Guide A Link Between Duels : SSB4 Zelda Matchup Thread: [Upd2] Diddy Kong

[A2ZOMG]

what does is the negative state mean i cant understand it, like when she's offstage?

Negative state = being in a bad position, which includes being above your opponent and offstage most commonly. Zelda like Pikachu, Yoshi, Pac Man, and Sonic is one of the best characters at getting out of the negative state and back into neutral.

 

[Meek Moths]

oh like that it makes sense.

sometimes tho i find myself in a bad position on stage. like when fighting quick chars who do many empty hops i dont know what to do. shoudl i approach them or let them approach? the thing is when i try to approach they most of the time react accodingly so its bad for me

 

[A2ZOMG]

oh like that it makes sense.

sometimes tho i find myself in a bad position on stage. like when fighting quick chars who do many empty hops i dont know what to do. shoudl i approach them or let them approach? the thing is when i try to approach they most of the time react accodingly so its bad for me

Zelda's main weakness is a limited neutral. Yeah she sometimes has to guess to get around strong short hop spacing. Most of what you should be doing is walking up with shield, and figuring out whether or not they like grabbing, or wait for a good time to DA or Dash Grab. It's worth remembering that Zelda can kill most characters a lot earlier than they can kill her, so you shouldn't be too afraid of taking risks early on to figure out how your opponent works.

Also Phantom is an option to throw out against people trying to short hop space a lot. Think of it as Falcon Kick in a sense, and use it against people who try really hard to stay out of DA range. At that range, it's usually safe on block in the event they do block it. Keep in mind that you can use this as a B reverse option in the air, which allows fake approach tactics among other things. It's probably less wise to use against Mario who can attempt to Cape it back, but fortunately DA, Jab, and F-smash usually beat his aerials.

 

[Meek Moths]

i always use reversed air phantom beause it looks dope. i guess walking with shield must be the best option. i always tried to dash and then shield but that never happens quickly enough so i get hit. not gonna do that anymore from now on

 

[Salad Bowl]

@ A2ZOMG
http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...hup-thread-currently-discussing-mario.384478/
Can you help us with the mario vs Jiggs MU?

 

[rabbit.soaring]

This is not the place for that @ Meek Moths -_-.

@ A2ZOMG I agree with what you said about Zelda being in a pretty good place offstage, but I think you might be overestimating Farore's Wind a bit. Zelda really can't deal with being above people. If she's close enough that she can teleport near or to ground level she'll probably be hit during startup, and if she's above that height she can't teleport down for obvious reasons. Farore's also has a lot of endlag, so against faster characters it shouldn't be used as a general mobility option, imo.

I still have no idea as to what the actual score is . MUs are hard.

 

[Inferno3044]

Coming in here to confirm that you should not take my play into consideration for MU discussion. I played the wii u version twice before that tourney and never played a zelda before (still got 13th out of 45. get at me :-P). I got hit by the elevator twice because I honestly just didn't take it into consideration. I asked Nairo what to do and he said the best thing is to just not get hit by it. Since I'm here, I might as well contribute.

Honestly, Zelda's UpB is the only thing I see as really scary about Zelda in this game. I'm not fearing getting gimped by Zelda. Yeah his recovery is mediocre at best, but if you have good recovery fundamentals you shouldn't be getting gimped. I see Zelda scoring a low% kill with UpB than an edgeguard. I see Mario juggling and racking up damage on Zelda quite easily. With increased hit stun all around, this means that Mario's fast moves such as uair, dair, and bair connect much easier with each other. Zelda has a poor neutral and basically has to rely on hard reads in order to win. He also just racks up damage much faster than Zelda and can apply much more pressure. Add Mario's increased kill power (Usmash can kill as low as 100% with better range, Fsmash as low as 85% depending on position and rage) and I see Mario solidly winning this. Dsmash and Bthrow also kill at lower percents. It's not nearly as big of a struggle as you guys make it sound. How is Zelda escaping Mario's strings? What percent does Zelda reliably kill and how does she set them up? How does Zelda gain advantage in the neutral and keep it? I won't make up that I know a lot about Zelda so answers to these would be nice.

For the sake of giving a number, 6:4 Mario. To me this means that Mario as a character has the advantage but it is still a winnable MU for Zelda. A2 is the ONLY person I've ever heard say Mario is worse in this game. He is entitled to his opinion, but everyone else I've heard talk about Mario says different. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but this is how I see it.

EDIT: What stages are good for Zelda? I don't wanna say go to Town and City (just throwing out a random stage) if she is bad on it. But Mario takes advantage of being mobile which means platforms are good for him. If I were a Zelda player, I would ban Lylat. Name a few good CP stages and I'll say which ones I think are good for Zelda to pick.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Lylat is still a horrible stage for Zelda, ban yes please.

