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I normally don't tend to get into arguments a lot, but im also on the boat that Ganondrof should get reworked.
Why? because if Sakurai had actual development time to implement Ganondorf, i garantee you that Ganondorf would barely be any similar to the Ganondorf we have in Smash. It's all lazyness and not giving him proper development time to do him justice and the "it would alineate people" is just a PR excuse (because people were sooooooo up in amrs when Bowser got changed, dind't they?)
The only main problem people and I have with Wolf is the Landmaster final smash; same with Falco who prefers the air. Arwing and Wolfen for them respectively would’ve made the most sense for a FS, but with Sakurai’s habit of reusing assets as much as he does, Landmaster X3 is what we got in the end... Yet he gave Dark Pit a different final smash. Blegh.
Wolf’s specials are very different though apart from the reflector. Ganondorf’s side special is the only one that’s remotely different from Capt Falcon. At least he got a more unique FS though as Ganon, so he has that over Wolf.
Yeah sorry man, you are part of the minority here. Most people i have seen have recieved Bowser's reworked moveset in a very good light. I mean go ask most people if they prefer Smash 4 Bowser or Brawl/Melee Bowser and you will see.
Yeah sorry man, you are part of the minority here. Most people i have seen have recieved Bowser's reworked moveset in a very good light. I mean go ask most people if they prefer Smash 4 Bowser or Brawl/Melee Bowser and you will see.
The outcry will be overshadowed by the praise of people who actually want Ganondorf to be well.............Ganondorf. Just like with Bowser.
As for the the slow but super-strong niche, i don't really care personally, im more concerned about Ganondorf using his true powers rather than filling a supposed "niche" (we already got Mighty Glaciers in the game anyway, regardless if they use their fists or not)
If people will be so up in arms about Ganondorf beign revamped, why is Ganondorf the most requested character to be revamped? Why is he always bought up when people talk about character inaccuracies or redesigning character movesets?
We can't listen to hard core people on wavedashing or a stage hazard toggle, but them wanting the slow strong captain falcon moveset is the the one thing we will listen to and so we will keep dorf the same.
only way f zero will get a new rep, no where near popular enough to justify a 2nd original moveset. If you wanted to be really lazy just use blood falcon.
Major problem with that: no one really likes Black Shadow as a character in himself.
Look at this reddit thread. There are a lot of people agreeing his design is rather bland, and his home series doesn't really give him much of a personality.
And really, what's the point of introducing a character to shunt a moveset onto them? Would you want Classic Link to absorb Link's current moveset should he be revamped to something more BotW-ish?
Major problem with that: no one really likes Black Shadow as a character in himself.
Look at this reddit thread. There are a lot of people agreeing his design is rather bland, and his home series doesn't really give him much of a personality.
You've linked a 0 karma thread from 3 years ago, with the couple 'top' comments disagreeing with it. It's a tiny sample size, hardly even supports your argument and is a biased perspective (not that this thread isn't also biased, but comments in that thread are more likely to be supportive while the overall votes are better representative of public opinion).
I wouldn't have any kind of problem with that outcome for Link, though he has an alternate that already sports a variation of the same moveset.
Ultimately you're arguing that every single person needs to have their opinions accounted for, and that no change should be made because there will be some people who don't like change. This is simply unreasonable. You can't please everyone so concessions are made.
You've just argued against Ganondorf ever recieving his current moveset. He was introduced in Melee and had Captain Falcon's moveset shunted onto him to save time.
What about Wolf? He had some material to work with, particularly with Assault, yet his "Laser, Forward Dash, 8-way Dash, Reflector" moveset shared by Fox and Falco is very well-accepted.
I'm bringing some info from Ganondorf battles from ZeldaWiki
Ocarina of Time Ganondorf will cause shock waves if Link gets close and will unleash two types of ranged magic attacks if he is at a distance. Link can reflect the first type by slashing at it with the Master Sword (or an Empty Bottle), engaging in a battle of Dead Man's Volley against the Evil King. The second type of ranged magic consists of many different orbs, so only a well-timed Great Spin Attack will reflect it. However, while Ganondorf is charging this attack, he is highly vulnerable to the Light Arrow.
