A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Zigsta]

Oops, I totally missed your post, Uncle. XD

I agree that Peach isn't that bad. +1 or +2.

 

[Cassius.]

I don't think that will happen to be honest with you Uncle.

We're all far too lazy/pressed with more important things. Like MrEh, I'm all for writing up a matchup but it takes so much effort and I just don't have time.

 

[B!squick]

Okay, first of all I like the way the ratios are presented on the front page. You can see at a glance what match-ups are manageable, which are bad, and which is the closest thing we have to a gift (Ivysaur). And it's the best I could do without the necessary software to make a fancy image.

Secondly, anyone who knows anything about Bowser also doesn't want to tell anybody anything about how to play him.

Third, should I go ahead and include the BBR version?

 

[Uncle]

Okay, first of all I like the way the ratios are presented on the front page. You can see at a glance what match-ups are manageable, which are bad, and which is the closest thing we have to a gift (Ivysaur). And it's the best I could do without the necessary software to make a fancy image.

Secondly, anyone who knows anything about Bowser also doesn't want to tell anybody anything about how to play him.

Third, should I go ahead and include the BBR version?

1. The way the ratios are presented is more than fine, but some of them are outdated, like I said. Also, almost everything below the ratios is a mess.

2. That's a hard nut to crack, but if a few Bowsers start discussing again, others will be inclined to chime in. All it takes is a few people taking the first step forward, which is a pretty big problem for us.

3. Sure.

 

[Cassius.]

i mean we've already discussed virtually every character and nothing big or pressing has changed for bowser at all matchup wise. lol

 

[Uncle]

Hm? Flayl told me that there was still a lot of MU work to be done.

Whether we have it (the MU info) all or not, it should be organized, summarized, and neatly presented on the front page, in the end. The new grab release thread looks great, so why can't the front page of the MU thread look great too?

 

[Flayl]

There are definitely lots of matchups where even simple tips would help.

And I don't mean obvious stuff like "FTilt if they approach with an aerial"

We should go with these ratios IMO:
http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=12270424&postcount=21

 

[CaLibUr_1337]

I think if things are done in little steps we'll have something nice to look at in this thread. I agree with uncle, the front page is messy.

I think links to previous discussions and having all the correct ratios up is what we need for the time being.

 

[Cassius.]

uh oh double post. glitchhhh

 

[Cassius.]

well i had this writeup on aib from a long time ago, so it's probably extremely inaccurate but w/e

ignore the ratios, i don't feel like changing them, i probably feel different about some MUs now

Matchups (Including Ratios IMO)
Ratios read as “Bowser:Opponent”

Overview: Bowser has 40:60s across the board, especially on the higher end of the tiers, and a random disadvantage vs Yoshi at the end. The key point is that they are indeed 40:60s. Not in Bowser’s advantage, but they are certainly manageable, and some of them are far from unbearable.

MK [30-70]: If the Metaknight is half smart, he’ll realize nado is a ***** to get through when you’re in the air. The metaknight player should be abusing nado like hell when you’re in the air, especially if you run out of jumps. However, if that does happen, be sure to space Nair/Klaw/Bowser Bomb somewhat perfectly break through Nado. For God’s sake, don’t try to fight MK in the air…it won’t help. DI down and away when MK does dthrow, there’s absolutely no benefit from DI’ing up or in any other direction. When grounded, up-b beats nado, and FTilt beats nado at an early start.

In this MU it’s pretty crucial to understand when to use what move. Chances are Bowser won’t be chilling with the lead, so you’ll be putting in work. Learn how far which moves go, and in what situation. For example, if an MK is abusing downsmash, a dash klaw or iDA will reach him; don’t even bother trying for jab/ftilt or anything.

Grabs are pretty important too. If you’re struggling with a kill, gr > dtilt is a legitimate followup and can net early kills at around 95+% around the edges. If you’re not by the edge, you can air release cg him to the ledges. If you’re on BF your best bet would probably be to just ground release, unless the air release distance goes through the platforms and leads you to the center. If grab released at the edge, a gr > offstage klaw can be timed most of the time to abuse grab frames (aka shuttle loop/nair will damage but klaw will break through)

When you’re offstage…oh my God. Just don’t. MK shouldn’t fear clinching that stock and getting that gimp, because he has 5-6 jumps vs your second and your below average up-b. see the problem?

Snake [40:60]: Don’t fear grenades at all. If you’re free, just instant throw them back. If not, just walk on through. It’s kinda important to learn the snake counter of counting up in your head. I mean, it becomes tedious after a while, but you can keep track of grenades that way, and if you can multitask it becomes even easier. Snake is cooking grenades? Klaw, he can’t do anything. Fire is cool, but don’t overdo it because Snake can DI into you and Bair you. You can trick him if you want and stop the fire if you see him moving towards you, and then grab him out of his lag or whatever. You can klawhop over mines, so if you run out of jumps, don’t worry. UpSmash’s jump goes higher than Snake’s C4 explosion. If f/utilt is ps'd, psc into a jab or upb

Snake’s weak point is obviously the air, so try to get him up there as often as possible, which is simple, especially via grab releases and stuff.

As Bowser, you’re really easy to read off of DThrows, so be careful to not get grabbed too much. Your roll is terrible, and you’ll be adding on over 10% everytime he dthrows you.

Diddy [35:65]: klawhopping over bananas is possible, aerial klaw also has ghost frames so zgrabbing a thrown banana or a banana that is lying there is possible during the klaw animation, klawhopped aerials can catch bananas, including klawhopped airdodge the banana lock is stupidly difficult (or maybe im dumb). Diddy’s fliphop can be pivot grabbed, so don’t worry about that. If a banana bounces off of your shield, you can z-grab it or Fair to grab it. Keep track of all the bananas and you should be fine. I personally don’t think the MU is any worse than 35:65 because with a bit of smart playing you can still put up a decent fight. It’s nowhere near as bad as Ice Climbers.

