CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
The input from you guys is great especially since I'm MM'ing a snake main this weekend. Wish me luck. I'll upload the vids here as well afterwards.
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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread
- Thread starter Uncle
- Start date
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Good luck with that MM, man. Everyone else has said nearly everything that needed to be said. I'll just add a few personal thoughts.
This one of those matchups where I think our Bair really shines. In general, you'll want to edgeguard an offstage Snake with Fair/Bair often. We may not have a reliable or unique way to spike/gimp him, but we can really damage/KO him. In fact, a well-placed offstage aerial (or uair anywhere) is pretty much the only way to KO him earlier than what he usually lives up to. Just don't get too greedy, obviously. Our recovery isn't safe enough to get TOO crazy with offstage chase shenanigans.
Oh yeah, and don't forget to make him pay with our own powerful utilt when you're below him on the ground. We may not have his utilt's hitbox, but we match well with it in power. We all know Snake deserves it.
This one of those matchups where I think our Bair really shines. In general, you'll want to edgeguard an offstage Snake with Fair/Bair often. We may not have a reliable or unique way to spike/gimp him, but we can really damage/KO him. In fact, a well-placed offstage aerial (or uair anywhere) is pretty much the only way to KO him earlier than what he usually lives up to. Just don't get too greedy, obviously. Our recovery isn't safe enough to get TOO crazy with offstage chase shenanigans.
Oh yeah, and don't forget to make him pay with our own powerful utilt when you're below him on the ground. We may not have his utilt's hitbox, but we match well with it in power. We all know Snake deserves it.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
I also like how the title says "the COMPLETE bowser matchup guide".
I'll be looking forward to the MM, moar bowser vids.
I'll be looking forward to the MM, moar bowser vids.
B!squick
Smash Master
It was complete so I figured I'd add the tag for it. *shrug* Sadly, there wasn't enough room to keep "slightly improved".
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
How about just put in improved?
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Our UTilt is powerful, but it won't kill him as early/easily as he can with his own UTilt.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Yeah, I suppose I'm overselling our utilt a bit. I just love that move.
B!squick
Smash Master
I like UTilt alot, too. I use it way more than USmash, that's for sure. All the time I watch Bowser vids and think, well, if he went UTilt instead of USmash, he'd have killed him.
Especially when people land on the platform above them. Your choice is a sweeping arc that covers the whole platform or a straight up poke that can miss on occasion.
???
Especially when people land on the platform above them. Your choice is a sweeping arc that covers the whole platform or a straight up poke that can miss on occasion.
???
B!squick
Smash Master
Don't ruin the discussion by not discussing now people! We've come this far on fumes, let's keep it going. I don't want to have to do plan B.
Okay, is the DeDeDe or even Ice Climbers match-up as bad as we have listed?
Okay, is the DeDeDe or even Ice Climbers match-up as bad as we have listed?
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
I agree with you limit. Bowser vs DDD isn't as much of a hill climb as most people say. KH and Fair/F-tilt waddle dees. We can also Ground release Chaingrab against him as well so he should think twice about Spamming Dash grab lolol
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
Yea but punching them is more satisfying 
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Vs. DDD with only the normal chaingrab allowed: 40/60
Vs. DDD with infinite or small-step chaingrabs allowed: LOL/NO
Basically, unless the tournament has a ridiculous ruleset, Bowser can win. The fact that we have an aerial grab and a chaingrab of our own really helps.
As for ICs, I don't have Bowser exp. in that matchup, but 25/75 looks a little crazy. Sure, they win, but that badly?
Vs. DDD with infinite or small-step chaingrabs allowed: LOL/NO
Basically, unless the tournament has a ridiculous ruleset, Bowser can win. The fact that we have an aerial grab and a chaingrab of our own really helps.
As for ICs, I don't have Bowser exp. in that matchup, but 25/75 looks a little crazy. Sure, they win, but that badly?
B!squick
Smash Master
For the sake of argument, let's say that infinites are allowed as per the BBR's Official We Don't Really Care One Way Or The Other If You Use This Or Not Rule Set.
As for the Ice Climbers, right off the bat we can't grab release 2 characters at once and even Klaw loses alot of usefulness considering that Bowser can be hit out of it mid flight. What we're left with is basically all of Bowser's problems with almost no benefits against a character(s) with better spacing tools and damage racking abilities through chaining throws or just straight up juggling AND our lack of a reliable way to separate them sans a lucky Klaw and yes, you have the makings of a very poor match-up.
You're probably better off just SDing 3 times the first match and getting straight to the counter picking without letting your opponent get feel of how you play.
As for the Ice Climbers, right off the bat we can't grab release 2 characters at once and even Klaw loses alot of usefulness considering that Bowser can be hit out of it mid flight. What we're left with is basically all of Bowser's problems with almost no benefits against a character(s) with better spacing tools and damage racking abilities through chaining throws or just straight up juggling AND our lack of a reliable way to separate them sans a lucky Klaw and yes, you have the makings of a very poor match-up.
You're probably better off just SDing 3 times the first match and getting straight to the counter picking without letting your opponent get feel of how you play.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
YES. Ice Climbers is that bad. If you Klaw one of them, the other can just jab/fsmash you before you even go flying.
It's ridiculously easy to CG Bowser, and blizzard is a pain in the ***. The only remotely decent thing you can do is dash attack under it or something.
It's ridiculously easy to CG Bowser, and blizzard is a pain in the ***. The only remotely decent thing you can do is dash attack under it or something.
Uncle
Novus Ordo Seclorum
Ha, good thing I've never used Bowser against them then, huh? I'm just looking for reasoning behind that crazy-looking ratio from people who know, and that'll do. I wonder what the IC boards think, since they don't have an entry on Bowser yet.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I played against Hylian's ICs once as Bowser back when he lived in Austin. Granted, Bowser wasn't my main then, but it's a completely garbage MU.
Like Limit said, Blizzard approaches are difficult for Bowser to get around, and our Klaw/grab game is virtually worthless unless they're separated.
It's worth noting, though, that there aren't character who are "easier" to CG, per se. Bowser just lacks quick, effective means of separating the ICs and is a large target, which makes him easy to get grabbed by ICs. It's also easy for Bowser to get grabbed > footstool > Ice Block > grabbed until you lose the stock.
Like Limit said, Blizzard approaches are difficult for Bowser to get around, and our Klaw/grab game is virtually worthless unless they're separated.
It's worth noting, though, that there aren't character who are "easier" to CG, per se. Bowser just lacks quick, effective means of separating the ICs and is a large target, which makes him easy to get grabbed by ICs. It's also easy for Bowser to get grabbed > footstool > Ice Block > grabbed until you lose the stock.
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
I'm pretty sure I've had it done to be before. I know for a fact, though, that it's happened to me as Charizard.
Phiddlesticks
Smash Lord
bowser can be hobbled
Hobobloke
Atemon Game
I just don't play Bowser when I come up against IC's. But I'm almost certain he can be hobbled.
Trouble King
Smash Apprentice
Lol. I just spam space with firebreath (short bursts obviously) and jabs. I know that's easier said than done against ICs who train to get close enough to grab, but the best thing I can say to do is abuse Bowser's range, and never stay in one spot. It's a terrible MU for sure, but it's not impossible. You just have to be patient. The way I see it, Bowser has an answer for ALL of their moves, that is of course, unless they manage to grab you.
I think alot of ICs will, after being barraged by your Jabs, will try to roll behind you for the grab. So, Up-B/D-smash. If you believe they're gonna SHB approach you, angle short bursts of fire up to interupt them, then retreat back, repeat if necessary. If any of you play Falco alot, I'm pretty sure you can Powershield their ice blocks. Just don't forget to powershield the second one too, to avoid as much shield stun as possible.
