A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[CaptainAmerica]

That 'Dorf moveset sounds great!

I'm not super opposed to Falcondorf, but I would like a bit of reference to games like Dead Man's Volley or a few sword smash moves.

What I really want is the Hyrule Warriors costume, though.

 

[Quillion]

I understand why people are constantly talking about HW Ganon's appearance; it's a great composite of everything Ganondorf has been over the years, including Demise.

But why is no one talking about giving him a BotW costume based on Calamity Ganon? I think it could work. It would look something like this:

 

[Ghirahilda]

I really don't care for his sword. But dead man's volley needs to be part of his moveset, or another projectile

 

[FunAtParties]

I understand why people are constantly talking about HW Ganon's appearance; it's a great composite of everything Ganondorf has been over the years, including Demise.

But why is no one talking about giving him a BotW costume based on Calamity Ganon? I think it could work. It would look something like this:

That's actually pretty sick

 

[Quillion]

I really don't care for his sword. But dead man's volley needs to be part of his moveset, or another projectile

DK doesn't need his barrel throw and Roy doesn't need his sword beam. Why does Ganon need a projectile?

 

[Ghirahilda]

DK doesn't need his barrel throw and Roy doesn't need his sword beam. Why does Ganon need a projectile?

Look how amasing this is

Also, why bring other characters for the discussion? That they don't need those attacks? Don't use YOUR opinion as arguments, also this is a Ganondorf thread, go tell DK thread that he don't need a barrel and tell on Roy thread that he don't need his flame beam attacks

 

[Quillion]

Don't use YOUR opinion as arguments

Also you:

Look how amasing this is

Also, why bring other characters for the discussion? That they don't need those attacks? Don't use YOUR opinion as arguments, also this is a Ganondorf thread, go tell DK thread that he don't need a barrel and tell on Roy thread that he don't need his flame beam attacks

Because literally NO ONE complains that other characters need their projectiles when they're just as iconic to them. Yet Ganondorf gets all the heat when it comes to not having a projectile.

I must therefore conclude that most, if not all people complaining about Ganon's lack of a projectile are hypocritical.

 

[FunAtParties]

Also you:





Because literally NO ONE complains that other characters need their projectiles when they're just as iconic to them. Yet Ganondorf gets all the heat when it comes to not having a projectile.

I must therefore conclude that most, if not all people complaining about Ganon's lack of a projectile are hypocritical.

DK is based off his DKC version, which he doesn't toss barrels constantly. The DK from the original Donkey Kong, is far removed from the DK of today.

Roy boys weren't exactly happy about his moveset not getting many changes last time around either. Roy has a smaller fanbase that actually knows what he did in his games so they won't complain about the beam. Hell, I only know Roy through Smash so I never cared.

Honestly, I don't know what you're getting at with dropping these examples. Ganondorf should have some canon specials.

 

[Quillion]

DK is based off his DKC version, which he doesn't toss barrels constantly. The DK from the original Donkey Kong, is far removed from the DK of today.

Well, Mario can't use his Cape and Fireballs at the same time in SMW.

Honestly, I don't know what you're getting at with dropping these examples. Ganondorf should have some canon specials.

Because:

Because literally NO ONE complains that other characters need their projectiles when they're just as iconic to them. Yet Ganondorf gets all the heat when it comes to not having a projectile.

I must therefore conclude that most, if not all people complaining about Ganon's lack of a projectile are hypocritical.

 

[Ghirahilda]

Also you:





Because literally NO ONE complains that other characters need their projectiles when they're just as iconic to them. Yet Ganondorf gets all the heat when it comes to not having a projectile.

I must therefore conclude that most, if not all people complaining about Ganon's lack of a projectile are hypocritical.

Let me try to explain my little friend
Ween Melee was released, we got Falco, a Fox Clone. It's fine since they are from the same series and are very related
We got Roy. a clone from Marth. Both are sword users and are from the same series. It's fine too
Pichu - Pikacu
Young Link - Link
Mario - Dr. Mario
Also on SSB we got Luigi - Mario

Now look how distant this looks like: Captain Falcon - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - -- -- - - - - Ganondorf
Ganondorf is a clone from a... racer pilot?
OK

But in Brawl he got some small changes, but still a clone

And so on Wii U/3DS
This make us Zelda/Ganondorf fans a feeling a little, well, something like this:

This is why some of us want him at least to have a projectile, like death man's volleyball. It represents him, who he is on his series. It's one of his most iconic attacks (if not the most iconic)
We don't want him to be a racer pilot clone

 

[FunAtParties]

Well, Mario can't use his Cape and Fireballs at the same time in SMW.



