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Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

Meru.

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For future reference, Nairo says Zelda beats:

Peach
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

No... Just no. I have just discovered this match-up is way more awful than I had thought. Peach's Fair and Dair outranges a lot of Zelda's moves, Peach pressures her till no tomorrow once she's inside, turnips are a pain and she actually seems to kill Zelda earier than she kills her. This match-up is seriously bad for Zelda, and possibly one of her worse.

Also having an incredibly hard time imagining Wario, Toon Link and ZSS not beating Zelda. Most of those match-up she supposedly beats are probably just even.
 
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Nairo

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I did a quick run through the first 2 rows in the CSS(because I was streaming so I couldnt take my time) but the MUs that aleate posted I said I havent done much fights vs pit,peach,GNW,ike, and wario as zelda so those I'm not 100% on. ZSS wins but not that much (depending on how much you know ZSS and what they want at certain %s) but I USUALLY have no trouble with zelda vs the others listed. Yea I said lucina not marth but might as well include him too because they are practically the same. I may be wrong in some of these MUs but maybe because I'm confident with zelda vs these characters I just do well with em. (ALSO I SAID SHE DOES GOOD VS THE CHARACTERS AS IN BARELY LOSES/EVEN/SLIGHTLY WINS VS THEM). And I know I didnt explain my reasoning on each character I'm about to sleep for a tourney in like 4 hours so I'll try to explain when I get back if I remember to lol.

@ M Meru. Look at this post what I said was kinda worded ina different way! (As for peach though im probably wrong but when I fought slays peach it didnt feel as bad as you say but havent played em ina while so maybe its different now! NOBODYS 100% RIGHT)
 
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mountain_tiger

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Yay! It now says Luigi! :4luigi:
I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you say regarding this match-up, so I'm just gonna add bits here and there to what you've already said, rather than doing a full-blown analysis again.

Range! Similar to Mario, we can outrange him in multiple moves, Ftilt, Jab, Fsmash, and even the front side of Dsmash and our Grab outrange some or most of his ground moves.
Yep. Much like the Mario matchup, we have more range than Luigi does, and that's something important to take advantage of. One particularly critical aspect is Luigi's incredibly low traction, which makes him much easier to keep out than Mario. A single FTilt, against his shield, will send him a strong distance away - FSmash will send him even further. This makes keeping him out comparatively easy.


We can kill him on the earlier side of the spectrum with FW Elevator, so Luigi will need to be very careful about on shield safety at around 80% and up (Or as low as 60% If you can manage to stay alive until around 100% and get good rage boosts.) as to not accidentally let himself get taken to the top floor. All of our other high KB moves will also appreciate Luigi's lighter weight as an aid to KOing earlier.
Luigi isn't particularly light. That said, killing with FW is slightly more feasible in this MU due to his terrible air speed + poor range making it harder for his attacks to be safe on shield.

Luigi has low-ish mobility. We acually have better air speeds than he does, and his run speed is only average. We can use this to try and shorten possible juggle attempts. Also, his fireball doesn't pose the same threat that Mario's does. We can atually use FW to reflect it if we want without getting annihilated.
Reflecting his fireballs still isn't recommended tbh - it's too easy to get baited and punished heavily. And they can still make approaching a real pain if he gets a life lead...


Luigi may be one of the MUs where Din's actually has some utility. As mentioned already, Din's can be somewhat useful against a recovering Luigi. Din's cancells out Luigi missile as a bonus. :p Phantom also appears to be more useable for edgeguards and for fireball blocking. Still though, use these two sparingly, they're still the unfortunate moves we know and hate love.
Phantom Slash is actually more useful here than it is in almost any other MU, because as long as you don't get interrupted before the phantom itself appears, it's a win-win situation.

If he gets hit, then... well, he gets hit. Lol. If he shields it, unless it's a powershield, it will push him back a fair bit, keeping him out. Hell, even if he's in the 'blindspot', he gets pushed back. You can use this to protect you either on the ground or in mid-air, and his poor mobility in either area will mean he has to respect it. Oh yeah, and unlike Mario he can't reflect it. Awesome.


Do NAWT, get grabbed. Luigi has some of the most impressive easy damage grab combos. Getting grabbed at almost any percent can lead into a followup. An easy 30% is lost off of an early grab. Don't let him have that advantage if you can. Luckily for Zelda, his grab as mentioned by busken, is rather short ranged. You'll want to try and challenge it with either Dtilt or Dsmash (Her fastest ground options.) and break the grab as he grabs you. You'll only suffer 3% instead of 30% if you can.
Pretty much - DSmash is a lot safer than normal here, again, because his traction is so low.


While his aerials do not have lots of range to show off (Somewhat like Zelda's.) NAir packs impressive combo breaking abilities, and the rest of his aerials contain useable properties such as KO power or good frame data. I recommend not trying to go against him in the open air.

Luigi can kill, and we are light. Simply put we need to be careful of whiffing FW elevators and using slug moves at higher percents, since a good Luigi will not slack on the use of his amazing aerly KO moves like Fsmash, and even Dragon Punch if he can get the chance. Also For the most part, Luigi's attacks are faster than ours, and thus, safer than ours in neutral or well spaced on a shield.
Yep. If Luigi can get in, he doesn't have much difficulty landing a KO move from there.

