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No offense, but why did you bother making this thread if that's your answer to most MUs?
Most of what you quoted was courtesy of my predecessor, MrEh, the most entertaining Bowser player ever.
The best follow ups Ganon gets on certain characters are iDA and ftilt. I can't remember if he gets those on Bowser, but fresh iDA is still only only koing Bowser 120%+ with good DI. It's also likely to be stale because it's probably Ganon's best approach in this MU, and if it's fresh that means he hasn't been using his best grounded move so it's unlikely he'd be doing well anyway. Ftilt could be good to get him offstage at a good angle for a reverse uair gimp though. He won't be getting many sidebs off anyway if Bowser is playing the MU properly.
DLA the fire breath point is kinda pointless because no good Bowser or Charizard would hold it for long unless the opponent is offstage.
Trying to catch Ganon in the middle of the flame to rack damage is stupid and you will get SDI'd punished, I know that. I was talking about spacing with the tip of the flame, which you either don't hold at all or for very little time so they can't sdi punish you. It's particularly good for catching landings or jumps safely from a distance.
I also can't see what Ganon can do to a shield-happy Bowser, but I'm probably missing something there.
And would wizkick beat out retreating fair? I thought grounded wizkick had pretty bad priority. I'm pretty sure it doesn't beat out retreating klaw.
I'm not going to argue anything else you said because I'm not a top player.
I agree that is possible, but I'll trust top-level evidence over theorycraft anyday. I don't mean just one set either, because we'd need a lot of Bowser vs. Ganon data before a fair conclusion could be made.That obviously helps but that doesn't mean they're playing the MU properly. A lot of people play low tier MUs wrong due to lack of experience or not realising that they can just wait for the LT to approach and react to the LT's poor tools.
Genesis 2 was over 9 months ago, and those were friendlies. Not saying I don't believe your vs. Bowser prowess (because I know you're good!), but I was thinking more along the lines of a bracket or money match with Zigsta or Limit now. Beating Kirk is definitely proof in your favor, and I'd enjoy fighting your Ganon myself, if we ever cross paths at a regional/national.
You'll be back in the game this summer, dude. Go tear NY/NJ a new one.
Indeed, KingKong really was our best player, and it's a shame that he retired, because now our character is dying for players who can actually do work at a regional or national level. I'd also enjoy facing your Ganon, if we ever meet.
That bolded part reminds me of my current thoughts on pairing up higher-tier secondaries with low-tiers. Recently, I've been thinking to myself that picking up a good secondary for Bowser kinda defeats the purpose of maining Bowser in the first place. You're either playing to win or playing to have fun/challenge yourself/advance your favorite character's metagame. If you're gonna pair Bowser up with say........Falco, for instance, then why would you ever use Bowser at all? Just use Falco for every match, because Bowser is certainly not adding any MU advantages to the pairing.
Play in America. Failing that, UpB when he tornado's your shield and he wont do it as much anymore I'll wager. And just don't approach. Ever.
In addition to Ganon, I also play about 5 or 6 secondaries in tournament. My philosophy is that I want to improve as a player, not as a specific character main.
It's a good advice because I should play defensively against him, but...what if he doesn't approach himself and waits me to do so half the time? He'll think I'm playing "gay". I can beat him on other stages fine.
Responses are in orange.In addition to Ganon, I also play about 5 or 6 secondaries in tournament. My philosophy is that I want to improve as a player, not as a specific character main.
I don't play the game solely to advance Ganon's metagame, nor do I solely play to win. I play to become the best Smash player I can. I mean, I don't owe any loyalty to Ganon or anything. If I pick up a secondary, it's because I like that secondary. Not because it will help me win.
I respect your philosophy, and I wish that I could settle on one myself. I feel compelled to go "all-or-nothing," meaning that I'll either go all Bowser to take his metagame to the limit, or I'll only play viable characters to take myself to the limit. To me, it's more about having a focus as a player than having loyalty to a character. Of course, even if I do play to win, I'll only play viable characters that I like. This game's not worth playing if you don't enjoy who you play. Bowser may be my favorite, but there are other characters that I like and would be willing to pick up.
The reason I still even play Ganon in tournament is because I honestly feel more confident using him against many players/characters than I do using my secondaries. If any of my secondaries ever gets better than my Ganon at a particular MU, then I'll have no qualms using that character instead of my Ganon in that MU. Because if I used Ganon, I would be unfairly limiting myself because of some misplaced sense of pride. I'd rather face my loss head-on than be able to say "meh I could have won if I didn't main Ganon."
You see, I agree with that, and it kind of supports my point about the low tier main becoming obsolete with the presence of the secondary. Sure, your confidence and skill with Ganon means that he's actually your personal best choice for many MUs, but eventually, the secondaries will overtake him. That's why the middle ground (Bowser + Secondary) isn't really an option to me.
I understand some people play one character because they only feel comfortable using that character in tournaments. But you gotta understand that the vast majority of people who play secondaries in tournament don't just do it to win. The fact is that you pretty much need to enjoy playing a character in order to be motivated to level that character up enough to be able to use it in tournament. In other words, they wouldn't use secondaries in tournament if they didn't enjoy using those secondaries. And this is even more true now that MK is largely banned.
Oh, I'm definitely aware of that. Most people really do only play who they like, and that's great. I'd only question the logic of keeping the low tier around, because if you have a superior secondary that you also like, then why use the low tier anymore? Regardless of their reason for keeping the low tier around, I'll respect their decision, just as much as I'd respect someone who's only playing to win. All I would do is ask, because I like learning what motivates players to do what they do.
It's not like you're "betraying" your character if you use a secondary in tournament. He's a bunch of pixels on a TV screen for ****'s sake. Hell I feel like Ganon betrays ME when I put so much effort into him and still get gimped at 0% by shuttle loop.
Betrayal? That's certainly not what I'm worried about, because like you said, he's just pixels on a TV screen.
All I want is a clear goal and a clear focus. Do I want to work towards becoming the best Bowser, or do I want to work towards becoming the most successful player I could possibly be? I'll have fun pursuing either goal, so it's a tough choice for me. It's all a matter of determining what matters more in my eyes.
Anyway, thanks for sharing your views, DLA. You definitely gave me some food for thought.
Aside from not approaching, I guess the only other thing you could do is Jab. A lot. Jab and throw out FTilts because if spacing if key in this game, it's the rule if you want any hope of beating Meta Knight. And don't forget about Klaw.
