A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[Garo]

Lack of Ganondorf was probably what bummed me out the most in BotW. Crazy to think that it's been over 10 years since his last appearance in a proper Zelda game. I'm honestly kind of worried that they're gonna phase him out completely with the new direction of the series which draws from the very beginning when there was only Ganon.

 

[King9999]

I was actually OK with a lack of Ganondorf in BOTW. They established Calamity Ganon right from the beginning, and he was a massive threat, so it wouldn't make sense for him to be in his lesser human form.

Like I said earlier though, it would be cool if they gave us a BOTW-inspired Dorf for Smash just to be consistent with the appearance of BOTW Link and (possibly) Zelda.

 

[Quillion]

IMO, Calamity Ganon was a huge wasted opportunity. He was introduced as Ganondorf having degenerated into a mindless mass of energy, yet practically nothing was done with that point. There's no explanation as to why he lost his mind and body. Did he wish it on the Triforce? Did years of resurrection do that to him? Nothing! And then when we see that he's trying to create a new body for himself as well as siphon Zelda's sacred power, we should have seen Ganondorf emerge from that cocoon, but then we still get the mindless beast.

It leads to him having virtually no presence in the story despite his alleged threat. The most he gets to do is spread his Malice around the world to reset all the enemies and collectibles, and that actually HELPS Link more than hurts.

Honestly, even after BotW, I don't even want them to explain how Ganon degenerated like that. That point hasn't really piqued my interest. I'd rather they just go back to Ganon being the intelligent sorceror.

 

[Morbi]

Lack of Ganondorf was probably what bummed me out the most in BotW. Crazy to think that it's been over 10 years since his last appearance in a proper Zelda game. I'm honestly kind of worried that they're gonna phase him out completely with the new direction of the series which draws from the very beginning when there was only Ganon.

Hopefully it is the opposite, maybe they will start actually using him now that they have had such a large period of time dedicated to "Ganon" or "Demise." I am surprised it has gone on this long, but eventually, if even just by pure chance, they might write a "narrative" that involves Ganondorf.

 

[Quillion]

Hopefully it is the opposite, maybe they will start actually using him now that they have had such a large period of time dedicated to "Ganon" or "Demise." I am surprised it has gone on this long, but eventually, if even just by pure chance, they might write a "narrative" that involves Ganondorf.

I'm almost convinced that should they write another story with Ganondorf, it's going to be a "Ganondorf III" as a successor to Ganondorf II in FSA. Ganondorf I's story has been completely played out, Ganondorf II didn't have much to him, and the only way to go new places with the character is to reincarnate him.

 

[DNeon]

I'm almost convinced that should they write another story with Ganondorf, it's going to be a "Ganondorf III" as a successor to Ganondorf II in FSA. Ganondorf I's story has been completely played out, Ganondorf II didn't have much to him, and the only way to go new places with the character is to reincarnate him.

And that would have made BotW a great place to do it since that's literally his objective that game.

 

[Grizzexploder]

I was actually OK with a lack of Ganondorf in BOTW. They established Calamity Ganon right from the beginning, and he was a massive threat, so it wouldn't make sense for him to be in his lesser human form.

Like I said earlier though, it would be cool if they gave us a BOTW-inspired Dorf for Smash just to be consistent with the appearance of BOTW Link and (possibly) Zelda.

like how we got TP Sheik even though she wasn't in TP (granted it was from concept art)

 

[Morbi]

like how we got TP Sheik even though she wasn't in TP (granted it was from concept art)

You never know, perhaps there IS Ganondorf concept art from early in BotW's development. That would explain the random redesigns given that last time they skipped and, well, I doubt Ganondorf had been drafted given the premise of the game.

 

[Quillion]

Here's something I have to wonder:

It's common conjecture that Captain Falcon's moveset was a placeholder from the Smash prototype Dragon King. Captain Falcon only received the moveset because his body type matched the placeholder model. But despite this, Captain Falcon had absolutely moves because he's a racing game character; there's nothing to extrapolate from his series to make a moveset.

However, for Ganondorf, you definitely can extrapolate some things from what he does in the games for the placeholder moveset. He did a magic-charged punch in OoT, so that translates well to the Warlock Punch. He used kicks in WW and TP, which translates to the Wizard's Foot. His neck hold in cutscenes from WW as well as his head-crushing in TP in another cutscene translates to the Flame Choke. The placeholder moveset actually fits Ganondorf better than it does Falcon.

So, if Ganondorf was originally chosen to receive the placeholder moveset, would people still be as mad? At that point, Captain Falcon would be the clone instead of the other way around.