Negative state = being in a bad position, which includes being above your opponent and offstage most commonly. Zelda like Pikachu, Yoshi, Pac Man, and Sonic is one of the best characters at getting out of the negative state and back into neutral.

Zelda has the worst time being in the air above people even at her own volition because she has no safe way to land on the ground and any attempted aerial will end in severe lag if done too low. using Faroes to get away is basically Zelda surrendering the stage to her opponent because she only has two directions to go too and anyone fast or with a gun can basically stand in the middle of the stage and take a 50/50 guess and be safe where as Zelda only gets a second to catch her breath before she's surrounded again. at least Mac has counter, Zelda only has spiral prayer.

 

[Meru.]

Negative state = being in a bad position, which includes being above your opponent and offstage most commonly. Zelda like Pikachu, Yoshi, Pac Man, and Sonic is one of the best characters at getting out of the negative state and back into neutral.

Why do you keep on insisting on this even though every Zelda player will deny it? Farore's Wind has SERIOUS lag. It was about 30 frames in Brawl and doesn't seem to have been decreased even a little. Even if you somehow manage to teleport away without getting hit during the first part, you're still at a major disadvantage. Often you just get punished for free, but even if you don't get punished you're in a bad position. Zelda is already light as she is, she can't afford getting hit. Why do keep denying the huge risk this move carries?

On top of that she is also floaty and her aerials are not reliable. She can throw out some lightning kicks and hope they will sweetspot in order to demand some respect from her opponent but that too is risky. How you could possibly consider this character to be one of the best to get out of the negative state is absolutely beyond my understanding.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Lylat is still a horrible stage for Zelda, ban yes please.

Zelda has the worst time being in the air above people even at her own volition because she has no safe way to land on the ground and any attempted aerial will end in severe lag if done too low. using Faroes to get away is basically Zelda surrendering the stage to her opponent because she only has two directions to go too and anyone fast or with a gun can basically stand in the middle of the stage and take a 50/50 guess and be safe where as Zelda only gets a second to catch her breath before she's surrounded again. at least Mac has counter, Zelda only has spiral prayer.

Mac gets grabbed for free when landing...soooo...

Also it's not really a true 50/50 when landing with Faores when you consider that your opponent has to make significantly different commitments to actually punish either of your landing options, which is something you can observe before choosing which direction you teleport in. So more accurately, if you have good reactions, you should be able to land without getting punished the majority of the time, and the few times you do actually get punished, your opponent should not be able to land a Smash on you given how difficult it is to cover Zelda's landing options.

I see Mario juggling and racking up damage on Zelda quite easily. With increased hit stun all around, this means that Mario's fast moves such as uair, dair, and bair connect much easier with each other. Zelda has a poor neutral and basically has to rely on hard reads in order to win. He also just racks up damage much faster than Zelda and can apply much more pressure. Add Mario's increased kill power (Usmash can kill as low as 100% with better range, Fsmash as low as 85% depending on position and rage) and I see Mario solidly winning this. Dsmash and Bthrow also kill at lower percents. It's not nearly as big of a struggle as you guys make it sound. How is Zelda escaping Mario's strings? What percent does Zelda reliably kill and how does she set them up? How does Zelda gain advantage in the neutral and keep it? I won't make up that I know a lot about Zelda so answers to these would be nice.

For the sake of giving a number, 6:4 Mario. To me this means that Mario as a character has the advantage but it is still a winnable MU for Zelda. A2 is the ONLY person I've ever heard say Mario is worse in this game. He is entitled to his opinion, but everyone else I've heard talk about Mario says different. Take everything I say with a grain of salt, but this is how I see it.

EDIT: What stages are good for Zelda? I don't wanna say go to Town and City (just throwing out a random stage) if she is bad on it. But Mario takes advantage of being mobile which means platforms are good for him. If I were a Zelda player, I would ban Lylat. Name a few good CP stages and I'll say which ones I think are good for Zelda to pick.

Firstoff, there isn't really increased hitstun in this game. There just simply is a removal of interrupting tumble with airdodge/attacks in this game. Most of Mario's "combos" in this game are pre-tumble strings, and they've always been unreliable, and they still are unreliable in this game when Zelda (or most characters without really specific fall speeds) can just jump out of them. So most of the time, Mario's low percent combos are only guaranteed to do about 12-17% in this game. Mario tries to do something at low percents? Zelda can just double jump, and teleport a good distance away if needed most of the time.