The Wind Waker Actually the wiki doesn't say much about his abilities here, he only uses some cool moves with his double swords
Twilight Princess -As puppet Zelda:
Because Ganondorf takes over Zelda's body, Link must fight Ganon as Puppet Zelda first. Puppet Zelda attacks similarly to Phantom Ganon in Ocarina of Time. Her first attack will likely be the electricity ball. When she throws it at Link with his sword, the young hero must hit it back using his sword, taking both Link and Zelda into a match of Dead Man's Volley. Link is also capable of using an empty bottle instead of his sword in this sequence. As soon Zelda gets hit by the energy ball, Puppet Zelda will try a new attack. She'll try to charge Link with her sword, forcing Link out of the way or she will make a glowing Triforce under Link's feet, which Link must step out of to avoid damage. Following this, Puppet Zelda will eventually revert to tossing her signature energy ball at Link. -Horse Battle: After the cut-scene, Link and Princess Zelda will be fighting Ganondorf on horseback. The young hero must chase after the Dark Lord and get close enough so that Princess Zelda can strike him with a Light Arrow. When Ganondorf is hit, Link must catch up and attack him with the Master Sword. If Link is too slow, Ganondorf will knock Link off of Epona with his sword, Ganondorf will also summon ghostly henchmen to charge Link. -Sword Duel: Now Link is face to face with the Dark Lord himself. Although his attacks are not as strong as Ganon's, it is much harder to avoid them. His most often used attack is a stab, which can be avoided with a back flip. His second most used attack is a slash, and although this attack has the same amount of strength as the previous one, it has a larger range. His strongest attack is one that is taken from Link: he'll bash the young hero and then perform a spin attack. If Link gets hit by the bash, the spin attack is almost impossible to avoid, but he will delay the spin attack if he hits Link into the electricity wall with the bash.
Most of Link's attacks will have no effect on Ganondorf, either because he will avoid them with his sword, or his armor will protect him. Link will have a chance to hit him when Ganondorf finishes an attack and the young hero is behind him, or by using a well-timed Back Slice. Should Ganondorf miss Link with one of his attacks, he will jump behind Link and try to land another blow on the young hero. The easiest, and more preferable, way to defeat the Dark Lord is to back away, and when Ganondorf charges at Link, the "chance" icon will appear at the bottom of the screen. Pressing A will cause Link to lock swords with him, and by rapidly tapping A, Ganondorf will be thrown off balance. When stunned, Ganondorf can be attacked with the Master Sword until he falls back. After taking enough hits, Ganondorf will collapse to the ground, where Link must perform the Ending Blow to finally put an end to the Dark Lord.
So there are plenty of powers and attacks that could be used by him
Since i see nobody as posted this, i may as well post it here:
That moveset with Sword Ganondorf is perfect for his Twilight Princess incarnation. If he was newcomer in Brawl instead of Melee, i feel he would had this moveset instead. The same goes for OOT Ganondorf, he looks like that he would have this way in Melee if was given Development time instead of beign a last minute clone.
Since i see nobody as posted this, i may as well post it here:
That moveset with Sword Ganondorf is perfect for his Twilight Princess incarnation. If he was newcomer in Brawl instead of Melee, i feel he would had this moveset instead. The same goes for OOT Ganondorf, he looks like that he would have this way in Melee if was given Development time instead of beign a last minute clone.
This is the thing that convinced me Ganondorf needs to really be reevaluated. Always knew Ganondorf could have a great moveset of his own, but its easier to see when you actually, you know, see it. Plus now we know he can have 2 vreat movesets of his own. A combination of those 2 kits is the ideal Ganondorf imo.
I feel like Sakurai is too comfortable with Ganondorf as a clone. He's an easy fallback character that he can get did to fluff the roster last second, and people will always be happy with his return because it's frickin Ganondorf. I'd like him to be higher on Sakurai's priority list.