Wario [40:60/35:65]: pivot grab stuff. pay attention to the amount of jumps he has so you can air release regrab him and be a douche. dthrow sucks. You have a lot of options out of a grab release, including a grab release infinite, so if you do happen to get a grab, make the most of it because the Wario player certainly will with his down throw. REMEMBER, Wario’s second jump, up-b, and bike jump don’t snap to the ledge, so if you can gauge the distance between him and the ledge and come to the conclusion that he will be over the ledge, you can sneak in a DTilt, downward FTilt, grab or FSmash for a nasty kill.

The good news is, when B gets a grab, he beats the **** out of Wario, but the problem is, Wario is ridiculously difficult to grab sometimes. Sometimes you have to let certain moves go because he can just weave in and out and poke your shield or come down with a bite attack. Speaking of bite, he has a move that gives the middle finger to shields, and B is all about shields. So don’t shield camp that much.

G&W [40:60]: ftilt trades with bair, up-b > dair all of the time. SDI is crucial in this mu because you can escape Bair a lot earlier if your SDI is top notch. Grab wise, you can air release into Fair and aerial klaw, so be sure to remember that if you’re struggling for a kill.

PREDICT THE ****ING LANDINGS OF G&W AND YOU WIN THIS MU. SO SERIOUS.

Falco [40:60]: I personally like to play close to the ledge until I reach around 50% damage, because the closer you get to Falco’s end, the more throws he gets. So for the first half of the stock, let Falco do what he wants, but avoid getting grabbed. If you do, and you’re near the ledge, you should have nothing to worry about. Remember that SDI’ing to the stage gets rid of the opportunity for a dthrow -> spike. Fortress also beats and sometimes trades with phantasm, it depends on what frame you get him at. If Falco ends up getting grabbed, air release him to the edges of the stage and work magical gimps. Killing, as usual, will probably be relied off of grab releases which is somewhat problematic, but if you get the grab, get ‘er done. DTilt is a monster. You can also pivot grab Falco out of the grab release, so if you have that timing down, go for it.

Marth [45:55]: up angled forward tilt. Seriously. Marth isn’t anything to worry about IMO. Reason being is that you can get away with so many things against him. For example, Bowser’s dumb yet godlike FSmash outranges Marth’s Fair, FSmash, and Grab, simply due to his drawback animation. I’m not saying to recklessly use FSmash on a marth, but it’s just dumb things like that which kinda take the seriousness out of this. Granted, Dancing Blade is annoying, but you can SDI it if you want…if you’re shielding it, keep it up and just react as soon as the Marth is done. There’s enough lag on the fourth forward and down-slash, so if the marth goes for the full db you can grab/dashgrab/jab/ftilt/klaw, depending on the distance. Marth does have a pretty intense pressure game though, especially when Bowser’s on the ledge, and that can’t be overlooked. A Marth can keep Bowser caged in at the ledge, and can manipulate his movements because Bowser’s movements are slow as hell and are even slower past 100%. On the flipside, marth’s ledge options are kinda linear as well…and Bowser has a friend in bair. It has ******** range, and is a good frame trapper and early killer off of the ledge as well. And a good gimper.

FTilt also cancels out Marth’s FSmash if used in a simultaneous fashion. Go figure.

Ice Climbers [20:80]: a ridiculous MU, and i'd probably give up using bowser against them, but if you're using bowser, stay at the ledge at all times. You have to be ridiculously careful with your usage of moves, because ic’s can grab you out of any lag that you have. So, use UpB sparingly, and even FTilt, because if that’s powershielded, they can grab you via your extended arm. When you fortress, be sure to drive straight to the ledge, regardless of if you hit them or not. It’ll be difficult to klaw one of them if both are present because the player can use the spare climber and fsmash you.

Olimar [35:65/40:60]: a complete pain in the *** and I abhor this matchup, but some small things. You can air release olimar into an aerial klaw (has to be frame perfect though -_-). Not only is it free damage via pummels that refresh the klaw, but it also sets up for bowsercides, or just getting him offstage. The only problem is, when will you ever grab olimar? Easy. Predict his landings—if he nairs looking for the upsmash, just up-b oos, or pivot grab oos or something, just shield the nair. Olimar’s pikmin throw is annoying, but I wouldn’t worry about them latching onto you. Nair doesn’t work though..i only have success with fair and fortress.

I think Bowser’s FSmash outranges Olimar’s grab with the purple pikmin, im not sure.

Pikachu [35:65…im not that sure]: Pikachu’s FThrow is annoying. It can chain that on you up until 60something…I would say try not to get grabbed by Pikachu, but that’s kinda obvious. The Pikachu will FThrow you to the ledge, and then either upsmash or nair or something like that. The main problem in this mu is the thunder jolting, and the bull**** Pikachu can pull off against Bowser while off of the ledge (edgeguarding). Pikachu has a much better recovery than Bowser, and doesn’t fear going low or far to ensure that Bowser won’t return to the ledge. TJolts are its only means of camping, and it’s not that good. Annoying, but can be jabbed/ftilted/powershielded if anything.

A thing to note about Bowser’s grab release, is that if you’re going for the klaw, remember that you have to dash slightly. It’s still possible, just keep that in mind.

Dedede [40:60 w/o inf., 20:80 w/]: the ratios are kinda obvious…Dedede isn’t too difficult without the infinite, but with it, it’s just hell. You should be abusing klaw in this matchup and nothing else. I’m completely serious. If you get a grab, just chaingrab him and get him offstage. Dedede’s kinda linear and simple offstage, just get a few good hits and capitalize on his recovery. Bair is your friend, again. UAir is a good frame trapper here as well. Don’t fear his inhale because you can klaw through it. Powershield Waddle Dees.

Note: Bowser’s FSmash outranges D3’s grab and ftilt.

I did a big *** writeup on this, so there's no need to repeat myself.