As much as our grabs and klaws secure matches for us, we should really fall back on our jab and fire game in this MU. F-tilt IMO is risky, because experienced players can powershield it and punish the lag, even though it's minute. Jabs have saved me in this matchup, as well as firebursts. If you have any questions, ask away. Unfortunately, I have no way of uploading my vids. =/ Even so, I don't have many replays of IC matches, or infinite replays.
Meh, i know I'm not active enough here without internet access of my own. But I will try to get some of my own input in.
I think alot of ICs will, after being barraged by your Jabs, will try to roll behind you for the grab. So, Up-B/D-smash. If you believe they're gonna SHB approach you, angle short bursts of fire up to interupt them, then retreat back, repeat if necessary. If any of you play Falco alot, I'm pretty sure you can Powershield their ice blocks. Just don't forget to powershield the second one too, to avoid as much shield stun as possible.
As much as our grabs and klaws secure matches for us, we should really fall back on our jab and fire game in this MU. F-tilt IMO is risky, because experienced players can powershield it and punish the lag, even though it's minute. Jabs have saved me in this matchup, as well as firebursts. If you have any questions, ask away. Unfortunately, I have no way of uploading my vids. =/ Even so, I don't have many replays of IC matches, or infinite replays.
Meh, i know I'm not active enough here without internet access of my own. But I will try to get some of my own input in.
B!squick
Smash Master
First new post in almost a month for this thread on the subject our character discussions themselves. Why can't we do them? It's not a lack of any Bowser players that aren't competent or are at least knowledgeable about the game. Is it we lack experience with some of the lesser played characters? Fair enough, but why have we only really finished Meta Knight? And even with MK, we never got around to making a real summery, just a vague link to the "discussion".
Or am I just bad at running this thread? Be honest.
Or am I just bad at running this thread? Be honest.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
You're not bad, it's just us.
The typical Bowser main has extremely time-consuming obligations, and things such as matchup discussions are just easily forgotten. lol
If I had motivation/someone to write this for, I'd probably try to write more things, but I mean, when was the last time you heard "I'm an aspiring Bowser main"?
...exactly. It's only us, and I'm sure all of us already know the MUs -_- if someone posted here and told me they were actually interested in Bowser's matchups and would like to see in-depth posts, and if I had enough free time to do so, I would do it.
The typical Bowser main has extremely time-consuming obligations, and things such as matchup discussions are just easily forgotten. lol
If I had motivation/someone to write this for, I'd probably try to write more things, but I mean, when was the last time you heard "I'm an aspiring Bowser main"?
...exactly. It's only us, and I'm sure all of us already know the MUs -_- if someone posted here and told me they were actually interested in Bowser's matchups and would like to see in-depth posts, and if I had enough free time to do so, I would do it.
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
I am one of those people.
CaLibUr_1337
Smash Lord
I would re-do Metaknight (especially since there are about 3 different ratios for that matchup lol), SNAKE!!! and falco since they were the most complete out of all the discussions. Then I would do match ups that are quite difficult but still winnable if you have extreme patience and reading ability, (Diddy Kong, Samus and Olimar come to mind in particular.
I'm willing to help you out by grabbing info from all over this thread and email it to you or something to help you not repeat information that has already been said as much. (Although I doubt every different person on here has said the exact same thing about a matchup.)
I'm on holidays starting from the 22nd so I can do it then over 2 weeks. (I go back to work on the 5th next year)
I'm willing to help you out by grabbing info from all over this thread and email it to you or something to help you not repeat information that has already been said as much. (Although I doubt every different person on here has said the exact same thing about a matchup.)
I'm on holidays starting from the 22nd so I can do it then over 2 weeks. (I go back to work on the 5th next year)
Fuujin
Smash Champion
Yes, us Bowser mains have to stick together in times like these.
I say we do Olimar.
I say we do Olimar.
KillerJawz
...
- Joined
- Mar 28, 2008
- Messages
- 4,285
I'll do that writeup :3.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
I can do MK, Snake, Diddy, Falco, Marth <--there are people who could probably do better writeups for those four than me, Dedede, Lucario, TL, Donkey Kong, Ike, Mario, Link, Captain Falcon, Ganondorf and ZSS, with ZSS being kinda shaky but it'd be done.
aka those are the characters I've played a lot against and can do/ask some of the people I played about certain aspects.
When I do MU writeups I do it all from Bowser's POV, so I don't really address both sides that much. Although I think that's the point of a MU writeup in the Bowser sub-section...lmao I'm so off right now. =__=
I forget some of the damn characters in this game.
It doesn't matter if someone's said one thing already, if I have it here and they've said it before, well...then you know. It'll be up there, lol.
aka those are the characters I've played a lot against and can do/ask some of the people I played about certain aspects.
When I do MU writeups I do it all from Bowser's POV, so I don't really address both sides that much. Although I think that's the point of a MU writeup in the Bowser sub-section...lmao I'm so off right now. =__=
I forget some of the damn characters in this game.
It doesn't matter if someone's said one thing already, if I have it here and they've said it before, well...then you know. It'll be up there, lol.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Yo Jay, you can love me now.
{King Dedede}
Ratio:{40:60 w/o infinite, 20:80 with it}
Secondary:{Metaknight/Falco?}
What to look out for: {DThrow, BAir, Waddle Dee camping if you don't approach, FTilt, maybe DAir}
How they will KO you: {DTilt/DSmash/USmash all out of DThrow, gimping is possible with BAir, UTilt}
Best spacing zone: {Aerial Klaw range is the best obviously. Resort to FTilt if you have to, but just don't be within his grab range for too long.}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {Chaingrab + Klaw}
- For the KO: {DTilt, FAir}
Firebreath: {Use sparingly for mixups, if you do catch him in firebreath, go for it I guess}
Stages
- Strike: {FD, Lylat/PS1}
- Ban: {FD, Rainbow Cruise, Castle Siege/Delfino} <--I'm not sure how many stages I can list to ban so I just put all the big Dedede stages.
- Pick: {Battlefield, SV?}
Link to discussion: {...hi Jay}
Right, so Dedede. I mean, most of us Bowser players have heard the common "just pick Dedede and you win" statement, which is sorta true in its own right, when there are no rules involved. With no rules at all, you're looking at a character that can deal 70%+ damage off of one grab, or better yet, one mistake from us. One grab leads to a down-throw, which leads to one small step, which repeats itself until you reach the ledge. Not to mention that Dedede can also Down-Smash Bowser out of his Down-Throw for a kill (thank God Vex showed me this), DTilt us offstage and work the gimp magic, AND thanks to recent discovery, pivot grab us and continue the bull****, and USmash us for the kill.
Pret-ty damn daunting if you look at it like that. Certainly a 20-80 MU, the risks are just too high. I wouldn't use Bowser against him unless I was feeling ballsy. Thankfully, that's never really the case. Or for me, it isn't. Where I'm at [NY], Dededes are limited to only regrabbing if they've dashed, which reduces the number of possible grabs off of the CG.
Approach-wise, Dedede doesn't really have to do much of anything. Bowser doesn't have a projectile unfortunately, and Dedede has one. It's not anything like Falco's laser or Snake's grenades, but it's better than nothing. The Waddle Dee toss can be ps'd pretty easily, but the little things themselves are pretty irritating. The waddle dee, aka the one that only jumps around isn't really much to fret over, but the waddle doo, which shoots electric beams is annoying. If you leave either one of those two hanging around, you risk them becoming obstacles seconds down the road, or them being of greater use to Dedede, which is what you don't want. So if you have the spare time [lol] just give them a jab or a tilt or something to knock them out. I'm sure it refreshes your moves anyway. One of the other alternatives is the Gordo, which rarely comes out, but with some luck will probably be a real pain in the ***. It's basically invincible, does a lot of damage, has crazy knockback and takes a chunk out of your shield if you do happen to see it coming. It's also pretty slow so if you're grounded, you can avoid it. Its trajectory is really awkward, I can't really explain it. If you're in the air, for Christ's sake, dodge the thing if you can. If not, you'll probably die if you're at kill %s.