Pretty much all the combos you think work in this game, not only work in Brawl (more likely, they actually probably work better in Brawl if anything due to Mario in both games depending on hitting mid percents quickly for his aerial strings to connect properly), they do way more damage in that game.

Mario doesn't really have increased KO power outside of Rage sorta patching up things for him, but you have to keep in mind that Zelda has considerably better survivability than Mario, and will usually survive to higher percents than Mario given she can avoid most of Mario's preferred KO setups fairly easily.

Why do you keep on insisting on this even though every Zelda player will deny it? Farore's Wind has SERIOUS lag. It was about 30 frames in Brawl and doesn't seem to have been decreased even a little. Even if you somehow manage to teleport away without getting hit during the first part, you're still at a major disadvantage. Often you just get punished for free, but even if you don't get punished you're in a bad position. Zelda is already light as she is, she can't afford getting hit. Why do keep denying the huge risk this move carries?

On top of that she is also floaty and her aerials are not reliable. She can throw out some lightning kicks and hope they will sweetspot in order to demand some respect from her opponent but that too is risky. How you could possibly consider this character to be one of the best to get out of the negative state is absolutely beyond my understanding.

As I explained earlier, your opponent has to make considerably different commitments to cover Zelda's landing options, which include drifting, B reverse Down-B, and Faores in two directions. Your opponent's commitment is something you can react to BEFORE you actually commit to an escape option. Assuming you're not making a blatantly non-competitive error, there is no situation where your opponent is landing a Smash on you for landing unless the matchup is something like Sonic or Little Mac who have ******** mobility and land trap options, and most of the time you probably aren't getting punished at all assuming you reacted correctly.

Zelda can afford taking hits when most hard reads into KO moves basically don't work on her, and when she's also immune to edgeguards.

 

[Salad Bowl]

Mac gets grabbed for free when landing...soooo...

Also it's not really a true 50/50 when landing with Faores when you consider that your opponent has to make significantly different commitments to actually punish either of your landing options, which is something you can observe before choosing which direction you teleport in. So more accurately, if you have good reactions, you should be able to land without getting punished the majority of the time, and the few times you do actually get punished, your opponent should not be able to land a Smash on you given how difficult it is to cover Zelda's landing options.

Firstoff, there isn't really increased hitstun in this game. There just simply is a removal of interrupting tumble with airdodge/attacks in this game. Most of Mario's "combos" in this game are pre-tumble strings, and they've always been unreliable, and they still are unreliable in this game when Zelda (or most characters without really specific fall speeds) can just jump out of them. So most of the time, Mario's low percent combos are only guaranteed to do about 12-17% in this game. Mario tries to do something at low percents? Zelda can just double jump, and teleport a good distance away if needed most of the time.

Pretty much all the combos you think work in this game, not only work in Brawl (more likely, they actually probably work better in Brawl if anything due to Mario in both games depending on hitting mid percents quickly for his aerial strings to connect properly), they do way more damage in that game.

Mario doesn't really have increased KO power outside of Rage sorta patching up things for him, but you have to keep in mind that Zelda has considerably better survivability than Mario, and will usually survive to higher percents than Mario given she can avoid most of Mario's preferred KO setups fairly easily.

As I explained earlier, your opponent has to make considerably different commitments to cover Zelda's landing options, which include drifting, B reverse Down-B, and Faores in two directions. Your opponent's commitment is something you can react to BEFORE you actually commit to an escape option. Assuming you're not making a blatantly non-competitive error, there is no situation where your opponent is landing a Smash on you for landing unless the matchup is something like Sonic or Little Mac who have ******** mobility land trap options, and most of the time you probably aren't getting punished at all assuming you reacted correctly.

Zelda can afford taking hits when most hard reads into KO moves basically don't work on her, and when she's also immune to edgeguards.

http://smashboards.com/threads/poke...hup-thread-currently-discussing-mario.384478/
Can you help the jigglys on the mario MU

 

[Meru.]

As I explained earlier, your opponent has to make considerably different commitments to cover Zelda's landing options, which include drifting, B reverse Down-B, and Faores in two directions. Your opponent's commitment is something you can react to BEFORE you actually commit to an escape option. Assuming you're not making a blatantly non-competitive error, there is no situation where your opponent is landing a Smash on you for landing unless the matchup is something like Sonic or Little Mac who have ******** mobility and land trap options, and most of the time you probably aren't getting punished at all assuming you reacted correctly.

Zelda can afford taking hits when most hard reads into KO moves basically don't work on her, and when she's also immune to edgeguards.