Lucario [45:55]: Fair strings are annoying, Aura camping is meh…jabs go through baby aura spheres, but nothing else, so be careful not to jab somewhat/fully charged spheres. Don’t fear DAir above you, just UpSmash during his break. Bowser’s shell stretches out far enough that you can get him when he’s trying to slyly poke your head with DAir. Lucario is another one of those characters that doesn’t really care about going low or far. His recovery may not be the best, be he certainly can gimp you with fair/dair strings and other bull****. Lucario’s FSmash has VERY deceptive range, but it’s laggy as hell. iDA can reach Lucario before the FSmash lag ends if the FSmash isn’t tippered. So yes, it is possible to just walk and shield if you’re expecting the FSmash, and then dash attack. B personally shouldn’t try too hard with edgeguarding Lucario, but certainly wouldn’t miss the opportunity to manipulate his recovery and get him onstage and punish his lag.

ZSS [40:60]: the ratio is kinda negotiable, kingkong thinks Bowser goes 45:55 with ZSS, and I can kinda see why, but not really. Item pieces aren’t that big of a deal. Treat them like Diddy Kong's bananas; keep in mind that you can klaw right above them and just hold the l/r/z button and you'll grab them upon landing. I'm not sure if instant throwing is an option though.

MrEh mentioned just going up to her face and jabbing her shield because she can't really do too much against shield pressure. Zamuses shouldn't be grabbing too much unless you're shield happy as a Bowser, but if the grab is missed, there's more than enough time to FSmash her or do something extremely damaging. The Paralyzer beam can easily be shielded, but be careful of ZSS' followups on that when your shield is up. ZSS' side b is a pain as well. I personally just like to stay a certain range away from her all throughout the match, especially once the item pieces are done/thrown away. That way, if she goes to space her Side B, you won't have to worry about it that much and can rush in when necessary.

some of them are probably rushed/a bit shorthanded (example, B is for Bowser most of the time) but whatever. it's what i had written up from a while ago. i have a few skype chats with zigsta and i too that i'll probably post later too or something

 

[Fuujin]

Lucario’s FSmash has VERY deceptive range, but it’s laggy as hell

.......Wat

 

[Cassius.]

what do you mean what. read the next sentence

 

[Flayl]

Limit, how are you supposed to SDI Marth's Dancing Blade?

Nice tips overall, even though some were a bit too broad.

 

[Cassius.]

just tell me which ones are broad and I can put more input into them I guess

to answer your question, if marth is db'ing say, towards the left of the stage, you could SDI out and away, as in SDI left/up, it's what I usually try to do. You can get out of it before the 4th hit happens.

idk if this works because Bowser may be too big for this, but you can even SDI behind marth i think. idk bowser's a huge character anyway :/

 

[B!squick]

Actually it should depend on how close he is. If he starts it right in your face you're probably better off DIing towards him and up to get behind him.

 

[Uncle]

This is a very good step forward.

Definitely post those skype chats, and we'll see if the rest of us can add any input.

 

[Dumbfire]

idk if this works because Bowser may be too big for this, but you can even SDI behind marth i think. idk bowser's a huge character anyway :/

I've done it, but the Marth started like right in front of me.

 

[Cassius.]

this most likely consists of MU stuff and playstyle discussions more or less. take what you will i guess. i think we talked about diddy and general bowser stuff the most...lol so much for reliable skype chats. w/e

[3/29/2011 11:02:34 PM] Ali Gurley: im surprised at all the sudden small popularity the boards have been getting..
[3/29/2011 11:02:52 PM] Chris Hewitt: Emphasis on the small, haha
[3/29/2011 11:03:03 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah
[3/29/2011 11:03:27 PM] Ali Gurley: just random questions popping up with people like choice i guess. i feel like their desire to learn bowser will go away after a while though
[3/29/2011 11:03:33 PM] Ali Gurley: only the dedicated really stay
[3/29/2011 11:03:39 PM] Chris Hewitt: Yeah, sadly
[3/29/2011 11:03:53 PM] Ali Gurley: bowser's really hard to stay faithful to. i mean as much as i love the command grab, everything else is...weird

[3/29/2011 11:13:42 PM] Ali Gurley: and i also was partially the reason why he started using bowser lol
[3/29/2011 11:13:49 PM] Ali Gurley: so it's like my brother is just going off the end
[3/29/2011 11:13:50 PM] Chris Hewitt: Really?
[3/29/2011 11:13:58 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah. i taught him the baby steps i guess
[3/29/2011 11:14:00 PM] Ali Gurley: and then vex kidnapped him
[3/29/2011 11:14:02 PM] Ali Gurley: ..lol
[3/29/2011 11:14:04 PM] Chris Hewitt: Haha
[3/29/2011 11:14:12 PM] Ali Gurley: i met him on aib when he mained peach
[3/29/2011 11:14:20 PM] Chris Hewitt: Dang
[3/29/2011 11:14:27 PM] Chris Hewitt: That's a serious change there, haha
[3/29/2011 11:14:35 PM] Ali Gurley: i mean usually when i meet or speak to people who just ask about bowser i just tell them that if you know how to space klaw you're fine
[3/29/2011 11:14:42 PM] Ali Gurley: which is true to an extent..i guess lol
[3/29/2011 11:14:49 PM] Chris Hewitt: Oh hey
[3/29/2011 11:14:57 PM] Chris Hewitt: Have you been keeping up with Ixis's videos?
[3/29/2011 11:15:14 PM] Ali Gurley: i didnt know he had anything new..lol
[3/29/2011 11:15:24 PM] Chris Hewitt: Just a bit
[3/29/2011 11:15:31 PM] Chris Hewitt: Another set vs. Hoe4u is his newest
[3/29/2011 11:15:37 PM] Ali Gurley: i havent heard from him in the longest time...really