Key Moves :
DAir : Luigi's recovery is quite linear, so pinpointing him won't be as hard as other characters. In some cases, you can even gimp him with a sourspot. Also, trading with his sourspot up B is like being hit with a kick sourspot...LOL.

Farore's Wind (Elevator) : As I always say, it's key for every MU. It is our earliest KO option, and is great for OoS punishes (It's only frame 7!) as always be careful though, keep as quick as you can to note if Luigi DIs away and react accordingly by grounding it as to not be hit by one of his deadly moves for whiffing.

Rangy Moves : Ftilt, Jab, and Fsmash are all great at outranging Luigi, even if Fsmash doesn't connect all the time (Or at all LOL)
I agree on Dair and ranged moves (though Jab isn't as critical) - exploiting Luigi's recovery is fairly easy if Tornado alone won't return him to the stage. Farore's Wind isn't really significantly more key here than it is anywhere else.

DTilt is vital because, like with Mario, it's our only close-range move that comes close to competing with his moves frame-wise. And as I mentioned above, Phantom Slash is pretty pivotal in this match.

I can't comment on this atm, I'm not sure whether or not we can use platforms better.
Bigger is better - the less space there is, the less distance Luigi has to cover to get to you! Platforms can help in terms of impeding his approach... but IMO, it's not worth it because it lets him wreck so much harder if he gets in.

I'm not sure exactly... Perhaps I'll give a more definite score later. If it were really slightly better than it was in Brawl, it would range roughly between 50:50 and 55:45 (Our favor) I think it is on of those, I'm just not sure if she actually could have a slight advantage over someone. It's a hard thing for a Zelda to accept...LOL.
50:50 - it's not in Zelda's favour simply because she gets beaten far too hard at close range; a single mistake can be deadly.

Basically, Zelda needs to keep Luigi out, and thankfully she has the tools to do that... but his combo ability + killing prowess, and how difficult the match can become if he no longer has to approach us, it's no better than even.
 
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BJN39

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I actually agree with a lot of the stuff you say regarding this match-up, so I'm just gonna add bits here and there to what you've already said, rather than doing a full-blown analysis again.



Yep. Much like the Mario matchup, we have more range than Luigi does, and that's something important to take advantage of. One particularly critical aspect is Luigi's incredibly low traction, which makes him much easier to keep out than Mario. A single FTilt, against his shield, will send him a strong distance away - FSmash will send him even further. This makes keeping him out comparatively easy.




Luigi isn't particularly light. That said, killing with FW is slightly more feasible in this MU due to his terrible air speed + poor range making it harder for his attacks to be safe on shield.



Reflecting his fireballs still isn't recommended tbh - it's too easy to get baited and punished heavily. And they can still make approaching a real pain if he gets a life lead...




Phantom Slash is actually more useful here than it is in almost any other MU, because as long as you don't get interrupted before the phantom itself appears, it's a win-win situation.

If he gets hit, then... well, he gets hit. Lol. If he shields it, unless it's a powershield, it will push him back a fair bit, keeping him out. Hell, even if he's in the 'blindspot', he gets pushed back. You can use this to protect you either on the ground or in mid-air, and his poor mobility in either area will mean he has to respect it. Oh yeah, and unlike Mario he can't reflect it. Awesome.




Pretty much - DSmash is a lot safer than normal here, again, because his traction is so low.




Yep. If Luigi can get in, he doesn't have much difficulty landing a KO move from there.



I agree on Dair and ranged moves (though Jab isn't as critical) - exploiting Luigi's recovery is fairly easy if Tornado alone won't return him to the stage. Farore's Wind isn't really significantly more key here than it is anywhere else.

DTilt is vital because, like with Mario, it's our only close-range move that comes close to competing with his moves frame-wise. And as I mentioned above, Phantom Slash is pretty pivotal in this match.



Bigger is better - the less space there is, the less distance Luigi has to cover to get to you! Platforms can help in terms of impeding his approach... but IMO, it's not worth it because it lets him wreck so much harder if he gets in.



50:50 - it's not in Zelda's favour simply because she gets beaten far too hard at close range; a single mistake can be deadly.

Basically, Zelda needs to keep Luigi out, and thankfully she has the tools to do that... but his combo ability + killing prowess, and how difficult the match can become if he no longer has to approach us, it's no better than even.
Really well said stuff!

I wasn't sure on whether Luigi's low traction still made moves safer on his shield since it seems like general shield pushback is smaller, so I didn't add that. But if it still works like that that's neat!

And yeah, I didn't actually mean to say you should use Nayru's that often for fireballs. My b if I implied that. I just meant that it doesn't seem as bad to use occasionally vs Luigi's fireballs as it does vs Mario's fireballs. ^^'
 
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TriTails

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Do everyone in here shield so much? Sometimes I forgot it exist when comboing lol.

Anyway, Luigi slides so far when shielding, but this can actually mean follow-ups are almost impossible against Luigi's shield, making it very tough to break.

Luigi actually has great mobility with Cyclone, as punishable as it may be. It's much faster than one think. He can ram to you on the ground with this and surprise the heck outta you. However, Cyclone doesn't increase his air speed, so he is still a slowpoke there.