All right, she doesn't get hit by "a hard KO move" when she uses Farore's. Instead she'll just get hit by a dash attack, a grab or an aerial and she's in a disadvantaged position again. Being hit, eating damage and being sent is not something any character would want, even those with strong aerial defenses. However, Zelda's aerial defense isn't even strong, it's weak because she's slow and she has no safe aerials or specials. Getting hit by whatever move is bad.

Besides, if those hard KO moves don't work on a slow character with weak aerial defenses, then on what character will they? Not that you really need them though because you can harass her all the time with quick, weaker moves until she dies... aka Mario's entire aerial kit.

 

[evmaxy54]

Zelda can afford taking hits when most hard reads into KO moves basically don't work on her, and when she's also immune to edgeguards.

I have no idea what you're trying to say in the first half of the sentence because she's pretty light.

But LOL at the bolded part she ain't immune to edgeguards. She'll always want to go for the ledge when recovering so just throw a Bair or Nair at the ledge & that's some free damage & possibly a stage spike unless the Zelda can tech it. If she recovers high or onto the stage (because LOL), you get a free attack of practically anything you want (providing you know where the shield button is).



I honestly don't know the MU too much, but it's certainly not even/Zelda's favour.

 

[Meek Moths]

I think both Yaay and A2 are right. zelda landing can be simply very easily punished but if you do it right it can be sneaky!

but as for the mario matchup, if you have ever fought mario, you would have noticed that its really aint a very difficult matchup for zelda. most of the time its real cake walk. even when the mario is good, beating him is not something you should be afraid of. at least not as much as fighting something like sheik or sonicu.

 

[BJN39]

I wanted to address these HeroMystic, I meant to do this sooner, so, sorry if you didn't wanna like, be dragged in again or something. ^ ^

-Mario actually doesn't recover from below a lot. This only happens if he fails to DI correctly, and I'm pretty sure with the exception of Zelda's D-Smash, there's not really anything that forces Mario to recover low. The reason why you see @ Inferno3044 constantly recover low with Mario is because he literally had no MU experience with Zelda and had no idea what she could do, so he constantly did silly things like use his second jump off the ledge and do regrabs on the ledge. As long as Mario keeps his second jump he's not really going to get spiked.

-I don't really have much idea about the elevator but it seems from the match posted, it can be DI'd and she'll miss completely. Still, good to use as a surprise option when Mario isn't being safe on shield.

-Even though Phantom can be caped, I would still recommend using it for off-stage application just so Mario doesn't get back on stage for free if he has to recover low for some reason. Just be smart about it because a good Mario will save his second jump and cape if he's sees trouble incoming.

Mario won't really care if you powershield his fireballs. The point of them isn't for damage but rather to control space and to not allow you to do whatever you want. If you're shielding, it means you can't move and Mario can move closer and paitently wait for an opening to attack.

First paragraph: Well, if he doesn' recover low, then Zelda can feel free to risk a phantom, which could either hit him (Obviously preventable if Mario wants to spend a cape.) or it could simply be spaced at the edge to be a pushing hit-box and mess with his recovery, or go at him with a NAir. Zelda won't be afraid of using NAir, or even FFing a NAir over the edge, and if she can connect an earlier multi-hit, she can potentially drag mario dangerously low. You COULD also go for a deep DAir or Kick, but both of those would require a bit of luck, and seem less optimal as Mario probably won't let Zelda get at those angles on him while recovering anyways.

Second paragraph: While yes, you CAN DI it and possibly avoid the fatal aerly FW2 KO, the move comes out frame 7, so catching it in time to react and DI can be difficult. And of course, it can be one JC OoS making it one of her fastest options, not to mention the disappear hit-box is surprisingly large.

Of course, a great Mario could likely get the reaction DI more often, but with the same theoretical very fast reaction speed, Zelda should be able to also do a reaction ANGLING of FW to hit them anyways, or she could simply abort the attempt by teleporting down or sideways, disallowing Mario from punishing her.

As for the fireball thingy, I just wanted to make the point that Zelda should not be taking more than 10% on a stock from fireballs. Obviously you make a good point he's also using them for control. Of course, if the Zelda doesn't make an opening, it's just a stalemate, I guess...

 

[A2ZOMG]

All right, she doesn't get hit by "a hard KO move" when she uses Farore's. Instead she'll just get hit by a dash attack, a grab or an aerial and she's in a disadvantaged position again. Being hit, eating damage and being sent is not something any character would want, even those with strong aerial defenses. However, Zelda's aerial defense isn't even strong, it's weak because she's slow and she has no safe aerials or specials. Getting hit by whatever move is bad.