[3/29/2011 11:20:15 PM] Ali Gurley: and to be honest with you i dont blame kingkong for moving. sometimes the character just becomes dreadfully boring. i mean if i wasnt so inclined to use bowser, i'd probably main lucario or something.
[3/29/2011 11:20:17 PM] Chris Hewitt: Before I mained Bowser
[3/29/2011 11:20:17 PM] Ali Gurley: oh and yeah
[3/29/2011 11:20:39 PM] Chris Hewitt: I've been working every few days or so on my movement
[3/29/2011 11:20:57 PM] Chris Hewitt: I feel that and GRs are the weakest part of my game right now since I haven't had a Wii to practice on in a while
[3/29/2011 11:21:40 PM] Chris Hewitt: I've also got a friend who comes over a few times a week and fires projectiles at me for an hour straight so I memorize the timing of jab/ftilt canceling them
[3/29/2011 11:22:08 PM] Ali Gurley: you need to memorize timing?
[3/29/2011 11:22:17 PM] Ali Gurley: i just..jab the thing whenever it comes near me lol
[3/29/2011 11:22:30 PM] Chris Hewitt: LOL
[3/29/2011 11:22:42 PM] Ali Gurley: instead of memorizing the timing of when to jab/tilt the thing, just know how fast the projectile itself moves
[3/29/2011 11:22:45 PM] Ali Gurley: or have good reflexes or something
[3/29/2011 11:22:52 PM] Chris Hewitt: I just like doing simple things over and over for muscle memory purposes
[3/29/2011 11:22:56 PM] Ali Gurley: oh, ight i see
[3/29/2011 11:22:57 PM] Chris Hewitt: It's like shooting a free throw to me
[3/29/2011 11:23:04 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah i get you
[3/29/2011 11:23:32 PM] Chris Hewitt: Been working on doing that to Olimar's fsmash instead of shielding
[3/29/2011 11:23:58 PM] Ali Gurley: can you really predict when olimar's going to fsmash you though? lol
[3/29/2011 11:24:10 PM] Ali Gurley: or is it all just for memory so if it happens your instinct isnt to shield
[3/29/2011 11:24:11 PM] Chris Hewitt: Sometimes I can now
[3/29/2011 11:24:14 PM] Ali Gurley: oh
[3/29/2011 11:24:25 PM] Chris Hewitt: Only because SkyPirate and I play a lot every week
[3/29/2011 11:24:40 PM] Chris Hewitt: I play the most vs Olimar and Marth here
[3/29/2011 11:25:14 PM] Ali Gurley: where im at i play the most vs..i dont even know
[3/29/2011 11:25:19 PM] Ali Gurley: i face lucarios often
[3/29/2011 11:25:27 PM] Ali Gurley: and mks and random pocket dededes
[3/29/2011 11:25:37 PM] Ali Gurley: i really like the diddy mu for some reason now though
[3/29/2011 11:25:38 PM] Ali Gurley: i dont know why
[3/29/2011 11:25:43 PM] Chris Hewitt: Really?
[3/29/2011 11:25:48 PM] Chris Hewitt: I have no Diddy exp
[3/29/2011 11:25:54 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah, i mean honestly all you have to do is just klaw over a banana.
[3/29/2011 11:26:03 PM] Chris Hewitt: The few ones I ever play are scrubs
[3/29/2011 11:26:20 PM] Ali Gurley: not only do you throw your best move out there that eats anything, but you also can just hold l/r/z and catch the banana in klaw's awkward aerial frames
[3/29/2011 11:26:23 PM] Ali Gurley: that you get when landing
[3/29/2011 11:26:33 PM] Ali Gurley: and you can instant throw it if youre that fast
[3/29/2011 11:26:41 PM] Ali Gurley: or you can klaw hop and pick up the banana, whatever you want
[3/29/2011 11:26:48 PM] Ali Gurley: you jus thave to be really patient with it
[3/29/2011 11:27:07 PM] Chris Hewitt: Hopefully Gnes comes this weekend
[3/29/2011 11:27:11 PM] Chris Hewitt: So I can play him
[3/29/2011 11:27:19 PM] Ali Gurley: because diddy can wreck you but as long as you just keep your cool you wont get killed that often
[3/29/2011 11:27:25 PM] Ali Gurley: FAirs lag can be klawed
[3/29/2011 11:27:35 PM] Ali Gurley: without banana setups you wont be seeing death too early
[3/29/2011 11:27:44 PM] Ali Gurley: and you can SDI fsmash and DI dsmash decently
[3/29/2011 11:27:52 PM] Chris Hewitt: Is banana > dtilt true?
[3/29/2011 11:28:02 PM] Ali Gurley: banana dtilt, or banana dsmash
[3/29/2011 11:28:16 PM] Chris Hewitt: Cool, thought it would
[3/29/2011 11:28:22 PM] Ali Gurley: no wait im asking you lol
[3/29/2011 11:28:27 PM] Ali Gurley: i thought you meant dsmash
[3/29/2011 11:28:35 PM] Chris Hewitt: Oh haha
[3/29/2011 11:28:38 PM] Chris Hewitt: I meant dtilt
[3/29/2011 11:28:45 PM] Ali Gurley: oh. you mean as bowser?
[3/29/2011 11:28:46 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah probably
[3/29/2011 11:28:48 PM] Chris Hewitt: Yeah
[3/29/2011 11:28:52 PM] Ali Gurley: OH THAT MAKES SO MUCH MORE SENSE NOW LMAO.
[3/29/2011 11:29:12 PM] Chris Hewitt: I was wondering why you were recommending downsmashing after a banana, bahaha
[3/29/2011 11:29:23 PM] Ali Gurley: well uh im not particularly sure but i know you can get a grab and then just FAir on the air release or dtilt/ftilt if anything
[3/29/2011 11:29:35 PM] Ali Gurley: also you can Pivot grab diddy's flip hop or w/e it is
[3/29/2011 11:29:46 PM] Chris Hewitt: Yeah, I know PX did that a lot to Gnes
[3/29/2011 11:29:59 PM] Ali Gurley: i mean it's still obviously 35-65 because of the massive amount of field control diddy can get
[3/29/2011 11:30:03 PM] Ali Gurley: but just dont get overwhelmed
[3/29/2011 11:30:16 PM] Ali Gurley: idk how the hell to deal with olimar but i know you have more experience than i do.
[3/29/2011 11:30:20 PM] Ali Gurley: i dont play dabuz that much. lol
[3/29/2011 11:30:30 PM] Ali Gurley: i think only olimar frustrates me as a mu
[3/29/2011 11:30:36 PM] Chris Hewitt: Olimar's really annoying
[3/29/2011 11:30:41 PM] Ali Gurley: i can deal with ics because i know i wouldnt be using bowser against them anyway lmao


