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A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

What's your opinion on Ganondorf's moveset?

  • Love it, it's inseparable from Dorf to me

    Votes: 25 13.5%
  • Like it, but wouldn't mind a revamp

    Votes: 56 30.3%
  • Neutral, don't care either way

    Votes: 13 7.0%
  • Don't like it, but I can live with it

    Votes: 5 2.7%
  • Hate it, and a revamp is long overdue

    Votes: 45 24.3%
  • I like it, but I would still prefer a revamp.

    Votes: 41 22.2%

  • Total voters
    185
  • Poll closed .

Morbi

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I am interested to see what they do to the Dorf's style, though. He hasn't been in a main series game since Twilight Princess, and the TP style won't mesh well if Link and Zelda have BotW style.

His Hyrule Warriors look is his best ever, but would they go with a spin-off? Or would they make something up that somewhat matches?

I will note though that all of the Ganon forms in BotW did have a long mane like the one in HW, so if they did give us that one, it would fit with the rest of it.
It was also used for Demise in Skyward Sword. Hopefully that is enough precedent to give our boy some luxurious locks. At least a visual update would be SOMETHING.
 

Quillion

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DNeon DNeon and NintendoKnight NintendoKnight : Okay, I'll stop with my whataboutism. DNeon made a good argument as to why it's not a valid thing to put forward, and I might as well go with the usual arguments people use instead (Ganondorf is more fun with punching, etc.).

Back to Hyrule Warriors: I have to wonder, since Ganondorf does use his shadow-constructed arm for punches in that game, what if Ganondorf had that kind of revamp? He could have all his arm attacks revamped to use his shadow arm, whether it be his Warlock Punch, F-air, B-air, jab, or F-smash.

The way I see it, this kills more birds than just shunting the current moveset to Black Shadow: He uses more magic, he represents HW, but he's still punching and doesn't shunt his moveset to another character.

Given the pros, this would be much better than straight-up revamping him, no?
 

Morbi

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DNeon DNeon and NintendoKnight NintendoKnight : Okay, I'll stop with my whataboutism. DNeon made a good argument as to why it's not a valid thing to put forward, and I might as well go with the usual arguments people use instead (Ganondorf is more fun with punching, etc.).

Back to Hyrule Warriors: I have to wonder, since Ganondorf does use his shadow-constructed arm for punches in that game, what if Ganondorf had that kind of revamp? He could have all his arm attacks revamped to use his shadow arm, whether it be his Warlock Punch, F-air, B-air, jab, or F-smash.

The way I see it, this kills more birds than just shunting the current moveset to Black Shadow: He uses more magic, he represents HW, but he's still punching and doesn't shunt his moveset to another character.

Given the pros, this would be much better than straight-up revamping him, no?
How do you know he is "more fun" with punching if you have never tried the alternative? I am not sure he would be more fun with magic or anything like that, I even stated that if it was a Palutena situation, I should count my blessings that we have Falcondorf.

I would be down with that. Because the shadow constructs are more or less magic. That being said, I do not believe the element of "punching" is what makes Ganon, Ganon. He could function literally the same if he pulled out a sword for smash attacks, for instance. It could be the same hitbox, same damage, same knock-back value. Nothing would change but the animation.

The revamp is obviously better; however, as I stated before, I would take what I could get.
 

CaptainAmerica

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Anything they give us from HW is fine by me. Like I said, I don’t mind the punchy moves as much as I’d like some HWesque specials.
 

Morbi

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What exactly is a "Palutena situation"? For all I know, Palutena merely suffers from the same problems that Zelda currently does in regards to being a fighter.
Indeed. That is precisely what I mean. Sakurai has this thing against magic users, Robin is included as well. But through some actual buffs, they are a bit better than they were at launch relative to the others. Not really though. I would consider it a coincidence if Zelda were not like this for nearly two decades.

All I am saying is while I might THINK Ganon is bad now, he could be literally unplayable at higher levels.
 

Ridley_Prime

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Oh yeah, hadn't thought about that. With how magic users in Smash have been kinda lackluster on their own in terms of viability, more magic might be something one should be conservative on in concern to Ganondorf.
 

King9999

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It should be clear by my profile pic that I also want HW Ganon.

I think what would be even cooler though is if they make a BOTW-inspired Ganondorf, to stay consistent with BOTW Link (and maybe BOTW Zelda).