Besides, if those hard KO moves don't work on a slow character with weak aerial defenses, then on what character will they? Not that you really need them though because you can harass her all the time with quick, weaker moves until she dies... aka Mario's entire aerial kit.

And see, the thing is most character's don't have Zelda's ability to reposition. And realistically your opponent literally has to hard read Zelda's recovery to even be in range for weak hits. Most of the time, minus playing against heavy bruiser characters (who can get randomly hit by fullhop kicks), you force your opponent to KO you post 150%. Keeping in mind Zelda has a multitude of moves that can KO early without rage, as well as an above average KO b-throw.

By your logic, Yoshi is a garbage character, because all his aerials are trash for landing and risky to throw out against opponents trying to juggle him. Character is really easy to outprioritize in the air realistically, even his Down-B gets eaten up by a lot of aerials aside from its landing lag. But wait, he's a top 5 character that tends to get back to neutral easily because high top aerial speed + b reverse is powerful to the point of requiring observably different commitments to cover.

Nobody is saying you won't occasionally cover Zelda's landing and tap her with something. But realistically, it's a lot more difficult to do that than you're trying to claim it is, and meanwhile Zelda reaches 160% especially against Mario who doesn't really have the mobility to set up his short ranged Smashes, and threatens to kill people at I dunno, like 70% with her usual tools for land trapping.

 

[Alphatron]

I don't think it makes sense to even bring up Yoshi in comparison to Zelda. Yoshi has aerials with large hitboxes that cover most of his body. Zelda has a nair with no vertical hitbox and 20 frames of landing lag if you do it too close to the ground. Yoshi can nair, hitting people underneath him, and then almost immediately jab after landing.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda's D-air has a large lingering hitbox that beats a lot of things directly below her, plus she has Naryus which has invincibility frames. Also, Yoshi only has really low landing lag on his N-air, which both has short range and is generally not safe on block. Most characters actually have a pretty easy time directly beating Yoshi's aerials, given he's not a very disjointed character outside of what might be a few invincibility frames on his head during F-air. The only reason he ever lands safely is because his aerial top speed + B reverses are really strong.

The comparison is made is because these characters use very similar methods to get back into neutral, and can do so very reliably by outmaneuvering juggle attempts. Heck, Sonic likewise is one of the hardest characters to trap. All his aerials have terrible landing lag.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

Zelda's D-air has a large lingering hitbox that beats a lot of things directly below her, plus she has Naryus which has invincibility frames. Also, Yoshi only has really low landing lag on his N-air, which both has short range and is generally not safe on block. Most characters actually have a pretty easy time directly beating Yoshi's aerials, given he's not a very disjointed character outside of what might be a few invincibility frames on his head during F-air. The only reason he ever lands safely is because his aerial top speed + B reverses are really strong.

The comparison is made is because these characters use very similar methods to get back into neutral, and can do so very reliably by outmaneuvering juggle attempts. Heck, Sonic likewise is one of the hardest characters to trap. All his aerials have terrible landing lag.

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but if what you said is correct... they don't. Yoshi uses his incredible air mobility to land safely, which Zelda doesn't have. Dair is slow on startup, and only hits below her, so it's really not a very good option, even if we don't look at the horrible landing lag. Nayru's isn't going to work unless they jump right into her, it slows her fall speed so she can't get back to the ground with it, and it has a bit of endlag, as well. I don't think Yoshi and Zelda are similar at all.

 

[A2ZOMG]

Zelda's airspeed is actually decent. Let's clear that up. B reverse Phantom is a thing, and works quite while on Zelda. Then there's aforementioned Faores which as stated requires completely different commitments for your opponent to cover. I'd also add not only does D-air have a good hitbox, its autocancel window is fairly generous.

All things point to Zelda being a character having many options in the air to reset situations and avoid being capitalized on. Mario depends a lot on chasing landings with U-smash to get KOs at reasonable percents, something which is much more difficult for him to do against a character like Zelda who can easily reposition outside of his preferred zones, and also generally speaking can outrange him on the ground with safe moves.

 

[rabbit.soaring]

Zelda's airspeed is actually decent. Let's clear that up. B reverse Phantom is a thing, and works quite while on Zelda. Then there's aforementioned Faores which as stated requires completely different commitments for your opponent to cover. I'd also add not only does D-air have a good hitbox, its autocancel window is fairly generous.

All things point to Zelda being a character having many options in the air to reset situations and avoid being capitalized on. Mario depends a lot on chasing landings with U-smash to get KOs at reasonable percents, something which is much more difficult for him to do against a character like Zelda who can easily reposition outside of his preferred zones, and also generally speaking can outrange him on the ground with safe moves.