So yeah, Dedede has the tool to force Bowser to approach. The typical Dedede probably will probably understand this, and keep his cool knowing we'll have to move eventually. Patient D3's are the worst ones. So what now? Bowser's approaching...ok. Here's where the matchup becomes problematic: Dedede's grab range is obnoxious. There's no other adjective in the book that describes it. It's the kind of range Bowser would kill for considering his abilities, you know? And I just wrote a paragraph about what he can do out of throws and stuff like that, so I won't get into it. Even if the small step cg doesn't apply to you, everything else, like his kill moves, do.
But I think it'd be better if I start with all of his moves first. I think in this matchup as Bowser you'll need to watch out for long ranged moves such as FTilt, that not only keep you out [by you I mean Klaw] but also damage you. Dedede's FTilt is long...seriously. And it kinda outrules the thought of approaching by ground. Although, one good thing is that Bowser's forward smash actually can hit through D3's FTilt with the right positioning. I personally wouldn't be winging FSmashes left and right, but it's a nice thought. You can expect Dedede to FTilt you if you're approaching with an aerial klaw from above or from the lower ground as well.
Aside from his FTilt, you don't really have much else to worry about if you two are both on level ground. His jab is silly, and if you get hit by it, you can shrug it off and jab him back. His DTilt always gets me, because I always over and underestimate its range, but his FTilt is still a much better zoning/spacing option, so you probably won't see it if he's trying to keep you out. Dedede's UTilt can stop FF'd Klaws, which I learned the hard way. If you're above him and you see him in his shield, go for the klaw obviously, but otherwise, try to think harder about the situation. His UTilt comes out deceptively fast, has quite a bit of range and power. Although, if you are stuck in the air with nowhere to go, your best bet (and this is usually the case in most, if not all of Bowser's MUs) is Klaw. Klawhopping around Dedede is a bad idea in general, because once you're above him, he can just UTilt you and put an end to that.
Aerials are a different story, because all of them can be pretty useful for Dedede. And Bowser just gets ***** in the air...Honestly, if you're thinking about fighting him in the air, just don't. Because all we have is FAir and Klaw, and he has all of his aerials. A positive thing for us is that his air speed is atrocious, so if you find ways to abuse that while you two are both onstage, go for it. The main aerials you'll probably end up having to fend off against will be BAir and DAir. BAir because it's Dedede, and DAir because you're Bowser. Bowser's large, which means a FHDAir will certainly hit you if you're not shielding it. If you are shielding it though, and do happen to shield all of the hits, go for a UTilt before the Dedede goes for another move, or NAir OoS to get him out of your space. With BAir, it'll hit you if it's short hopped, full hopped or whatever. It has good range, a long hit-period, and pretty much matches our FAir. His BAir will also be his main gimping tool when we're offstage, maybe with a little help from his FAir, but it's a very good move nonetheless. Dedede can fit BAirs inbetween our missed klaws, so be careful with when, where and how you use klaw, which is kinda the main theme of this write-up. His FAir is slightly slower than his BAir because he takes a swing with his hammer instead. The hitbox on the move is kinda like a uppercut/C, and when fast-falled like it usually will be when Dedede's edgeguarding us, it's kinda difficult to avoid. If you're grounded, FAir isn't something you should be TOO afraid of being hit by, but it's possible. And I'm willing to bet that his FAir will be fresher than his BAir, and it does have some decent KO power. Just be careful. Dedede's UAir is easy to SDI out of, but it can juggle us because of our ****ty blindspot. NAir is a really...odd aerial, but still pretty good. It comes out quick, doesn't have too much lag, and is good in terms of juggling too. At low percents, if you're hit by an NAir, you can expect a UTilt to follow that, but if a Dedede NAirs into your shield...you should Up-B. lol
Now, going from onstage to offstage, this MU becomes kinda difficult for us when we're the ones trying to get back. If we're offstage, it can be kinda problematic depending on how we recover. Dedede has a lot of options/ways to keep us from reaching the ledge, such as Waddle Dee tossing, FAir/BAir walling or D3Ciding. Recovering low isn't exactly the best option, but recovering high is ******** if you're forced to use your Up-B. If not, and you can reach the stage with only using your second jump, it's fine, because you can klaw away or airdodge to the ground. Up-B'ing from uphigh is generally a bad idea due to Bowser's landing lag, and it's even worse in this instance because Dedede can wait until you land and CG you to the other end of the stage and repeat the process. Unfortunately, Dedede has terrible air-speed, but he has multiple jumps, so he can wait out near the ledge/offstage and react to Bowser's recovery. He can either bait a high recovery, and do what I said earlier, or bait the low recovery and keep you off with BAirs or FAirs. It's really bad, although granted if you DI up most of the times, you won't have much of an issue, because more often than not you'll be brought to the ledge via chaingrab than anything else. D3 can finish with a DTilt, or an FThrow if he wants to, but DI'ing up like I said will save you the recovery issue most of the time, and you can just BBomb to the ledge or whatever.
Now being ON the ledge is meh. Bowser's somewhat predictable ledge-wise post 100% damage, because our getup options become even slower. What that means is that getting up from the ledge vs Dedede is a pain in the ***. Dedede's DTilt is really good for ledgetrapping, and limits our options to simply jumping or just planking with fortress. DTilt also prevents any further hanging on the ledge after your invincibility frames have worn off. DTilt is just...terrible for us regarding the ledge. The only way around it is jumping, and our jump is a pretty good option if we're not past 100%. Once we are, the jump becomes telegraphed and it can be intercepted with a UTilt.
On a more general note, certain aspects about Dedede are worth taking into account. He's just as large as Bowser is, which means his shield as as big as ours. Although, a shield is a shield; it can be poked, and thankfully for Bowser, it can be klawed through. Don't fear Dedede's shield, because the most he can do out of it is grab, which shouldnt be a problem if you're AERIAL KLAWING.
I kinda covered D3's main kill moves and what you should be expecting to be losing your stock to, but his KO power itself is also worth noting. He has a number of moves that can kill you, and easily too if you're not careful. His FSmash, although slow, can catch you if you're being a ******* and not on your toes. You shouldn't expect a Dedede to use his Jet Hammer (vB) but if you do come across that oddity, don't be stupid; do something and intercept it.
Continuing what I said earlier, your success in this MU really does depend on how you use Klaw. With Bowser on the approach, we should mainly be using Aerial Klaw to build up most of the damage. Dedede's will probably try to get you with a shieldgrab, so what better way to deal with their shield than with our best/safest move we have. If you're not feeling klaw-happy, or confident with that move, you can try to keep him out of your face with FTilts/Jabbing like hell. At the right distance, FTilt can prove to be really helpful with keeping out of his grab range but still poking his own shield and seeing how the Dedede reacts.
We have our usual ****, Up-B OoS if you block a move, but don't get too happy with it, because it is possible to get grabbed. Don't forget the grabbing penalty.
Now for grab releasing, we do have a number of things we can do to Dedede. On the ground release, we can regrab him easily, FTilt, Jab, or Klaw. Depending on the distance, I think it's also possible that you can DTilt. I've DTilted a D3 in a match before, but I don't think it's a consistent thing. On the air release, you can FAir, I'm not sure about regrabbing though. The whole situation of getting a grab is very very hazy though, because if you MISS the grab, you risk getting grabbed yourself, which sucks. The risk-reward system on that Z button isn't really at it's prettiest in this MU, but if you see the opportunity to grab, go for it. Be even more careful if you happen to dash-grab because there's more lag on that than the standing grab.
