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A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

Dark 3nergy

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that'd depend on who you CP Zig

Bowsers CG at Brinstar becomes a lot more situational thanks to lava. But like Doomfire said, CP DDD to brinstar would probably be a good idea.
 

Cassius.

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I don't feel as though I have too much control over the stage as I do with BF. I wouldn't go there lol. I'd much rather go to Battlefield, but whatever floats your boat.

I'll finish the MK writeup either today or tomorrow.
 

Uncle

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Brinstar is a viable pick for Bowser against DDD. Just don't expect the terrain to be particularly helpful to you. The stage is viable mostly because it's unfriendly to CGing, and take a wild guess who is more reliant on it in this matchup............

Would I take it over BF? Only if my opponent plays a CGer or if I get a strong gut feeling he/she isn't comfortable on that stage. Even then, I'd usually bust out DK (another main of mine) because he does better there.

BF>Brinstar in general for Bowser, but both can work.
 

Zigsta

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Im surprised Bowser has a good record over Sonic, Sonic is fast and powerful. When he gets the Smash Brawl he can do lots of damage.
It's a 50-50 MU. Sonic can rack up damage quickly, but he has a LOT of trouble killing Bowser. And with proper timing, Klaw beats pretty much everything Sonic has.

Smash Balls are turned off for competitive play, so it doesn't matter how strong Super Sonic is. That said, he's very difficult to control. Just go plank.

Right, Espy? :p
 

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allskwjasdosok I forgot about the writeup. **** I'll get on it when I get home this afternoon. Actually, I'll do it now if I can remember all of my thoughts..
 

Flayl

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Dedede write-up
Excellent job Limit, I just have a few things I'd like to comment. First thing is that Bowsers shouldn't be afraid of people who randomly pick up Dedede to try and get an easy win if they don't know Bowser, because aerial klaw will pretty much destroy them. It's the Dedede mains/secondaries you have to look out for. I'm bringing this up because it's not a "pick Dedede and you win" scenario.

Dedede's chaingrab doesn't stop at the ledge. He can standing chaingrab Bowser on any ledge or immobile platform.

Dedede can't really camp with Waddle Dee toss. It's not fast enough and it's really easy to avoid/shield. The most common situations where you can hit by it are if you're recovering or you make a predictable klaw hopped aerial. It gives Dedede something to do but hasn't really affected the matchup the times I've played it.

As someone who also plays Dedede, you really shouldn't be getting hit by UTilt when klaw-hopping, that sounds like poor horizontal spacing. BAir and retreating FAirs are the real threat.

You didn't write anything about firebreath, it's actually somewhat useful. If you're at the ledge of the stage, (with your back to the ledge) the worst thing Dedede can do to you is smash DI into you and BAir/NAir. Because of Dedede's very poor aerial mobility, Bowser can run before Dedede jumps over the fire. Just be careful not to use it in a way that can get you hit by a gordo toss.

Dedede's swallow doesn't really come up much in this matchup because Bowser wants to avoid shielding near Dedede as much as possible, but I still suggest practicing rolling to the other side of Dedede and grabbing him when he attempts to wavebounce his Neutral B.

I would add Castle Siege to the stages I'd consider banning, specially over Delfino. On Delfino it's easier to camp out the bad transformations and the platforms during the transitional parts help out with klaw hopping. Halberd is pretty bad too. Not as bad as Delfino but IMO still worse than Pictochat.

If infinites are legal I would rather play on Brinstar than Battlefield, because of the ledge/platform infinite. If they're banned, go to whichever you feel more comfortable in.

Anything I didn't mention I agree with.
 

Cassius.

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Oh **** lmao I DID forget about CS. I was wondering if I wrote something about it, but I didn't. Meh. And I didn't realize that it also works on the ledge...i thought there was some weird condition that had to be met. oh well. It's more or less banned in NY so my Dedede experience may be different from a lot of other Bowsers.

Jay when you get a chance, add my writeup and Flayl's extra tidbits to the Dedede section. I think if we do it like this we'll get it done...eventually. lol

I've been procrastinating on the MK part but life's been calling me for a bit. I promise it'll be done before the new year...lol
 

CaLibUr_1337

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I can probably do a Marth write up of my own before New Years. Mind you if you guys don't like it then feel free to edit my work haha.
 

Flameleon

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-*Here lies a Mario who has become a fan of Bowser since his PROMOTION as a Ltier now and as a Ltier fan, he lurks around here just for the universal knowledge sake, so, don't mind him* -
 

Cassius.

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Going to work on that MK post right now.

After I get cornbread.