I want Ganon's moveset to change like everyone else here, but if it doesn't change, then I'll accept it.
 

Quillion

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Indeed. That is precisely what I mean. Sakurai has this thing against magic users, Robin is included as well. But through some actual buffs, they are a bit better than they were at launch relative to the others. Not really though. I would consider it a coincidence if Zelda were not like this for nearly two decades.

All I am saying is while I might THINK Ganon is bad now, he could be literally unplayable at higher levels.
Oh yeah, hadn't thought about that. With how magic users in Smash have been kinda lackluster on their own in terms of viability, more magic might be something one should be conservative on in concern to Ganondorf.
Well, to be fair, we have light brawlers, heavy brawlers, and mid-weight brawlers. We also have light sword users, heavy sword users, and mid-weight sword users.

The problem is that the magic users (including psychic-users like Mewtwo and Ness) are mid-lightweight at best. I agree that this is a major problem when it comes to the magic-using cast. What we need is more variety in how the mages play, whether that be aggressive or as a tank.

And... I suppose if Ganondorf can leave his unique niche as the pure heavy brawler for the sole pure heavy mage, he'll still be as unique-playing as ever.
 

Welshy91

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I think Ganondorf should be remade in the most powerful version of himself.

Ganonhorse
 

Quillion

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Jokes aside, I do think it would be much cooler for both Link and Ganon if they rode their horses into battle as their battle intro instead of appearing out of portals.

Link's intro hasn't been seen since Zelda 1, and Ganon's isn't really based on anything.
 

CaptainAmerica

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The Dorf is based on the dark magic where Phantom Ganon emerges from portraits in the Forest Temple of OoT. But he is also mounted there. He should 100% be on a horse, since he’s always seen on a horse.

Link should have gotten any of his various teleports though. In TP, he teleported with those black twilight pixels, and in the new game he teleports with blue magitek. He should definitely get one of those.
 

Quillion

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The Dorf is based on the dark magic where Phantom Ganon emerges from portraits in the Forest Temple of OoT. But he is also mounted there. He should 100% be on a horse, since he’s always seen on a horse.
I don't remember any horse in WW, do you?
 

Hokori

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This topic has been wearing me down over the years since I keep hoping for change but it never happens. I'll basically take anything at this point. Keep his moveset, update his appearance? Fine. Unique specials, but everything else is the same? Fine. Total revamp? All for it.
I remember seeing the updates to old vets like Bowser, Yoshi, etc before the release of Smash 4 and got excited for the possibilities of what they were finally going to do with the Dorf, but nah. His Sword Taunt will continue to taunt me more than my opponents because I care : (

Hell, I'd be perfectly fine if they decided to keep the current Dorf and add Pig Ganon.

 

Quillion

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This topic has been wearing me down over the years since I keep hoping for change but it never happens. I'll basically take anything at this point. Keep his moveset, update his appearance? Fine. Unique specials, but everything else is the same? Fine. Total revamp? All for it.
I remember seeing the updates to old vets like Bowser, Yoshi, etc before the release of Smash 4 and got excited for the possibilities of what they were finally going to do with the Dorf, but nah. His Sword Taunt will continue to taunt me more than my opponents because I care : (

Hell, I'd be perfectly fine if they decided to keep the current Dorf and add Pig Ganon.
Ganondorf already got his massive revamp back in Brawl, and that was to rework his clonehood into something closer to his canon portrayal. There really is no need for a twice-over revamp.
 

Lyndis_

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This topic has been wearing me down over the years since I keep hoping for change but it never happens. I'll basically take anything at this point. Keep his moveset, update his appearance? Fine. Unique specials, but everything else is the same? Fine. Total revamp? All for it.
I remember seeing the updates to old vets like Bowser, Yoshi, etc before the release of Smash 4 and got excited for the possibilities of what they were finally going to do with the Dorf, but nah. His Sword Taunt will continue to taunt me more than my opponents because I care : (

Hell, I'd be perfectly fine if they decided to keep the current Dorf and add Pig Ganon.

Same here. It's so disappointing, I'd almost be glad to get Ganon instead at this point.

Even just new specials would be a huge step in the right direction.
 