KO'ing is never a problem for Bowser because most of his moves have absurd killing power, and you'll probably be using all of them in this MU. When Dedede is recovering, this is when Bowser shines. You, as Bowser, should be trying to deal as much damage as possible (I repeat, as much damage as possible) when Dedede is offstage. Edgeguard him, keep him offstage, force him to use his UpB. You'll love it, trust me. Dedede's air speed is atrocious, like I said before, and with your aerials, you can elongate the distance between the stage/ledge and himself. If you find yourself in this situation, your main killing moves will probably be BAir and UAir. I think I've fallen in love with BAir as an offstage killing move, because its range is killer and it also has a weakbox. It's an amazing move, seriously. And UAir catches people by surprise, frame traps, it does all the works. Turn all of this, and use it to your advantage when he's offstage. Obviously if you're facing a competent player, they'll fight back with D3's own aerials, but yeah. (Mental blank go) Oh, if Dedede's forced to Up-B, intercept with a UAir, USmash, or PS his landing and go for the grab release to get him offstage again and repeat the process.
See? Dedede's just like a mirror version of us if you think about it. We can do the same things to him, only that his grab range is ********.
And uh, I didn't create a paragraph simply for D3's grab..or I can't remember, but one cool thing as well is you can FSmash and dodge Dedede's grab and damage him at the same time. Like I said regarding FTilt, don't flail that **** around too often or you'll just be hurting yourself.
To sum it up, of course Bowser has some strengths over Dedede, but D3's grab range, chaingrab, somewhat superior aerial game and equal offstage/edgeguarding game kinda outweighs our own stuff, and puts us at a disadvantage. 40:60 is perfect IMO, and this is regarding if the infinite is illegal. If it is legal, why would you be choosing Bowser in the first place?
Stages:
Striking Neutrals (Dedede+):
Personally I'd strike FD first, then whatever odd neutral you have on your stage list, aka Lylat/PS1 or whatever.
-Final Destination: Obviously a Dedede+ stage. Why? Think about it: It's just a large platform. There's nothing between Bowser and Dedede but a long distance, which makes it easier for him to camp and chaingrab you with. I just wouldn't bother going here for the first match. Strike it if you can.
-Lylat Cruise: Same as FD, except you have three higher platforms, which you can platform cancel on as well!! However, the platforms are really small, and'll probably get in your way more than help you. I'm serious, you have a better chance of dealing with Dedede on BF/SV/YI than on Lylat. One thing to note is how the stage shifts from left to right. Its angling may help/hurt you depending on where you are on the stage. For example, I know with some characters, that angling gives them just enough space to pull out a move before D3 can reach for the grab again. Although, I doubt that's the case for Bowser since he's large as ****. Oh well. Strike this.
-Pokemon Stadium 1: I knock this stage a lot because I just don't like it as a neutral. I'll try to discard personal reasons out of this, but it's in the same degree as Lylat with those platforms. You have two, with a bit of distance between them, but the platforms are really small so they don't really do much for you. Platform camping is a bit easier here than it is on Lylat, and you can fish for klaws from above if you'd like. However, that's only on the first transformation, aka the NEUTRAL one. When PS1 transforms, which happens often, it just becomes a ***** of a stage. Here's the breakdown::
Fire: This is the one with the burned house or w/e the hell it is. On the left side, you have about 2 areas that Dedede can wall infinite you on, and I think this is legal. So do your best to avoid that area. But hey, look on the bright side. On the right, you also have another area where you can be CG'd -> wall infinited on. If I were you, I'd just run away/plank until it reverts back to neutral again. You as Bowser have your grabs as well, you can grab release -> regrab to the wall and just continue with your wall infinite if you'd like. Massive props if you do get that though.
Water: The windmill one...that's really it. It kinda explains itself. The windmill is on the left, and Bowser's too big to cross under it when it's completely blocking you. I'm pretty sure D3 can pull some mini wall infinite off of that if you do happen to get grabbed there. On the right, you have 3 (I think?) small platforms that ascend higher. They don't really do too much for you, but if you get Dedede trapped on there, take advantage of it with klaws/utilt/smash. You know. Personally on this transformation I would just wait it out behind the windmill, because Dedede's also large and it'll take him some time to get to you. Or you could always plank.
Grass: The one with the little treehouse sort of thing. The ground is level enough where Dedede can chaingrab you across. Be careful. There's nothing really stopping him except a few lumps on the ground here and there. You have 2/3 platforms that are stacked right above each other, so wait it out there if you'd like. If you get Dedede on one of them, treat it like any other platform. S/FHKlaw, UTilt/Smash, you know.
Rock: The one with the big *** mountain. I would AVOID any contact on this stage because anywhere you are just asks for wall infinites. That's all that needs to be said.
I'd just strike this damn stage altogether. I don't like it at all when facing Dedede. There are more/better CPs that'll be on a Dedede's mind, so you usually shouldn't worry about being brought here for his CP.
Leftover Neutrals/Ones the Dedede may strike (Dedede-):
-Battlefield: Probably your best bet as a neutral. 3 well spaced platforms that allow for maximum klawhop/drop usage. And it's easy as hell to platform camp here. Go for it. The stage isn't as long as FD so the chaingrabbing isn't that bad, and the platforms give you multiple options for recovery. If you catch Dedede on a platform, react accordingly, apply pressure or just klaw and get it over with. If you're on a platform, just get off, I'd recommend jumping if you're on the two lower platforms because moving off will just risk yourself at getting grabbed. All around our best neutral in this instance, and will probably be his first strike, so don't count on going here for game 1.
-Smashville: Personally my favorite stage, I like it more than BF simply because of the moving platform and more maneuverability on this stage for me. You can platform camp here, and do the infamous platform cancel (it's kinda useless here unless you can platform cancel and grab the Dedede that's standing on the platform, and then grab release **** or something./theorycraft) The chaingrabbing penalty is slightly higher here, and the moving platform may not be where you want it to be when you're trying to recover, but it gives you many options. Remember that you can restore your jumps with klawhop/dropping. There's a small chance that you'll either be brought here if your opponent is lazy and just asks to agree to SV or something. I doubt anyone would strike this, but it's very possible, so don't count on it.
-Yoshi's Island: Another neutral I kinda hate but really should get used to. There's a little dip in the middle of the platform, but because you're Bowser that doesn't really mean anything in terms of escaping the grab. And we're not DK so we don't get SA frames from doing some fancy up-b ****. sigh...we miss out on a lot of things by playing Bowser. Oh well. ANYWAY, there's a large platform that pulls a Lylat cruise during the game. It changes its angle for absolutely no reason, and that can also help or hurt you depending on your situations. It's possible to plat-cancel on the platform when it's at a certain height as well.
Counterpicks (Dedede+ because I don't know any good Bowser CPs besides BF and I usually go to SV)
As a little prelude, I would ban RC/Delfino against a Dedede. I'll go into detail about those 2 and maybe Pictochat. There may be a small chance that the D3 may take you to Brinstar, but I doubt that. Some other viable choices are PS1, Picto and Frigate.
-Rainbow Cruise: ****ty stage for Bowser. In the beginning, there's an area where Dedede can wall infinite you. At first, it may seem like an odd option to be brought here by someone who's not Metaknight, but think about it: He has multiple jumps, and although his air speed sucks, he can last longer than you, and he can chaingrab you across things and put you in ****ty predicaments. There's also a part where he can CG you for the kill (I think it's in the last area before you go back to the ship again). I'm not sure what I would ban between this and Delfino, but I'd certainly go MK or something.
-Delfino: A BIG Dedede CP Stage in this instance. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL HERE, ESPECIALLY ON CERTAIN TRANSFORMATIONS. I think there are three where he can just CG you to the blast zone and kill you. In this situation I would run away like hell, or plank if you can. Your best bet at getting damage on him is dealing with him on the normal Delfino transformation, or attacking him when there's no danger of being infinited or killed, which is only on one transformation other than the normal one. If you're stuck on this stage, good luck. It's doable, certainly, but extremely difficult.