Though, to be a bit contrarian, I don't know how people would react if Bowser had a hammer-wielding moveset with no fire breath, ground pound, shell attacks, claw attacks, or punches. But at least it's based on him using hammers in SMB1, right?

 

[Morbi]

Here's something I have to wonder:

It's common conjecture that Captain Falcon's moveset was a placeholder from the Smash prototype Dragon King. Captain Falcon only received the moveset because his body type matched the placeholder model. But despite this, Captain Falcon had absolutely moves because he's a racing game character; there's nothing to extrapolate from his series to make a moveset.

However, for Ganondorf, you definitely can extrapolate some things from what he does in the games for the placeholder moveset. He did a magic-charged punch in OoT, so that translates well to the Warlock Punch. He used kicks in WW and TP, which translates to the Wizard's Foot. His neck hold in cutscenes from WW as well as his head-crushing in TP in another cutscene translates to the Flame Choke. The placeholder moveset actually fits Ganondorf better than it does Falcon.

So, if Ganondorf was originally chosen to receive the placeholder moveset, would people still be as mad? At that point, Captain Falcon would be the clone instead of the other way around.

Though, to be a bit contrarian, I don't know how people would react if Bowser had a hammer-wielding moveset with no fire breath, ground pound, shell attacks, claw attacks, or punches. But at least it's based on him using hammers in SMB1, right?

The specials fit alright (they obviously could be better), it is the normals that are the problem, if you ask me. That being said, yes. I do believe if it were the other way around and he was the OG, there would be less complaints. Because being a clone is more or less a status of "I did not have time for you" which makes no sense regarding the King of Darkness.

I have no idea about your obsession with hammers, mate. You might literally be the only person in the world fixated on that concept.

 

[NintendoKnight]

The specials fit alright (they obviously could be better), it is the normals that are the problem, if you ask me. That being said, yes. I do believe if it were the other way around and he was the OG, there would be less complaints. Because being a clone is more or less a status of "I did not have time for you" which makes no sense regarding the King of Darkness.

I have no idea about your obsession with hammers, mate. You might literally be the only person in the world fixated on that concept.

Yeah, seriously.

SMB1 Bowser was also known for his use of magic, though as the Mario series has gone on, he's become less known for using it, but it's silently implied to help explain how Bowser gets away with certain things, or other plot related stuff. Not like dying, for instance. Or this:

and this:

(This crap is epic, btw)

Also, Bowser's Inside Story had the Magikoopa Mob special that allowed Bowser to blatantly use magic while in the player's control. This point is relevant again because REMAKES.

Countering Quillion's point about the Wizard's Foot, that special was given to him before Wind Waker and Twilight Princess were things. Ganondorf never kicked before then. He was given the kick because CLONES.

Also, Captain Falcon had one major thing that represented his games: his SPEED. Have you played Smash 64 Falcon? CRAP that dude was FAST. He went far and beyond Fox in running speed alone. With speed like that, it actually makes sense of his in-your-face, high-pressure, blitzkrieg moveset.

That moveset doesn't work for Ganondorf. It doesn't match his character, and it has no synergy with the SLOW traits they gave him.

 

[Quillion]

That moveset doesn't work for Ganondorf. It doesn't match his character, and it has no synergy with the SLOW traits they gave him.

But it does match his character. The moveset is overwhelmingly powerful, and it's a natural extension of him using his magic to supplement his godlike physical strength.

The only reason that Captain Falcon's moveset works is because of his speed. Otherwise, the whole thing is entirely fabricated for a character with no moves.

On the other hand, the moveset actually WORKS for Ganondorf because it can be extrapolated from things he did in his home series. He uses BOTH his magic and his strength in his moveset. Maybe not in the way some people want it, but he does so.

The moveset fits Ganondorf more than it does Falcon in terms of what the two can do in their home series.

 

[DNeon]

Quillion , please stop saying that Ganon's moveset is extrapolated from his games. It's blatantly false and is only the result of you cherry picking a very few moves that are kinda similar. A couple of boss fights involving a kick does not equal a dive kick special, let alone equating a couple of kicks with an entire moveset of very different kicks. His 'magic infused punches' do not look like or ever work like Warlock Punch.

You're being blatantly dishonest. The moveset was extrapolated from Captain Falcon's moveset and Captain Falcon's moveset alone. You are outright lying every time that you say 'it is extrapolated' from his games, nothing more, nothing less. Please stop lying to everyone's face here. He did not recieve a variety of kicks based on the few boss battles in which he uses one. He recieved a variety of kicks based on the fact that Captain Falcon uses a variety of kicks, and he copied Captain Falcon. That is the truth and you need to stop saying the opposite.