Because:

Your argument is all over the place at this point. This Mario example makes no sense in comparison to DK, just like the rest of your comparisons make no sense with Dorf. The Mario in SMW is still that same Mario, DK in the original Donkey Kong isn't even supposed to be the same guy as the one from DKC (Cranky Kong is supposed to be the original DK). Still I have seen people ask for DK to have barrels, Brawl minus mod has just that, so yeah you're wrong.

All this is besides the point though, you're criticizing Ganondorf fans for saying what they want in the character for no reason, and bringing up random characters to justify your point that people here are being hypocritical. Thing is, you have no clue what you're talking about, because I have LITERALLY seen people complain about every single one of the characters you mentioned, and their lack of whatever attack that's missing. And none if it matters, because this is exactly the place where people are supposed to criticize and share ideas for the characters they love. They don't have to be consistent with their wishes, because this isn't a courtroom.

 

[Lyndis_]

While personally I'd prefer to have Ganondorf take his Hyrule Warriors look into Smash 5, if they did decide to base his appearance off of BotW it's going to be very hit or miss for me.

I recently discovered this Calamity Ganondorf design by Dogbomber, which I think looks just spectacular.

Spoiler: Big ol' hi-res artwork

I definitely hope Nintendo finally decides to overhaul Ganondorf so that he isn't based off C. Falcon any longer.
I know a lot want him to at least get a few more moves or specials, but I really just want them to completely redo him. He doesn't even feel a little bit like Ganondorf to me as a clone.

 

[FunAtParties]

While personally I'd prefer to have Ganondorf take his Hyrule Warriors look into Smash 5, if they did decide to base his appearance off of BotW it's going to be very hit or miss for me.

I recently discovered this Calamity Ganondorf design by Dogbomber, which I think looks just spectacular.

Spoiler: Big ol' hi-res artwork

I definitely hope Nintendo finally decides to overhaul Ganondorf so that he isn't based off C. Falcon any longer.
I know a lot want him to at least get a few more moves or specials, but I really just want them to completely redo him. He doesn't even feel a little bit like Ganondorf to me as a clone.

Goddamn I'm loving these BotW Ganondorf designs.

 

[majorasmaskfan]

DK doesn't need his barrel throw and Roy doesn't need his sword beam. Why does Ganon need a projectile?

Because playing tennis is his most iconic move, in the final boss of ocarina of time. One of the most iconic final bosses in gaming history in a game that sold way better than any f zero game.

 

[Quillion]

Your argument is all over the place at this point. This Mario example makes no sense in comparison to DK, just like the rest of your comparisons make no sense with Dorf. The Mario in SMW is still that same Mario, DK in the original Donkey Kong isn't even supposed to be the same guy as the one from DKC (Cranky Kong is supposed to be the original DK). Still I have seen people ask for DK to have barrels, Brawl minus mod has just that, so yeah you're wrong.

All this is besides the point though, you're criticizing Ganondorf fans for saying what they want in the character for no reason, and bringing up random characters to justify your point that people here are being hypocritical. Thing is, you have no clue what you're talking about, because I have LITERALLY seen people complain about every single one of the characters you mentioned, and their lack of whatever attack that's missing. And none if it matters, because this is exactly the place where people are supposed to criticize and share ideas for the characters they love. They don't have to be consistent with their wishes, because this isn't a courtroom.

But don't you think it's unfair that Ganondorf gets more salt surrounding his portrayal when other characters are lacking certain moves? Wouldn't it be unfair if he was revamped while everyone else stays the same or gets minimally altered?

 

[Lyndis_]

But don't you think it's unfair that Ganondorf gets more salt surrounding his portrayal when other characters are lacking certain moves? Wouldn't it be unfair if he was revamped while everyone else stays the same or gets minimally altered?

I mean... not really. If people don't want the other characters to get overhauled as much, then they don't. If they do, they do.