-Pictochat: The stage, without any stuff added to it, is very long. Very long. If you get grabbed at one end, expect to get DThrowed to the other. When the other crap is added to it, Dedede can get wall infinites (ie, spike wall, the mouth, the whale, the boat/ship), throws into it (ie the fire, the moving car or the missiles)...it's just pretty bad. Another stage where we're not DK so we don't get SA frames off of the upb. I wouldn't ban this over RC or Delfino, but it's certainly an option for Dedede.
[Dedede FINISHED. project still in progress]
{King Dedede}
Ratio:{40:60 w/o infinite, 20:80 with it}
Secondary:{Metaknight/Falco?}
What to look out for: {DThrow, BAir, Waddle Dee camping if you don't approach, FTilt, maybe DAir}
How they will KO you: {DTilt/DSmash/USmash all out of DThrow, gimping is possible with BAir, UTilt}
Best spacing zone: {Aerial Klaw range is the best obviously. Resort to FTilt if you have to, but just don't be within his grab range for too long.}
Grab-Relase
- For damage: {Chaingrab + Klaw}
- For the KO: {DTilt, FAir}
Firebreath: {Use sparingly for mixups, if you do catch him in firebreath, go for it I guess}
Stages
- Strike: {FD, Lylat/PS1}
- Ban: {FD, Rainbow Cruise, Castle Siege/Delfino} <--I'm not sure how many stages I can list to ban so I just put all the big Dedede stages.
- Pick: {Battlefield, SV?}
Link to discussion: {...hi Jay}
Right, so Dedede. I mean, most of us Bowser players have heard the common "just pick Dedede and you win" statement, which is sorta true in its own right, when there are no rules involved. With no rules at all, you're looking at a character that can deal 70%+ damage off of one grab, or better yet, one mistake from us. One grab leads to a down-throw, which leads to one small step, which repeats itself until you reach the ledge. Not to mention that Dedede can also Down-Smash Bowser out of his Down-Throw for a kill (thank God Vex showed me this), DTilt us offstage and work the gimp magic, AND thanks to recent discovery, pivot grab us and continue the bull****, and USmash us for the kill.
Pret-ty damn daunting if you look at it like that. Certainly a 20-80 MU, the risks are just too high. I wouldn't use Bowser against him unless I was feeling ballsy. Thankfully, that's never really the case. Or for me, it isn't. Where I'm at [NY], Dededes are limited to only regrabbing if they've dashed, which reduces the number of possible grabs off of the CG.
Approach-wise, Dedede doesn't really have to do much of anything. Bowser doesn't have a projectile unfortunately, and Dedede has one. It's not anything like Falco's laser or Snake's grenades, but it's better than nothing. The Waddle Dee toss can be ps'd pretty easily, but the little things themselves are pretty irritating. The waddle dee, aka the one that only jumps around isn't really much to fret over, but the waddle doo, which shoots electric beams is annoying. If you leave either one of those two hanging around, you risk them becoming obstacles seconds down the road, or them being of greater use to Dedede, which is what you don't want. So if you have the spare time [lol] just give them a jab or a tilt or something to knock them out. I'm sure it refreshes your moves anyway. One of the other alternatives is the Gordo, which rarely comes out, but with some luck will probably be a real pain in the ***. It's basically invincible, does a lot of damage, has crazy knockback and takes a chunk out of your shield if you do happen to see it coming. It's also pretty slow so if you're grounded, you can avoid it. Its trajectory is really awkward, I can't really explain it. If you're in the air, for Christ's sake, dodge the thing if you can. If not, you'll probably die if you're at kill %s.
So yeah, Dedede has the tool
But I think it'd be better if I start with all of his moves first. I think in this matchup as Bowser you'll need to watch out for long ranged moves such as FTilt, that not only keep you out [by you I mean Klaw] but also damage you. Dedede's FTilt is long...seriously. And it kinda outrules the thought of approaching by ground. Although, one good thing is that Bowser's forward smash actually can hit through D3's FTilt with the right positioning. I personally wouldn't be winging FSmashes left and right, but it's a nice thought. You can expect Dedede to FTilt you if you're approaching with an aerial klaw from above or from the lower ground as well.
Aside from his FTilt, you don't really have much else to worry about if you two are both on level ground. His jab is silly, and if you get hit by it, you can shrug it off and jab him back. His DTilt always gets me, because I always over and underestimate its range, but his FTilt is still a much better zoning/spacing option, so you probably won't see it if he's trying to keep you out. Dedede's UTilt can stop FF'd Klaws, which I learned the hard way. If you're above him and you see him in his shield, go for the klaw obviously, but otherwise, try to think harder about the situation. His UTilt comes out deceptively fast, has quite a bit of range and power. Although, if you are stuck in the air with nowhere to go, your best bet (and this is usually the case in most, if not all of Bowser's MUs) is Klaw. Klawhopping around Dedede is a bad idea in general, because once you're above him, he can just UTilt you and put an end to that.
Aerials are a different story, because all of them can be pretty useful for Dedede. And Bowser just gets ***** in the air...Honestly, if you're thinking about fighting him in the air, just don't. Because all we have is FAir and Klaw, and he has all of his aerials. A positive thing for us is that his air speed is atrocious, so if you find ways to abuse that while you two are both onstage, go for it. The main aerials you'll probably end up having to fend off against will be BAir and DAir. BAir because it's Dedede, and DAir because you're Bowser. Bowser's large, which means a FHDAir will certainly hit you if you're not shielding it. If you are shielding it though, and do happen to shield all of the hits, go for a UTilt before the Dedede goes for another move, or NAir OoS to get him out of your space. With BAir, it'll hit you if it's short hopped, full hopped or whatever. It has good range, a long hit-period, and pretty much matches our FAir. His BAir will also be his main gimping tool when we're offstage, maybe with a little help from his FAir, but it's a very good move nonetheless. Dedede can fit BAirs inbetween our missed klaws, so be careful with when, where and how you use klaw, which is kinda the main theme of this write-up. His FAir is slightly slower than his BAir because he takes a swing with his hammer instead. The hitbox on the move is kinda like a uppercut/C, and when fast-falled like it usually will be when Dedede's edgeguarding us, it's kinda difficult to avoid. If you're grounded, FAir isn't something you should be TOO afraid of being hit by, but it's possible. And I'm willing to bet that his FAir will be fresher than his BAir, and it does have some decent KO power. Just be careful. Dedede's UAir is easy to SDI out of, but it can juggle us because of our ****ty blindspot. NAir is a really...odd aerial, but still pretty good. It comes out quick, doesn't have too much lag, and is good in terms of juggling too. At low percents, if you're hit by an NAir, you can expect a UTilt to follow that, but if a Dedede NAirs into your shield...you should Up-B. lol
Now, going from onstage to offstage, this MU becomes kinda difficult for us when we're the ones trying to get back. If we're offstage, it can be kinda problematic depending on how we recover. Dedede has a lot of options/ways to keep us from reaching the ledge, such as Waddle Dee tossing, FAir/BAir walling or D3Ciding. Recovering low isn't exactly the best option, but recovering high is ******** if you're forced to use your Up-B. If not, and you can reach the stage with only using your second jump, it's fine, because you can klaw away or airdodge to the ground. Up-B'ing from uphigh is generally a bad idea due to Bowser's landing lag, and it's even worse in this instance because Dedede can wait until you land and CG you to the other end of the stage and repeat the process. Unfortunately, Dedede has terrible air-speed, but he has multiple jumps, so he can wait out near the ledge/offstage and react to Bowser's recovery. He can either bait a high recovery, and do what I said earlier, or bait the low recovery and keep you off with BAirs or FAirs. It's really bad, although granted if you DI up most of the times, you won't have much of an issue, because more often than not you'll be brought to the ledge via chaingrab than anything else. D3 can finish with a DTilt, or an FThrow if he wants to, but DI'ing up like I said will save you the recovery issue most of the time, and you can just BBomb to the ledge or whatever.