EDIT: That was needlessly aggressive sorry. I'm just tired of this thread being everyone else arguing with you.

 

[Deleted member]

Although I'd love a Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf, my hope is that they revamp the character using a BOTW-inspired design similar to how Sheik was updated for a TP appearance. It may actually look rather similar to Hyrule Warriors Ganondorf, particularly a long mane of hair which the Ganon-blights had.

Other characters have been updated in the past. Pit had 3 of his four specials altered (as well as any character's gliding special changed), characters like Link and Donkey Kong got new dash attacks, Mario had his down special remapped, Bowser was modified a bit, etc. Based on this precedence, I unfortunately doubt that they would just completely 100% change his move-set. So if Sakurai does what he's done in the past, we may get some changes like an altered Smash attack and a few of his specials changed. And honestly, if they make those changes good, that would be enough. For now.

Basically this is what I want:

 

[Quillion]

Quillion , please stop saying that Ganon's moveset is extrapolated from his games. It's blatantly false and is only the result of you cherry picking a very few moves that are kinda similar. A couple of boss fights involving a kick does not equal a dive kick special, let alone equating a couple of kicks with an entire moveset of very different kicks. His 'magic infused punches' do not look like or ever work like Warlock Punch.

You're being blatantly dishonest. The moveset was extrapolated from Captain Falcon's moveset and Captain Falcon's moveset alone. You are outright lying every time that you say 'it is extrapolated' from his games, nothing more, nothing less. Please stop lying to everyone's face here. He did not recieve a variety of kicks based on the few boss battles in which he uses one. He recieved a variety of kicks based on the fact that Captain Falcon uses a variety of kicks, and he copied Captain Falcon. That is the truth and you need to stop saying the opposite.

EDIT: That was needlessly aggressive sorry. I'm just tired of this thread being everyone else arguing with you.

Thing is, it's likely that Falcon's moveset was just a placeholder from Dragon King that he only got because their body types matched. Ganondorf could have got the moveset instead of Falcon if Sakurai wanted a second Zelda character in Smash 64.

I'm just saying: if it were Ganondorf that received the placeholder moveset and not Falcon, there would be much less people complaining.

 

[DNeon]

Thing is, it's likely that Falcon's moveset was just a placeholder from Dragon King that he only got because their body types matched. Ganondorf could have got the moveset instead of Falcon if Sakurai wanted a second Zelda character in Smash 64.

I'm just saying: if it were Ganondorf that received the placeholder moveset and not Falcon, there would be much less people complaining.

No, nobody in here is complaining that his moveset is low tier. That's...that's not at all what people are complaining about.

 

[Quillion]

No, nobody in here is complaining that his moveset is low tier. That's...that's not at all what people are complaining about.

???

I'm saying that if Ganondorf was originally in Smash 64 and had his moveset originally (ie: Falcon was the clone instead of Ganondorf), there would be virtually no complaints.

 

[Morbi]

???

I'm saying that if Ganondorf was originally in Smash 64 and had his moveset originally (ie: Falcon was the clone instead of Ganondorf), there would be virtually no complaints.

I am not entirely sure about that. There would be LESS complaints, surely; however "virtually no complaints" is a massive stretch given that the clone aspect is only one point of contention. There is still the whole, "he functions nothing close to how he does in his own series" that needs addressing. So, maybe instead of 9 out of 10 people complaining, it goes down to 5 out of 10 or something. The point would still remain that his move-set needs adjusting on some front.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'm saying that if Ganondorf was originally in Smash 64 and had his moveset originally (ie: Falcon was the clone instead of Ganondorf), there would be virtually no complaints.

Yes, there would. I'd complain. So would many others who feel the same way as we do now.

"But, I wanted to throw his energy balls at people... Why does he fight so different from his final boss battle?"

If he wasn't Ganondorf in 64, Melee, Brawl, Sm4sh, then he'd still need changes.

Also, C. Falcon having the Dragon King moveset is merely speculation, not confirmed fact. Or as you stated earlier, it's common conjecture. There's only two screenshots of the Dragon King fighting game, and none of the fighters are in poses that Captain Falcon is known to perform in 64. You can really only point to his jab and f-tilt. Nothing else is remarkably close.

What's more is that Captain Falcon's moveset was heavily adjusted in Melee. Any semblance he may have had to the Dragon King fighters was destroyed the second game in.