[3/29/2011 11:31:15 PM] Ali Gurley: also bowser has a little dash he gets when he throws the banana
[3/29/2011 11:31:30 PM] Ali Gurley: when you're dashing and you throw the banana, after the throw animation bowser glides forward a bit
[3/29/2011 11:31:35 PM] Ali Gurley: which can actually set up for a dtilt
[3/29/2011 11:31:41 PM] Ali Gurley: or a grab if youre close enough
[3/29/2011 11:31:51 PM] Chris Hewitt: Interesting
[3/29/2011 11:31:58 PM] Ali Gurley: try it yourself when you get a chance. lol
[3/29/2011 11:32:00 PM] Chris Hewitt: But you gotta be dashing when you throw the banana, right?
[3/29/2011 11:32:14 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah. i mean you can just IDA the thing if you want
[3/29/2011 11:32:23 PM] Chris Hewitt: Cool, I will test that tomorrow after class
[3/29/2011 11:32:33 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah.
[3/29/2011 11:32:56 PM] Ali Gurley: the best is when the banana is there, and you can just sh/fh fair and grab the banana and if diddy comes at you you can just throw it
[3/29/2011 11:33:00 PM] Ali Gurley: which is why i fullhop a lot
[3/29/2011 11:33:11 PM] Ali Gurley: as opposed to short hopping because if you short hop your only real option is upb'ing
[3/29/2011 11:33:15 PM] Ali Gurley: and you'd have to shield camp
[3/29/2011 11:33:33 PM] Ali Gurley: and if a diddy throws a banana at your shield, just fair and grab it
[3/29/2011 11:33:37 PM] Ali Gurley: or zgrab it
[3/29/2011 11:33:41 PM] Chris Hewitt: I was wondering why you full hopped a lot vs Sai
[3/29/2011 11:33:43 PM] Ali Gurley: or airdodge, w/e you do.
[3/29/2011 11:33:45 PM] Ali Gurley: lol yeah
[3/29/2011 11:33:58 PM] Ali Gurley: i mean that was wifi so it was a bit different but the logic still applies
[3/29/2011 11:34:27 PM] Ali Gurley: also a good mindgame that i realized
[3/29/2011 11:34:32 PM] Ali Gurley: over at the smashfest i went to
[3/29/2011 11:34:47 PM] Ali Gurley: when i was playing zen, you can just air release falco off of w/e platform and just firebreath
[3/29/2011 11:35:06 PM] Ali Gurley: i mean that's common knowledge vs a falco to abuse fire when he's offstage
[3/29/2011 11:35:26 PM] Ali Gurley: but i like just reading the klaws because i can either catch him up front with the shklaw or from my back with the grounded klaw
[3/29/2011 11:35:43 PM] Ali Gurley: it covers a lot, and i guess my reflexes/reading is pretty good so i can catch falco most of the time
[3/29/2011 11:35:55 PM] Ali Gurley: usually if i whiff a klaw i cover it with either jab or shield
[3/29/2011 11:36:04 PM] Ali Gurley: ftilt isn't that reliable but you can get away with itg somtimes
[3/29/2011 11:36:05 PM] Ali Gurley: it sometimes*
[3/29/2011 11:36:12 PM] Chris Hewitt: I like nairing Falco offstage
[3/29/2011 11:36:19 PM] Ali Gurley: i havent tried that. does it work?
[3/29/2011 11:36:46 PM] Chris Hewitt: If you predict his side B, it sends him far enough away that he can't get back starting from like 60%
[3/29/2011 11:36:49 PM] Chris Hewitt: Did it once in tourney
[3/29/2011 11:36:53 PM] Ali Gurley: oh, about nair. you can nair diddy if he's going for the upb at whatever location. the hits will trade. wow really?
[3/29/2011 11:36:56 PM] Ali Gurley: do the hits trade?
[3/29/2011 11:37:01 PM] Chris Hewitt: Nope
[3/29/2011 11:37:05 PM] Ali Gurley: sick
[3/29/2011 11:37:08 PM] Chris Hewitt: Nair beats side B when timed right
[3/29/2011 11:37:13 PM] Chris Hewitt: It's kinda risky, though
[3/29/2011 11:37:21 PM] Chris Hewitt: Cuz if you mistime it, you get spiked, haha
[3/29/2011 11:37:29 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah, that's what i was worried about.
[3/29/2011 11:37:30 PM] Chris Hewitt: But Falcos never expect it

[3/29/2011 11:37:35 PM] Ali Gurley: the main thing i need to realize with bowser is
[3/29/2011 11:37:47 PM] Ali Gurley: i have the timing perfectly for grab releases, idk why i never go for them
[3/29/2011 11:37:59 PM] Chris Hewitt: Dang
[3/29/2011 11:38:00 PM] Ali Gurley: i was doing everything perfectly fine at the smashfest lol
[3/29/2011 11:38:02 PM] Chris Hewitt: Give me your timing
[3/29/2011 11:38:20 PM] Ali Gurley: i mean im not like the frame god or anything like that but i know what to do and when to do it
[3/29/2011 11:38:35 PM] Ali Gurley: also, sorry for moving from topic to topic but jab is really good
[3/29/2011 11:38:44 PM] Ali Gurley: i mean, it may seem kinda below average but it's a great gtfo move
[3/29/2011 11:39:01 PM] Ali Gurley: ixis likes to jab cancel alot, that's what he used to preach but the good 1-2 swipe is great on its own imo
[3/29/2011 11:39:03 PM] Chris Hewitt: Yeah
[3/29/2011 11:39:10 PM] Chris Hewitt: I use jab2 a lot vs Olimar
[3/29/2011 11:39:19 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah. speaking of jabs again
[3/29/2011 11:39:28 PM] Ali Gurley: vs light characters, jab -> grab is a good followup
[3/29/2011 11:39:36 PM] Ali Gurley: you know with lighties when you do jab1 it lifts them up
[3/29/2011 11:39:47 PM] Ali Gurley: so you can dash grab if youre fast enough, unless they DI out
[3/29/2011 11:40:00 PM] Ali Gurley: but i guess because i like to reset space a lot no one really expects the jab grab from me
[3/29/2011 11:40:12 PM] Ali Gurley: they just know that i'll just swipe them off i guess