Edit: also want to mention that I just noticed Clairen's design is really similar to that sword Ganondorf
Since i see nobody as posted this, i may as well post it here:
That moveset with Sword Ganondorf is perfect for his Twilight Princess incarnation. If he was newcomer in Brawl instead of Melee, i feel he would had this moveset instead. The same goes for OOT Ganondorf, he looks like that he would have this way in Melee if was given Development time instead of beign a last minute clone.
1. I genuinely don't know how you got that from the video... at all. They don't play similarly in the slightest. I've used the mod previously (and this is the 1.0 version, the 2.1 version is even more distinct.) I can't even find one move here that functions the same or is based off of Ike's or Mewtwo's. Maybe shooting the sun orb, because it's a generic projectile? Nothing else.
2. Being similar to Ike or Mewtwo would be a problem, but being a direct clone of Captain Falcon isn't...?
3. Even if they were similar, and it was a problem (yet not being similar to CF for some reason) why couldn't Nintendo go their own way with it?
There's multiple ways to do it, being that Ganondorf has a lot of material to work with, and these are two completely distinct versions of Ganondorf that could be merged or take any number of different directions yet still stay true to the character. I'm sorry if not, but it's really starting to feel like you're trolling us.
1. I genuinely don't know how you got that from the video... at all. They don't play similarly in the slightest. I've used the mod previously (and this is the 1.0 version, the 2.1 version is even more distinct.) I can't even find one move here that functions the same or is based off of Ike's or Mewtwo's. Maybe shooting the sun orb, because it's a generic projectile? Nothing else.
2. Being similar to Ike or Mewtwo would be a problem, but being a direct clone of Captain Falcon isn't...?
3. Even if they were similar, and it was a problem (yet not being similar to CF for some reason) why couldn't Nintendo go their own way with it?
There's multiple ways to do it, being that Ganondorf has a lot of material to work with, and these are two completely distinct versions of Ganondorf that could be merged or take any number of different directions yet still stay true to the character. I'm sorry if not, but it's really starting to feel like you're trolling us.
Sword Ganon is a heavy sword user with virtually no gimmicks to set him apart from Ike. Magic Ganon has a chargeable projectile, a reflector, and a teleport. If we're going by PM's unique stuff, he even has a float like PM Mewtwo.
Because the niche of being an extremely heavy, slow, and imposing brawler needs to be filled with a character that is genuinely liked on his own merits. Not by someone who gets the moveset as a "hand-me-down."
Because it's too late for that. Changing Ganondorf radically would be unethical to the massive amount of fans who like him as is.
People who like Ganondorf for his merits and not his moveset are far more likely to want his moveset to be similar to, you know, his merits. And again, you're literally asking for him to not have received the hand me down in the first place.
Again: as opposed to the massive amount of fans who want him changed? You can't please everyone.
Please, just please, I have one request. Don't treat us like we're stupid, or blind fanboys. Please, listen to what we're saying and actually consider it before posting again. Everyone here is disagreeing with you and at some point you need to stop and think if maybe we have a point?
I’ll say again: I don’t want a ground-up redo. Ganondorf should be a slower powerhouse. Hyrule Warriors quicker version did seem a little weird to me, but I loved the design and the sword style, especially the specials.
I would not change his dash speed as much as make a better run animation that looked like a menace aporoching, and not an old man who can’t do more than a 20 minute mile. Maybe have a float-run insead of huffing along. And definitely give him a model where he doesn’t look like the derpiest character in the game.
Keep the side special, add a magic ball to his neutral special that he destroys to a projectile (that one move from HW where he makes a ball of energy and destroys it with a punch), maybe give him a demon-arm summon for a down special or final smash. Put a sword in his hand for some neutrals to extend range on some of his attacks, and fix his utilt so you don’t end up helpless if you whiff the usmash. I do like a lot of the kicks (usmash, side smash).
I would like a larger overhaul than for any other character, but definitely not changing everything.