But seriously, I'm editing it in the next 5 minutes.

doing this tomorrow when i get up


idk when im gonna finish
 

CaLibUr_1337

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Marth

Ratio: 45-55 40-60
Ok so this is my first write up on any kind of matchup whatsoever. So please exuse me if it doesn't seem adequate and anyone is welcome to edit it :p Anyways here goes:

Bowser. He's a fatty who excels at surviving attacks that would KO other characters and in general is a very defensive character who excels and punishing opponents. Every Bowser main knows this. So on paper Bowser should have a pretty easy time against anyone without a projectile to outcamp him right? Well this is somewhat true in this matchup and if it wasn't for Marth's tipper moves, I personally think this matchup would be between 45-55 50-50.

"In my opinion, Bowser doesn't do that badly against Marth. In fact, I believe that Marth is his better matchups. That's not saying much though, since all of Bowser's matchups are usually not in his favor."
Mreh
So what makes Marth have the advantage? Putting tippered moves aside for a moment, Marth is just simply better at spacing than Bowser. Sure he has to approach which does bring out Bowser's defensive to game to nearly the highest level but Marth has more options for mixing it up and is more agile. For example Bowser will be using F-tilt a lot for spacing where as Marth can use D-tilt, the rare f-tilt, Fair and even F-Smash isn't that bad as long as it's not overused and at tipper range. Also let's not forget that Side-B which has transparent piority and can hit us about 7 times if we're in a bad spot and depending on how Marth exucutes the move since for every swing, the Marth player can input up-B, down-B and side-B again. Since Bowser is big, he is a bigger target to get hit by this.
Below are more quotes from Merh:
"First of all, we all know that Bowser is a defensive wall. He is not a character that has a need to approach anyone, he's a character that reacts to what his opponent does and punishes their mistakes. Since Marth lacks a projectile, he is forced to approach, and that's when Bower's defensive game goes into full swing. If Marth's overly aggressive and are unfamiliar with the matchup, he will lose, simply because Bowser ***** anyone who's overly aggressive.

If Marth doesn't space his attacks properly, he'll be hit by a Fortress OoS, and that totally *****. If he spaces even more badly, he'll be met with a grab. As we all know, Bowser can do all sorts of stuff to Marth out of a grab. If Marth gets a ground release, you can grab him again or Klaw him, which is probably your best choice due to its large damage output. You can even Bowser Bomb him out of a grab release, which is even more deadly. Death at 85% is definately not cool for Marth. If he gets a jump release, then that's a free Fair for you.

Obviously, Bowser should spend as much time grounded as possible. You'll get ***** in the air.

Also, I like using the Fsmash as an edgeguard. It seems silly, but a lot of Marth users try to Fair through this. Even more so if they're planking. It's actually possible to hit a Marth who's grabbing the ledge with the Fsmash while outside of his Dolphin Slash range. It's awesome. (never going to happen, but I love it)"

Mreh

Also Below is a quote from Pierce7d, a Marth player who gives his 2 cents on the matchup.

"DO NOT shy away from your ftilt. It's SO easy to punish Dancing Blade, just shield. That being said, ftilt angled either straight or up will **** Marth's face if he approaches from the air. You need your ftilt. Marth's will not be ftilt heavy, because our Ftilt has pretty ugly after lag in comparison to other options we have on the ground. If you shield it, you can counter attack.

You also need to watch out for Nair. Marth really can't kill for his life. He MUST tipper to K.O. Bowser if your DI is any kind of decent. I might be able to gimp you, but it's really stupidly hard, and I'll either have to spike, or get you to 150%. That being said, Marth's NAIR is an excellent tool. I tend to attack Bowser's forehead with Nair, and pull away, to chip at his shield. The second time I do this consecutively, if I aimed it right, the second hit of the Nair WILL shield stab, and I'll tipper K.O. you.

Also, Boswer is a huge target, and Marth is awesome at juggling. Make sure your DI and Smash DI are TIGHT before entering this match-up, or I will combo you like it's Melee.

Your Fair is also very good. Just because ours is better doesn't mean don't use yours. A little Klaw Bouncing is good too, because it messes with Marth's spacing, and forces him to play more aggressively, which Bowser likes a lot. Both characters have a Dragon Punch, so be careful of getting K.O.ed by Dolphin Slash. You want to DI it UP. The most important thing is to not be hyper-predictable.

If you shield a Dancing Blade, I would advise instead of Fortressing everytime, shield drop dtilt sometimes. Bowser's dtilt is frikken strong, and unlike fortress, can go a long way to gimping Marth if he doesn't DI it right. Also, the DI for fortress and Dtilt are opposite, so a Marth expecting fortress and suddenly getting blasted by Dtilt can really get screwed up.

IIRC, your Uair is amazing. Bait an airdodge, and score hyper early K.O.s with this.

