A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[B!squick]

Snake is 70:30 in our favor. True facts.

 

[Uncle]

Snake sucks, all he can do is tilt and throw 'nades. Just get him up in the air and **** him. What a ****ty character, bottom tier status.

In other news, I've been thinking of ideas for the front page design that I'll be implementing quite soon, so stay tuned.

Limit, I still want that panel postbit, btw.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I would like advice on n00b Ikes, please. They're hard to play if ALL they do is jabjabjabjabjab SMASH ATTACK. ):
Sometimes I can't help but think fighting a n00bish spammy player is harder to play than someone who uses skill. It makes me feel butthurt too.

 

[Dre89]

Playing patient and thinking consciously often defeats noob play. Sometimes the problem against noobs is autopiloting because you know they're bad and then you run into all of their stupid stuff.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

...That's exactly what I've been doing. There was this time, though, where I played a n00b gaw with my own and was able to 3-stock because I played patiently and cautiously...on wifi, but you're more prone to eating smash attacks there, so it's alright.

I did stupid things when I fought a friend the other day (he's the n00b Ike). He wouldn't stop spamming jab when up close, he would try to approach with a F-Air, but I would punish with a shield grab every time, and then when I was at the edge or coming back to the platform he would charge the F-Smash.

 

[Zigsta]

Firebreath beats noob Ikes. Keep your distance and play safe.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Thank you, guys.

I hope Uncle comes back to update this soon. I have a 2-day tournament on June.

 

[Dre89]

Spaced firebreath is pretty good in general against anyone who doesn't SDI. I wouldn't recommend using it though because then you'll have a bad habbit against good players.

 

[Zigsta]

Firebreath is actually great against Ike in general. It's not a bad move.

 

[Uncle]

The best way to use firebreath in any MU is simply to test your opponent early on, and take a quick mental note of the outcome.

They don't SDI? Great! Now I have a highly damaging tool at my disposal.

They do SDI? All right, I'll just use well-spaced small bursts sparingly as a harassment tool, just to force them to change their position or do something potentially unsafe.

Either way, as long as you remain mentally aware of your firebreathing, and how your opponent reacts to it, you won't develop a bad habit of holding down firebreath on people all the time.

 

[B!squick]

..... When did you become a mod?

 

[Zigsta]

Just a few days ago. Uncle's helping out around here now.

 

[MrEh]

How dare Ike try to space you out with aerials.

Blow fire. Run up to him and UpB.

 

[Cassius.]

So it's looking like:

-4: |
-3:
-2: | | |
-1: | |
0:
1:
2:

That's our current matchup spread based on the 2.0 version of the MU chart that Zigsta, KingKong, Vex, MrEh and I were a part of creating.

If you need anything else just let me know, I'm not really sure on what else is supposed to be here.

edit: the characters are not placed in alphabetical order. they are placed in order of difficulty based on a compromise between Zigsta, MrEh and myself. (Vex and KK were inactive during this period)

the dividers are used to separate certain characters into their own realms of difficulty. For example, both Dedede and ICs are -4, but all (3) of us agreed that ICs are nearly 100 times harder to deal with than Dedede. Even though ICs are first on the "-4" list, we all felt that it was necessary to make that distinction.

Keep in mind we made that decision nearly five months ago, so it could be different.

if you need to see the discussion between us so you know how this final spread was created, I can grab that. I'll post what match-up discussions actually occurred in the panel, because not all of the characters were discussed...at least, I don't remember.

I have to get ready for an AP exam so I can't do it now.

 

[Uncle]

Yeah, the discussions are what I'm really looking for. The MU spread you guys agreed on is already available in the BBR MU chart thread. Thanks for explaining the dividers, though. I figured that's what they were for, and take your time in digging up the discussions.

Anyway, good luck on the AP exam, man. Tests like those ain't no walk in the park.

 

[Cassius.]

Here's the Cycle history, I'll get to the discussions tonight because there's a lot to paste for some of them. I'll probably just give the most important parts..