I’ll say again: I don’t want a ground-up redo. Ganondorf should be a slower powerhouse. Hyrule Warriors quicker version did seem a little weird to me, but I loved the design and the sword style, especially the specials.
I would not change his dash speed as much as make a better run animation that looked like a menace aporoching, and not an old man who can’t do more than a 20 minute mile. Maybe have a float-run insead of huffing along. And definitely give him a model where he doesn’t look like the derpiest character in the game.
Keep the side special, add a magic ball to his neutral special that he destroys to a projectile (that one move from HW where he makes a ball of energy and destroys it with a punch), maybe give him a demon-arm summon for a down special or final smash. Put a sword in his hand for some neutrals to extend range on some of his attacks, and fix his utilt so you don’t end up helpless if you whiff the usmash. I do like a lot of the kicks (usmash, side smash).
I would like a larger overhaul than for any other character, but definitely not changing everything.
Honestly, I would just be happy with Deadman's Volley and slight animation changes on 2-3 normals. He just needs SOMETHING. But yeah, a model swap would be fine too. I really dislike how he feels when you control him because of it. Not necessarily his speed. But I feel like a walking tree.
At this point, I would not mind just going back to Melee where he was even more of a clone because at least he was not so stagnant.
I think a Bowser-like revamp where all he has is a different stance, higher movement speed, and higher attack speed would be the most realistic option.
Melee Ganondorf is the best-designed heavy character in the whole Smash series, in my opinion. He's slow enough to give him a sense of huge weight, powerful enough to give him a lot of "oomph" behind his attacks, but quick enough that he can keep up with the rest of the cast.
Heck, I think all of the heavy cast should be slightly revamped to be more like Melee Ganondorf.
I think a Bowser-like revamp where all he has is a different stance, higher movement speed, and higher attack speed would be the most realistic option.
Melee Ganondorf is the best-designed heavy character in the whole Smash series, in my opinion. He's slow enough to give him a sense of huge weight, powerful enough to give him a lot of "oomph" behind his attacks, but quick enough that he can keep up with the rest of the cast.
Heck, I think all of the heavy cast should be slightly revamped to be more like Melee Ganondorf.
You can have all of those attributes for Ganondorf...
...as long as he has a completely different moveset that has no relation to Captain Falcon whatsoever. You don't need to be a clone to express those attributes, considering the character he's a clone of has none of those attributes other than hitting hard.
And, technically speaking, is the best designed heavy character in the whole series. Completely original moveset, hits hard when needed, decently fast, strong projectile game, above average recovery, strong grab game, has an aerial meteor smash, at least one of his tilts can kill, insanely low crouch stance with a crawl, and he owns plenty of options to get out of trouble or apply pressure.
Literally everything that makes Melee Ganondorf useful, I guarantee Snake does better. It's also handled in a far more original fashion, based off the character's known merits from his series.
So if every heavy character were revamped to be more like Snake, each one would be better off than being revamped to be like some clone.
And, technically speaking, is the best designed heavy character in the whole series. Completely original moveset, hits hard when needed, decently fast, strong projectile game, above average recovery, strong grab game, has an aerial meteor smash, at least one of his tilts can kill, insanely low crouch stance with a crawl, and he owns plenty of options to get out of trouble or apply pressure.
Literally everything that makes Melee Ganondorf useful, I guarantee Snake does better. It's also handled in a far more original fashion, based off the character's known merits from his series.
So if every heavy character were revamped to be more like Snake, each one would be better off than being revamped to be like some clone.
Good point, though I'd argue that Snake's design suffers greatly from Brawl's engine punishing aggressive play, and otherwise, he's very camp-oriented.
I'm not arguing that Melee Ganondorf is the best designed heavy character because of his relatively high tier position, but I'd argue that Melee Ganondorf is simply the most fun and well-realized vision of what a heavy character can feel like. Snake is over-reliant on his projectile game, and I also feel his moves are way too snappy to feel heavy.
