A King's Quest For Respect: The Bowser Matchup Thread

[Flayl]

Feel free to theorycraft and ignore what all the good Bowsers did, nobody's stopping you

 

[EthereaL]

I haven't read this thread, and that's usually a big pet peeve of mine.

However, the "Fox 50-50" match-up is where I stopped reading. That is just...laughable.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Dre, you're not alone. It's a universal struggle for Bowsers everywhere to deal with that sort of thing. We feel your pain, and that's why I said that a good MK that knows the MU can't possibly lose to Bowser.

In fact, that's the biggest problem with Bowser and low tiers, in general. Most of their (limited) success comes from people not respecting or knowing what they're capable of. Once they wake up, though, they'll put us to rest with their better characters. Sure, you could say "I'll just improve and outplay them all," but chances are, they're improving too!

That's true. There's this MK player who's pretty decent at using him, and the reason I've beaten him a few times is because he has admitted that he doesn't understand Bowser, but that he doesn't worry much against him either.

Bowser offers next-to-nothing to the player who wants to win. We only play him because we love him, and for some of us, love is all we need.

I just have to quote this.
;A;

I haven't read this thread, and that's usually a big pet peeve of mine.

However, the "Fox 50-50" match-up is where I stopped reading. That is just...laughable.

It's not that laughable...but I don't really see it either. Fox's Up-Smash can kill Bowser at ~100%.

 

[Cassius.]

However, the "Fox 50-50" match-up is where I stopped reading. That is just...laughable.

Great to know!!

 

[Deleted member 189823]

How are you supposed to fight peach? I find it kinda hard because she floats, has great priority and speed. The good thing is that she'll have trouble killing me.

I'll be uploading some replays soon. (:

 

[Z'zgashi]

Klaw. OoS Fortress. Ftilt. etc. Watch for her gliding dairs and such and try and keep at a distance to where she cant hit you immediately but where she doesnt feel safe pulling veggies. Then try and get her with fairs, klaw, etc when possible, and try not to die. Also, I should add, at low percent, if she gets you with something, that will usually lead to like, 50%+, but thats fine so long as you dont fall into her stuff later cuz if you play it right you'll live to like, 180% or more. Also, play really patient and play footsies until you see something you can punish.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Yeah, I've been using Fortress alot, but I thought I was being repetetive by always using that self-defense mechanism to get her off me. It sometimes worked to get rid of her D-Air gliding. And I did live a few times above 180%...

Anyway, I've been finding hard to Klaw her because she interrupts it with those annoying jabs.

 

[Uncle]

I haven't read this thread, and that's usually a big pet peeve of mine.

However, the "Fox 50-50" match-up is where I stopped reading. That is just...laughable.

Lol, don't listen to the front page of our MU thread. It hasn't been touched in ages.

In general, refer to the official MU chart 2.0 for Bowser MU scores, which are fairly correct. Most Bowsers consider the Fox MU to be -2 for them, and I'm inclined to agree.

Also, for Peach, I find that utilt is a little more useful than usual in this MU. Peach likes to float around, and we like to stay grounded, so there will be good opportunities to use it if you play your cards right. It helps even more if you know how to pivot utilt.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

What is a pivot U-tilt?

 

[Uncle]

Basically, when you're standing facing someone, you'll quickly turn around, then do a utilt to hit them. Also called a reverse u-tilt.

 

[Z'zgashi]

turn around before you utilt so your back is facing them

 

[Dre89]

Feel free to theorycraft and ignore what all the good Bowsers did, nobody's stopping you

I never said not to do that stuff, that stuff is just the fundamentals. That's just the stuff people new to Bowser should learn, then they should learn more advanced stuff.


Also pivot utilt is good for controlling the space Peach likes to pressure from but then you've probably staled his best KO move other than GR dtilt. Grabs can be hard to land on Peach since she probably won't want to contest you on the ground and she's difficult to pivot grab if she spaces her aerials well.

 

[EthereaL]

Lol, don't listen to the front page of our MU thread. It hasn't been touched in ages.

In general, refer to the official MU chart 2.0 for Bowser MU scores, which are fairly correct. Most Bowsers consider the Fox MU to be -2 for them, and I'm inclined to agree.

Ah. My train of thought was:

Usmash kills at about 100%. Lasers, speed advantage, Bair, Drill...Bowser has Fair and Fortress...

-2 sounds optimistic, but it's Bowser.

Anyway, good luck y'all.

 

[Cassius.]

I'm sorry, but you really sound like you know absolutely nothing about Bowser.

That's truly laughable. Good luck to you too.

no, that's really rude. Forgive me. But not really.

UpSmash also doesn't kill Bowser at 100. Secondly, if my knowledge of Fox is decent enough, I'm pretty sure he can't do a shine combo like that, at least. Has something extremely dramatic changed? Have I really been gone from Brawl for that long that he can do multiple shines?