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CaptainAmerica

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Honestly, I had fun with his changes in Brawl. Yeah, after Hyrule Warriors, it was a bit anticlimactic to see what could have been and I was disappointed. I used to be hard on the “change him and give his moveset to Black Shadow train, but I’ve cooled off a bit. He is the character I would be most okay with more extensive changes, but I don’t like complete overhauls.

I wouldn’t do a ground up, but a few changes, yeah. Side special should absolutely stay. I’d love an explodable dark energy ball added to neutral special (like that one HW move) and I loved the arm summons in HW for down specials. Definitely change the running animation to something more menacing (float?) and new appearance with a mane and a non-derpface, though. Oh, and make his utilt cancellable since I hate when I accidentally whiff an usmash and then am a sitting duck for a bit. Or get rid of that dumb move entirely.

I could live with or without a sword or trident. I used to love the idea of a dual-wielder, but that part of HW was pretty original in the first place, and I like his magic combos better. There is a certain amount of menacing he got from Melee to Brawl so I’m not too bummed anymore. A sword or trident could increase range on some attacks, but leave some others alone.
 

DNeon

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Ganondorf already got his massive revamp back in Brawl, and that was to rework his clonehood into something closer to his canon portrayal. There really is no need for a twice-over revamp.
That...was nothing close to a 'massive revamp'. And the only move they made closer to his canon portrayal was side B.

Like that wasn't even Luigi level changes, it's like saying Roy was a 'massive revamp'
 
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Hokori

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Ganondorf already got his massive revamp back in Brawl, and that was to rework his clonehood into something closer to his canon portrayal. There really is no need for a twice-over revamp.
If the inclusion of his F-Tilt, Side-B, and Final Smash is considered a "massive revamp" for canon portrayal, I guess we're already dead.

Don't get me wrong, I had plenty of fun with Brawl Dorf, but I would personally like to see more.

Honestly, I had fun with his changes in Brawl. Yeah, after Hyrule Warriors, it was a bit anticlimactic to see what could have been and I was disappointed. I used to be hard on the “change him and give his moveset to Black Shadow train, but I’ve cooled off a bit. He is the character I would be most okay with more extensive changes, but I don’t like complete overhauls.

I wouldn’t do a ground up, but a few changes, yeah. Side special should absolutely stay. I’d love an explodable dark energy ball added to neutral special (like that one HW move) and I loved the arm summons in HW for down specials. Definitely change the running animation to something more menacing (float?) and new appearance with a mane and a non-derpface, though. Oh, and make his utilt cancellable since I hate when I accidentally whiff an usmash and then am a sitting duck for a bit. Or get rid of that dumb move entirely.

I could live with or without a sword or trident. I used to love the idea of a dual-wielder, but that part of HW was pretty original in the first place, and I like his magic combos better. There is a certain amount of menacing he got from Melee to Brawl so I’m not too bummed anymore. A sword or trident could increase range on some attacks, but leave some others alone.
Probably shouldn't have said *total* revamp in my first post. I enjoy how he functions as a heavy brawler. Ideally, I'd try to keep that feeling intact while including some new moves involving the sword, trident, and/or dark magic. Heavy brawler or heavy mage, as long as he can escape the clone stigma and still be brutal and menacing, I'm sold.
 

Garo

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I came up with an idea for how Ganondorf could appear and work in the next Smash.

First of all, his design would be changed to what he might've looked like if he appeared in BotW, similar to Sheik's situation in Brawl. This is to fit together with Link (and Zelda, who I assume is getting a similar treatment).
Second, he still uses his Smash 4 incarnation as a basis but is heavily decloned. For example, his stats (weight, running speed, air speed etc.) are basically the same and he might use a trident for some attacks, but the general idea of the attack could be the same it was in Smash 4. Here's a list of the changed moves:

Jab: Stabs forwards with the trident. Similar to his current jab but with better range.
D-tilt: Does a shoveling motion with the trident, scooping opponents into the air. Combos into aerials at lower percentages.
U-tilt: Spins the trident over his head before stabbing it to the ground in front of him, creating an explosion. Basically my idea of retaining the current u-tilt while giving it more utility, with the spinning part protecting you from attacks from above and the stabbing part working like his u-tilt does now. The multi hitting spin doesn't combo into the stab but instead launches the opponents diagonally upwards on the last hit with average knockback.
U-smash: Very similar to his current u-smash, but instead of kicking his leg up he does an upwards stab with the trident.
D-smash: Stabs the trident into the ground which causes two slanted rock formations to erupt from the ground on both sides, launching opponents at an angle of 45 degrees or so.
F-smash: Throws the trident in front of him. It spins in the air, dealing multiple hits and launching on the final hit. The range could depend on the charge, similar to Duck Hunt Duo's f-smash.
N-air: Spins the trident in front of him, similar to Pit and Dark Pit's n-air.
B-air: Stabs backwards with the trident, holding it in a reverse grip. Very good range and strongest at the tip.
Grab: Ganondorf reaches out with his free hand with range similar to Ike's grab and grabs the opponent by the scruff of their neck (if they have a neck) and holds them in the air.
Pummel: Ganondorf stabs the opponent with the trident.
F-throw: Animation resembles d-throw but done forwards instead of towards the ground.
U-throw: Throws the enemy above him and stabs them with the trident. A kill throw with strength somewhere between those of Marth's and Mewtwo's.
B-throw: Like f-throw but done in the other direction and more powerful.

Neutral Special: Like with u-tilt, my purpose with this is to retain his current move while giving it more utility. Holding down the special button will make him do the Warlock Punch, but if you just press it quickly instead, Ganondorf will throw out an energy ball that will slowly travel horizontally (diagonally down if done in the air). This ball can be reflected even with normal moves, making it a little faster with each reflect. When the ball is out, an uncharged neutral special will make Ganondorf do a quick backhanded motion with little cooldown, which is specially meant for reflecting the ball. Hitting the ball with Warlock Punch will split it into multiple smaller balls that can't be reflected and home in on the opponent who reflected it. Whoever is hit by either version of the move will be paralysed, the duration depending on the amount of times the ball has been reflected. The ball will always be reflected completely horizontally, even if Ganondorf begins with the aerial version.

Up Special: Ganondorf rises up, spinning the trident above him and dealing multiple hits. The final hit deals similar knockback to Dark Dive's final hit.

Down Special: Like with Wizard's Foot, Ganondorf dashes forwards or diagonally downwards depending on if the move is used in the air or on the ground. However, instead of kicking he stabs with the trident. If the move isn't shielded, the opponent gets skewered on the trident. This allows the aerial version to be used as an additional form of Ganoncide offstage. After a grounded skewer or landing after an aerial skewer Ganondorf has a few options. Hitting either special or attack has him slam the skewered opponent on the ground, launching them in the air. Pressing forward makes Ganondorf kick the opponent off the trident, launching them at a low angle similar to his f-tilt. Pressing back has him turn around while swinging the trident and launching the opponent off it in a higher angle.

So, any feedback or ideas on how to improve this? Did I change something I shouldn't have or miss certain scenarios that could affect the function of some moves?
 

Welshy91

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I think Ganonhorse should be in the game as a DHD clone, with the horse replacing the dog and Link replacing the duck.
 

DNeon

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Garo Garo im actually a massive fan of how you've included dead man's volley into it, rather than having it be a charged projectile in order to get the multiple orbs, it's a punishable commitment that also needs some set up.

On the other hand I think you're overloading the options a bit with the seemingly multipurpose down b and increased ranges/disjoint on a lot of moves
 

Quillion

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I came up with an idea for how Ganondorf could appear and work in the next Smash.

First of all, his design would be changed to what he might've looked like if he appeared in BotW, similar to Sheik's situation in Brawl. This is to fit together with Link (and Zelda, who I assume is getting a similar treatment).
Second, he still uses his Smash 4 incarnation as a basis but is heavily decloned. For example, his stats (weight, running speed, air speed etc.) are basically the same and he might use a trident for some attacks, but the general idea of the attack could be the same it was in Smash 4. Here's a list of the changed moves:

Jab: Stabs forwards with the trident. Similar to his current jab but with better range.
D-tilt: Does a shoveling motion with the trident, scooping opponents into the air. Combos into aerials at lower percentages.
U-tilt: Spins the trident over his head before stabbing it to the ground in front of him, creating an explosion. Basically my idea of retaining the current u-tilt while giving it more utility, with the spinning part protecting you from attacks from above and the stabbing part working like his u-tilt does now. The multi hitting spin doesn't combo into the stab but instead launches the opponents diagonally upwards on the last hit with average knockback.
U-smash: Very similar to his current u-smash, but instead of kicking his leg up he does an upwards stab with the trident.
D-smash: Stabs the trident into the ground which causes two slanted rock formations to erupt from the ground on both sides, launching opponents at an angle of 45 degrees or so.
F-smash: Throws the trident in front of him. It spins in the air, dealing multiple hits and launching on the final hit. The range could depend on the charge, similar to Duck Hunt Duo's f-smash.
N-air: Spins the trident in front of him, similar to Pit and Dark Pit's n-air.
B-air: Stabs backwards with the trident, holding it in a reverse grip. Very good range and strongest at the tip.
Grab: Ganondorf reaches out with his free hand with range similar to Ike's grab and grabs the opponent by the scruff of their neck (if they have a neck) and holds them in the air.
Pummel: Ganondorf stabs the opponent with the trident.
F-throw: Animation resembles d-throw but done forwards instead of towards the ground.
U-throw: Throws the enemy above him and stabs them with the trident. A kill throw with strength somewhere between those of Marth's and Mewtwo's.
B-throw: Like f-throw but done in the other direction and more powerful.

Neutral Special: Like with u-tilt, my purpose with this is to retain his current move while giving it more utility. Holding down the special button will make him do the Warlock Punch, but if you just press it quickly instead, Ganondorf will throw out an energy ball that will slowly travel horizontally (diagonally down if done in the air). This ball can be reflected even with normal moves, making it a little faster with each reflect. When the ball is out, an uncharged neutral special will make Ganondorf do a quick backhanded motion with little cooldown, which is specially meant for reflecting the ball. Hitting the ball with Warlock Punch will split it into multiple smaller balls that can't be reflected and home in on the opponent who reflected it. Whoever is hit by either version of the move will be paralysed, the duration depending on the amount of times the ball has been reflected. The ball will always be reflected completely horizontally, even if Ganondorf begins with the aerial version.

Up Special: Ganondorf rises up, spinning the trident above him and dealing multiple hits. The final hit deals similar knockback to Dark Dive's final hit.

Down Special: Like with Wizard's Foot, Ganondorf dashes forwards or diagonally downwards depending on if the move is used in the air or on the ground. However, instead of kicking he stabs with the trident. If the move isn't shielded, the opponent gets skewered on the trident. This allows the aerial version to be used as an additional form of Ganoncide offstage. After a grounded skewer or landing after an aerial skewer Ganondorf has a few options. Hitting either special or attack has him slam the skewered opponent on the ground, launching them in the air. Pressing forward makes Ganondorf kick the opponent off the trident, launching them at a low angle similar to his f-tilt. Pressing back has him turn around while swinging the trident and launching the opponent off it in a higher angle.

So, any feedback or ideas on how to improve this? Did I change something I shouldn't have or miss certain scenarios that could affect the function of some moves?
That's actually quite similar to the moveset I came up with; keeping his moveset generally the same, but updating the animations to give him more range (albeit still similar to what they are currently) and make him more faithful.

Only thing I did differently is to give him ALL of his canon weapons: longsword, twin short swords, and trident alongside magic, all for different moves each.
 
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Hokori

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I think Ganonhorse should be in the game as a DHD clone, with the horse replacing the dog and Link replacing the duck.
The Dorf would then be a clone of two different characters from two different series. Keep making history Ganon.

That's actually quite similar to the moveset I came up with; keeping his moveset generally the same, but updating the animations to give him more range (albeit still similar to what they are currently) and make him more faithful.

Only thing I did differently is to give him ALL of his canon weapons: longsword, twin short swords, and trident alongside magic, all for different moves each.
Your Flame Choke + Dead Man's Volley idea makes me excited. A dab of canon, utility, and badassery all-in-one.

+1

Looking at some nice stuff here.
 
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Grizzexploder

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i'm ok with any change rly
i'd be fine if they just replaced Ganon's specials with Warlock Blade, Dark Fists, and Wizard's Dropkick
 

Quillion

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Funnily enough, Ganonhorse in HW is just a palette swap of Epona.

Oh well, I guess we'll get our Giant Horse in HW2 when that comes out.
 

DNeon

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A good suggestion I got from Quillion Quillion was to open a poll about Ganondorf's moveset. I agreed and added one in.