Why even bring up other characters? Who says only Ganondorf has to get changed? It's a Ganondorf centric thread so he's gonna be the focus regardless.

I personally don't think DK is really missing out with one move as opposed to almost all of Dorf's moves. It's not hypocritical, it's just literally a thread focused towards a specific character.

Would you go into a DK thead and say "Hey you're a hypocrite for wanting DK to use a barrel when Ganondorf doesn't get his magic projectiles!"? Seems pretty silly.

 

[Quillion]

I mean... not really. If people don't want the other characters to get overhauled as much, then they don't. If they do, they do.

Why even bring up other characters? Who says only Ganondorf has to get changed? It's a Ganondorf centric thread so he's gonna be the focus regardless.

I personally don't think DK is really missing out with one move as opposed to almost all of Dorf's moves. It's not hypocritical, it's just literally a thread focused towards a specific character.

Would you go into a DK thead and say "Hey you're a hypocrite for wanting DK to use a barrel when Ganondorf doesn't get his magic projectiles!"? Seems pretty silly.

Because people are glossing over two facts:

1. Ganondorf does have moves from his games.
2. Other characters don't have their major moves from their games.

There is no reason for people to act entitled to a new moveset for Ganondorf when he does have moves from his games, and due to how Smash works, a lot of things are both added and discarded in the process for all characters, including Ganondorf.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Honestly, I’m ok with most of his moveset, I’d just like a bit of a change to his specials. Mario got a brand new special for Brawl because of Super Mario Sunshine, and the transformers all got new specials in Sm4sh.

He did het a really cool moveset in a side game though, so that hurt a bit. I didn’t have a problem with Brawl Falcondorf, but after HW released, SSB4 was disappointing.

But I doubt we’re alone - I’m sure other threads detail the changes they want to their favorites too.

 

[RouffWestie]

I feel like the developers are perfectly capable of implementing an option to swtich between a classic moveset and an complete secondary moveset for a character. I would applaud the inclusion, and I would love to see it done for some characters but I don't think it's likely. Their idea of custom moves in Smash 4 seems to be how they would tackle the issue of characters getting additional moves. It's poorly done in my opinion, but I think it's the approach they're going to stick with it in this iteration of Smash yet again.

 

[Quillion]

CaptainAmerica : It can be argued that Pokkén Tournament portrays Pikachu, Lucario, Charizard, and Mewtwo in a much cooler way than Smash does.

Yet, I don't see any discussion of Pokkén in the threads on this forum.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

CaptainAmerica : It can be argued that Pokkén Tournament portrays Pikachu, Lucario, Charizard, and Mewtwo in a much cooler way than Smash does.

Yet, I don't see any discussion of Pokkén in the threads on this forum.

Each thread is different. I can’t speak for them. But if they favor something from Pokken, then they should discuss it, by all means.

But there are also current discussions in the Link and Mario threads about whether or not they should get ground-up overhauls to accomodate a brand new set of moves based on their latest blockbuster games, and as a Link main, I don’t want too many changes. On a side note there, he did just get a jump attack in the last game, which is one of his best moves, and a series staple.

It is perfectly fine if you prefer the Dorf as he is. Personally, I really liked his HW kit, but I know it won’t happen. He does have one special in HW where he generates a ball of dark energy and smashes it with basically the same animation as his Falcon Punch, so that could make it better. I love his side special as is. His other two are too obvious Falcon moves, which don’t have so obvious of a use in the games. His normal attacks have a lot of power, which is appropriate, but he hasn’t been seen lately in the games without a sword so it does seem to be missing a bit, especially if you use a sword in a fighting game only to pill it out and taunt.

Part of it may also be that Ganondorf has been at the bottom of the tier list for ages, so a quicker moveset may make him more viable.

But as people have pointed out, this is the Ganondorf thread, so of course we are going to favor discussions on improving Ganondorf. Changing moves does not imply that he is the only character that should change at all, but his origin as a clone has just been following him along since Melee. It’s perfectly obvious to even a casual viewer that some moves have been changed to be in line with moves in the game, but it does feel a bit like “how can we make this move look like something he does,” not “what does he do that can translate into a good move.”