Also, to suggest that they would've used such a moveset for Ganondorf had he been introduced in 64 over an original moveset for himself based off his boss fight in Ocarina is making an gross number of assumptions based on speculation alone.

This hypothetical nonsense is a waste of time and energy, GANONDORF IS THE CLONE with an unfitting moveset performing very few actions he's known for. No matter what you argue, this is the case, and nothing you say will change that. Nothing you say will also change the belief that Ganondorf needs an adjustment. No "What ifs" will change that.

I'm going to take a wild guess and say your mental image of Ganondorf, let's say your headcanon, probably looks something like this: Ganondorf is this super powerful bad guy that comes in and punches down buildings like Superman. Am I correct in this assumption? I know that this is the headcanon of Ganondorf for a lot of people, thus making his moveset in Smash sensible to a small degree.

However, it was Smash Bros that established this archetype and headcanon. It was the Smash series that made us believe he's this slow, punchy dude who fights like a Fairy Tail wizard, "I'mma punch things cause MAGIC!"

Wizards and warlocks DO NOT PUNCH. They use magic without their fists hitting their opponents face. Ganondorf, and especially Ganon, has never been famous for performing these hand-to-hand combat feats. Yes, he's done somethings here and there to show that he can, but nothing states that he would opt for hand-to-hand over weapons and magic.

In Ocarina of Time, it was shown that the Gerudo all wielded weapons. The more dangerous ones dual-wielded swords. When Wind Waker came out and showed Ganondorf dual-wield just like his people of a prior game, I felt he was displaying the highest level of his culture and heritage through combat. Regardless of magic and the might of the Triforce, Ganondorf was a Gerudo Warrior.

But we've been denied that since MELEE. No, it did not start with Brawl.

He's teased us with a sword for almost 17 years now.

Melee displayed Ganondorf with the sword, not once, not twice, but THREE TIMES:

Official art, his all-star trophy (pictured), and a victory animation.

What's worse, they based his model and sword off of this:

This is the source for Ganondorf in Melee... a sword fight, in a Gamecube tech demo.

Look, Quillion. We get it that you don't want him to change. We've been very patient with you on the matter, but the truth is this: Ganondorf never should have been the way he is in Smash Bros. And you, of ALL the people I've talked to either in person or online in the near-17 years of Ganondorf being in Smash, you alone are the only person who wants to keep him the way he is. I've not met anyone else that didn't at any point ask "Why can't he use his sword?"

This is taken from the Smash Bros DOJO!:

That last part at the end there: "What are you putting it away for? Use it! People tend to make fun of Ganondorf for this."

He needs to change. That's it. He deserves better than what he's gotten. More than anyone else. And far too many people want this change to happen.

So, please stop arguing against the tide. No, scratch that. Please stop trying to discredit our arguments against Ganon's current condition. We respect your opinion, but next to no one agrees with you. At the beginning of the thread I invited people to share what they think, even asking "Should he remain as Falcondorf?"

However, you've not only expressed your opinion on this matter, which is highly unpopular (not that there's anything wrong with that and I encourage you to share your opinion), but you've been relentlessly arguing in a way that makes it seem like our opinions are completely unrealistic and unreasonable, while using fallacious information to back up your claims. I'm not saying that's what your intentions are, but that's still what you're doing and many people here are tired of it.

I'm not discouraging you from discussion, but this is no longer a discussion. We don't need to justify why we want things to be different, and we shouldn't have to justify it to you, the one guy who disagrees. Please understand where I'm coming from as I say this.

This is supposed to be a fun, inviting discussion to allow people to voice their opinions. But this was pulled away from that concept a few pages back. I'd like to return to the format it was intended to be.

 

[FunAtParties]

Falcon having that moveset is different because he did nothing in his games except drive in his car. In manga he had a pistol but that's it. He was a blank slate, and fits perfectly fine with what he was given.

The moveset barely fits with Ganonforf at all and Ganondorf has plenty of stuff from the games to draw off of.

People would still complain.

 

[Deleted member]

Falcon having that moveset is different because he did nothing in his games except drive in his car. In manga he had a pistol but that's it. He was a blank slate, and fits perfectly fine with what he was given.

This may not be the place for this, but....has anyone else also wanted Captain Falcon to use that pistol of his? Now that guns are ok in Smash....maybe that could change too someday

 

[DNeon]

This may not be the place for this, but....has anyone else also wanted Captain Falcon to use that pistol of his? Now that guns are ok in Smash....maybe that could change too someday

Eh, at some point the manga becomes less canon than Smash . But really, in this case the reason for him not getting a pistol (or atr least not firing it) would be more related to game balance, he's a rush down character who's identity is based on needing to get in to be effective, but having the tools and incredible speed to do that.

