A Guide to DI, Smash DI, C-stick DI, Teching and Crouch Cancelling --- Updated

[Metal Reeper]

Aren't TAS's pretty much just made from Action Replay? Or am I not even in the ballpark? I understand that TAS videos can consist of cuts in video and etc, but....I don't think Melee TAS's are.

 

[XkaruX]

Aren't TAS's pretty much just made from Action Replay? Or am I not even in the ballpark? I understand that TAS videos can consist of cuts in video and etc, but....I don't think Melee TAS's are.

Some people use action replay, but this is more like a pseudo TAS, because if you mess up, there's no way to go back and fix it.

Now some people are able to make TASes using the emulator and nothing else. jpleal10's perfect falcon match and my perfect team match were done without action replay.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Oh wow, what did you use for the perfect team match? Was that the Marth Falcon one? How long does it take to make one of those things? You should make a double fox one, or a fox/puff <3
I love TAS vids.

 

[XkaruX]

Oh wow, what did you use for the perfect team match? Was that the Marth Falcon one? How long does it take to make one of those things? You should make a double fox one, or a fox/puff <3
I love TAS vids.

Hehe, yeah, I think it's still the only perfect team match out there.
Anyway, these are done in dolphin, but because its really frustrating some times it can take a couple of days to complete a single match.

 

[Metal Reeper]

Oh wow that's crazy, well thanks for all the hard work because it was very entertaining <3

 

[SUNG475]

If I'm holding away on the gray stick while I'm being combo'd, can I smash DI the hits by using the C stick? Or does the C stick only affect ASDI? Or should it be the opposite where I hold the C stick away and use the gray stick to smash DI away as well? I always do the first method and thought I was smash DIing but I'm not sure anymore after reading this thread

 

[MasterShake]

Your first method will not work. C stick is ASDI only. Your second method is the right way to do it. Mad dumb, I know. Smash DI would be EAAAASY if you could use C stick.

 

[Sinji]

I claw the control stick for better results.

 

[choknater]

wow, you made that marth falcon team vid? that was so freaking amazing.

tas vids are works of art. i actually learned tactics inspired from the ylink vs 3 lvl 9's video.

(mainly, ledge hop, z drop waveland. <---- still gotta practice making this as instant as possible )

 

[P-99]

When I am using survival DI (to the stage and up) and try to SDI the hit with the Control Stick + ASDI with the C-Stick (to the stage) does the ASDI with the C-Stick overwrite my SDI from the Control Stick?

And if it does would I get better results by just SDI'ing with the Control Stick (even if it's harder) or still by DI'ing with the Control Stick + ASDI'ing with the C-Stick?

Hello Smashboards btw =D

EDIT: From what i have got now the ASDI with the C-Stick does not overwrite SDI but the ASDI by regular DI'ing with the Control Stick, is that right? Just need to have that confirmed and everything will be okay =D

 

[Strong Badam]

DIing with both sticks is always superior. It doesn't overwrite SDI; it adds

 

[Tee ay eye]

my perfect team match

YOU are the one who made the Marth/Falcon TAS video?

I love you so much.

I don't think you understand how much euphoria that video brought me. I was screaming like a girl even when watching it for like, the fifteenth time.

 

[Frame Perfect]

seriously xkarux, you are awesome.

 

[P-99]

DIing with both sticks is always superior. It doesn't overwrite SDI; it adds

thx Strong Bad your posts are also always superior just sayin' =D

 

[kailo34ce]

can we get an update on the OP for shield DI and platform nonsense?

 

[_eternal]

Awesome thread. Couple things I'm not 100% clear on:

- Does SDI only affect your movement during hitstun? So it's useful for avoiding things like Fox's uair's second hit, but not so useful for surviving a Rest?
- When does regular DI have to be input? Any time before knockback begins, like with throws?