His Fireballs are much more spammable than Mario's IMO. He has lower end lag, and they actually float. Reflecting them can result in you get Cyclone'd on the face. Remember, while on the ground, Luigi Cyclone stops when it clash. However, while in the air, Luigi Cyclone out-prioritize weak to weak-med projectiles, such as his own Fireballs. Make sure you don't get baited with NL!

For Phantom Slash...... I Green Missile'd it and it broke lol. This makes Zelda cannot summon another for a while, disabling one of her defensive options. Although, both moves need charging, so it is situational. But generally, Luigi cannot handle this move very well.

He has amazing grab game, but as stated earlier, his grab range is short. Don't go taking this that he is nothing without grabs though. If you get predictable on challenging his grab with D-smash, expect a surprise Luigi Cyclone or er... dash attack when you are done. Maybe a quick Green Missile. His damage output is greater than Mario, so he has little problems on racking up damage without his throws, but generally you want to stay away from his grab, it racks up damage much faster AND can be used as killing setups. Just don't get grabbed, just don't.

Outrange Luigi if you can. Space your moves carefully so he cannot punish them. He has amazing punish game also, and that comes from his grabs and FJP, and apparently the punishes are crazy strong.

Remember, Luigis will usually recover like this:
Green Missile -> Jumped Cyclone -> SJP = Gimp him from above! With downward attacking moves. Phantom Slash his Green Missile if you can (Although, if you miss, the Phantom will most likely break).

Or....

Jumped Cyclone -> Green Missile/Maybe some airdodges -> SJP = Gimp him from the side! If you gimp his Luigi Cyclone, he is done for. That is, as long as you don't send him upwards. But generally, gimp his Luigi Cyclone to properly gimp him.

His moves are super fast! Especially his aerials. N-air comes out at frame freaking 3 if I'm not wrong. His laggy moves are probably Green Missile, D-air.... and that's it? Does Zelda has fast attacks? Because as you can see, Luigi's attacks are lighting fast here.

Stages.... dunno. I don't have a Wii U, and 3DS version isn't really fit for competitive plays. So.... yeah...

Ratios..... Still dunno. But generally, Luigi destroys her in close combat, but his poor mobility along with some of his unsafe moves may can be taken advantage of.
 

Meru.

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I did a quick run through the first 2 rows in the CSS(because I was streaming so I couldnt take my time) but the MUs that aleate posted I said I havent done much fights vs pit,peach,GNW,ike, and wario as zelda so those I'm not 100% on. ZSS wins but not that much (depending on how much you know ZSS and what they want at certain %s) but I USUALLY have no trouble with zelda vs the others listed. Yea I said lucina not marth but might as well include him too because they are practically the same. I may be wrong in some of these MUs but maybe because I'm confident with zelda vs these characters I just do well with em. (ALSO I SAID SHE DOES GOOD VS THE CHARACTERS AS IN BARELY LOSES/EVEN/SLIGHTLY WINS VS THEM). And I know I didnt explain my reasoning on each character I'm about to sleep for a tourney in like 4 hours so I'll try to explain when I get back if I remember to lol.

@ M Meru. Look at this post what I said was kinda worded ina different way! (As for peach though im probably wrong but when I fought slays peach it didnt feel as bad as you say but havent played em ina while so maybe its different now! NOBODYS 100% RIGHT)
lol ok, not doubting you or something cause your Zelda is miiiiiles ahead of mine, but some things just sounded a bit weird to me and I see why now. :p
 

Zylach

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The Luigi matchup is definitely better than the Mario matchup and, while I do lose more often to Weegees, it's because I don't know the matchup very well and tend to shield more often than is healthy for me against such a grabby character.That said, I stated earlier that the Mario MU was 55:45 in Mario's favor (Or was it 60:40?) and I feel like Zelda does have an easier time keeping Weegee out compared to Mario which is exactly what she needs in order to be successful. I'd agree that this MU is probably 55:45 in Zelda's favor believe it or not especially because using phantom offstage in particular is a good way to shut Luigi down as he's recovering, something we can't do against Mario as easily.

The main problem Zelda has here is getting him off the stage in the first place. As a character based around reading opponents and punishing them, Weegee's arsenal is her worst enemy as quick as it is. My favorite move, and possibly favorite move overall, to keep Weegee from approaching us is Fsmash. It's range is deceptively long and pulls the opponent in with more efficacy when the opponent is at its max range I've found (for most characters. Exceptions include Zss and the puffballs) so the risk of him falling out isn't too bad meaning we can usually expect to get our max damage out of it even when we're using it at its max range provided the starting frames aren't shielded. Weegees approaching from the air are more easily handled than a lot of the cast because Weegee doesn't have amazing range on his aerials meaning our utilt can be effective at interrupting aerial approaches. Usually, the worst case scenario is a trade which, at 7% for our utilt, should generally be a favorable trade (I don't know Weegee's damage data).

I think the scariest weapon Weegee has against us is his tornado which I still can't get used to. We have no choice but to shield it because it clashes with all of our moves and he's faster than us when he's up close enough to clash. With proper shielding, the move becomes nearly harmless unless he gets himself off the stage, thereby effectively cancelling the endlag.