 

[FunAtParties]

This may not be the place for this, but....has anyone else also wanted Captain Falcon to use that pistol of his? Now that guns are ok in Smash....maybe that could change too someday

Nah honestly Captain Falcon has one of the few movesets I'm 100% fine with. It fits him perfectly. I can't imagine changing anything

 

[Metocles]

Some interesting discussions going on in this thread. I do wonder if the Ganondorf moveset will all come to a head in Smash Switch. It really depends on what the game is going to do with the old Link old Zelda... and old Ganondorf. We've seen what seems to be a design change for Link.

Is this a new Link that replaces the old one or just an additional Link? If it is a replacement, I really don't know how you can keep old Ganondorf. He would have to be updated and overhauled in a big way. With BotW, we've seen the passing of the torch from Twilight Princess to the new benchmark of the series and future LoZ reps may change suit. Excluding Toon Link, of course. Toon Link, btw, would facilitate having roughly the same moveset as TP link so you can move on to have a new Link with new weight and physics.

At that rate, I would be baffled at not doing a carte blanche change to the entire LoZ roster.

 

[MrReyes96]

Some interesting discussions going on in this thread. I do wonder if the Ganondorf moveset will all come to a head in Smash Switch. It really depends on what the game is going to do with the old Link old Zelda... and old Ganondorf. We've seen what seems to be a design change for Link.

Is this a new Link that replaces the old one or just an additional Link? If it is a replacement, I really don't know how you can keep old Ganondorf. He would have to be updated and overhauled in a big way. With BotW, we've seen the passing of the torch from Twilight Princess to the new benchmark of the series and future LoZ reps may change suit. Excluding Toon Link, of course. Toon Link, btw, would facilitate having roughly the same moveset as TP link so you can move on to have a new Link with new weight and physics.

At that rate, I would be baffled at not doing a carte blanche change to the entire LoZ roster.

My idea has been to make Breath of the Wild Link almost completely new, with a move set based on breath of the wild, and add a character called "classic Link" who would be a mix of both of the previous Link incarnations in smash. Like this follwing image

I think the Zelda series needs a complete moveset overhaul, all of them being based on breath of the wild.
Ganondorf pulling a Sheik in Brawl and just having his appearance based on Breath of the Wild and having some moves from Calamity Ganon as well.

 

[Quillion]

I think the Zelda series needs a complete moveset overhaul, all of them being based on breath of the wild.

At that rate, I would be baffled at not doing a carte blanche change to the entire LoZ roster.

A complete moveset overhaul is simply unethical to the existing Smash fandom. The existing Zelda cast has movesets that are already good representations of their canon character, loved by many, or both.

Even Sakurai himself knows this. That's why he acknowledges the sword in one of Ganon's taunts but doesn't make it his entire moveset. It's a nod to the fandom that he knows people want the sword but it wouldn't be good developer practice to overhaul him.

 

[MrReyes96]

A complete moveset overhaul is simply unethical to the existing Smash fandom. The existing Zelda cast has movesets that are already good representations of their canon character, loved by many, or both.

Even Sakurai himself knows this. That's why he acknowledges the sword in one of Ganon's taunts but doesn't make it his entire moveset. It's a nod to the fandom that he knows people want the sword but it wouldn't be good developer practice to overhaul him.

Which is why I would have Classic Link keep the old Link moveset
New Zelda would be similar to the current Zelda just actually viable

And Ganondorf has deserved a new moveset
If anything maybe along with classic Link they could add classic Ganon with a trident and magic based moveset

 

[Deleted member]

You know what would solve this issue and make everyone happy and is what I've been saying for years??

C.U.S.T.O.M. M.O.V.E.S.

Like the missed potential of Smash Run or Smash Tour, custom moves were one of those things Sakurai dabbled in but didn't fully develop or allow to be fully realized. I was devastated when the DLC characters did not come with any, and it annoys me to no end that they were never allowed online (except randomly in Tourneys?) with strangers.