Now being ON the ledge is meh. Bowser's somewhat predictable ledge-wise post 100% damage, because our getup options become even slower. What that means is that getting up from the ledge vs Dedede is a pain in the ***. Dedede's DTilt is really good for ledgetrapping, and limits our options to simply jumping or just planking with fortress. DTilt also prevents any further hanging on the ledge after your invincibility frames have worn off. DTilt is just...terrible for us regarding the ledge. The only way around it is jumping, and our jump is a pretty good option if we're not past 100%. Once we are, the jump becomes telegraphed and it can be intercepted with a UTilt.
On a more general note, certain aspects about Dedede are worth taking into account. He's just as large as Bowser is, which means his shield as as big as ours. Although, a shield is a shield; it can be poked, and thankfully for Bowser, it can be klawed through. Don't fear Dedede's shield, because the most he can do out of it is grab, which shouldnt be a problem if you're AERIAL KLAWING.
I kinda covered D3's main kill moves and what you should be expecting to be losing your stock to, but his KO power itself is also worth noting. He has a number of moves that can kill you, and easily too if you're not careful. His FSmash, although slow, can catch you if you're being a ******* and not on your toes. You shouldn't expect a Dedede to use his Jet Hammer (vB) but if you do come across that oddity, don't be stupid; do something and intercept it.
Continuing what I said earlier, your success in this MU really does depend on how you use Klaw. With Bowser on the approach, we should mainly be using Aerial Klaw to build up most of the damage. Dedede's will probably try to get you with a shieldgrab, so what better way to deal with their shield than with our best/safest move we have. If you're not feeling klaw-happy, or confident with that move, you can try to keep him out of your face with FTilts/Jabbing like hell. At the right distance, FTilt can prove to be really helpful with keeping out of his grab range but still poking his own shield and seeing how the Dedede reacts.
We have our usual ****, Up-B OoS if you block a move, but don't get too happy with it, because it is possible to get grabbed. Don't forget the grabbing penalty.
Now for grab releasing, we do have a number of things we can do to Dedede. On the ground release, we can regrab him easily, FTilt, Jab, or Klaw. Depending on the distance, I think it's also possible that you can DTilt. I've DTilted a D3 in a match before, but I don't think it's a consistent thing. On the air release, you can FAir, I'm not sure about regrabbing though. The whole situation of getting a grab is very very hazy though, because if you MISS the grab, you risk getting grabbed yourself, which sucks. The risk-reward system on that Z button isn't really at it's prettiest in this MU, but if you see the opportunity to grab, go for it. Be even more careful if you happen to dash-grab because there's more lag on that than the standing grab.
KO'ing is never a problem for Bowser because most of his moves have absurd killing power, and you'll probably be using all of them in this MU. When Dedede is recovering, this is when Bowser shines. You, as Bowser, should be trying to deal as much damage as possible (I repeat, as much damage as possible) when Dedede is offstage. Edgeguard him, keep him offstage, force him to use his UpB. You'll love it, trust me. Dedede's air speed is atrocious, like I said before, and with your aerials, you can elongate the distance between the stage/ledge and himself. If you find yourself in this situation, your main killing moves will probably be BAir and UAir. I think I've fallen in love with BAir as an offstage killing move, because its range is killer and it also has a weakbox. It's an amazing move, seriously. And UAir catches people by surprise, frame traps, it does all the works. Turn all of this, and use it to your advantage when he's offstage. Obviously if you're facing a competent player, they'll fight back with D3's own aerials, but yeah. (Mental blank go) Oh, if Dedede's forced to Up-B, intercept with a UAir, USmash, or PS his landing and go for the grab release to get him offstage again and repeat the process.
See? Dedede's just like a mirror version of us if you think about it. We can do the same things to him, only that his grab range is ********.
And uh, I didn't create a paragraph simply for D3's grab..or I can't remember, but one cool thing as well is you can FSmash and dodge Dedede's grab and damage him at the same time. Like I said regarding FTilt, don't flail that **** around too often or you'll just be hurting yourself.
To sum it up, of course Bowser has some strengths over Dedede, but D3's grab range, chaingrab, somewhat superior aerial game and equal offstage/edgeguarding game kinda outweighs our own stuff, and puts us at a disadvantage. 40:60 is perfect IMO, and this is regarding if the infinite is illegal. If it is legal, why would you be choosing Bowser in the first place?
Stages:
Striking Neutrals (Dedede+):
Personally I'd strike FD first, then whatever odd neutral you have on your stage list, aka Lylat/PS1 or whatever.
-Final Destination: Obviously a Dedede+ stage. Why? Think about it: It's just a large platform. There's nothing between Bowser and Dedede but a long distance, which makes it easier for him to camp and chaingrab you with. I just wouldn't bother going here for the first match. Strike it if you can.
-Lylat Cruise: Same as FD, except you have three higher platforms, which you can platform cancel on as well!! However, the platforms are really small, and'll probably get in your way more than help you. I'm serious, you have a better chance of dealing with Dedede on BF/SV/YI than on Lylat. One thing to note is how the stage shifts from left to right. Its angling may help/hurt you depending on where you are on the stage. For example, I know with some characters, that angling gives them just enough space to pull out a move before D3 can reach for the grab again. Although, I doubt that's the case for Bowser since he's large as ****. Oh well. Strike this.
-Pokemon Stadium 1: I knock this stage a lot because I just don't like it as a neutral. I'll try to discard personal reasons out of this, but it's in the same degree as Lylat with those platforms. You have two, with a bit of distance between them, but the platforms are really small so they don't really do much for you. Platform camping is a bit easier here than it is on Lylat, and you can fish for klaws from above if you'd like. However, that's only on the first transformation, aka the NEUTRAL one. When PS1 transforms, which happens often, it just becomes a ***** of a stage. Here's the breakdown::
Fire: This is the one with the burned house or w/e the hell it is. On the left side, you have about 2 areas that Dedede can wall infinite you on, and I think this is legal. So do your best to avoid that area. But hey, look on the bright side. On the right, you also have another area where you can be CG'd -> wall infinited on. If I were you, I'd just run away/plank until it reverts back to neutral again. You as Bowser have your grabs as well, you can grab release -> regrab to the wall and just continue with your wall infinite if you'd like. Massive props if you do get that though.
Water: The windmill one...that's really it. It kinda explains itself. The windmill is on the left, and Bowser's too big to cross under it when it's completely blocking you. I'm pretty sure D3 can pull some mini wall infinite off of that if you do happen to get grabbed there. On the right, you have 3 (I think?) small platforms that ascend higher. They don't really do too much for you, but if you get Dedede trapped on there, take advantage of it with klaws/utilt/smash. You know. Personally on this transformation I would just wait it out behind the windmill, because Dedede's also large and it'll take him some time to get to you. Or you could always plank.
Grass: The one with the little treehouse sort of thing. The ground is level enough where Dedede can chaingrab you across. Be careful. There's nothing really stopping him except a few lumps on the ground here and there. You have 2/3 platforms that are stacked right above each other, so wait it out there if you'd like. If you get Dedede on one of them, treat it like any other platform. S/FHKlaw, UTilt/Smash, you know.
Rock: The one with the big *** mountain. I would AVOID any contact on this stage because anywhere you are just asks for wall infinites. That's all that needs to be said.
I'd just strike this damn stage altogether. I don't like it at all when facing Dedede. There are more/better CPs that'll be on a Dedede's mind, so you usually shouldn't worry about being brought here for his CP.