Don't fsmash at the edge. We have counter. Now, if you see a Marth about to counter, just charge the fsmash, and voila, homemade rapesauce. Don't charge prematurely though, or our counter is guaranteed. Dtilt is a lovely edgeguard option.

I love this match, because it really is the knight vs. the dragon. Merry Christmas everyone!"

Pierce7d

I thought I'd get the quotes out of the way first then add my 2 cents afterwards. (Note: these are from Mid 2008.) In a nutshell UP-B Oos, F-tilt, Up-tilt and Fair will be your best friends in this match. Oh and Klaw but Klaw is good in nearly every one of Bowser's matchups. :p
On the Defense:
If Marth decides that he is just gonna pull out 2 fairs in 1 short hop and call it a day then he has another thing coming. If Marth does this when you have the lead just sit there. Whatever you do DON'T APPROACH when in the lead. Ok so you can away with it sometimes in this matchup compared to say versing Metaknight but that's not the point. Anyway if Marth is in the lead Fair camping you these are your options:
Short flame Bursts. While this works, don't overuse it or you will eat a counter or Marth will DI into you and up-B if you hold it for too long.







At the end of the day Steel sums everything up quite nicely.
"marth has a sword, you don't. 60-40"
Steel

Still not quite finished and needs some more editing but I'd thought I'd post what is done so far. Feel free to add any input.
 

Uncle

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Man, what happened to this thread?

Anyway, Calibur's post included pretty much everthing about Bowser/Marth that needed to be said, imo. Does anybody have anything else to add? If not, can we agree on a ratio? The front page currently says 40/60. That seems acceptable.

Then again, 45/55 does look more appropriate, at least to me. It's definitely in Marth's favor, but we can clearly handle his onslaught. 40/60 would imply a soft counter, and everything I've read about the MU really doesn't make it seem like that's the case. My own Marth experience doesn't make me feel that way, either. Granted, I'm not a high-level Bowser, and I've hardly faced high-level Marths (mostly mid-level ones).

At best, I've faced one good Marth in a tourney match (Chaz, power-ranked Marth from Florida). There's also Kadaj (PRed Marth from my state), but I haven't done Bowser/Marth with him before. As a side note, I've also friendlied Dr. Peepee's Marth (Yes, the Melee player, he occasionally plays Brawl and *****).

Regardless of ratio, I believe that this is one of the most enjoyable MUs in the game. Like Pierce said, it's the knight vs. the dragon. There are no projectiles, ridiculous chaingrabs (There are cgs, but they're not of the ridiculous kind), and other miscellaneous crap of retardedness to worry about. It's just a pure battle of grace and steel vs. beastly might.

*salutes Marth, and his players*
 

MrEh

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Here's how you fight Marth.

1. Punch him in the face when he jumps at you
2. Fsmash him everytime he swings.

And then Marth gets you offstage and you cry. lol
 

Cassius.

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i havent had time since i started the mk writeup to even do anything. i've been bogged with college ****/sats...my bad. ill get to it eventually
 

Zigsta

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I play the Bowser-Marth MU a lot. In fact, it's the MU I practice the most, haha.

Like MrEh said, punch him in the face and learn to space fsmash. I get so many fsmashes against Marth, bahaha.

If Marth gets Counter happy, it's a free fsmash or Klaw or GR CG. It's also fun to hit Countering Marth with hit one of Bowser Bomb--it activates the Counter and leaves him open for the second hit. Tasty.

Just know that when Marth gets you offstage, you're gonna take a lot of damage. Onstage, though, this MU's straight up even. Bowser also does a solid job of keeping Marth on the ledge.

This is definitely 60-40 Marth's favor, just because he's really, really good at ****** us when we're on the ledge/offstage.
 

Uncle

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I suppose I'll start things off by briefly outlining the MU, and we can go into more detail from there.

-We chaingrab the hell out of him.

-He chaingrabs the hell out of us.

-We're heavy.

-He's heavy.

-We have plenty of kill power and the almighty Klaw.

-He has an aerial supremacy that makes many characters cry, and can really rack up our %.

-Neither of us have a highly reliable gimp option to speak of, IIRC.

This MU SEEMS even in multiple regards. Both characters can punish each other severely with their evil grabs. What puts it in Wario's favor is the fact that he's better-equipped to avoid our grabs than we are to avoid his. Let's not forget the obvious fact that if Wario gets a lead, Bowser will have a very hard time getting it back. Wario really makes Bowser look like a slug in the air, and the big guy isn't even slow in the air! That serves as a testament to Wario's awesome air game.

Overall, I'm thinking 40/60 here. 35/65 seems too harsh for a MU where Wario can get wrecked if he's not careful.
 