Here's what I would do:
1. Drop the stat changes - they were crazy and fun, but a nightmare to try to keep balanced. This way, customization comes down to movesets
2. Custom movesets for everyone - Palutena and the Mii Fighters were the poster children for this, but this needs to be extended to every fighter. I would say you could keep many 'altered' custom moves, like replacing Link's Gale Boomerang with a normal boomerang, but why not also give him a completely different animation to utilize the Fire Rod or something? Or--get this--a custom special to replace bombs with remote bombs from BotW, and an up-special based on Revali's Gale? Those could even be the new defaults, and then you can choose to craft your own 'classic Link' based on available custom moves mixed with alt costumes. And by the way, there doesn't need to be this arbitrary limit on the number of custom moves and costumes. Add in more with DLC or updates! The sky's the limit!
3. And of course, make these custom fighters available in all modes everywhere or it's pointless. And make them able to be saved to amiibo to take to your friend's house.

If this happened, wonders would abound. Link/BotW Link could be merged into one character slot but we don't have to technically lose either one. Dr. Mario/Mario can be merged, with options to use FLUDD or the Mario Tornado. Pit/Dark Pit can be merged. And as for Ganondorf, he may be able to get a brand new moveset that everyone wants (except for Quillion), AND Quillion can choose a load-out for Ganondorf that utilizes his old specials. Not sure if they would completely revamp Ganondorf's standard attacks but here's the thing: even Ganondorf's custom specials in Sm4sh actually made him feel a lot more like Ganondorf, with things like Warlock Blade and Flame Chain. Add in some things like the Dead Man's Volley attack, maybe some other specials utilizing a sword strike, etc. and I won't care that most of his standard attacks are still based on Captain Falcon.

Will Sakurai do this? Probably not which is a shame.

 

[Morbi]

A complete moveset overhaul is simply unethical to the existing Smash fandom. The existing Zelda cast has movesets that are already good representations of their canon character, loved by many, or both.

Even Sakurai himself knows this. That's why he acknowledges the sword in one of Ganon's taunts but doesn't make it his entire moveset. It's a nod to the fandom that he knows people want the sword but it wouldn't be good developer practice to overhaul him.

The problem is, they do not even need to overhaul him. They could honestly replace his forward smash with a sword jab using literally the same hit-box, damage, and knock-back properties. Just change the animation. They could keep him literally the exact same, functionally, but tweak the aesthetic aspects and most people would probably give it a pass, at the very least. Other than that, change one move or two, as he does from time to time with every character, and you have yourself on an acceptable path.

The inherent issue is that Sakurai is as persistent as you are with keeping it in the same boring and redundant style that disservices his character. Sucks to non-Smash Ganondorf fans, it basically turned me off from one of my favorite characters in gaming just because the ****** is lazy. I am glad that no matter how poor the decision, there is at least someone into it.

 

[Quillion]

You know what would solve this issue and make everyone happy and is what I've been saying for years??

C.U.S.T.O.M. M.O.V.E.S.

Like the missed potential of Smash Run or Smash Tour, custom moves were one of those things Sakurai dabbled in but didn't fully develop or allow to be fully realized. I was devastated when the DLC characters did not come with any, and it annoys me to no end that they were never allowed online (except randomly in Tourneys?) with strangers.

Here's what I would do:
1. Drop the stat changes - they were crazy and fun, but a nightmare to try to keep balanced. This way, customization comes down to movesets
2. Custom movesets for everyone - Palutena and the Mii Fighters were the poster children for this, but this needs to be extended to every fighter. I would say you could keep many 'altered' custom moves, like replacing Link's Gale Boomerang with a normal boomerang, but why not also give him a completely different animation to utilize the Fire Rod or something? Or--get this--a custom special to replace bombs with remote bombs from BotW, and an up-special based on Revali's Gale? Those could even be the new defaults, and then you can choose to craft your own 'classic Link' based on available custom moves mixed with alt costumes. And by the way, there doesn't need to be this arbitrary limit on the number of custom moves and costumes. Add in more with DLC or updates! The sky's the limit!
3. And of course, make these custom fighters available in all modes everywhere or it's pointless. And make them able to be saved to amiibo to take to your friend's house.

If this happened, wonders would abound. Link/BotW Link could be merged into one character slot but we don't have to technically lose either one. Dr. Mario/Mario can be merged, with options to use FLUDD or the Mario Tornado. Pit/Dark Pit can be merged. And as for Ganondorf, he may be able to get a brand new moveset that everyone wants (except for Quillion), AND Quillion can choose a load-out for Ganondorf that utilizes his old specials. Not sure if they would completely revamp Ganondorf's standard attacks but here's the thing: even Ganondorf's custom specials in Sm4sh actually made him feel a lot more like Ganondorf, with things like Warlock Blade and Flame Chain. Add in some things like the Dead Man's Volley attack, maybe some other specials utilizing a sword strike, etc. and I won't care that most of his standard attacks are still based on Captain Falcon.