 

[ajp_anton]

1. Yes.
2. After hitstun, on the first frame where you can no longer SDI.

 

[Strong Badam]

1. During hitlag, the action that occurs before knockback/hitstun starts.

 

[Sephirothxxx]

This is an awesome thread. I've been looking for something like this...

 

[_eternal]

Thanks guys. Gah, someday I'll stop mixing up hitstun and hitlag...

 

[Dan Salvato]

Does SDI only affect your movement during hitlag? So it's useful for avoiding things like Fox's uair's second hit, but not so useful for surviving a Rest?

If you're in the air while rested, you might be able to SDI toward the ground and tech it before you're launched off. This works for pretty much any attack; I've seen someone ground-tech Fox's upsmash.

 

[Strong Badam]

You can't really SDI down into the ground if you're aerial. The reason it works at low %'s is because people are CCing and DIing down, leaving them grounded after knockback so they can tech.

 

[ajp_anton]

My very untested theory on CC is that it subtracts a fixed amount of knockback (separately for vertical and horizontal?), and if the result is zero, you won't go anywhere.
I think you fall when the original knockback was strong enough to be techable.

Does someone know anything about this?

 

[leffen]

When you fall when actually crouching I'm pretty sure its caused by the move being strong enough to launch you off the ground even though you CC but weak enough so that your (A)SDI makes you hit the ground again.

 

[ajp_anton]

You can fall without any (A)SDI, just hold down.
A dair by CF will launch you off the ground at 0%, but nothing happens if you CC it. The move wasn't strong enough to be techable.
So far my theory holds, the move has to be techable, but the CC has to cancel it completely so you fall instead of leaving the ground.

 

[Tee ay eye]

My very untested theory on CC is that it subtracts a fixed amount of knockback (separately for vertical and horizontal?), and if the result is zero, you won't go anywhere.
I think you fall when the original knockback was strong enough to be techable.

Does someone know anything about this?

i've read in a few places (including a strong_bad post) that crouch canceling takes away 1/3 of knockback

 

[ajp_anton]

That could also be true. I just thought that when you don't leave the ground at all, something had to be subtracted so it becomes <0.
But maybe you need a certain amount of knockback to actually get someone to leave the ground, so if 1/3 is small enough you will stay on the ground.

 

[cpahanso]

I have some questions about SDI:

I understand the basics of what it does, I'm just confused about how it is performed.
Say you are hit by samus' charged plasma ball. You have 18 frames of 'frozen-ness' in which you can SDI. But what inputs are required to SDI? Obviously, you can just be holding left on the control stick before you get hit and have that SDI left for all those 18 frames. So does that mean you need to start with the control stick in neutral? Or is it just any CHANGE in control stick input that gets registered? Like, you're already holding left when you get hit, then you move it to up-and-left, and that gives you an SDI in that direction for that frame? Also, for multiple SDI's, how does it work? Do you need to go through neutral for a frame between each direction? Or do you just move to a different direction? And if you just move to a different direction, how far (angle of rotation) does the different direction have to be for it to register?

Sorry I know that's a mouthful, but I would really appreaciate help

 

[Strong Badam]

Holding doesn't SDI. Only smash inputs DURING hitlag ('frozen-ness' as you call it) cause SDI.
SDI is re-read upon rotation at two locations near each cardinal direction, about 10 degrees off in either direction for each, so 8 total places. It doesn't matter how far from your initial direction you've gone as long as you pass one of those points.

 

[cpahanso]

Thank you
That clears things up

 

[ajp_anton]

SDI is re-read upon rotation at two locations near each cardinal direction, about 10 degrees off in either direction for each, so 8 total places. It doesn't matter how far from your initial direction you've gone as long as you pass one of those points.

It's a little more complicated.

The SDI is re-read only if the direction is changed from one quadrant to another, OR from one axis into any other angle.

Or put in another way,
- You can't SDI in the same quadrant twice in a row (without going to neutral inbetween).
- When you're strictly inside a quadrant, its edges (the axes) are part of it and therefore similarly forbidden.
- When you're on an axis, you can go anywhere else.