After that somewhat long tangent, The summarized version is as follows: 55:45 in Zelda's favor. Her ability to kill early be it with elevator or her power to gimp his recovery is what makes this MU lean slightly in Zelda's favor. Weegee can kill her as well and he's very good at it but not as early and with Zelda's ability to keep him out more effectively than a lot of the cast, he shouldn't be able to rack up the damage either, at least, not as safely as he would on shorter range characters (Like WFT maybe?). Sorry if this post seemed a little disjointed. It's almost 5am here and I can't sleep because insomnia.
 

TriTails

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Er..... Actually, Phantom doesn't work very well at gimping Luigi, unless he lost his double jump. He prefers to recover from very low of the stage with Luigi Cyclone, and that can be done easily by him due to his amazing vertical recovery, and even if you launched him when he is doing his Green Missile, he will come back. Phantom travels in a straight horizontal line, which is rather.... ineffective considering on how Luigi prefers to recovery below the ledge. His SJP has invincibility frames when he is rising, and he can snap to the ledge easily with it.

I recommend shielding when he tries to approach from above. Thing is, Cyclone has great priority (But I'm not sure if it will cancel out Zelda's U-tilt or not), but is extremely punishable on shield. His aerials are quite rangey for him though (Relatively short fighter fighting with his bare hands) and is spammable so much that 3 aerials can come out outta one full hop.

How does air vs ground move priority work anyway? Here is Luigi's aerials damage.....

N-air: Sex kick, 12% and 6% late
F-air: 9%
B-air: 14% sweetspot, 8% sourspot
U-air: 11% sweetspot, 7% sourspot
D-air: 8% normal, 10% meteor

Yeah, more damaging than Mario if I recall right.

Wow, I guess people likes to call Cyclone just 'Tornado'. Well, since Luigi Cyclone IS based of Mario Tornado, so I guess it's not a wierd thing.

Oh, and also, random Green Missile misfire kills at 50%, that is pretty early, but it's random, so ignore it if you want (Not a thing to ignore for us Luigi players though).

He can rack up damage without grabs though. Dat U-smash combo is one of the example. 2 of them are worth 24-28%! Plus, he is unpredictable. He can easily swap dash grab with either Cyclone or Green Missile, or even, dash attack! His damage output are stronger than Mario, and his combo ability just makes it worse for Zelda. In short, don't get grabbed, but don't let him approach too! He can rack up damage easier than you think.

And how does Zelda keep her opponents out? Sorry, I don't play Zelda. But I honestly cannot give a ratio yet.

And my eyes are twitching here... sorry if this post seem a bit..... untidy.
 

BJN39

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Just addressing a couple things:
Er..... Actually, Phantom doesn't work very well at gimping Luigi, unless he lost his double jump. He prefers to recover from very low of the stage with Luigi Cyclone, and that can be done easily by him due to his amazing vertical recovery, and even if you launched him when he is doing his Green Missile, he will come back. Phantom travels in a straight horizontal line, which is rather.... ineffective considering on how Luigi prefers to recovery below the ledge. His SJP has invincibility frames when he is rising, and he can snap to the ledge easily with it.
Of course a Zelda might also try to nab you with a DAir, its sweetspot is easy enough to land now, and can be fatal even at low percent. Even the sour-spot can be dangerous at higher percent.
Another (more risky) theoretical option is for Zelda to attempt to FF NAir Luigi, (Possibly after he uses cyclone or his 2nd jump.) dragging him very low. Zelda won't have to worry about making it back to the ledge, so she can risk going deep for the edge guard or gimp.

Basically, just don't underestimate her ability to ledge guard Luigi. Phantom is just a decent horizontal option for a ledge guard. (And the occasionally Din's Fire can even cut your missile short.)

If you are going from below, a Zelda will likely instead opt for the DAir. While your Up B has some invincibility, Zelda's DAir has a long hit duration and is pretty good at managing to trade at least.

Also, if you run out of ledge invincibility, there's nothing stopping Zelda from using her Dtilt at the edge, as it can reach below the stage.

I recommend shielding when he tries to approach from above. Thing is, Cyclone has great priority (But I'm not sure if it will cancel out Zelda's U-tilt or not), but is extremely punishable on shield. His aerials are quite rangey for him though (Relatively short fighter fighting with his bare hands) and is spammable so much that 3 aerials can come out outta one full hop.

How does air vs ground move priority work anyway?
Well, Ground vs air moves cannot clank in 99% of cases, (See Brawl MK dash attack as one instance where it can.) but instead will most often trade. (Unless one move has far more range, then that will likely hit if well spaced.)

In this case, Zeda's up tilt has transcending priority. While up tilt's range is okay (And I kind of think you're overestimating Luigi's aerials' range.) I think a Zelda should opt to shield his aerials instead of up tilt. If he's even unsafe, Zelda could get a better reward. Waiting out in some cases is just better IMO than trading.



Oh, and also, random Green Missile misfire kills at 50%, that is pretty early, but it's random, so ignore it if you want (Not a thing to ignore for us Luigi players though).
50% for sure? I'm gonna test percent comparisons on that...


He can rack up damage without grabs though. Dat U-smash combo is one of the example. 2 of them are worth 24-28%! Plus, he is unpredictable. He can easily swap dash grab with either Cyclone or Green Missile, or even, dash attack!
Sorry, but might I ask what is this Usmash combo? I'm not sure what it is, but of course, if it isn't a guaranteed (or very close to guaranteed.) combo, then Zelda's light weight might allow her to escape it earlier not because of KB, but because lighter chars have proportionally less hit-stun. Then she can either jump, or Nayru's. (risky, but there ARE intangible frames.)
 