Leftover Neutrals/Ones the Dedede may strike (Dedede-):
-Battlefield: Probably your best bet as a neutral. 3 well spaced platforms that allow for maximum klawhop/drop usage. And it's easy as hell to platform camp here. Go for it. The stage isn't as long as FD so the chaingrabbing isn't that bad, and the platforms give you multiple options for recovery. If you catch Dedede on a platform, react accordingly, apply pressure or just klaw and get it over with. If you're on a platform, just get off, I'd recommend jumping if you're on the two lower platforms because moving off will just risk yourself at getting grabbed. All around our best neutral in this instance, and will probably be his first strike, so don't count on going here for game 1.
-Smashville: Personally my favorite stage, I like it more than BF simply because of the moving platform and more maneuverability on this stage for me. You can platform camp here, and do the infamous platform cancel (it's kinda useless here unless you can platform cancel and grab the Dedede that's standing on the platform, and then grab release **** or something./theorycraft) The chaingrabbing penalty is slightly higher here, and the moving platform may not be where you want it to be when you're trying to recover, but it gives you many options. Remember that you can restore your jumps with klawhop/dropping. There's a small chance that you'll either be brought here if your opponent is lazy and just asks to agree to SV or something. I doubt anyone would strike this, but it's very possible, so don't count on it.
-Yoshi's Island: Another neutral I kinda hate but really should get used to. There's a little dip in the middle of the platform, but because you're Bowser that doesn't really mean anything in terms of escaping the grab. And we're not DK so we don't get SA frames from doing some fancy up-b ****. sigh...we miss out on a lot of things by playing Bowser. Oh well. ANYWAY, there's a large platform that pulls a Lylat cruise during the game. It changes its angle for absolutely no reason, and that can also help or hurt you depending on your situations. It's possible to plat-cancel on the platform when it's at a certain height as well.
Counterpicks (Dedede+ because I don't know any good Bowser CPs besides BF and I usually go to SV)
As a little prelude, I would ban RC/Delfino against a Dedede. I'll go into detail about those 2 and maybe Pictochat. There may be a small chance that the D3 may take you to Brinstar, but I doubt that. Some other viable choices are PS1, Picto and Frigate.
-Rainbow Cruise: ****ty stage for Bowser. In the beginning, there's an area where Dedede can wall infinite you. At first, it may seem like an odd option to be brought here by someone who's not Metaknight, but think about it: He has multiple jumps, and although his air speed sucks, he can last longer than you, and he can chaingrab you across things and put you in ****ty predicaments. There's also a part where he can CG you for the kill (I think it's in the last area before you go back to the ship again). I'm not sure what I would ban between this and Delfino, but I'd certainly go MK or something.
-Delfino: A BIG Dedede CP Stage in this instance. BE EXTREMELY CAREFUL HERE, ESPECIALLY ON CERTAIN TRANSFORMATIONS. I think there are three where he can just CG you to the blast zone and kill you. In this situation I would run away like hell, or plank if you can. Your best bet at getting damage on him is dealing with him on the normal Delfino transformation, or attacking him when there's no danger of being infinited or killed, which is only on one transformation other than the normal one. If you're stuck on this stage, good luck. It's doable, certainly, but extremely difficult.
-Pictochat: The stage, without any stuff added to it, is very long. Very long. If you get grabbed at one end, expect to get DThrowed to the other. When the other crap is added to it, Dedede can get wall infinites (ie, spike wall, the mouth, the whale, the boat/ship), throws into it (ie the fire, the moving car or the missiles)...it's just pretty bad. Another stage where we're not DK so we don't get SA frames off of the upb. I wouldn't ban this over RC or Delfino, but it's certainly an option for Dedede.
[Dedede FINISHED. project still in progress]
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
Yeah, I'm not sure if I should do separate posts per MU or just have one hulk of text...
I think it'd be easier on everyone if I do separate posts, but I'm not sure what they'd prefer.
I think it'd be easier on everyone if I do separate posts, but I'm not sure what they'd prefer.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Yeah it would.
Really appreciated, Limit ^^
Really appreciated, Limit ^^
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
Yeah, MK. Very important one too.
Cassius.
you're deadMEAT.
You had the ratio stuff up there already, so I didn't bother to do it myself.
---------------------------------------------
K, Meta Knight.
Ugh, Meta Knight. Where to begin:
Basically, just abandon all preconceived notions about the Bowser-MK MU. It's not 45-55, or 40-60. Bowser's at a large disadvantage, 35-65, period. When I mention MK, I'm talking about the competent MKs, the ones that know how to **** Bowser over and don't recklessly attack my shield, and go offstage and read my DI and gimp me. Yeah.
But yes, it's a very difficult MU. One of the most important MUs to learn for Bowser, and certainly one of the more common matchups you'll probably face in your bracket.
At a general look into MK, he doesn't have any projectiles, so if you have a small lead, maintain it, and don't approach for God's sake. You'll be ruining all the work you put in to even damage the mother****er. Trust me, it's hard to get inside a MK that shuttle loops all of your klaws and doesn't give you any breathing room. Metaknight's also a light character, with below average air speed outside of his gliding. He has 5/6 jumps (can't remember), and has quick, hard hitting aerials that are bound to put you in a terrible position. The infamous Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop are at his disposal, and I'd fear both as Bowser, especially the MT, only because Bowser's a large guy and it's difficult to get out of once you've been hit. However, if you look at Bowser, it seems as though he wouldn't exactly have a problem facing up against an MK right? Grab releases into NASTY killer moves, an aerial grab, and one of the best OoS options in the game, right? And MK has no projectile, so you can just wait it out, right? If that were the case I'd be crying tears of joy right now, because it's not.
I'd honestly recommend a very defensive approach to this matchup, you'll be playing with a very keen and patient eye. Don't rush anything, and expect everything. MK has more than enough tools to turn a match around, and it may seem like complete bull****, but he exists. I think you can expect all of MK's moves to be used on you, with the exception of Jab, UpSmash, Drill Rush and Dimensional Cape.
And now that I've mentioned it, I guess I should break down all of said moves that you should expect. Starting with his ground game, you should only expect F/DTilt, and F/Dsmash to be used on you. And grabs of course. Honestly, I think MK will probably spend most of his time on the ground merely poking you with tilts at low %s and then just gearing up for the kill with Smashes/NAir if anything.
So...FTilt, you can basically call that his jab, because his actual jab is garbage. This "jab" hits 3 times, and the MK can vary the speed of the slashes. It has quite a bit of range, and is pretty good at poking/prodding at your shield and keeping you away from him. Basically stops the majority of the possible grounded approaches you could have. Although, if the MK does happen to use the 3rd hit, the lag on the end is enough for you to go in and hit with a jab/ftilt if you're close enough. I wouldn't recommend dash grabbing, but go for it if you must.
DTilt does the same thing, comes out fast, but this has even less lag than FTilt3, same uses though. Poking your shield, and at low percents it causes tripping, which can lead to a multitude of things depending on the MK's creativity. The most common followup is a grab, so just watch out for that if you recover quickly. The good thing about these tilts is that if you happen to powershield them, you can actually do something. If not, you're kinda out of luck because he recovers from his lag a bit quicker than we can get to him/attack him. I'd just go for a jab in any instance.
