A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[Ghirahilda]

........Okay, I'm sorry, but no.

Moving his moveset to Black Shadow is a request that straight up annoys me. First of all, it's not fair to Black Shadow.Two, many changes made to Ganondorf in Brawl onward were made with his character in mind (I'll elaborate a bit later), and not really Black Shadow. Smash characters are generally included because of popularity and crap. Black Shadow isn't popular right now, and is only wanted to dump Ganondorf's moveset too. That's not a good reason to add anybody. And finally, Captain Falcon himself is based on F-Zero as a whole (his speedy nature is based off the speed and quick reflexes gameplay of F-Zero) and also the gameplay of his vehicle, the Blue Falcon; in the F-Zero games, the Blue Falcon is a balanced vehicle stat-wise; his Smash moveset reflects that by having his slower moves be stronger for a balanced blend of speed and power. So if Black Shadow were to become a Smash Bros character, the natural design choice is to base it off his vehicle's gameplay in F-Zero; his racecar, the Black Bull, has high speed (the fastest in the game) and durability, at the cost of low boosting power. This would translate in Smash to a speedy defensive character with no emphasis on actual power. That doesn't really sound like Ganondorf, does it?

Honestly, I think Ganondorf is fine as it is. I mean, yeah, making him a clone of Falcon does seem weird (and I'll admit, I used to complain a lot about it too), but currently, his moveset reflects him on a conceptual level; a powerful, calculating sorcerer who has tremendous physical strength and darkness magic. In fact, from Brawl onward, Sakurai has included plenty of nods to Ganondorf's canon portrayal in Zelda, that have flown over tons of people's heads. I found an article that explains Ganondorf in Smash a hundred times better than I ever could, but here's a quick TLDR: Sakurai doesn't want to stray from Ganondorfs origins as a heavier Captain Falcon, but he's trying to make him as faithful as possible to the Zelda games within those limitations, and it's made me appreciate his moveset a lot more.

(I do understand why people would want to see an overhaul with swords, Dead Man's Volley, etc, but I will say one thing; that's what Sakurai should have used custom moves for. He only developed the full potential of customs for Palutena and the Miis, and everyone else got slightly altered, horribly unbalanced variations on their default specials. I'm hoping the full potential of customs is explored in Smash Switch, but seeing how the DLC for SSB4 lacks custom moves altogether, the team probably gave up on the concept. But Ganondorf still uses his sword in a custom special, so hey, that's pretty cool)

This is amazing
But yeah, Ganondorf needs some more tweaks here and there. (And please, Dead man's volley is soooooo coooooool)

I personally think that the best hope for Ganondorf to be "faithful to his canon self" in Smash is not to demand that Sakurai change his portrayal, but to demand that Aonuma/Fujibayashi change their portrayal of Ganondorf to match Smash.

The Zelda team is much more flexible in how they constantly adapt their characters to new situations, and I think that it would be far more appropriate if they give us a Ganondorf that uses magic-infused punches and kicks rather than Sakurai giving us a Ganondorf with a sword and magic.

OMG please NO!

 

[Quillion]

........Okay, I'm sorry, but no.

Moving his moveset to Black Shadow is a request that straight up annoys me. First of all, it's not fair to Black Shadow.Two, many changes made to Ganondorf in Brawl onward were made with his character in mind (I'll elaborate a bit later), and not really Black Shadow. Smash characters are generally included because of popularity and crap. Black Shadow isn't popular right now, and is only wanted to dump Ganondorf's moveset too. That's not a good reason to add anybody. And finally, Captain Falcon himself is based on F-Zero as a whole (his speedy nature is based off the speed and quick reflexes gameplay of F-Zero) and also the gameplay of his vehicle, the Blue Falcon; in the F-Zero games, the Blue Falcon is a balanced vehicle stat-wise; his Smash moveset reflects that by having his slower moves be stronger for a balanced blend of speed and power. So if Black Shadow were to become a Smash Bros character, the natural design choice is to base it off his vehicle's gameplay in F-Zero; his racecar, the Black Bull, has high speed (the fastest in the game) and durability, at the cost of low boosting power. This would translate in Smash to a speedy defensive character with no emphasis on actual power. That doesn't really sound like Ganondorf, does it?