Will Sakurai do this? Probably not which is a shame.

Personally, I support custom normalsets a la one of the Mortal Kombat games. For example, Ganondorf could have a normalset consisting of his current moveset, and another normalset consisting of using his sword.

Just make sure other characters get similar treatment (Mario uses his Hammer, Link uses other weapons from BotW, Kirby can use any number of his abilities), and I'll accept Ganondorf using a sword then.

 

[Deleted member]

Personally, I support custom normalsets a la one of the Mortal Kombat games. For example, Ganondorf could have a normalset consisting of his current moveset, and another normalset consisting of using his sword.

Just make sure other characters get similar treatment (Mario uses his Hammer, Link uses other weapons from BotW, Kirby can use any number of his abilities), and I'll accept Ganondorf using a sword then.

I would accept this in a pinch.
However, I still think it would be fun to choose your own moves.
By the way, some of the Mii Swordfighter's specials would work great as alternatives for Ganondorf, particularly Stone Scabbard and Power Thrust (which actually already is like Wizard's Foot).

 

[Wonks]

A friend suggested making F-Zero's Black Shadow an exact clone of Ganondorf, and give Ganondorf his own Zelda-inspired moveset. I think this makes sense and is the best of both worlds.

 

[SaltyKracka]

Who knows.

Who cares.

It’s been a generation of them ignoring the same crap anyways. I would be shocked if it turned out they cared enough to make him worth playing now.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Who knows.

Who cares.

It’s been a generation of them ignoring the same crap anyways. I would be shocked if it turned out they cared enough to make him worth playing now.

Plenty of people care, thank you very much.

That's sorta why we hope for the best.

 

[Quillion]

I personally think that the best hope for Ganondorf to be "faithful to his canon self" in Smash is not to demand that Sakurai change his portrayal, but to demand that Aonuma/Fujibayashi change their portrayal of Ganondorf to match Smash.

The Zelda team is much more flexible in how they constantly adapt their characters to new situations, and I think that it would be far more appropriate if they give us a Ganondorf that uses magic-infused punches and kicks rather than Sakurai giving us a Ganondorf with a sword and magic.

 

[Just a random scrub]

A friend suggested making F-Zero's Black Shadow an exact clone of Ganondorf, and give Ganondorf his own Zelda-inspired moveset. I think this makes sense and is the best of both worlds.

........Okay, I'm sorry, but no.

Moving his moveset to Black Shadow is a request that straight up annoys me. First of all, it's not fair to Black Shadow.Two, many changes made to Ganondorf in Brawl onward were made with his character in mind (I'll elaborate a bit later), and not really Black Shadow. Smash characters are generally included because of popularity and crap. Black Shadow isn't popular right now, and is only wanted to dump Ganondorf's moveset too. That's not a good reason to add anybody. And finally, Captain Falcon himself is based on F-Zero as a whole (his speedy nature is based off the speed and quick reflexes gameplay of F-Zero) and also the gameplay of his vehicle, the Blue Falcon; in the F-Zero games, the Blue Falcon is a balanced vehicle stat-wise; his Smash moveset reflects that by having his slower moves be stronger for a balanced blend of speed and power. So if Black Shadow were to become a Smash Bros character, the natural design choice is to base it off his vehicle's gameplay in F-Zero; his racecar, the Black Bull, has high speed (the fastest in the game) and durability, at the cost of low boosting power. This would translate in Smash to a speedy defensive character with no emphasis on actual power. That doesn't really sound like Ganondorf, does it?

Honestly, I think Ganondorf is fine as it is. I mean, yeah, making him a clone of Falcon does seem weird (and I'll admit, I used to complain a lot about it too), but currently, his moveset reflects him on a conceptual level; a powerful, calculating sorcerer who has tremendous physical strength and darkness magic. In fact, from Brawl onward, Sakurai has included plenty of nods to Ganondorf's canon portrayal in Zelda, that have flown over tons of people's heads. I found an article that explains Ganondorf in Smash a hundred times better than I ever could, but here's a quick TLDR: Sakurai doesn't want to stray from Ganondorfs origins as a heavier Captain Falcon, but he's trying to make him as faithful as possible to the Zelda games within those limitations, and it's made me appreciate his moveset a lot more.