Cassius.

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this is a matchup where grab releasing HAS to be nothing but top-notch. you need to make something of every grab you get, because you won't get many off of a good wario...well, you're not supposed to at least.

i think 40/60 is fine.

and uh....ill have my mk writeup finished by tonight or at some point during tomorrow. my paper is finally done so i can actually make progress with this
 

MrEh

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The matchup is pretty unwinnable when Wario decides that he wants to run away and chaingrab us all day.
 

Uncle

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It looks like there's still more work to be done here. I was thinking of reviving discussion again by briefly reviewing the current MU ratios we have. I'll give my gut feeling on each ratio.

35-65 :metaknight: Fine
40-60 :snake: Fine
35-65 :diddy: Fine
45-55 :falco: 40-60
45-55 :wario: 40-60
40-60 :marth: Fine
25-75 :popo: 20-80
40-60 :olimar: Fine
40-60 :pika: Fine
40-60/(inf) 20-80 :dedede: Fine
40-60 :gw: Fine
45-55 :lucario: Fine
40-60 :zerosuitsamus: Fine
40-60 :toonlink: Fine
40-60 :kirby: 45-55
50-50 :fox: 45-55
40-60 :rob: 45-55
40-60 :pit: Fine
40-60 :peach: 45-55
40-60 :dk: 45-55
50-50 :luigi: 45-55
50-50 :wolf: 45-55
55-45 :sonic: 45-55
50-50 :ike: Fine
50-50 :sheik: Fine
45-55 :ness: 50-50
40-60 :007::pt: 45-55
65-35 :002::pt: 55-45
55-45 :006::pt: 55-45
45-55 :yoshi: 40-60
50-50 :lucas: Fine
50-50 :mario: Fine
55-45 :falcon: Fine
45-55 :samus: 40-60
60-40 :jiggs: 55-45
50-50 :link: Fine
40-60 :zelda: 45-55
60-40 :ganondorf: 55-45

Which MUs are in the most need of writeups and/or ratio changes right now? Do you agree or disagree with my ratios? Should we switch to the -/+ 1-4 system currently used by the BBR?
 

CaLibUr_1337

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I think IC's are worse than D3. Seriously. At least with D3 we can klaw and if we grab we can use some of our own Chain grabbing bs. :D

Tha above does not work against IC's and when we get grabbed we lose a stock 99% of the time :(

Ganon should stay 60-40. It's so easy to land grabs and not get hit by his power. However getting chocked is annoying to say the least if the ganon can tech chase really well. Also Flame gimping ganon is hilarious.

I can't really comment on anything else but I'm interested in why you think Peach is 45-55 uncle. I've played against a really good Peach and I must say when Peach spaces well it's quite frustrating.
 

Uncle

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Bowser's advantages
-Lives longer
-Kills earlier
-Superior range

Peach's advantages
-Projectiles (turnips)
-Can juggle Bowser well
-Fares better offstage

Generally, I agree with what's already been said about this MU by Peach and Bowser mainers in the past. My opinion isn't really different, I just don't consider Peach's advantage as severe as a 60-40. She really has to work hard for the kill, and her projectile game, while nice, doesn't make the approach TOO difficult for Bowser, unlike Falco for instance.

Overall: She wins by being more able to control the pace of the match, but that control isn't hard to overturn.
 

MrEh

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Eh, I think the BBR ratios are fine honestly. Even with adjustments from the other mains, it never really deviated that much from the Bowser Panel's opinions.
 

Uncle

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Eh, I think the BBR ratios are fine honestly. Even with adjustments from the other mains, it never really deviated that much from the Bowser Panel's opinions.
I agree with most of what the BBR MU chart says myself. My post was primarily meant to call attention to the fact that we still need discussion/writeups on numerous MUs, as well as better organization of them on the front page. Something needs to be done about the ratios on the front page too, because a few of them are hilariously off-kilter (Bowser beats Sonic!). Either they need an update, we replace them with the BBR ratings, or we just scrap them. Mostly though, we need MU writeups/discussion, once again.

This thread (the front page especially) is a depressing mix of outdated and/or incomplete information. I'd like to solve that problem with action, but I can't do it all by myself. I once thought that we had nearly all the information Bowser players could ever need, and I was wrong.
 

MrEh

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I'm all for people doing writeups, but it's just that...damn. The effort required.

Does any board even have a complete set of accurate writeups? Kudos to them.
 

Uncle

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Yeah, it's tough as hell, which is why we need all the manpower we can get. :dizzy:

I don't think any of the character boards have a complete set yet, which further supports what you said.

Maybe Bowser can be the first. Now wouldn't that be something? :awesome:
 
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