His grab is meh, the range is fine, and his dash grab is ridiculous range wise, but laughably lagged up at the end. If an MK whiffs a dash grab, you'd better punish with your own grab or something, because it'll be worth your while. MK's best/most common throw is probably DThrow, it sets up for a lot of things. The best way to DI DThrow is down and away because it allows you to tech out/get further away from the MK to give you breathing room. You can always DI up, but I wouldn't recommend it because Nado can follow up, and Bowser's Bowser. You know how that goes. Depending on how close you are to the ledge/your positioning though, MK may B/Fthrow you instead. At high %s you should expect a UThrow, but that won't be killing you anytime soon, right? (I'm serious, you're a heavy guy, don't sweat it)
So yeah, his ground game is kinda linear since he only has like, 2 good moves. His Smashes are a different story though. FSmash has pretty deceptive range, and his DSmash comes out alarmingly quick. It can be used as a kill move, or a "get out of my face" move as well. I THINK the backside of dsmash is stronger, lol. Anyway, I think you'll have a hard time trying to punish either one of those smashes when they're not powershielded. Your best bet at dealing with DSmash is with SHKlaw. If you happen to spotdodge a DSmash, you can grab MK before he can do anything else. Personally for me (as a sorta-MK player too) FSmash is more difficult to deal with...it rips through airdodges, kills, has range, baits, all of the works. Just be careful throwing out FTilts against a grounded MK, because he can throw out an F/Dsmash at your hand and...yeah.
If you ever find yourself in the air against a Meta Knight, and you didn't put yourself up there, that's the problem in the MU. When you're in the air, MK has multiple options to keep you juggled. To name all of them quickly, UAir and Nado are big ones. Nado below Bowser is a very big problem in this MU. If the MK feels like being a **** he can just abuse nado when you're in the air until you figure out a way to get past it. In the air, only hitting MK at the top of the tornado will beat it out, or klaws from the side, but I've yet to klaw a nado when I'm above it. You can try your luck with fire, but that's not really advisable. MK can use UAir to bait airdodges, and just continue it.
I make it seem bad, but it actually is. Try to stay on the ground as much as you can. Although MK has a more...limiting ground game than us, it's easier to handle him when we're grounded. Remember our OoS options.
This is where my advice from before pays off: Be sure to KNOW what moves to use in EVERY situation. If an MK spaces a nado badly and ends up a distance from you, you WANT to punish that, because the player can make it easy for you to land hits on him, or make it hell.
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[in progress, saving pieces, 12/31/10]
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K, Meta Knight.
Ugh, Meta Knight. Where to begin:
Basically, just abandon all preconceived notions about the Bowser-MK MU. It's not 45-55, or 40-60. Bowser's at a large disadvantage, 35-65, period. When I mention MK, I'm talking about the competent MKs, the ones that know how to **** Bowser over and don't recklessly attack my shield, and go offstage and read my DI and gimp me. Yeah.
But yes, it's a very difficult MU. One of the most important MUs to learn for Bowser, and certainly one of the more common matchups you'll probably face in your bracket.
At a general look into MK, he doesn't have any projectiles, so if you have a small lead, maintain it, and don't approach for God's sake. You'll be ruining all the work you put in to even damage the mother****er. Trust me, it's hard to get inside a MK that shuttle loops all of your klaws and doesn't give you any breathing room. Metaknight's also a light character, with below average air speed outside of his gliding. He has 5/6 jumps (can't remember), and has quick, hard hitting aerials that are bound to put you in a terrible position. The infamous Mach Tornado and Shuttle Loop are at his disposal, and I'd fear both as Bowser, especially the MT, only because Bowser's a large guy and it's difficult to get out of once you've been hit. However, if you look at Bowser, it seems as though he wouldn't exactly have a problem facing up against an MK right? Grab releases into NASTY killer moves, an aerial grab, and one of the best OoS options in the game, right? And MK has no projectile, so you can just wait it out, right? If that were the case I'd be crying tears of joy right now, because it's not.
I'd honestly recommend a very defensive approach to this matchup, you'll be playing with a very keen and patient eye. Don't rush anything, and expect everything. MK has more than enough tools to turn a match around, and it may seem like complete bull****, but he exists. I think you can expect all of MK's moves to be used on you, with the exception of Jab, UpSmash, Drill Rush and Dimensional Cape.
And now that I've mentioned it, I guess I should break down all of said moves that you should expect. Starting with his ground game, you should only expect F/DTilt, and F/Dsmash to be used on you. And grabs of course. Honestly, I think MK will probably spend most of his time on the ground merely poking you with tilts at low %s and then just gearing up for the kill with Smashes/NAir if anything.
So...FTilt, you can basically call that his jab, because his actual jab is garbage. This "jab" hits 3 times, and the MK can vary the speed of the slashes. It has quite a bit of range, and is pretty good at poking/prodding at your shield and keeping you away from him. Basically stops the majority of the possible grounded approaches you could have. Although, if the MK does happen to use the 3rd hit, the lag on the end is enough for you to go in and hit with a jab/ftilt if you're close enough. I wouldn't recommend dash grabbing, but go for it if you must.
DTilt does the same thing, comes out fast, but this has even less lag than FTilt3, same uses though. Poking your shield, and at low percents it causes tripping, which can lead to a multitude of things depending on the MK's creativity. The most common followup is a grab, so just watch out for that if you recover quickly. The good thing about these tilts is that if you happen to powershield them, you can actually do something. If not, you're kinda out of luck because he recovers from his lag a bit quicker than we can get to him/attack him. I'd just go for a jab in any instance.
His grab is meh, the range is fine, and his dash grab is ridiculous range wise, but laughably lagged up at the end. If an MK whiffs a dash grab, you'd better punish with your own grab or something, because it'll be worth your while. MK's best/most common throw is probably DThrow, it sets up for a lot of things. The best way to DI DThrow is down and away because it allows you to tech out/get further away from the MK to give you breathing room. You can always DI up, but I wouldn't recommend it because Nado can follow up, and Bowser's Bowser. You know how that goes. Depending on how close you are to the ledge/your positioning though, MK may B/Fthrow you instead. At high %s you should expect a UThrow, but that won't be killing you anytime soon, right? (I'm serious, you're a heavy guy, don't sweat it)
So yeah, his ground game is kinda linear since he only has like, 2 good moves. His Smashes are a different story though. FSmash has pretty deceptive range, and his DSmash comes out alarmingly quick. It can be used as a kill move, or a "get out of my face" move as well. I THINK the backside of dsmash is stronger, lol. Anyway, I think you'll have a hard time trying to punish either one of those smashes when they're not powershielded. Your best bet at dealing with DSmash is with SHKlaw. If you happen to spotdodge a DSmash, you can grab MK before he can do anything else. Personally for me (as a sorta-MK player too) FSmash is more difficult to deal with...it rips through airdodges, kills, has range, baits, all of the works. Just be careful throwing out FTilts against a grounded MK, because he can throw out an F/Dsmash at your hand and...yeah.
If you ever find yourself in the air against a Meta Knight, and you didn't put yourself up there, that's the problem in the MU. When you're in the air, MK has multiple options to keep you juggled. To name all of them quickly, UAir and Nado are big ones. Nado below Bowser is a very big problem in this MU. If the MK feels like being a **** he can just abuse nado when you're in the air until you figure out a way to get past it. In the air, only hitting MK at the top of the tornado will beat it out, or klaws from the side, but I've yet to klaw a nado when I'm above it. You can try your luck with fire, but that's not really advisable. MK can use UAir to bait airdodges, and just continue it.
I make it seem bad, but it actually is. Try to stay on the ground as much as you can. Although MK has a more...limiting ground game than us, it's easier to handle him when we're grounded. Remember our OoS options.
This is where my advice from before pays off: Be sure to KNOW what moves to use in EVERY situation. If an MK spaces a nado badly and ends up a distance from you, you WANT to punish that, because the player can make it easy for you to land hits on him, or make it hell.
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[in progress, saving pieces, 12/31/10]
Zigsta
Disney Film Director
How do you guys feel about taking D3 to Brinstar?
Brinstar's generally where I CP most characters.
Brinstar's generally where I CP most characters.
Dumbfire
Sex? Yes, I'm familiar with the theory
I'd CP D3 to BF. I don't like Brinstar that much with Bowser.