What's your opinion on Ganondorf's moveset?
I feel like it's missing an option to like the moveset but want something different for Ganondorf. Like I think that a revamp is long overdue, but I dont hate Smash Ganondorf.

Edit: I guess the issue is that you're essentially rating 2 different criteria on the same 1-5 scale. "Do you like his moveset?" and "Do you want changes?"
 
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Quillion

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I feel like it's missing an option to like the moveset but want something different for Ganondorf. Like I think that a revamp is long overdue, but I dont hate Smash Ganondorf.
Wouldn't that be "Like it, but wouldn't mind a revamp"?
 

DNeon

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DNeon DNeon I added another option, "I like it, but would still prefer a revamp."

The option "Like it, but wouldn't mind a revamp" is very much passive towards the idea and doesn't represent everyone accurately.
Thanks, voted, but I still think you're polling two different things at the same time, like if you split each response in half you get
  • Love it
  • Like it
  • Neutral
  • Don't like it
  • Hate it
And
  • It's inseparable from Ganondorf to me
  • (Positive but) Wouldn't mind a revamp
  • Don't care either way
  • (Negative but) I can live with it
  • A revamp is long overdue
Which are answers to 2 different questions

Nevertheless it's not like this is an official survey, and with that extra option you've probably covered the range of opinions that you're going to get, I think I just got into a statistical frame of mind for a bit sorry
 

NintendoKnight

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Thanks, voted, but I still think you're polling two different things at the same time, like if you split each response in half you get
  • Love it
  • Like it
  • Neutral
  • Don't like it
  • Hate it
And
  • It's inseparable from Ganondorf to me
  • (Positive but) Wouldn't mind a revamp
  • Don't care either way
  • (Negative but) I can live with it
  • A revamp is long overdue
Which are answers to 2 different questions

Nevertheless it's not like this is an official survey, and with that extra option you've probably covered the range of opinions that you're going to get, I think I just got into a statistical frame of mind for a bit sorry
Heh, that's fair. Unfortunately, I can't change the whole poll. I can only add new options.
 
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MrReyes96

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I think pulling a Sheik in brawl with ganondorf would be interesting, seeing a breath of the wild inspired version of Ganondorf, maybe adding elements from his hyrule warriors design.
I’m a fan of this fan art in particular


As for a moveset, I personally think he needs an overhaul. Magic + Trident/Dual Swords.
Make him feel like the great force of evil he is and give his current moveset to an F-Zero rep like Black Shadow.
 

Quillion

Smash Hero
Joined
Sep 17, 2014
Messages
5,989
Real talk, was anyone else here actually disappointed that Calamity Ganon wasn't (completely) Ganondorf at any point in BotW? I really wanted a great one-on-one duel with him.

Like when you meet him in Hyrule Castle, he would burst out of his pod as a cyborg Ganondorf, then would turn into Beast Ganon after that. It would also give him some personality as well as the opportunity to reveal exactly how he became the Calamity.

Anyway, I found another BotW Ganondorf design. This one's actually polygonal, and this guy made both "Ganondorf face" and "Malice Zombie" designs for him.

 

Morbi

Scavenger
Joined
Jun 21, 2013
Messages
17,168
Location
Speculation God, GOML
Real talk, was anyone else here actually disappointed that Calamity Ganon wasn't (completely) Ganondorf at any point in BotW? I really wanted a great one-on-one duel with him.

Like when you meet him in Hyrule Castle, he would burst out of his pod as a cyborg Ganondorf, then would turn into Beast Ganon after that. It would also give him some personality as well as the opportunity to reveal exactly how he became the Calamity.

Anyway, I found another BotW Ganondorf design. This one's actually polygonal, and this guy made both "Ganondorf face" and "Malice Zombie" designs for him.

Not going to lie, I never even beat BotW. I did everything outside of the Korok seeds and actually fighting Ganon. The reason? Well, if it was not obvious, it was because I learned what the boss entailed and decided it was a waste of my time. Similar to the Korok seeds.
 

DNeon

Smash Lord
Joined
Feb 24, 2015
Messages
1,003
Location
Brisbane, Australia
NNID
D_Neon_Lamp
For all the 'historical artwork' they use to tell you about calamity Ganon it's crazy that you never actually see him represented like he is in that artwork.
 
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