Zylach

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Wow, learning all kinds of new stuff about this MU that I'm so unfamiliar with. Good info. I do agree with BJN39 though in that, even if sending a phantom at Weegee while he is recovering doesn't do anything, it does force the opponent to recover low (in most cases and sounds like Weegee wants to recover low anyway) which means we get a shot at dair. The invincibility frames on the cyclone (my bad calling it tornado earlier) were something I didn't even know existed though which nullifies the dair... interesting. I wonder, though, if Zelda would be able to send a phantom out at Weegee to eat his side-B. Zelda can go pretty damn deep offstage and recover safely. I dunno if this could be done effectively or even consistently but Weegee needs that side-B to recover from great distances doesn't he?

To answer your question Tritails, Zelda keeps opponents out with her disjointed hitboxes on several of her moves. Fsmash, jab, and ftilt are the most notable examples of this though ftilt has less range and extends her hurtbox unsafely compared to fsmash. She can also use an uncharged phantom, which reaches just beyond fsmash if I remember right, to push Weegee away and he should slide further than most of the cast though the endlag for phantom is uncomfortably long (I actually prefer custom phantoms compared to the default). Those are her only really safe spacing options. I've heard people say they really like using dtilt because of its speed and low endlag but I'm not a fan myself. It's range isn't as good and it's not disjointed so her hurtbox sticks out further than normal though it does make her shorter which is good in certain situations. I usually rely on dtilt when the opponent is already uncomfortably close. Upon reflection, stopping aerial approaches with utilt is probably riskier and less rewarding than just shielding. I've been playing a lot of For Glory recently against Lucina's, Marth's, Wario's, anyone that can go through my shield from the air so I've been practicing other techniques of getting around aerial approaches of all kinds.
Furthermore, Weegee using cyclone from the air down to the ground on me is probably the main reason I'm afraid of him because I rarely expect it. Yes, shielding this is a much better idea.
She's no Villager or Samus but she has tools to stop up-close-and-personal fighters from getting up close and personal. I'm really a fan of fsmash for spacing. I used it against an Ike who was approaching me with fair and caught him in it while his sword was barely at the tip of my face. I also caught a Marth from just beyond his fsmash tipper with my fsmash. Like I said earlier, its range is deceptively good and the disjointed hitboxes make it wonderfully safe.
 
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TriTails

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Well, misfire kills at around 60%, pardon me for that, but around 50%-70%.... or something like that.

Oh, and Cyclone is not invincible, I was talking about Up-b.

Thing is, Luigi prefers to recover low, but he CAN recover high if he want to, thanks to his Cyclone and it's amazing rising capabilities. This is why you must be ready to either jump of fall when gimping him, you don't know where he'll rise. Although, I am sure if Zelda manages to predict where he will rise, she can gimp him.

Wait, Up-b has invincibility when rising, and the animation will probably be cut short due to him latching on the ledge and gain ledge invincibility afterwards. But wait..... I recall a post saying that there is 1 frame of vunerability when you are trying to latch on the ledge. Is this true?

Well, Luigi's aerials aren't neccesarily rangey. I just said it is rangey for him because he is fighting with his bare hands, and he is rather short. His aerials are all pretty short-ranged for Zelda, but much more spammable.

Yeah, shielding when he tries to approach from above seem to be a good idea. Watch out for tomahawkings though!

Dat U-smash combo is basically repeatedly U-smashing an opponent when it's possible. Thing is, Luigi's U-smash front hit sends enemy backwards, while the back hit sends enemy fowards. This can be used to sends enemy back and forth. Although I have only managed to land 2 (Or 3 for some characters) of them before the enemy got knocked too far. I dunno if this would work for Zelda though, maybe he can at 0%, but I'll look to it.

Gimping Luigi with Phantom far away (So basically Zelda has to jump outta stage and charge it) is a bit hard. Luigis that expected this might release their missile early and go for Luigi Cyclone. I honestly has never ecounter a Zelda that does this. But if you managed to hit him, it might KO him. I have never see this though.

F-smash as spacing tool? Never knew about that, thanks. I thought it's only used as spotdodge punisher and the obvious KO move. Is it's range THAT good? I guess I'll check it out. Although, I'm not sure what happens when Cyclone clash with her F-smash. I'll say this though, Cyclone IS FAST!, on the ground at least. You'll need some good reads to punish it, especially when you don't expect it (Like, he is dashing at you, you expected a dash grab and spotdodged or rolled, only to get punished by a running Luigi Cyclone. Yeah, it's possible (If the Luigi player is gud enough, but it's not all that hard really)).

Heck, I think I lack critical knowledge about Zelda's tilts. I'll look into her moveset when I get the chance. Sorry if some of my arguments are wrong, but I do believe at least half of them are right.
 
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Zylach

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Ah, I misread your post. Weegee's Up-B has invincibility frames, not down-B, got it. As for the ledge grab vulnerability, yes, it exists. It's about 2 frames, I think, for every character in the game. Since every character can hit every other character during that short vulnerability time, it's not really considered in MUs I think. It just means some characters, like Zelda, don't have the godlike recovery a lot of people thought originally. Some characters can take advantage of it better than others though so I'm unsure about considering it for the MU. Zelda can nair and catch a lot of characters during that vulnerability because her nair is multihit. Weegee can do this too though with his nair soooooo... stalemate?