Lasers don't hurt Bowser in any sort of way. They force an approach, but rarely. They have a fixed distance, and DAir really is not that good against Bowser lol

 

[Flayl]

Ah. My train of thought was:

shine > bufferdash > shine > bufferdash > shine > bufferdash > shine > ledgegrab combos from the middle of BF at 0% > gimp. Usmash kills at about 100%. Lasers, speed advantage, Bair, Drill...Bowser has Fair and Fortress...

-2 sounds optimistic, but it's Bowser.

Anyway, good luck y'all.

 

[Cassius.]

Okay, So I was right then.

I just needed to make sure I wasn't the only one who was kdfwhldgksjlhkldsllhg'd by that post.

LOOOOOOOOL

 

[Uncle]

Also pivot utilt is good for controlling the space Peach likes to pressure from but then you've probably staled his best KO move other than GR dtilt. Grabs can be hard to land on Peach since she probably won't want to contest you on the ground and she's difficult to pivot grab if she spaces her aerials well.

I didn't mean to use utilt regularly for spacing, even though it could easily work that way. Bowser has more than enough kill options to make that work, although not all of them are reliable. My post was going for the assertion that you should use utilt during the right "opportunities" (like killing), anyway.

As for your post, EtherreaL, I lol at Fox being any worse than -2 for us. He may force us to approach, rack up our damage easily, and punish us so hard just for the slightest mistake, but the bottom line is that he's still dealing with a tanky behemoth. Our greater range, our power, our OOS game, and his light weight force him to play with caution too.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I'm sorry, but you really sound like you know absolutely nothing about Bowser.

That's truly laughable. Good luck to you too.

no, that's really rude. Forgive me. But not really.

UpSmash also doesn't kill Bowser at 100

No, it really does. :| (Unless I haven't learned how to DI attacks with horizontal knockback yet).

But you're the better Bowser player, you've surely experienced it firsthand to be able to tell.

Oh yeah, thanks about the useful tips against Peach. I'm going to U-Tilt consistently with Tap Jump on. ):

 

[B!squick]

Ah. My train of thought was:

shine > bufferdash > shine > bufferdash > shine > bufferdash > shine > ledgegrab combos from the middle of BF at 0% > gimp. Usmash kills at about 100%. Lasers, speed advantage, Bair, Drill...Bowser has Fair and Fortress...

-2 sounds optimistic, but it's Bowser.

Anyway, good luck y'all.

This is why match-up data ends up skewed. I'm so glad you had no part in the cross board discussion.

Lol, don't listen to the front page of our MU thread. It hasn't been touched in ages.

First of all, there's NOTHING to update sans write ups which no one will read anyway. Second, I'm more than a little tired of people saying "lol, dish regard or mach up tread." I've said it on numerous occasions and I'm tired of repeating myself: If you think you can do better, be my ****ing guest. And as there have yet to be any takers...

 

[B!squick]

Crash boards was crashing.

 

[B!squick]

Crash boards was crashing.

 

[B!squick]

Crash boards was crashing.

 

[Uncle]

First of all, there's NOTHING to update sans write ups which no one will read anyway. Second, I'm more than a little tired of people saying "lol, dish regard or mach up tread." I've said it on numerous occasions and I'm tired of repeating myself: If you think you can do better, be my ****ing guest. And as there have yet to be any takers...

Whoa, whoa, whoa, I wasn't bashing you or anything of the sort, if you're thinking that. All I was doing was redirecting our guest (EthereaL) to a more current source of Bowser MU ratios.

As for there not being any takers.........

I would actually be interested in taking it off you, dude. I don't see any major changes happening either, but things could use elaboration and organization. I'm thinking about it........

No offense Uncle, but if I had to choose I'd rather hand things over to Flayl if he wants it.

None taken.

Flayl is a perfect choice.

I was just showing my interest. If he wants the job, then he is more deserving of it than I am.

I don't actually want the extra work, so if you can prove you're capable of doing a good job you should definitely keep it.

And now, we need a discussion. Can I suggest Fox?

This happened a year ago, yet none of us followed through with it. I'm still interested, btw.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I would do it, but I lack experience. :B

It would be good if Uncle could continue this if he's willing to update frequently.

 

[Cassius.]

I would do it, but I can't even keep up with the tournament results thread. I gave up on that **** lol

I mean, for the matchup thread here, all it takes is one edited post with the final results from the MU chart 2.0.

The explanations can come

Spoiler

never

soon, but if you need that postbit with the mu info from the chart, I can get it for you from the private panel.

 

[B!squick]

Alright, I'm gonna contact a mod to give thread ownership over to Uncle. I don't know him that well, but I've long since stopped caring. Please direct all complaints to him from this point forward, thank you.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

I am sorry it has to end this way.

 

[B!squick]

@Limit: That would be great if you could get that. I think it'll be nice to have all the important data neatly organized on the front page, and to eventually have discussions again, lol.