Quillion
Can I ask why you don't seem to see DK as a well realised heavy brawler? He was relatively good in Sm4sh and I believe was the highest tier heavy. It seems like you're comparing everything to Melee balance which just doesn't seem like the greatest idea given how massive the difference between top and bottom tiers were in that, not to mention that Ganondorf's relative strength in that game is against so many actual duds that don't benefit from the mechanics used at higher levels (which can be seen pretty well when they overtake him afterwards). Also he was far from 'relatively high' tier.
Quillion
Can I ask why you don't seem to see DK as a well realised heavy brawler? He was relatively good in Sm4sh and I believe was the highest tier heavy. It seems like you're comparing everything to Melee balance which just doesn't seem like the greatest idea given how massive the difference between top and bottom tiers were in that, not to mention that Ganondorf's relative strength in that game is against so many actual duds that don't benefit from the mechanics used at higher levels (which can be seen pretty well when they overtake him afterwards). Also he was far from 'relatively high' tier.
I guess it's because I see DK as in a different niche than "pure" heavy. He moves rather fast but has slow attacks. Same deal with 4!Bowser, and Captain Falcon, the latter to an extreme degree.
And I say "relatively high tier" for Melee Ganondorf because in comparison to the other heavy characters in that game, he was definitely the best. Let's face it; Smash has never benefitted a heavy playstyle from 64 to now.
I like playing Ganon as he currently is, but whenever I think of the moveset he could have had instead of, well, this, I get sad. Not only is he a clone of a completely unrelated character, he is a clone of a character with a completely fabricated moveset.
I like playing Ganon as he currently is, but whenever I think of the moveset he could have had instead of, well, this, I get sad. Not only is he a clone of a completely unrelated character, he is a clone of a character with a completely fabricated moveset.
You know, people complain that Ganondorf's moveset only resembles "one-off" moves that he did in a few Zelda games whenever I mention that he does have moves from his games.
But isn't Mario's moveset just as one-off as Ganondorf's? While Ganondorf has used hand-to-hand moves in three main games (OoT, WW, and TP) and one spinoff (HW), Mario has only used fistfighting in one main game (64) and one spinoff (SMRPG). Mario has completely ditched fistfighting as his melee fighting style since 64, instead using his hammer for melee whenever the situation calls for it.
And yet, NO ONE wants Mario to be a hammer user. People are happy with his brawling from Smash 64 to this day. You can't even argue that Mario can be excused for using one-off moves for being non-mainstream like Ness, since Mario is STILL the best-selling video game franchise.
So if no one wants Mario to use his hammer, what good reason is there for Ganon to use his sword, trident, or magic projectiles?
Well the hammer's been a notable item in Smash since the beginning and based on that and how classic Mario was with it (instantly killing any enemies in his way), wouldn't that be kinda OP for him to have normally? Don't remember how he was with it in the later Mario games though, so can't say for sure, but then again, you have the likes of Dedede and Ice Climbers in Smash with a hammer already, so if Mario just had one now he'd probably be called a clone of them to an extent by some; hell if I know.
edit: Oh, and some do want F.L.U.D.D. to be replaced in Mario's moveset regardless, make no mistake.
I can live with what we got of current Ganondorf if he's just buffed more stat-wise, but constantly trying to look for reasons to invalidate people wanting him to have a weapon or more magic is just silly. I'd love if Mewtwo had more drawn from his now far more expansive PKMN movepool (compared to what he had in Melee/2001/gen 2) beyond the final smash, but doesn't mean I expect it to happen.
You know, people complain that Ganondorf's moveset only resembles "one-off" moves that he did in a few Zelda games whenever I mention that he does have moves from his games.
But isn't Mario's moveset just as one-off as Ganondorf's? While Ganondorf has used hand-to-hand moves in three main games (OoT, WW, and TP) and one spinoff (HW), Mario has only used fistfighting in one main game (64) and one spinoff (SMRPG). Mario has completely ditched fistfighting as his melee fighting style since 64, instead using his hammer for melee whenever the situation calls for it.
And yet, NO ONE wants Mario to be a hammer user. People are happy with his brawling from Smash 64 to this day. You can't even argue that Mario can be excused for using one-off moves for being non-mainstream like Ness, since Mario is STILL the best-selling video game franchise.