Sounds like Weegee's usmash combo wouldn't work that well on Zelda. You'd probably get away with 2 hits from 0% but she's pretty floaty.

I've started spacing with her fsmash. It does have a bit more endlag than ftilt and a lot more than jab and dtilt but the range and disjointedness are really effective for me. I know Marth's range isn't what it used to be and I expect moves like Ike's ftilt, Shulk's... anything, and possibly some others that I can't think of right now outrange it. It's great for punishing spotdodges as well as you mentioned. I know her fsmash outranges all of Weegee's attacks though which is why I mentioned it.

On a separate note, all of your insight on Luigi is really helpful. Much obliged for all of this sir.
 

A2ZOMG

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Luigi has a way better fireball than Mario that's basically as low commitment as ZSS Paralyzer. Reflecting it actually is probably a worse idea because Luigi can act sooner out of it.

Though like Mario, the vast majority of his KO setups don't really work on Zelda if you play a certain way and don't let him randomly U-smash you. But his grab combos are more frame tight than Mario's and lead to better KO confirms if you let him get close. D-throw Cyclone can KO deceptively early depending on DI/positioning.

I'd argue this matchup is probably even to very slight adv Zelda because better range, and able to get out of bad situations pretty easily most of the time. She does better against Mario though because Mario's grab and combo game is nowhere nearly as scary and his fireballs and Jab are a lot worse, plus Mario's F-air unlike Luigi's is garbage in neutral which makes his poke/approach options more limited. But whatever, it's your matchup thread.
 
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TriTails

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HOLY MACARONI!

Tested Zelda's moves in my 3DS, and....
FW Elevator kills Luigi at freaking 68%
F-air sweetspot kills Luigi at around 85% near the edge
Dat D-tilt is fast
U-air kills at 110% or so, not even close to the blast zone
F-smash completely obliterates Cyclone
D-air meteor is STRONG!

Her kill power is crazy! I know she kills easily, but... what?

However....
Luigi breaks the Phantom with just one B-air to the face (Literally, unless he hits the shield or sourspotted it, Phantom will break with one B-air)
Luigi can do FOUR F-AIRS IN ONE FULL HOP! Er, technically 3.5 F-airs. The 4th F-air animation don't last as long as the others, but it still has a hitbox, and it deals a solid 9%, just like the others!

And I think this MU is even, or maybe Zelda's advantage.... but seeing on how Mario wins, I don't see on how Luigi loses as well, as he loses to Mario in probably only mobility (Aerial mobilty, their ground speed aren't that much different).

Zelda can outrange Luigi and keep him at bay with her spacing moves. However, those spacing moves leave her vunerable for a bit ('Cept for jabs and D-tilt), and Phantom, as stated earlier, can be broken by just one solid B-air, thus putting outta commision for a while. Luigi MAY be able to just ram to Zelda with the Cyclone when she whiffs F-smash or F-tilt, but the window are pretty small. However, at least he has his Fireballs to mindgame with.

Aside from that, Luigi just flat-out destroys her in close combat, just like Mario. In fact, he is MUCH SCARIER due to his better combo ability and superior damage output. Be it on the ground or in the air (Well, if you don't let him repeatedly slap you with F-air or whatnot, then you have your range advantage). He also has lots of KO moves and options, and they all are STRONG!

However, Zelda has her kill moves as well, and they kill even earlier. She has range advanntage as long as she can space. She has superior air mobility, and this can be taken advantage of. She also has great defense moves, which can keep Luigi at bay. And her gimping abilities are pretty good as well, although it'll require some good reads to gimp Luigi.

I'd say this MU is worse for Zelda than Mario. Luigi has better air game (Yeah, his aerial mobility isn't really much of a problem when you get used by it. It's still a problem though) and his aerials are much more spammable and slightly quicker as well, as well as more powerful. He has better recovery in both distance and safety, as well as better combos.

I'm leaning for 60:40 Luigi... but I'd like to hear you Zelda players' opinions. Can't go throwing out opinions and not hearing any of other's opinions, can I?

Oh, and sorry for being such a noob, but what is neutral game? Searched all over the place and I can't find its meaning.
 

HeroMystic

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Oh, and sorry for being such a noob, but what is neutral game? Searched all over the place and I can't find its meaning.
The Neutral game is when both players have equal control and lacks an advantageous position against one-another. This is when footsies are the most important. Can go to this thread for a more detailed analysis on the concept.

I don't really have much to add to the discussion at hand, but I will say the constant comparisons to Mario is both amusing and silly at the same time. Luigi isn't automatically better than Mario at every match-up they're in.

When Mario and Luigi both have a difficult time approaching a character, Mario will have an inherent advantage over Luigi because his reaction speed is overall a lot better than Luigi's. Mario is also far better at chasing opponents than Luigi is, and his mobility makes him better at staying close and into his opponent's personal space. Mobility matters that much in match-ups where characters have effective spacing tools against the Mario Bros because Mario has a much easier time reacting to opportunities to get inside while Luigi does not. Cape and FLUDD are nothing to scoff at either. Best Luigi has is Cyclone.