[3/30/2011 1:43:27 AM] Ali Gurley: :] lol
[3/30/2011 1:43:40 AM] Chris Hewitt: Oh yeah
[3/30/2011 1:43:46 AM] Chris Hewitt: What do you think of ledgehopped dair?
[3/30/2011 1:43:53 AM] Chris Hewitt: Been playing with it
[3/30/2011 1:43:56 AM] Ali Gurley: useless. lol
[3/30/2011 1:44:00 AM] Ali Gurley: just ledgehop klaw.
[3/30/2011 1:44:18 AM] Ali Gurley: idk, im kinda dismissive of a lot of things if klaw is a better option. i should open my mind up more.
[3/30/2011 1:44:19 AM] Ali Gurley: lol
[3/30/2011 1:44:22 AM] Chris Hewitt: Haha, I did like 2 damage with it
[3/30/2011 1:44:25 AM] Chris Hewitt: dair I mean
[3/30/2011 1:44:39 AM] Ali Gurley: well i mean, realistically speaking, no one would be that close to the ledge, and even if they are
[3/30/2011 1:44:42 AM] Ali Gurley: they can SDI out of it
[3/30/2011 1:44:51 AM] Ali Gurley: wait for the lag and punish you hard for it
[3/30/2011 1:45:00 AM] Ali Gurley: it's not like DAir has nado properties


[3/30/2011 1:45:13 AM] Chris Hewitt: You ledgehop Firebreath often?
[3/30/2011 1:45:27 AM] Ali Gurley: um...yeah depends
[3/30/2011 1:45:49 AM] Ali Gurley: most of the time, if you notice i just jump a lot until the opponent catches on lol
[3/30/2011 1:45:55 AM] Ali Gurley: im kinda linear with the ledge options
[3/30/2011 1:46:00 AM] Ali Gurley: i mean off of the ledge
[3/30/2011 1:46:15 AM] Ali Gurley: i dont ledgehop a lot but if i do a klaw usually follows.
[3/30/2011 1:46:15 AM] Chris Hewitt: Yeah, I don't have the timing down on a lot of ledge options
[3/30/2011 1:46:26 AM] Chris Hewitt: I usually SD if I don't practice it a lot
[3/30/2011 1:46:53 AM] Chris Hewitt: So I usually plank a lot and mix up jumping then returning to the ledge with finally jumping back onstage
[3/30/2011 1:47:07 AM] Chris Hewitt: But I hate doing that because I hate being above people as Bowser in general
[3/30/2011 1:47:40 AM] Ali Gurley: wait, i forgot we have phiddlesticks and. uh
[3/30/2011 1:47:45 AM] Ali Gurley: if im like actually above bowser
[3/30/2011 1:47:49 AM] Ali Gurley: and someone's in the air with me
[3/30/2011 1:47:50 AM] Ali Gurley: then i dair
[3/30/2011 1:47:56 AM] Ali Gurley: if theyre grounded i just fish for the klaw
[3/30/2011 1:48:08 AM] Ali Gurley: and if i dont get anything...well, im probably on the ground. lol
[3/30/2011 1:48:11 AM] Ali Gurley: at that point
[3/30/2011 1:48:28 AM] Chris Hewitt: With you in the air? I find it easier for dair to be SDI'd if I do it on an aerial opponent.
[3/30/2011 1:49:06 AM] Ali Gurley: yeah but i mean, are we assuming the player actually thinks "damn i should really watch out for that dair" as opposed to watching out for klaw? lol

[4/10/2011 1:28:09 PM] Chris Hewitt: Yeah, Xyro said he lhates Wi-Fi but he used to use it just to get the physics of every character downpat
[4/10/2011 1:28:19 PM] Ali Gurley: yeah.
[4/10/2011 1:28:43 PM] Ali Gurley: it's why i may not be the perfect guy to come to for a certain mu advice wise, but i know what each character can and cant do
[4/10/2011 1:28:45 PM] Ali Gurley: and what bowser has to combat that
[4/10/2011 1:28:50 PM] Ali Gurley: i know the basics so i dont run in completely unprepared
[4/10/2011 1:29:27 PM] Ali Gurley: and plus you can get a feel for other characters too. you dont necessarily need to use bowser against the characters. if you play against one character with whoever, you find out what that character can do.
[4/10/2011 1:29:37 PM] Ali Gurley: if you know bowser well enough, you can just calculate i guess
[4/10/2011 1:29:47 PM] Ali Gurley: i guess it's theorycraft but not really if you know bowser's limitations