Uh wait this is assuming Zelda is directly above her opponent, right? I wouldn't want to argue over a misunderstanding. Phantom has a very specific hitbox, and like all of Zelda's moves, a lot of endlag. Easily punishable even for slow characters. Farore's still has a bit of startup and tons of endlag, as well. If Zelda is Dairing close enough to the ground to autocancel, she'll be hit first.

 

[A2ZOMG]

You don't need to hit anything for a B reverse to be useful, and when charged up, Phantom is pretty safe on block. Ending lag on Faores? You have basically the option to appear at exact opposite ends of the stage on demand. There is almost no way you punish this reactively unless you're basically as fast as Little Mac, and in order to cover either of the options reliably, you have to actually commit to something. So basically, the point is when Zelda manages her options and reacts properly, she can almost always intelligently choose something that will put her back into neutral. Her opponent has to hope she messes up to get a punish, and normally it's almost never a KO move when it actually does happen.

 

[Meru.]

._.

@ A2ZOMG This sounds like theory smash to the max. Could you post me a vid of an intelligent Zelda player pulling out this stuff successfully?

 

[BJN39]

I'd also add not only does D-air have a good hitbox, its autocancel window is fairly generous.
.

Actually, no.

It's ending AC window is 4 frames long, around 16 frames after the hit-box disappears.

Its AC window is pathetically bad. It's comparatively less bad than before since a lot of aerials have bad AC windows now, but still. I just felt that needed to be cleared up.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Dair has a nice fub hitbox to catch people who try to follow up on Zelda sometimes as a way to muscle her way down, but its still a poor option coming back down. In regards to Mario it is an option in an air to air situation if he is below her, but considering the speed of his Uair you have to know exactly when its coming to basically stomp him with a "don't kick me." Mario can still opt to toss Zelda in the air and just follow her on the ground for an attempt at an Usmash.

 

[Salad Bowl]

I need a popcorn gif. Fuugin get me a gif

 

[rabbit.soaring]

You don't need to hit anything for a B reverse to be useful, and when charged up, Phantom is pretty safe on block. Ending lag on Faores? You have basically the option to appear at exact opposite ends of the stage on demand. There is almost no way you punish this reactively unless you're basically as fast as Little Mac, and in order to cover either of the options reliably, you have to actually commit to something. So basically, the point is when Zelda manages her options and reacts properly, she can almost always intelligently choose something that will put her back into neutral. Her opponent has to hope she messes up to get a punish, and normally it's almost never a KO move when it actually does happen.

lol you're just gonna drop Dair? Phantom has enough lag to be punished if B reversed while Zelda is directly above Mario. Zelda honestly has very few options with Farore's, and if you're aware of where she can teleport and where she can't, unless she's right in the center of the stage she probably won't get away with it. Not to mention you have to be fairly close to the ground before you can teleport directly to the ground and still get decent horizontal distance. Zelda just doesn't have a good time trying to land. Farore's isn't really a good way to return to neutral, unless your opponent tries way too hard to chase you into the air.

 

[A2ZOMG]

lol you're just gonna drop Dair? Phantom has enough lag to be punished if B reversed while Zelda is directly above Mario. Zelda honestly has very few options with Farore's, and if you're aware of where she can teleport and where she can't, unless she's right in the center of the stage she probably won't get away with it. Not to mention you have to be fairly close to the ground before you can teleport directly to the ground and still get decent horizontal distance. Zelda just doesn't have a good time trying to land. Farore's isn't really a good way to return to neutral, unless your opponent tries way too hard to chase you into the air.

Save your double jump and position carefully before you Up-B, and if your opponent is directly under you, they will have a hell of a time trying to punish your landing on the ground if they don't have insane run speed or fast projectiles. It's not that hard to get back to the ground. And if your opponent ever does so much a short hop, just Up-B and you get back to the ground for free.

 

[BJN39]

@ JigglyZelda003 Mario has been going on for a while now, and we've seen plenty of decent discussion! I'm pleased to see that we're getting off good for now.

I made a list of people who made a number or mentioned a number on the MU so far, and here's what we got

Salad Bowl : 4:6
rabbit.soaring : No score yet, but noted as likely Mario's favor.
mountian_tiger : 5:5
BJN39 : 5:5
A2ZOMG : 55:45
HeroMystic : Currently no score, but hinted at Mario's favor.
Inferno3044 : 4:6

As can be seen, it's widely accepted Zelda doesn't win the MU. It varies between roughly even, to Mario's favor. Simple calculations would put this at around 45:55. IDK how you want to do the final score tally, but that's one way.