I'd advise to just look at Luigi's toolkit and avoid the comparisons to Mario. The differences they have may seem little, but they matter greatly when their opponents have effective tools to space with.
 
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BJN39

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I'm loving the amount of discussion here!

Here are the current score contributions:

mountain_tiger : 5:5
BJN39 : 5:5
Zylach : 55:45
A2ZOMG : 5:5 - 55:45
TriTails : 4:6

Right now the number seems to gravitate toward averaging at 5:5. (Actual calculation was 4.95:5.05.) We'll see If more contributions concrete this, or if the overarching opinion has yet to be shown~

Feel free to note if any of your opinions change, or have changed. ^ ^
 
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TriTails

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I don't really have much to add to the discussion at hand, but I will say the constant comparisons to Mario is both amusing and silly at the same time. Luigi isn't automatically better than Mario at every match-up they're in.

When Mario and Luigi both have a difficult time approaching a character, Mario will have an inherent advantage over Luigi because his reaction speed is overall a lot better than Luigi's. Mario is also far better at chasing opponents than Luigi is, and his mobility makes him better at staying close and into his opponent's personal space. Mobility matters that much in match-ups where characters have effective spacing tools against the Mario Bros because Mario has a much easier time reacting to opportunities to get inside while Luigi does not. Cape and FLUDD are nothing to scoff at either. Best Luigi has is Cyclone.

I'd advise to just look at Luigi's toolkit and avoid the comparisons to Mario. The differences they have may seem little, but they matter greatly when their opponents have effective tools to space with.
Whoops! Sorry, got a little carried away with my post. I'll try to avoid comparisons to Mario from now on.

Thanks for the Neutral game explanation though! Real helpful!
 

HeroMystic

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Whoops! Sorry, got a little carried away with my post. I'll try to avoid comparisons to Mario from now on.
The comparison itself isn't the problem. I apologize if it came off that way or if I was directly posting towards you. A lot of people tend to compare the two and often stick them together. It's just that for the current moment in the metagame, people are high off of Luigi's (and Mario's) aggressive combat and I feel people often forget the big picture between the two.

Mario and Luigi are literally the Ryu and Ken of the Smash series. Their movesets look the same but the mechanics behind them sets their Match-ups and playstyles apart. If the comparisons are going to be made I just want them to be accurate ones.

I apologize setting this off-topic, just didn't want to make TriTails feel like I was singling him out.
 
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Zylach

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I think I was more at fault for comparing Mario and Luigi and that wasn't because they are similar but I'm getting an idea of how to rate Luigi based on the rating we have already come to. I'm trying to get an idea of Luigi's spot relative to Mario since we've already come to a basic understanding of where Mario ranks. I'll probably be making comparisons like this in the future but with different characters, like, "What Bowser has over Ganondorf is _____ and that's what makes Ganondorf easier for Zelda to handle," or something like that and the only comparison I'm making there is that they're heavyweights and I might be considering how Zelda handled Bowser and how that might look relative to Ganondorf or something. Sorry for any misunderstanding. I tend to think relatively instead of within the vacuum of one character. No disrespect to the bros. They are, each one of them, a special snowflake, though Luigi will still be the second snowflake.
 

BJN39

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I also admit some guilt at using the comparison to Mario. It's true that they have similar visual designs, (Which for me lead to the mental connection partially.) but it's definitely true Luigi is incredibly different in playstyle design, and overlooking that would be silly.

I would also like to say I have underestimated Luigi a little. I was looking around YT for good SSB4 vids, and came across multiple great Luigi ones. He looks really good in the right hands. His KO power is just unavoidable in some cases, and do his aerials even have endlag? LOL.

For now, my score still stands at 5:5, but I reiterate that I think it could even be 45:55.
 
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Meek Moths

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I would also like to say I have underestimated Luigi a little. I was looking around YT for good SSB4 vids, and came across multiple great Luigi ones. He looks really good in the right hands. His KO power is just unavoidable in some cases, and do his aerials even have endlag? LOL.
yeah, there are some really good videos of pro luigis like Boss. another good one i saw was called simply The Luigi Player.

but so far i have yet to see a pro luigi player fighting against some pro zelda like nairo (is there currently any other notable one? idk? ), which is why i think we dont have the clear answer as to who is currently better in this matchup :/

edit: oh it seems there was a new vid uploaded 20 hours ago of Nairo fighting against Boss's luigi what a coinidence! but he used his pit and not zelda. maybe that's a hint...

 
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JigglyZelda003

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i'm amazed no one's mentioned utilt as the "don't jump on me" button. i haven't fought many Luigi's but i know from the few i fought i stopped some of his aerials with Utilt.

also Mario summary is on the first page girls, take a look and see if i missed anything/anything i could add.
 

BJN39

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also Mario summary is on the first page girls, take a look and see if i missed anything/anything i could add.
Under general stages, it should be noted as well that Zelda should opt for omega stages that have as little "understage" as possible, ie no 90° vertical-wall-to-the-pit kind of omegas.

Also, heh? You went with 4:6?
 

TriTails

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I'd say Zelda vs Luigi MU is going to either end up as even, or maybe 55:45 Zelda. Luigi does not have a thing that makes Mario wins, mobility. Yeah, I know Luigi Cyclone gives crazy mobility on the ground, but it's disappointingly punishable.

