair it which is what I was going for. I play based on player habits and reaction. Each time I went near you, you always side step and rolled to attacks ALOT. I would just bait these reactions out of you and punish you for it. When I failed to get the punish or screwed up due to execution, you just throw out moves and got the hit. This told you in your brain that this is actually legit and just keep doing it. No matter how many times I would bait these reactions out of you and punish you for it. You was just hoping for the best. Throw out moves and just hoped it worked. Hoping I goof and panic to an evasion or an attack. I told you this when you asked me for advice after the games. I baited up-B out of shield from you a lot and you still tries to get off no matter how many times I punished you for it. Just hope for the few times you actually get it. And cause of these, it lead to you thinking that the match up is even. It's not.

Even with the matches we had and me winning most of them, I am not gonna judge how this match up goes based on that. That's not how I do or judge things. What I am gonna based this on is player a high level player with Zelda. Cause that is important. More so the average level player. (though if you can't handle the typical play of said characters, you wont even make it to high level play of said character).

I just wanted to get this about the way to clear things up. Just hope I don't come off as a jerk or typical image people seem to have of me. Now with that out the way.

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I have to be a lil more careful with my ground approaches due to the Phantom. This just slows me down al il. Which makes things a lil better for you. But its really not that big of a deal. Cause if I don't try to commit to hard on approaches or don't challenge it, It just goes back to neutral position. This can be used in the air as well to also make me think more carefully on going for typical air approaches. If Zelda Mixups up both air and grounded phantoms. I have to think when and how to get in on you more than usual unlike brawl.

Outside of this lil tool, I don't see much to fear because:

- Zeldas approaches methods are weak and not really that safe. Very limited.
- While she has phantom to slow me down, its still a struggle to get in on a sold spacing Peach
- You have no answer to punish SPACED shield pressure. (Trying to get an up-B off me Or Naryu's love will get you killed)
- Not much of a threat edgeguarding me. Dins fair does nothing. Phantom can help a lil if you are smart with it.

Your goal here is to slow me down so you can get in my blind spot, where I can't do ****. Your moves here has more range and are faster then mines. So if I try to push a button out of shield I will get hit for it. Peach blind spot is standing out of her Nair/Jab range.

You have Phantom for this. And if your are smart with it, Dins fire and up-B. You cannot rush a smart Peach down. Your approaches are weak and The player can easily react/punish you for it. You seriously have to wait. Spacing Peach is also a hard one for you really cant be safe with your air moves. Short hop fair is laggy and Nair does not have that much range. You can use this move if you see the player getting too air happy with the typical dairs. It's a good move to punish her air moves and tell here to stay on the ground more.

But her ground game is also a problem and better then yours. Here is what it looks like so you can be aware of it.

And here is her neutral game here so you know how she moves, space, etc.

And lastly, ways she can approach someone so you can be aware of this and figure out how to respond to it.

I would give this match up 60:40 Peach I'm not going higher then this because of how I have to pay attention to her Phantom and the use of people throwing out up-B. Even If I bait the up- and Punish. can' really go in and extend my pressure for people might panic to the move or just throw it out thinking they can hit as an approach or out of shield option. If they don't then they can use this moment to get close to me (cover that blind spot)or get away from danger.

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