[4/10/2011 1:32:56 PM] Chris Hewitt: I'm really looking forward to your critiques of my vids <3
[4/10/2011 1:33:41 PM] Chris Hewitt: I ddi really well against Razer
[4/10/2011 1:34:04 PM] Ali Gurley: that's good
[4/10/2011 1:34:25 PM] Ali Gurley: snake is easy lol
[4/10/2011 1:34:32 PM] Chris Hewitt: Diddy is super gay though
[4/10/2011 1:34:38 PM] Ali Gurley: you just have to be patient
[4/10/2011 1:34:42 PM] Ali Gurley: and dont get overwhelmed
[4/10/2011 1:34:50 PM] Chris Hewitt: Granted, Gnes was pretty much my first good Diddy
[4/10/2011 1:34:58 PM] Ali Gurley: well, how did you do?
[4/10/2011 1:35:04 PM] Ali Gurley: really badly or what?
[4/10/2011 1:35:24 PM] Chris Hewitt: We mostly played Smashville, and most were 2 stocks
[4/10/2011 1:35:30 PM] Ali Gurley: damn..
[4/10/2011 1:35:34 PM] Chris Hewitt: But I got him down to this last stock the two times we played BF
[4/10/2011 1:35:38 PM] Chris Hewitt: And Yoshis
[4/10/2011 1:35:48 PM] Chris Hewitt: He alway molested me on SV
[4/10/2011 1:36:12 PM] Ali Gurley: well i mean on smahsville you
[4/10/2011 1:36:16 PM] Ali Gurley: can just camp on the platform
[4/10/2011 1:36:31 PM] Ali Gurley: and when you see a free banana or an open opportunity, get off and ALWAYS land with klaw
[4/10/2011 1:36:43 PM] Ali Gurley: idc what anyone else says, against diddy landing with klaw is the best thing you can do for yourself
[4/10/2011 1:36:49 PM] Ali Gurley: because if anything happens, you can either catch w/e that's being thrown at you
[4/10/2011 1:37:02 PM] Ali Gurley: or youll catch diddy if he's coming at you

what we said then is probably repeats of what i wrote earlier, and excuse me if any of it is a bit irrelevant

...yeah looking at this now it's not really that helpful...if only for like 2 characters lmao

 

[Uncle]

You're right about the lack of MU discussion in that post, but I saw some good & practical insight there. That can always be helpful, and I saw nothing I truly disagreed with.

 

[Cassius.]

meh whatever, i guess it's decent lol

/waste of space?

 

[Sky Pirate]

[3/29/2011 11:30:36 PM] Chris Hewitt: Olimar's really annoying

:<

One thing I noticed that he does, he'll delay the jab and wait for my reaction after slapping away the Pikmin or mix it up with some sort of approach.
It's kind of scary when I'm near a ledge, especially when it's a place like YI.

And Olimar's kind of weird to play against if you don't really have experience with him, Limit.
Zigsta's a good guy to talk with about the match-up, though. He's very patient and Texas is ****ing Olimar country.
Seriously, we have like... five Olimars. <_<;

EDIT - OH! And if he Jabs me at close range, he can either continue to Jab, grab, or Fsmash. Fsmash eats my shield or punishes my spotdodge HARD, Jab keeps pressure on while allowing him the option to Dsmash/Usmash/UpB/whatever if I roll behind him, and grab ignores my shield and forces me into a bad position.

 

[B!squick]

By the way, if anyone thinks they can do a better job with this thread, you're welcome to take it. I don't foresee any major changes happening, but I'm long since done trying to make them happen. If someone else thinks they can make it happen, have at.

-JayDeth, Master of the Drunken Boozer Style

 

[Flayl]

I might, but I have very limited patience when it comes to actual discussion with other boards. If the only thing I have to do is compile info and do summaries I can do it.

 

[Uncle]

By the way, if anyone thinks they can do a better job with this thread, you're welcome to take it. I don't foresee any major changes happening, but I'm long since done trying to make them happen. If someone else thinks they can make it happen, have at.

-JayDeth, Master of the Drunken Boozer Style

I would actually be interested in taking it off you, dude. I don't see any major changes happening either, but things could use elaboration and organization. I'm thinking about it........

 

[B!squick]

No offense Uncle, but if I had to choose I'd rather hand things over to Flayl if he wants it.

 

[Uncle]

None taken.

Flayl is a perfect choice.

I was just showing my interest. If he wants the job, then he is more deserving of it than I am.

 

[Flayl]

I don't actually want the extra work, so if you can prove you're capable of doing a good job you should definitely keep it.

And now, we need a discussion. Can I suggest Fox?

 

[Uncle]

Fox works.

I can write up stuff about this MU later today or tomorrow, but if anybody wants to start right now, go right ahead.

 

[Cassius.]

{Fox}
Ratio:{50:50/45:55}
Secondary:{Pikachu/Sheik?}
What to look out for: {DAir, Shine gimps, UTilt, USmash when approaching 120%}
How they will KO you: {Shine gimps, USmash, DSmash (at higher percents), BAir}
Best spacing zone: {FTilt/Klaw zone imo, Fox should just keep shooting so you have to get into his face.}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {Chaingrab + Klaw}
- For the KO: {FTilt}
Firebreath: {Use when possible, Fire is pretty useful}
Stages
- Strike: {FD?}
- Ban: {FD} I'm not really sure about Fox stages but I THINK Halberd is good too b/c of low ceilings but that's the same for us too...right...?
- Pick: {I'd personally run with YI or PS1}
Link to discussion: {...}

Alright, so Fox...uh, when the match is distanced, expect Fox to be shooting lasers until you approach. There's no real reason for him to come at you, even if you have the lead, because he can shoot and even it out. Laser's don't do any physical damage/hinder anything, so you have nothing to worry about. You're not facing Falco.

To deal with this, you can approach from the air and just go from there. If you feel like it.

When you do get to Fox, he can do a multitude of things. He can either FI to the other end of the stage and repeat the process, DAir, FAir, or reach out and grab you.

When dealing with DAir or FAir, it is IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPOOOOOOORRRRTANT that you SDI and get the **** out of there to minimize the damage you can receive and possibly punish the Fox.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I'll add more tomorrow, I have to go. I'm trying to model this similar to my D3/MK writeups. I know KingKong can add to this because he's played Guard/[NAKAT I think]. I've played LinkX and Rookie, that's really about it I guess...