 

[Morbi]

Because people are glossing over two facts:

1. Ganondorf does have moves from his games.
2. Other characters don't have their major moves from their games.

There is no reason for people to act entitled to a new moveset for Ganondorf when he does have moves from his games, and due to how Smash works, a lot of things are both added and discarded in the process for all characters, including Ganondorf.

Wait, what? Which moves are you talking about? I am definitely drawing a blank.

 

[Lyndis_]

Because people are glossing over two facts:

1. Ganondorf does have moves from his games.
2. Other characters don't have their major moves from their games.

There is no reason for people to act entitled to a new moveset for Ganondorf when he does have moves from his games, and due to how Smash works, a lot of things are both added and discarded in the process for all characters, including Ganondorf.

The moves he has referencing things he's actually done are few and far between. Why are you so persistent on bring up other characters in a Ganondorf thread?

Also, I'd say Ganondorf bares the worst resemblance to their actual character in the entire roster. Every single move is an edited CF one.

When did I ever act entitled to a new moveset? Did you literally just come to this thread to flame? It really seems like it.

 

[Quillion]

When did I ever act entitled to a new moveset? Did you literally just come to this thread to flame? It really seems like it.

I apologize if I seem like I'm flaming, but I really want people here to think about what's fair for Ganondorf and the rest of the cast at that.

Wait, what? Which moves are you talking about? I am definitely drawing a blank.

The moves he has referencing things he's actually done are few and far between. Why are you so persistent on bring up other characters in a Ganondorf thread?

Also, I'd say Ganondorf bares the worst resemblance to their actual character in the entire roster. Every single move is an edited CF one.

I'll post this article again. Specifically, a section in the article that proves both of you wrong:

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/07/ganondorf-smash-bros/#ChangesAfterMelee

 

[Morbi]

I apologize if I seem like I'm flaming, but I really want people here to think about what's fair for Ganondorf and the rest of the cast at that.





I'll post this article again. Specifically, a section in the article that proves both of you wrong:

http://sourcegaming.info/2015/09/07/ganondorf-smash-bros/#ChangesAfterMelee

Not going to lie, now I think you are just a troll. His poses, an attack from artwork, and a reusing the same kick twice that is not even the same animation is not really what either of us were talking about.

I will give you the reworked side-special, however.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

There is no double standard. Hell, I’d love if like Mewtwo got some of its material from Pokken for its Smash moveset but know that’s not gonna happen. Bright side, Mewtwo at least got buffed to be considered high tier in SSB4, and with the laughable mess he was in Melee, that’s hella progress. No reason the same can’t be done for Ganondorf with that said, with or without any major moveset changes.

 

[FunAtParties]

I'd love to just move past this meta stuff, and just discuss the Dorf.

I really want the character to be a culmination of Ganon and OoT with small references elsewhere. Give him a trident (stylized with that sweet BotW guardian look) and those OoT mage powers and I'd be happy.

Some things I'd like to see

Neutral B: Dead Man's Volley. Large slow moving projectile that drags opponent in. Harder to reflect than in OoT.

Side B: Cape. I want Mario to get a new side b, so I figured Ganondorf could snatch this one up. Reflects projectiles, but drags in opponents that it hits, like Forsburn in RoA.

Down B: Ground Pound. Slams his fist into the ground hitting anything near it. In the air, if tapped, it will work like current forward air, if held he'll plummet towards the ground. Held aerial down b, will drag the opponent down with if close at the time of action, much like his current down b.

Up B: Teleport. Slower and shorter than Zelda's but a similar idea with the hitboxes.

FSmash. Trident throw. Throws trident forward where it spins in place. Longer the charge the longer it stays out. Multihit attack that can set traps, cause lots of damage, and eats up shields. Ganondorf can act before trident returns leading to kill set ups.

I have more, but those are the important ones.

 

[NintendoKnight]

While personally I'd prefer to have Ganondorf take his Hyrule Warriors look into Smash 5, if they did decide to base his appearance off of BotW it's going to be very hit or miss for me.

I recently discovered this Calamity Ganondorf design by Dogbomber, which I think looks just spectacular.

Spoiler: Big ol' hi-res artwork

I definitely hope Nintendo finally decides to overhaul Ganondorf so that he isn't based off C. Falcon any longer.
I know a lot want him to at least get a few more moves or specials, but I really just want them to completely redo him. He doesn't even feel a little bit like Ganondorf to me as a clone.