I say we should try and get a few more scores, and discuss it to death! (LOL) @ HeroMystic and @ Inferno3044 if you'd like to mention this MU thread to any other smart Marios, we'd greatly appreciate it! ^ ^ Calling all Zeldas with experience who haven't gotten to contribute too!

 

[HeroMystic]

The problem is the number of Mario mains that frequent our board is small (literally myself and about six others), and I'm pretty sure none of us outside of Inferno has real match-up experience against Zelda.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with giving an actual ratio due to this, but I do believe Mario has the advantage, I'm just not sure by how much. So to play it safe, I'm going to say 45:55 Mario.

 

[BJN39]

The problem is the number of Mario mains that frequent our board is small (literally myself and about six others), and I'm pretty sure none of us outside of Inferno has real match-up experience against Zelda.

Personally, I'm uncomfortable with giving an actual ratio due to this, but I do believe Mario has the advantage, I'm just not sure by how much. So to play it safe, I'm going to say 45:55 Mario.

Thanks for the number! Don't worry if you don't have an exact feeling on the score. Feel free in the future to change it, it's not like opinions don't change. We can simply recalculate the MU score from there. I mean, how many times has a MU been voted to be drastically different now then from what it was years ago?

---




For now, I'm compiling all of our data into a nice little MU table. Right now it obviously isn't finished (Niether is our discussion of Mario atm.) but I'd like to fill it with any and all points on the MU.

| 45:55 Individual Scores |

Spoiler

Salad Bowl : 4:6 // rabbit.soaring : Noted as likely Mario's favor // mountian_tiger : 5:5 // BJN39 : 5:5 // A2ZOMG : 55:45 // HeroMystic : 45:55 // Inferno3044 : 4:6 // Zylach : 4:6

Pros |Adding Soon
Cons |Adding Soon
Key Moves |Adding Soon
Stages |Zelda will want to take Mario to a stage with little or no platforms, such as FD, as Mario can use platforms far better than Zelda in this MU. It should be noted as well to pick Omega forms that have no pit-reaching vertical walls if possible, as to not allow him extra recovery capabilities with wall kicks. Also, try and NEVER go to Lylat. Ever.

EDIT : Okay, kind of messing around with this table to test some capabilities, lol. Ignore the constant changing...[/B]

 

[Zylach]

I guess I'll add my two cents. I'll agree with the majority here and say that this is 4:6 in Mario's favor. Racking up damage on him as Zelda is difficult because he's one of the quicker characters in the game and Zelda can't deal with them easily. Then, to top it all off, getting a kill on him is difficult because all of our killing moves require good reads or luck or both and catching Mario is tricky. My most reliable way of killing him is gimping off stage like others have mentioned but it's not foolproof by any means. What we do have over him is the ability to start going for the kill much earlier than him and we also don't run the risk of getting hit by his annoying f-air offstage thanks to our recovery being better than most. It's uphill for us but not terribly uphill.

 

[Salad Bowl]

@kyokoro_pamuyo @IsmaR Can you guys get this stickied?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

There has been quite a bit of discussion here. we are almost at the weeks end so i say we can just begin luigi tomorrow

 

[BJN39]

Just thought about adding that since it's been agreed that Zelda wants to use her range advantage in this MU, the moves Ftilt and Jab seem like Key Moves as far as spacing goes IMO. Just adding for the whole key moves spot.

 

[busken]

Thanks to @ BJN39 to help you guys on the Luigi Matchup.

Weakness: Trouble Approaching, Lack of Range

Strengths: Amazing Combo potential, 3 methods of recovery

Luigi's biggest weakness is no doubt his lack of range, it is up to you guys to use moves that can space yourself from him and keep you at distance where you are safe or you pay for it. Against most characters his go-to approach option will be either a short hop aerial or cyclone, be sure to use moves that out-prioritize these options, most notably cyclone. If you see Luigi rushing down at you he wants a grab, as one grab can get him at least 30% on you. Having this in mind, be sure to use moves that out-prioritize his grab. His grab range is pretty short, so when he is close enough you know what he wants. In summary, Luigi's devastating combos can completely destroy you if you are reckless. Always stay on your toes, and keep him at a distance. If he does manage to grab you use your fastest aerial or get-out option. If he is recovering from the sides of the blast zone be sure to throw out a din's fire as he nothing he can do to stop that. So all in all, never let him get to close, use moves to out-prioritize his cyclone and grabs, and don't be afraid to punish his horizontal recovery.

I hoped this helped, I am pretty sure fellow Luigi mains can also give their input.