So if no one wants Mario to use his hammer, what good reason is there for Ganon to use his sword, trident, or magic projectiles?
Again, the inherent problem is that Ganon is a clone of an F-Zero character and they are taking a character with a lot of potential and watering it down as a result. I might be crucified for saying this; however, Mario does not have a lot of potential. He has always just run, jump, basic actions, and used power-ups throughout his history.
Most Paper Mario fans DO want this hammer and if it was missing, they would probably act similarly to how Ganon fans act when our favorite WARLOCK does everything but the cool part of Falcon's kit.
What good reason is there? Nearly everyone that is not hopping on "his" (Falcon's) style wants it whereas, as you yourself stated, nobody wants Mario's hammer. That is probably the biggest difference and most notable reason to do it, actually. I am not even holding this argument in high regard because we are comparing half eaten apples to oranges.
Lastly, there is a perfect solution. For people who want heavy-weight Falcon, you can add Black Shadow who could quite literally do everything you have come to love from Ganon. Ganon can keep his side-special and tilts, which are his only differences, and everyone is happy outside of the people that love heavy Falcon and Ganon (but clearly not that much given they want him to be treated to sloppy seconds and one of the worst executed kits in Smash history).
What good reason is there to not do that? There is not. The only reason it has not and will not happen is because Sakurai, for whatever reason, agrees with your faulty logic.
Again, the inherent problem is that Ganon is a clone of an F-Zero character and they are taking a character with a lot of potential and watering it down as a result. I might be crucified for saying this; however, Mario does not have a lot of potential. He has always just run, jump, basic actions, and used power-ups throughout his history.
Most Paper Mario fans DO want this hammer and if it was missing, they would probably act similarly to how Ganon fans act when our favorite WARLOCK does everything but the cool part of Falcon's kit.
Except Lucina fans accepted her being a Marth clone. No one was exactly vocal about Smash not adapting a lot of her potential skills like Aether, Luna, Galeforce, Lancefaire, or Aegis.
What good reason is there? Nearly everyone that is not hopping on "his" (Falcon's) style wants it whereas, as you yourself stated, nobody wants Mario's hammer. That is probably the biggest difference and most notable reason to do it, actually. I am not even holding this argument in high regard because we are comparing half eaten apples to oranges.
Don't you argumentum ad populum at me, mister! If a vocal group of fans had their way, Fire Emblem wouldn't get a mage, a female character, or a widely-requested lord with a flaming sword, all of whom were demands from the Fire Emblem fandom themselves.
Lastly, there is a perfect solution. For people who want heavy-weight Falcon, you can add Black Shadow who could quite literally do everything you have come to love from Ganon. Ganon can keep his side-special and tilts, which are his only differences, and everyone is happy outside of the people that love heavy Falcon and Ganon (but clearly not that much given they want him to be treated to sloppy seconds and one of the worst executed kits in Smash history).
Look, I don't entirely approve of Doc being the "Mario with Tornado" in the roster. He's a bit saved by the fact that he has different stats, but I would much rather that Smash took PM's route and combined the two characters and did away with FLUDD altogether. And I know for a fact that a lot of people feel the same way.
Shunting Ganon's current moveset onto Black Shadow and just giving the latter the same properties as current Ganon would be an even worse idea than Doc.
Since i see nobody as posted this, i may as well post it here:
That moveset with Sword Ganondorf is perfect for his Twilight Princess incarnation. If he was newcomer in Brawl instead of Melee, i feel he would had this moveset instead. The same goes for OOT Ganondorf, he looks like that he would have this way in Melee if was given Development time instead of beign a last minute clone.
I always pictured TP Ganondorf to fight mostly like this. It feels good to see, but I think that time has passed now for Ganondorf. Still don't think much will be changed honestly... But hope is always cool.
Except Lucina fans accepted her being a Marth clone. No one was exactly vocal about Smash not adapting a lot of her potential skills like Aether, Luna, Galeforce, Lancefaire, or Aegis.