Holy crap, that's spectacular artwork!

Honestly, the only BotW-styled artwork for Ganondorf I've seen is art that puts him into the Desert Voe outfit.

Spoiler: Also Big Hi-res artwork

Obviously, he'd be a little too sexy and not very threatening, but Shulk got to wear very little so I'm sure this is OK.

 

[FunAtParties]

Holy crap, that's spectacular artwork!

Honestly, the only BotW-styled artwork for Ganondorf I've seen is art that puts him into the Desert Voe outfit.

Spoiler: Also Big Hi-res artwork

Obviously, he'd be a little too sexy and not very threatening, but Shulk got to wear very little so I'm sure this is OK.

Like I said I'm really liking these BotW designs

 

[majorasmaskfan]

But don't you think it's unfair that Ganondorf gets more salt surrounding his portrayal when other characters are lacking certain moves? Wouldn't it be unfair if he was revamped while everyone else stays the same or gets minimally altered?

I swear if emperor sheev palpatine was for some reason in smash and he was a captain falcon clone, that used no force abilities, no force lightning, no lightsabers. You'd be ok with it.

 

[Quillion]

I swear if emperor sheev palpatine was for some reason in smash and he was a captain falcon clone, that used no force abilities, no force lightning, no lightsabers. You'd be ok with it.

I'm sure Ridley fans would accept him being a Charizard clone, but apparently Ganondorf "has too much material" to not be a clone of Falcon.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

Low blow. lol Well it would be better than nothing or having a nonplayable role again, but some fans (myself included) would still be disappointed to some extent for what could’ve been with the moveset, even though we’d all still be grateful to finally have him added to the roster.

Bottom line, it’s been too long for desperate fans to make the likes of Ridley an all or nothing kind of deal far as moveset or anything, while Ganondorf’s had plenty of time to be reconciled as a playable character but hasn’t, and instead has only gotten worse since Melee, while his villain counterparts Mewtwo and Bowser have gotten better/been majorly buffed since then. Time has not been good to Smash Ganondorf, whether you consider being a semi-clone or whatever part of the problem or not.

 

[Lyndis_]

Low blow. lol Well it would be better than nothing or having a nonplayable role again, but some fans (myself included) would still be disappointed to some extent for what could’ve been with the moveset, even though we’d all still be grateful to finally have him added to the roster.

Bottom line, it’s been too long for desperate fans to make the likes of Ridley an all or nothing kind of deal far as moveset or anything, while Ganondorf’s had plenty of time to be reconciled as a playable character but hasn’t, and instead has only gotten worse since Melee, while his villain counterparts Mewtwo and Bowser have gotten better/been majorly buffed since then. Time has not been good to Smash Ganondorf, whether you consider being a semi-clone or whatever part of the problem or not.

You'd still have a lot of people disappointed with Ridley being a Charizard clone, too. They don't even fight similarly, as Ridley primarily uses his tail.

Even then, Ganondorf and CF are way less similar than Ridley and Charizard.

 

[majorasmaskfan]

Smash 4 didn't introduce any new semi clones, just skins as clones. We are prob not getting clones that require effort, either original moveset or nothing.

 

[Quillion]

Low blow. lol Well it would be better than nothing or having a nonplayable role again, but some fans (myself included) would still be disappointed to some extent for what could’ve been with the moveset, even though we’d all still be grateful to finally have him added to the roster.

Bottom line, it’s been too long for desperate fans to make the likes of Ridley an all or nothing kind of deal far as moveset or anything, while Ganondorf’s had plenty of time to be reconciled as a playable character but hasn’t, and instead has only gotten worse since Melee, while his villain counterparts Mewtwo and Bowser have gotten better/been majorly buffed since then. Time has not been good to Smash Ganondorf, whether you consider being a semi-clone or whatever part of the problem or not.

What about Wolf? He had some material to work with, particularly with Assault, yet his "Laser, Forward Dash, 8-way Dash, Reflector" moveset shared by Fox and Falco is very well-accepted.

 

[NintendoKnight]

What about Wolf? He had some material to work with, particularly with Assault, yet his "Laser, Forward Dash, 8-way Dash, Reflector" moveset shared by Fox and Falco is very well-accepted.