 

[Uncle]

{Fox}
Ratio:{50:50/45:55} (I believe in 45:55/-1 myself.)
Secondary:{Pikachu/Sheik?} (Both of them are excellent, as are the Ice Climbers.)
What to look out for: {DAir, Shine gimps, UTilt, USmash when approaching 120%} (Also watch out for his Uair, it's a capable kill move while Bowser is airborne and damaged. In addition, auto-cancelled Fairs can be dangerous to Bowser's frame.)
How they will KO you: {Shine gimps, USmash, DSmash (at higher percents), BAir} (Add Uair to that list as well, a careless aerial Bowser could get KO'd easier than you think.)
Best spacing zone: {FTilt/Klaw zone imo, Fox should just keep shooting so you have to get into his face.} (You got that right. Bowser should always keep Fox within arm's length.)
Grab-Release
- For damage: {Chaingrab + Klaw} (A staple that all Bowsers should know.)
- For the KO: {FTilt} (Ditto.)
Firebreath: {Use when possible, Fire is pretty useful} (Definitely use it, but don't get too pyro-happy, because he has the reflector.)
Stages
- Strike: {FD?} (And Smashville as well. In general, Bowser doesn't want stages where Fox can comfortably shoot lasers at him.)
- Ban: {FD} I'm not really sure about Fox stages but I THINK Halberd is good too b/c of low ceilings but that's the same for us too...right...? (Halberd is a good Fox stage, but Bowser can also take advantage of the ceiling well and doesn't need to move too far to catch him. FD should be our primary ban.)
- Pick: {I'd personally run with YI or PS1} (Both of those work. I think Brinstar is solid as well.)
Link to discussion: {...}

Alright, so Fox...uh, when the match is distanced, expect Fox to be shooting lasers until you approach. There's no real reason for him to come at you, even if you have the lead, because he can shoot and even it out. Laser's don't do any physical damage/hinder anything, so you have nothing to worry about. You're not facing Falco.

To deal with this, you can approach from the air and just go from there. If you feel like it.

When you do get to Fox, he can do a multitude of things. He can either FI to the other end of the stage and repeat the process, DAir, FAir, or reach out and grab you.

When dealing with DAir or FAir, it is IMPORTANT IMPORTANT IMPOOOOOOORRRRTANT that you SDI and get the **** out of there to minimize the damage you can receive and possibly punish the Fox.

-----------------------------------------------------------
I'll add more tomorrow, I have to go. I'm trying to model this similar to my D3/MK writeups. I know KingKong can add to this because he's played Guard/[NAKAT I think]. I've played LinkX and Rookie, that's really about it I guess...

Everything Limit has said here is important to know, ESPECIALLY the part about SDI.

Basically, the objective of this MU is to catch that wild fox and swiftly put an end to his life. With our kill moves, nice reach of said kill moves, and his very light weight, that is more than possible. Nobody would ever say it will be easy, though, because good Foxes will use their amazing mobility to dance around you, pepper you with lasers, and jump you in a second whenever you make an unsafe decision.

Get within your close range, stay out of his, and mix it up to trap this space animal. Just remember that even when you're in striking distance, you need to be cautious. All Fox needs is one good opening to rack up a lot of damage on you, and his USmash needs no introduction when it comes to finishers. Killing Bowser before 130% is no small feat. It's a good thing we have our delicious OOS game to give us cover. Just because we're approaching 99.9% of the time in this MU, doesn't mean we should use less of it! Give him a grab or wall him off with the fortress whenever appropriate.

Either way, once you inflict knockback or get a grab on Fox, do whatever you can to follow it up. We don't need many hits to kill Fox, but we'll be hard-pressed to get those hits, so make those opportunities count. Offstage, be wary of his shine. This ain't Melee, but don't try anything stupid around it. Get those reads on his recovery with Fair/Bair, or a FSmash/Utilt if he lands on the stage. Oh, and don't forget about your trusty Uair. A good read with that against Fox is even more rewarding than it usually is.

Overall, this MU is a fairly well-matched, fast-paced game of cat-and-mouse. Both characters can punish each other hard with their respective strengths. Ultimately, I'd give Fox the slight advantage here, due to his reliable (but not powerful) method of forcing the approach.

45 (-1) : 55 (+1)

 

[Flayl]

I'm glad you both gave input, but to be perfectly honest it's not very helpful. You're not really giving advice on what to do or how to do so. The important part of matchup discussions is teaching the matchup, not trying to figure out who has the advantage.

As a quick example, telling someone to SDI a move isn't enough, you should also tell them what direction and what to do when they escape a move.

Also relying on FTilt isn't a very good idea, at least not when Bowser is at high %s. Fox can easily Dash -> USmash Bowser on block, he doesn't even need to power-shield it.

Give me some decent videos of Bowser against Fox and I'll write something up.

 

[Cassius.]

i didn't even finish the writeup but whatever

just look up kingkong vs guard or me vs linkx, i don't think there are any other videos of bowser vs fox besides those

or ixis vs crz if that exists

 

[NAKAT]

I played KingKong in bracket at VC8.

 

[Cassius.]

are there videos though, that's what flayl needs apparently

and yeah i'm not exactly the most educated person when it comes to fox, so i realized i probably shouldn't be doing that writeup, that's kinda why i stopped.

 

[Uncle]

You have a point there, Flayl. I'm also interested in going through vids and writing about what the Fox/Bowser should/should not be doing.

If you can show any video of you fighting KingKong, Nakat, that would be greatly appreciated. Any high-level example of the MU we can get is good.

 

[NAKAT]

I don't have a video, but I do know what I did to win and the such.

 

[Uncle]

Awww, it would have been cool to see you two go at it. Regardless, feel free to add in your input. Any good info/pointers/insights from the Fox side will be helpful.

 

[KingKong_ad]

TBH my video against guard is not that good both of us has done many mistakes that shouldnt have been done in that mu, but there is still some things that could be exploited I guess

 

[Uncle]

In other words, we don't really have any notable videos of the MU......

Insights from KingKong, Nakat, and any other Bowser/Fox with experience in the MU will have to do then. Post away. Maybe I'll write some more stuff, with it being centered more on advice/how to do things, like Flayl pointed out earlier.

I'm no expert on the MU, by any means, but I have played Duo (#3 in NC, our best Fox) on multiple occasions, so I know some stuff.

 

[Zigsta]

I've played MegaFox and Razer. Hate this MU.