Aether is Ike's signature move, thank you very much. We don't need a watered down version of a pre-existing move. Regarding the rest of those, Lucina does not even learn those naturally. She has to reclass TWICE before some of those. And before you say anything, yes I'm aware Tactician Robin can't use dark tomes.
Other than that, there isn't much to the skills in Fire Emblem at all by way of actions performed that may make such skills unique (like Ike's Aether specifically). How the heck would Galeforce even work in Smash? That's literally pointless to bring up because it has no applications outside of a turn-based RPG.
Don't you argumentum ad populum at me, mister! If a vocal group of fans had their way, Fire Emblem wouldn't get a mage, a female character, or a widely-requested lord with a flaming sword, all of whom were demands from the Fire Emblem fandom themselves.
What vocal group didn't want Robin? Also, in regards to a female, no one wanted Lucina. Everyone wanted Lyn...Everyone STILL wants Lyn. Yet we didn't get her, in spite of the vocal majority. (Lyn, by the way, is the most popular Fire Emblem Female. Fire Emblem Heroes confirms this). Also, Roy was DLC and is much beloved from Melee. We were going to get him regardless.
Look, I don't entirely approve of Doc being the "Mario with Tornado" in the roster. He's a bit saved by the fact that he has different stats, but I would much rather that Smash took PM's route and combined the two characters and did away with FLUDD altogether. And I know for a fact that a lot of people feel the same way.
You are aware of how Doc became a playable character in the game right? Doc, Lucina, and Dark Pit (the only clones added to Sm4sh, btw) were all originally going to be costumes for the characters they were based off. No significant development time went into him at all. He's also the exact same person as Mario (he's Mario in a different outfit for crying out loud), so a clone moveset isn't that big of a deal. The fact that we even got Doc was a blessing, stop being picky.
I'm glad we didn't go the Project M route, and I know there are plenty more people who are happy about that as well.
Shunting Ganon's current moveset onto Black Shadow and just giving the latter the same properties as current Ganon would be an even worse idea than Doc.
I don't see how it's a worse idea. Again, what's wrong with Doc? He doesn't have moves, so giving him Mario's moves makes sense. And considering how Doc was only going to be a costume in Sm4sh before they decided to just make him, Lucina, and Dark Pit separate characters (as mentioned before) this is a non-issue.
Black Shadow, being an F-Zero character (which means he also lacks moves), allows him to have a cloned moveset of Falcon and literally NO ONE WOULD BE UPSET. We'd actually kill two birds with one stone: a new F-Zero character, and proper representation for Ganondorf.
Now, regarding your post before this:
You know, people complain that Ganondorf's moveset only resembles "one-off" moves that he did in a few Zelda games whenever I mention that he does have moves from his games.
The one-offs do not compensate for being a clone. You're missing the whole point, or you're arguing for the sake of pettiness.
But isn't Mario's moveset just as one-off as Ganondorf's? While Ganondorf has used hand-to-hand moves in three main games (OoT, WW, and TP) and one spinoff (HW), Mario has only used fistfighting in one main game (64) and one spinoff (SMRPG). Mario has completely ditched fistfighting as his melee fighting style since 64, instead using his hammer for melee whenever the situation calls for it.
1. Ganondorf in OoT does not use hand-to-hand. He punches the ground, that's it. Not really considered hand-to-hand. Heck, his official INTRODUCTION as the enemy has him blasting Link to the floor with a MAGICAL ENERGY BALL. That's literally the first thing you ever see him do.
2. Again, in Wind Waker, he only used his hands in cutscenes. Outside of that he used SWORDS to fight.
3. In Hyrule Warriors, where does he use hand-to-hand? It's literally a game with weapon-based movesets. Where are you getting this? He summons his evil Ganon power to his arm to swipe away the mooks, but that's not really hand-to-hand.