When TASing, it's always better to start the SDI on an axis, because it doesn't really limit your next SDI. After that you will have to alternate between two quadrants for the rest of the SDIs.

 

[Tee ay eye]

That could also be true. I just thought that when you don't leave the ground at all, something had to be subtracted so it becomes <0.
But maybe you need a certain amount of knockback to actually get someone to leave the ground, so if 1/3 is small enough you will stay on the ground.

i don't know 100% sure if i'm right, but i know a lot more about melee physics than the average bear and a lot less about melee physics than the frame gurus:

i'm going to imagine that the reason that you don't leave the ground is because of ASDI down on frame 1 of knockback, which is also why you don't leave the ground whenever you... well... hold down (without crouching), since that should be a static value

so...

let's say the attack would normally send you up and away

if you're crouching, that'll be reduced to 2/3

then if you're holding down, your trajectory will be tilted downward, reducing your upward knockback even further

and then if your upward knockback in 1 frame is less than your downward movement from ASDI down, then you'll cling to the ground.

 

[Luxdabob]

This is extremely helpful and well explained. Thank you.

 

[Engo]

Might as well ask this here:

Recently I've(fox player) found a way to get out of IC's downthrow downair chaingrabs. I've always heard how you have to SDI away and down but what I do is simply hold down and away(I just hold it, I don't time anything) and then buffer a roll with the c stick. Is this SDI or ASDI? Is my friend not performing the cg properly and is that the only reason I seem to be escaping it so easily?

 

[BTmoney]

I would error on your friend is likely not spacing the hitstun correctly. However have no way of knowing for sure

 

[ant-d]

Phantom Hit DI

Why does it say you can DI phantom hits in this guide?
This normally is not possible (assuming a perfect phantom hit on an idle character).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMj2eU0MvI

^jigglypuff cannot do any DI here (excluding the bob-omb)

During a phantom hit there is no hit-lag for the attacking character, however the person being hit enters the hit-lag; the character freezes in place.

Unless you know something that I don't, of course.

You can't ever ASDI phantom hits. You can't SDI them either unless it happens while you're already in a damage/knockback/tumble animation

 

[-ACE-]

Might as well ask this here:

Recently I've(fox player) found a way to get out of IC's downthrow downair chaingrabs. I've always heard how you have to SDI away and down but what I do is simply hold down and away(I just hold it, I don't time anything) and then buffer a roll with the c stick. Is this SDI or ASDI? Is my friend not performing the cg properly and is that the only reason I seem to be escaping it so easily?

That is ASDI you just explained. I think he's not doing it properly but I'm not sure obviously. SDI must be input during hitlag. ASDI, in addition to the trajectory in which the move will send you, determines final trajectory of knockback (in the case of SHIELD ASDI, you will basically just move in the direction you're holding). As soon as you have input ASDI you can hold any direction to influence your position somewhat, which is directional DI.

 

[Mahie]

Why does it say you can DI phantom hits in this guide?
This normally is not possible (assuming a perfect phantom hit on an idle character).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hLMj2eU0MvI

^jigglypuff cannot do any DI here (excluding the bob-omb)

During a phantom hit there is no hit-lag for the attacking character, however the person being hit enters the hit-lag; the character freezes in place.

Unless you know something that I don't, of course.

You can definitely SDI phantom hits, I'm not sure about the conditions, but I've definitely done it and it was noticeable in the past.

 

[ant-d]

You can definitely SDI phantom hits, I'm not sure about the conditions, but I've definitely done it and it was noticeable in the past.

Interesting. Any video?

You can only SDI them if you were already in a knock-back/damage/tumble animation. Do you remember if you were?

 

[Mahie]

No I don't have videos but it happened this week, and it was something we weren't sure about either so when it happened we talked about it.

I was in stun after Falco's dair, and he tried to hit me again and only got a phantom hit in, after which I still went left and down-ish.

If it ever happens when I'm idle I'll try to pay attention to it.