@Jay: That sounds good to me. I guess I'm the only one who's up for it, since Limit, Flayl, and Zigsta (afaik) don't want it. I'm willing to bear the burden.

Just so you know Uncle, I'm not mad at you specifically, it's just that... I've heard that before. ._.

 

[Uncle]

I've heard it before too, man. If we did a search through this thread right now, we'd see a lot of that, thus my loling.

We try, we fail, we try, we fail, we try again, we fail again, and we continue to keep on trying. I still think it's worth a shot (crazy, I know), as long as there are still Bowser players. What we need is a concentrated burst of effort to break this ****ty cycle of ours.

 

[Cassius.]

I just really don't think there's a point on discussing it because nothing stagnant has changed about what Bowser does or what he can do.

Until Bowsers or other characters find something that seems interesting or unheard of, then we can talk about it. Like, it'd be extremely redundant to run through all of the characters again.

Be my guest, it'll probably happen anyway but I just don't see a point.

 

[EthereaL]

UpSmash also doesn't kill Bowser at 100. Secondly, if my knowledge of Fox is decent enough, I'm pretty sure he can't do a shine combo like that, at least. Has something extremely dramatic changed? Have I really been gone from Brawl for that long that he can do multiple shines?

Lasers don't hurt Bowser in any sort of way. They force an approach, but rarely. They have a fixed distance, and DAir really is not that good against Bowser lol

Lasers don't hurt Bowser in any sort of way. They force an approach, but rarely. They have a fixed distance, and DAir really is not that good against Bowser lol

Oh, boy, where to begin?

I literally laughed at your "lasers rarely force an approach." Fox forces almost every character in the game to approach (hint: Bowser is not one of the characters he doesn't).

Bar perfect SDI > bufferFortress OOS, Bowser gets shine combo'd, unless the frame test was done wrong (klol)

Dair is good against everyone. It leads into grab, Usmash, or Dsmash (although, with Bowser, I'm pretty sure he has to be within kill percent first, otherwise you can fortress out of it).

Fresh Usmash starts killing at around 100%. Sooner on stages with low ceilings, slightly later at higher ones. I think it's guaranteed at something around 130%, but I'm not sure of the exact percentage.

So...

 

[B!squick]

unless the frame test was done wrong

Sauce?

10chars

 

[Uncle]

I just really don't think there's a point on discussing it because nothing stagnant has changed about what Bowser does or what he can do.

Until Bowsers or other characters find something that seems interesting or unheard of, then we can talk about it. Like, it'd be extremely redundant to run through all of the characters again.

Be my guest, it'll probably happen anyway but I just don't see a point.

It's less about finding something new, and more about gathering and elaborating on what's been posted in the past.. I know that there are still some MUs for Bowser that have barely been talked about. I'd also like to get more input from other character boards, because their views matter too.

If you can get me that panel bit thing, that would be a great start.

 

[B!squick]

Oh Uncle. So young. So naive. You remind me of myself when I was your age.

*takes a drink*

This thread... it does things to you. Changes you. It opens your eyes...

*takes another drink*

And closes your heart.

*drinks*

You're a damned fool, Uncle. A damned fool.

 

[Uncle]

Well, Jay, I just so happen to be 25, so you must have been on this Earth for a pretty long time!

I'm not expecting change overnight, nor am I expecting anything reasonably quick. I'm going to approach this as pragmatically as I can. First off, we organize everything we have, and fill in any of the holes (and I KNOW there are holes). After that, if any new stuff is discovered or shared, we'll be in better shape to intercept it.

I look at other character boards, and I usually see better efforts being put into them (even for other low tier characters!) than what we've been putting into our board. I'm not asking for a one-day (or week, or month) revolution, I just want progress. We can work at a comfortable pace, because I know we all have lives.

I may be a damned fool, but I'm damn ready to embrace the challenge, much like how I embraced a damn bad character like Bowser. I can take it.........

 

[B!squick]

... Stop being older than me.

 

[Uncle]

Jay, thanks for giving me this opportunity. It must have been hard to give up ownership of this thread, especially to someone you don't know very well. All I can say is that you gave this thread to a responsible dude who will treat it well. I won't let you guys down.

Now, let's kick some *** in here................for Bowser.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

You have my word.

Now, where shall we begin (or continue)?

 

[Uncle]

You have my word.

Now, where shall we begin (or continue)?

I'm going to make some changes to the front page, first of all, and I'll need..........

The explanations can come

Spoiler

never

soon, but if you need that postbit with the mu info from the chart, I can get it for you from the private panel.

This.

 

[Deleted member 189823]

Looking back at the top of the MU chart, I am honestly surprised how Bowser-Snake is 40:60 and Bowser-Diddy Kong is only 35:45. I have alot of trouble with a good Snake player. (Enough to get 2-stocked)