 

[Meek Moths]

If he is recovering from the sides of the blast zone be sure to throw out a din's fire as he nothing he can do to stop that.

yea, this is very true! not only that, but it also cancels his Green Missile, which leads to a gimp most of the time. If it wont gimp him, his only way to survive is using Cyclone, which should be punished ^.^

 

[BJN39]

Yay! It now says Luigi!

I feel like this MU may have gotten better for Zelda in SSB4 than it was in Brawl. Probably not by more than a tiny bit, though.

I don't claim know all about Luigi, buts here's what I've got.
Pros : Range! Similar to Mario, we can outrange him in multiple moves, Ftilt, Jab, Fsmash, and even the front side of Dsmash and our Grab outrange some or most of his ground moves.

We can kill him on the earlier side of the spectrum with FW Elevator, so Luigi will need to be very careful about on shield safety at around 80% and up (Or as low as 60% If you can manage to stay alive until around 100% and get good rage boosts.) as to not accidentally let himself get taken to the top floor. All of our other high KB moves will also appreciate Luigi's lighter weight as an aid to KOing earlier.

Luigi has low-ish mobility. We acually have better air speeds than he does, and his run speed is only average. We can use this to try and shorten possible juggle attempts. Also, his fireball doesn't pose the same threat that Mario's does. We can atually use FW to reflect it if we want without getting annihilated.

Luigi may be one of the MUs where Din's actually has some utility. As mentioned already, Din's can be somewhat useful against a recovering Luigi. Din's cancells out Luigi missile as a bonus. Phantom also appears to be more useable for edgeguards and for fireball blocking. Still though, use these two sparingly, they're still the unfortunate moves we know and hate love.


Cons : Do NAWT, get grabbed. Luigi has some of the most impressive easy damage grab combos. Getting grabbed at almost any percent can lead into a followup. An easy 30% is lost off of an early grab. Don't let him have that advantage if you can. Luckily for Zelda, his grab as mentioned by busken, is rather short ranged. You'll want to try and challenge it with either Dtilt or Dsmash (Her fastest ground options.) and break the grab as he grabs you. You'll only suffer 3% instead of 30% if you can.

While his aerials do not have lots of range to show off (Somewhat like Zelda's.) NAir packs impressive combo breaking abilities, and the rest of his aerials contain useable properties such as KO power or good frame data. I recommend not trying to go against him in the open air.

Luigi can kill, and we are light. Simply put we need to be careful of whiffing FW elevators and using slug moves at higher percents, since a good Luigi will not slack on the use of his amazing aerly KO moves like Fsmash, and even Dragon Punch if he can get the chance. Also For the most part, Luigi's attacks are faster than ours, and thus, safer than ours in neutral or well spaced on a shield.

Key Moves :
DAir : Luigi's recovery is quite linear, so pinpointing him won't be as hard as other characters. In some cases, you can even gimp him with a sourspot. Also, trading with his sourspot up B is like being hit with a kick sourspot...LOL.

Farore's Wind (Elevator) : As I always say, it's key for every MU. It is our earliest KO option, and is great for OoS punishes (It's only frame 7!) as always be careful though, keep as quick as you can to note if Luigi DIs away and react accordingly by grounding it as to not be hit by one of his deadly moves for whiffing.

Rangy Moves : Ftilt, Jab, and Fsmash are all great at outranging Luigi, even if Fsmash doesn't connect all the time (Or at all LOL)

Stages : I can't comment on this atm, I'm not sure whether or not we can use platforms better.

Score : I'm not sure exactly... Perhaps I'll give a more definite score later. If it were really slightly better than it was in Brawl, it would range roughly between 50:50 and 55:45 (Our favor) I think it is on of those, I'm just not sure if she actually could have a slight advantage over someone. It's a hard thing for a Zelda to accept...LOL.

 

[Alacion]

For future reference, Nairo says Zelda beats:

Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Wario, Donkey Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus, Marth, Ike, and Duck Hunt.

She goes even with: Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Palutena.

Note: He skipped the bottom row of characters.

 

[BJN39]

For future reference, Nairo says Zelda beats:

Peach, Bowser, Bowser Jr., Wario, Donkey Kong, Mr. Game & Watch, Ganondorf, Toon Link, Samus, Marth, Ike, and Duck Hunt.

She goes even with: Zero Suit Samus, Pit, Palutena.

Note: He skipped the bottom row of characters.

*shrugs*

Oh well. If @Nairo ever wants to share input on any MUs he has experience with when they come around, I'm sure we'd be happy to get more MU data. I'm definitely interested on his views and reasons.

buT,

If Zelda beats Marth, she sure as heck beats Mopcina. I hope he just forgot to add her. >_>