(I do understand why people would want to see an overhaul with swords, Dead Man's Volley, etc, but I will say one thing; that's what Sakurai should have used custom moves for. He only developed the full potential of customs for Palutena and the Miis, and everyone else got slightly altered, horribly unbalanced variations on their default specials. I'm hoping the full potential of customs is explored in Smash Switch, but seeing how the DLC for SSB4 lacks custom moves altogether, the team probably gave up on the concept. But Ganondorf still uses his sword in a custom special, so hey, that's pretty cool)

 

[Morbi]

I personally think that the best hope for Ganondorf to be "faithful to his canon self" in Smash is not to demand that Sakurai change his portrayal, but to demand that Aonuma/Fujibayashi change their portrayal of Ganondorf to match Smash.

The Zelda team is much more flexible in how they constantly adapt their characters to new situations, and I think that it would be far more appropriate if they give us a Ganondorf that uses magic-infused punches and kicks rather than Sakurai giving us a Ganondorf with a sword and magic.

Are you actually serious? Change Legend of Zelda for the sake of Smash? That level of entitlement would be utterly absurd. It is definitely a creative solution and one that I would genuinely not be opposed to; however, just to ask it would be ridiculous. They do not even add Ganondorf in their games anymore. It has been, what, a decade, at least? It would set a dangerous precedent for other series, if you ask me.

At this point, the best solution is probably just to cut Ganondorf and add Ganon as that seems to be all they are interested in using nowadays and even a Ganon just punching and kicking would not be nearly as insulting in my opinion. Maybe others would feel differently. You never know, there are just so many opinions regarding Ganondorf's move-set that I am actually starting to understand why Sakurai believes it is easier to just pretend the problem does not exist, ha ha ha.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I personally think that the best hope for Ganondorf to be "faithful to his canon self" in Smash is not to demand that Sakurai change his portrayal, but to demand that Aonuma/Fujibayashi change their portrayal of Ganondorf to match Smash.

The Zelda team is much more flexible in how they constantly adapt their characters to new situations, and I think that it would be far more appropriate if they give us a Ganondorf that uses magic-infused punches and kicks rather than Sakurai giving us a Ganondorf with a sword and magic.

...Excuse me, what?

This... is by and large the most asinine proposition I've ever heard in regards to the handling of a character.

Smash may be my favorite game series, but you're overvaluing it as a whole in comparison to the many series' it's supposed to represent and celebrate.

Why do you think it's so difficult to change Smash Ganondorf? It really isn't that complicated. He isn't the epitome of the character like you seem to believe he is.

Excuse my dogma, but if people have to be alienated from him in order to change his moveset to match his canon-self, then so be it. Let them be alienated. I play Ganondorf because he's GANONDORF, not because of his moveset. I play him because I'm a fan of his character and of the series he comes from, not because I'm a fan of how he plays in Smash.

The people who play him for his character will be happier to do so, and the people who only play him for his moveset will just have to either adapt or move on.

 

[Morbi]

...Excuse me, what?

This... is by and large the most asinine proposition I've ever heard in regards to the handling of a character.

Smash may be my favorite game series, but you're overvaluing it as a whole in comparison to the many series' it's supposed to represent and celebrate.

Why do you think it's so difficult to change Smash Ganondorf? It really isn't that complicated. He isn't the epitome of the character like you seem to believe he is.

Excuse my dogma, but if people have to be alienated from him in order to change his moveset to match his canon-self, then so be it. Let them be alienated. I play Ganondorf because he's GANONDORF, not because of his moveset. I play him because I'm a fan of his character and of the series he comes from, not because I'm a fan of how he plays in Smash.

The people who play him for his character will be happier to do so, and the people who only play him for his moveset will just have to either adapt or move on.

I honestly agree, I would feel somewhat bad about people who have come to enjoy Falcondorf, but it is about time they actually represent him properly. If you want that style, there are three games waiting for you and you had your fun for over fifteen years. People like me... Well, I guess Hyrule Warriors is my only option, technically? Obviously as a Smasher, I would enjoy playing as one of my former favorite characters at least once. It might reignite that spark and bring me back to the time when I loved Ganondorf.

 

[DNeon]

Quillion you've got to just be trolling the thread at this point. Are you suggesting that Smash is now a bigger deal than LoZ, and a ****ing Smash clone at that? Are you suggesting that Smash is no longer about representing the characters but that the second biggest villain (or third if you consider Ganon separate) should be bending to Sakurai? Should be bending to the oh so distraught slow/heavy C.Falcon fans? Should be bending to you.

You throw around words like 'unethical' whenever people suggest something that you don't want and then suggest that your opinions, outweighed by most of the people here (and assuming sales represent opinions, vastly outweighed in the general public) are more important than the second biggest gaming franchise on the planet.