But hang on.... if I was to look that way, Mario's MU is auto-better than Luigi.

(Oh just great TriTails. No, you don't want to use an inaccurate comparisons. Let's just focus on the Luigi's toolkit!)

I am staying with my 6:4 Luigi, but well, we'll see the results.
 

JigglyZelda003

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Under general stages, it should be noted as well that Zelda should opt for omega stages that have as little "understage" as possible, ie no 90° vertical-wall-to-the-pit kind of omegas.

Also, heh? You went with 4:6?
oh I did? Oops it was supposed to be 45:55 but I guess when I went back to edit something else it overwrote my 45:55 to 4:6 again lol. Will edit.
 

BJN39

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As it seems discussion went well, and the time length of Luigi's discussion has been even slightly longer than Mario's now, I'll just toss out the current scorings:

@ mountain_tiger mountain_tiger : 5:5
@ BJN39 BJN39 : 5:5
@ Zylach Zylach : 55:45
@ A2ZOMG A2ZOMG : 5:5 - 55:45
@ TriTails TriTails : 4:6
@ Macchiato Macchiato : 6:4

atm, the scores calculate to roughly 5:5.

Tagged y'all in case you wanted to make revisions before discussion ended. ;)
 

Macchiato

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How can someone so good at this game be so dumb???
I can't tell if this is a compliment or an insult lol

I can't see peach and ZSS not beating zelda like

ZSS, the thot the falls out of all of Zeldas moves and outspeeds her, not having an advantage

I would post a sassy gif but I'm on mobile

But I don't think nairos dumb, he just probably hasn't played these MUs enough
 
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JigglyZelda003

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Yall really think she does this well against him..?

Mess
general consensus came to no one really knows this matchup very well outside of Roll Glory so its fine to leave it at evenish for now lol
How can someone so good at this game be so dumb???
now sis everyone is entitled to her own opinion. as the viewers are to disagree.

but back to Luigi.
 

Nairo

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Then instead of saying "I'm not really sure about this MU" and not commenting at all, why spew some super ignorant opinion?

I know why, it's because all of you guys gas up these "top players" and treat them like gods among men, and they go around thinking their opinion(no matter how wrong it is) is valid, all because they win tournaments with good characters.
Instead of spewing **** like you are in here, read for one and maybe youd know that THATS WHAT I SAID ABOUT HALF OF THOSE CHARACTERS "IM NOT 100% SURE ABOUT THIS MU" but I forgot you are fujin, the guy who spews ignorant opinions about anything he doesn't like and feels he is right all the time lmao
 

Alacion

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Gotta wonder what's the point of a MU thread if nobody really uses her 100%. I was going to this month but all the tournies got moved to Sundays which I can't do. Maybe next month?

As a Brawl Zelda player and finding decent success with Melee Zelda (I mean top 8 in any mid-sized tourney made me a happy Zelda player when Fox can combo -> kill you starting at 60%), I want her to do well in Smash 4 sooo badly but I'm losing hope. I seriously wouldn't have put so many hours into my Brawl Zelda guide or maintaining the Brawl video thread / Smash 4 player finder if I didn't love the character. Please help.

To actually contribute... dair wrecks Luigi offstage. Always attempt this.
 
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Zylach

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Perhaps we should move on to another character since this seems be devolving into a flame war.
 

Alacion

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Perhaps we should move on to another character since this seems be devolving into a flame war.
No point really. At this point, the two best Zelda players completely ignore the Smash 4 Zelda boards leaving inexperienced Zelda players to speculate everything.

The same thing happened for Brawl, and why the Zelda MU threads were never productive. /thread
 

JigglyZelda003

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we still have to make an attempt at a matchup thread even if its a little flawed. Both for the inexperienced and who ever might decide to come across and try Zelda anyway.

besides other players of characters we discuss might have some valuable input because we know most of us Zelda's here don't attend tourneys for one reason or another. Some other players will come across our tourney Zelda's at some point.
 

Macchiato

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Ok ok I've played against few luigis in tournaments and I also mained him before so I know how he works. Let me contribute

In neutral game zelda just needs to space herself since luigi really looks for a grab. Space with pivot grabs, fsmash, and ftilt since we outranges him. When he spams fireballs, Dins become really helpful since they are gonna sheild, they aren't just gonna get hit by it and the shield fraction from luigi gives us an opening to approach. Don't sheild a lot because a grab combo from luigi can do 40%. If you see a tornado just fricken fsmash. He has a great airgame so I wouldn't try to challenge him in the air.

Offstage luigi may have a good recovery but it's super easy to gimp. Dins fire stops his missile and since his SJP doesn't have a lingering Hitbox like mario, he's easy to spike. Dins fire isn't a bad option. If he gets hit by a sourspot and loses his jump, then most likely he's dead.

In K.O.s it's pretty even since luigis Bair and smashes are strong but zelda has the elevator and her smashes kill early. Luigis SJP isn't really an option since the his sheild fraction makes it not a OOS option. I wouldn't worry about that.

Key moves would be
Fsmash for spacing and stopping tornados,
Dins for edgeguarding and approaching,
phantom for the reasons everyone else put,
Elevator, it kills
Dair, she can get a quick kill and spike

Stages, no platforms since luigi juggles really well and benefit him more. FD is the best option for zelda

In conclusion I think that the MU is 6:4.
 
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