4. Mario is technically using hand-to-hand in every game he's in. Every time he jumps on an enemy, it's called a stomp. Which is essentially an acrobatic kicking-based move. Brawling with fists and feet fits Mario more than anything else. Outside of Mario Power Tennis, Mario+Rabbids, RPGs, and the original Donkey Kong + its sub-series, when has Mario used hammers in his 3D platformers? Let me save you time and tell you he doesn't. Ever. Mario occasionally uses hammers, not mainly.
And yet, NO ONE wants Mario to be a hammer user. People are happy with his brawling from Smash 64 to this day. You can't even argue that Mario can be excused for using one-off moves for being non-mainstream like Ness, since Mario is STILL the best-selling video game franchise.
Honestly, I've grown tired of this. This is the weakest argument I've seen from you, yet. You're literally basing your entire argument against Ganondorf upon how other characters aren't being handled like how YOU would want. That does not a good argument make.
But to humor you, Mario's own series doesn't give him a ton of things to work with on a regular basis. He doesn't need a ton of things to work with. He's kept as the most basic character for a reason, and Smash also carries this. His most recent outing gave him a hat as a weapon. A HAT. Who does he think he is, Oddjob?
Mario doesn't need a hammer to properly represent his character or his series, but that's not the same thing as what's going on with Ganondorf.
Mario is so varied in his capabilities that using only hand-to-hand is acceptable to everybody, because Mario is famous for doing practically everything, but hand-to-hand is in fact one of his more well-known methods of dealing with baddies.
Ganondorf is known for using magic or weapons, and ALWAYS HAS BEEN. There's literally no reason for him NOT to have either.
Can I just say that the most useless argument is the world is 'whataboutism'. The solution to fans wanting Ganondorf's moveset changed to something representative of his games is not 'Well what about Mario/Ness/Lucas/Lucina/Wario not being representative of their games?'
Saying that there are also other problems does not solve a problem. So please, for the love of god, if this thread is to ever move forward beyond the same arguments going back and forth and back and forth and back and forth, can we just stop bringing up other characters here?
There is never perfect representation, and as some point people need to make concessions, so every character is going to be missing something. That doesn't help in figuring out what is or isn't good about Ganon's current moveset, that doesn't help sort out whether or not replacing him is a let down to current Smash fans, or a bonus to Zelda fans. All it does is say 'well why fix anything if you're not also going to fix everything'.
So please, stop saying that other characters aren't represented well either. If people want something argue the validity of the thing they want, don't argue the vailidity of them wanting it in the first place, because guess what, if they're arguing then they want it.
To be fair though, lots of characters have the potential to have cool attacks. Bowser may not be known fornit, but his sorcery/black magic is just as apparent and deadly as Ganon's.
I will say that Ganondorf absolutely does need a revamp though. He's just not what Zelda fans consider Ganondorf. Zelda characters may even be able to pull from HW this time around, which I'm kind of loomimg forward to if we get a HW Ganondorf design
All I know is that Ganondorf has always stuck out like a sore thumb, the only other character that has nearly as much disdain directed at them, as far as I am aware, not counting the problems with Mii Fighters, is Palutena. And honestly, I can see why, she makes me glad that Ganondorf is the way he is. It could be worse...
That being said, if such an apparently problem has never really been addressed at this point, for over fifteen years, I doubt it ever will. Hopefully this game is all about revamps and with BotW Link, it is a great start for the Legend of Zelda series, but at this point, Sakurai's bias knows no bounds.
I am interested to see what they do to the Dorf's style, though. He hasn't been in a main series game since Twilight Princess, and the TP style won't mesh well if Link and Zelda have BotW style.
His Hyrule Warriors look is his best ever, but would they go with a spin-off? Or would they make something up that somewhat matches?
I will note though that all of the Ganon forms in BotW did have a long mane like the one in HW, so if they did give us that one, it would fit with the rest of it.
is the best designed heavy character in the whole series. Completely original moveset, hits hard when needed, decently fast, strong projectile game, above average recovery, strong grab game, has an aerial meteor smash, at least one of his tilts can kill, insanely low crouch stance with a crawl, and he owns plenty of options to get out of trouble or apply pressure.