Cycle One:
(DONE)
vs -2/+3 -> -2/+2
vs -2/+3 -> -2/+2
vs +2/-1 -> +1/-1
vs +2/-1 -> +1/-1
vs +1/0 -> 0

Cycle Two:
(DONE)
vs -1/+2 -> -2/+2
vs -1/+2 -> -2/+2
vs +2/-3 -> UNRESOLVED (Decided as +2/-2 by a private panel)
vs +1/0 -> UNRESOLVED (Decided as 0 by a private panel)
vs +2/-1 -> UNRESOLVED (Decided as +1/-1 by a private panel)

Cycle Three:
(DONE)
vs -1/+2 -> -1/+1
vs 0/+2 -> -1/+1
vs +1/-2 -> +2/-2

Cycle Four:
(DONE)
vs -1/+2 -> -2/+2
vs +3/-4 -> +4/-4
vs 0/+1 -> -1/+1
vs +1/0 -> 0

You can probably tell that the first and second numbers are what each character wanted respectively, and the final number was the concluded ratio. The primary character is the group that wanted to match-up to change. In some instances, both characters wanted a match-up ratio to be changed.

The "unresolved" matchups were handled by a private panel. I kinda forgot what the procedure was for that...I think Zigsta was on it, but he wasn't allowed to vote on match-ups that concerned his main character (Bowser, obviously). I think that was the same for every person on the private panel.

 

[Zigsta]

Yes, I was on the final panel along with dabuz, ESAM, Krystedez, Marc, aisight, and Red Ryu.

 

[Uncle]

Ha, it's interesting how the ZSS, IC, Olimar panels were the only ones to decide on a more positive ratio than the Bowser panel did.

 

[Cassius.]

Oh, I think the ZSS one was a mistake on Marc's part. I remember us discussing it and then Nick was like "whoa this never happened."

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, ZSS was a typo. We both agreed on the same ratio.

 

[MrEh]

Yoshi is so rage inducing.

 

[Zigsta]

Yeah, Yoshi's pretty bad. I think he has potential to become a -2, but I haven't been able to play a Yoshi since I moved.

 

[Uncle]

Heh, I know what you guys mean. One of my friends who plays Yoshi (Killanator) first showed me the horrors of this MU. It's definitely bad, but I'm not sure it's in the same league as MK and Wario, because those guys are ridiculous for us. -2 might be more appropriate.

 

[Dre89]

Why are Wario and Yoshi particularly bad?

Also I don't see how puff is +2. I know she gets KOd by GR uair at around 60% but Bowser is the easiest char to drill rest and more importantly he's easy to run away from.

 

[Cassius.]

Okay, to answer your first question, Yoshi has a chaingrab on us that can bring us from one end to the stage to offstage, and consequently in a 50-50 situation where we either get back and have to repeat the process, or die.

He can also camp pretty decently and force us to approach, and he has a couple of frametraps, but everyone has that on Bowser.

Wario has a CG that works until 180, and it's pretty difficult to hit Wario--a good one at least. Bowser has to make every single grab count, but when the grabs become obscure, it hurts one of Bowser's main features.

Jigglypuff can run away from Bowser, but actually hitting Bowser is extremely difficult, and each hit Bowser gets brings her closer to death percents. You literally only have to hit Jigglypuff like...6 or 7 times and she's already on the verge of death, whereas she has to hit us a couple of times or run away for forever to force any sort of change in the match. The imbalance in weight and survival percents is huge.

 

[Zigsta]

Jiggs has a hard time drill Resting Bowser.

 

[MrEh]

Jiggs won't even get the chance to land a drill when Bowser is already spinning.

 

[B!squick]

Besides, I read a Puff guide long ago that had a list of some characters you just didn't use rest on because of how awful the implications of whiffing it are. Bowser was one of them.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Rest kills Bowser at like 100~% too.

 

[MrEh]

You miss a Rest against Bowser?

Prepare your anus.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

F-Smash to the face.

Nevermind Jiggaly's face is about it's whole body. x3

 

[Uncle]

I haven't forgotten my new responsibility, guys. My first move will happen next week, and next week starts tomorrow.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Great. We'll be waiting.

 

[Z'zgashi]

Why are Wario and Yoshi particularly bad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaDEsyaN2YA

 

[Flayl]

If you're implying that's how the matchup goes I will smash you (not really)

 

[Deleted member 189823]

When is this going to start? :E

 

[Uncle]

As soon as I have my new format fully planned out.

Admittedly, I haven't been dedicating much time to planning it (Busy with work, life, and all), but that's going to change this week.

 

[B!squick]

Updates are for quiters. :B

 

[Deleted member 189823]

It's not a gaem it's my lief
ain't gonna live forever

 

[Uncle]

The end (of the wait) is near.......