What material? What did Wolf have in Assault that neither Fox nor Falco had? His rolling dodge was an illusory vanish (the only thing unique about him outside of his stats, mind you), but that was translated into the Wolf Flash. Otherwise, he's so similar to them in his own game, that him being a clone in Brawl isn't that big of a deal. He's essentially a clone in Star Fox Assault since all the characters play so similarly.

Also, why does it matter about Wolf? He's not who we're talking about here.

Smash 4 didn't introduce any new semi clones, just skins as clones. We are prob not getting clones that require effort, either original moveset or nothing.

Thank you for bringing this up. That allows me to segue to my next point:

If Ganondorf had been introduced in Super Smash Bros. For Wii U, instead of Melee, HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN A CLONE.

Because of his status as a Melee veteran, Ganondorf is being anchored down as a clone because of "muh legacy."

 

[Quillion]

What material? What did Wolf have in Assault that neither Fox nor Falco had? His rolling dodge was an illusory vanish (the only thing unique about him outside of his stats, mind you), but that was translated into the Wolf Flash. Otherwise, he's so similar to them in his own game, that him being a clone in Brawl isn't that big of a deal. He's essentially a clone in Star Fox Assault since all the characters play so similarly.

Also, why does it matter about Wolf? He's not who we're talking about here.

It matters because when Wolf was a new character, no one wanted to give him different weapons and moves to make him more unique from the existing Star Fox cast.

Likewise with Toon Link, no one wanted him to have moves representing different Zelda items; he makes sense as being a faster, weaker version of the main Link.

 

[Deleted member]

DK doesn't need his barrel throw and Roy doesn't need his sword beam. Why does Ganon need a projectile?

I gotta stop you there buddy. Roy has never had any "Sword beams".

The closest thing he has is that he can use the Sword of Seals (his signature weapon) to trigger explosions at long range as showcased in this FE6 video. This is where Roy's Final Smash in Smash 4 originates from (before you ask, Roy can also do this in close range too, and aside from the video i showed you, he doesn't have any attack that comes close to a projectile).

For me, it sounds like you don't know what abilities Roy actually has and instead you give a weak example in order to defend Sakurai's questionable implementation of Ganondorf.

 

[NintendoKnight]

It matters because when Wolf was a new character, no one wanted to give him different weapons and moves to make him more unique from the existing Star Fox cast.

Because, again, he isn't all that unique from the Star Fox cast. Those weapons from Assault are better off being items, not moves. If you wanted a more unique Star Fox character, Krystal would like a word with you.

Likewise with Toon Link, no one wanted him to have moves representing different Zelda items; he makes sense as being a faster, weaker version of the main Link.

Oh ho, how wrong you are. Before Toon Link was leaked for Brawl, there were movesets all over the place with him using his Deku Leaf (which is funny because BotW's paraglider), the Grappling Hook, the Wind Waker, The Skull Hammer, and even using the King of Red Lions as his Final Smash.

Instead, he was simply a re-skinned Young Link (whom people also wanted a revamped moveset for, which could have him use his masks. They still do actually.) and left as a clone with only minor adjustments, which disappointed a TON of people.

Comparing source material, Toon Link was slower than Twilight Princess Link (running speed-wise), but they were equal in attack speed. The unique attacks Toon Link could do (such as the parries), Twilight Princess Link pulled off with slightly more speed and do so at will. As far as fighting goes, technically speaking, Twilight Princess Link is superior to Toon Link in literally every way.

Yet, for the sake of the archetype, Toon Link was adjusted to be smaller, faster, and weaker... Oh, who are we kidding? Toon Link was WAY stronger than Link in Brawl. The difference between their strengths didn't appear until Sm4sh.

 

[Ridley_Prime]

The only main problem people and I have with Wolf is the Landmaster final smash; same with Falco who prefers the air. Arwing and Wolfen for them respectively would’ve made the most sense for a FS, but with Sakurai’s habit of reusing assets as much as he does, Landmaster X3 is what we got in the end... Yet he gave Dark Pit a different final smash. Blegh.

Wolf’s specials are very different though apart from the reflector. Ganondorf’s side special is the only one that’s remotely different from Capt Falcon. At least he got a more unique FS though as Ganon, so he has that over Wolf.