Honestly, I think Ganondorf is fine as it is. I mean, yeah, making him a clone of Falcon does seem weird (and I'll admit, I used to complain a lot about it too), but currently, his moveset reflects him on a conceptual level; a powerful, calculating sorcerer who has tremendous physical strength and darkness magic. In fact, from Brawl onward, Sakurai has included plenty of nods to Ganondorf's canon portrayal in Zelda, that have flown over tons of people's heads. I found an article that explains Ganondorf in Smash a hundred times better than I ever could, but here's a quick TLDR: Sakurai doesn't want to stray from Ganondorfs origins as a heavier Captain Falcon, but he's trying to make him as faithful as possible to the Zelda games within those limitations, and it's made me appreciate his moveset a lot more.

(I do understand why people would want to see an overhaul with swords, Dead Man's Volley, etc, but I will say one thing; that's what Sakurai should have used custom moves for. He only developed the full potential of customs for Palutena and the Miis, and everyone else got slightly altered, horribly unbalanced variations on their default specials. I'm hoping the full potential of customs is explored in Smash Switch, but seeing how the DLC for SSB4 lacks custom moves altogether, the team probably gave up on the concept. But Ganondorf still uses his sword in a custom special, so hey, that's pretty cool)

You explained what I've been trying to say: Ganondorf's moveset does reflect his character. While I believe what @Frostwraith said about Captain Falcon and Black Shadow was a stretch, Ganondorf's moveset reflects his magical power and godlike strength just fine.

 

[NintendoKnight]

You explained what I've been trying to say: Ganondorf's moveset does reflect his character. While I believe what @Frostwraith said about Captain Falcon and Black Shadow was a stretch, Ganondorf's moveset reflects his magical power and godlike strength just fine.

The point of magic is not to make your punches hit harder. This isn't Fairy Tail. If you believe that's what Ganondorf should be using magic for, your understanding of magic usage and utility is poor at best.

And fine, Black Shadow may not entirely be the best recipient of Ganondorf's unfitting, pitiable moveset. This guy, however...

Meet Deathborn, the primary antagonist of F-Zero GX. A fitting recipient of Ganondorf's current moveset. He even looks the part better than Black Shadow. His machine in F-Zero also does not contradict the style like Black Shadow's machine does.

Edit: Decided to take a quick visit to the Black Shadow Newcomer support thread. 99% of the guys over there are in complete support of Black Shadow taking Ganon's old moveset to allow Ganon to get something new.

Guess who didn't support it?

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think that the best hope for Ganondorf to be "faithful to his canon self" in Smash is not to demand that Sakurai change his portrayal, but to demand that Aonuma/Fujibayashi change their portrayal of Ganondorf to match Smash.

The Zelda team is much more flexible in how they constantly adapt their characters to new situations, and I think that it would be far more appropriate if they give us a Ganondorf that uses magic-infused punches and kicks rather than Sakurai giving us a Ganondorf with a sword and magic.

Now we know you're just being a troll....well played though.

 

[Deleted member]

I personally think that the best hope for Ganondorf to be "faithful to his canon self" in Smash is not to demand that Sakurai change his portrayal, but to demand that Aonuma/Fujibayashi change their portrayal of Ganondorf to match Smash.

Most people here already have explained as to why this is a bad idea,so im not gonna be a broken record.

 

[Morbi]

The point of magic is not to make your punches hit harder. This isn't Fairy Tail. If you believe that's what Ganondorf should be using magic for, your understanding of magic usage and utility is poor at best.

And fine, Black Shadow may not entirely be the best recipient of Ganondorf's unfitting, pitiable moveset. This guy, however...

Meet Deathborn, the primary antagonist of F-Zero GX. A fitting recipient of Ganondorf's current moveset. He even looks the part better than Black Shadow. His machine in F-Zero also does not contradict the style like Black Shadow's machine does.

Edit: Decided to take a quick visit to the Black Shadow Newcomer support thread. 99% of the guys over there are in complete support of Black Shadow taking Ganon's old moveset to allow Ganon to get something new.

Guess who didn't support it?

The reason is pretty obvious, there is no way Black Shadow would get into Smash without taking the cloned heavyweight F-Zero style. Black Shadow is my number one character, and not just because he could take Ganondorf's move-set, I would unconditionally main him even if he had a different play-style. That beings said, whatever, I would take Deathborn.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I can probably think of a way to alter Ganondorf's moveset, while still keeping him as a slow, but powerful close combat type of fighter. First up, some of Ganondorf's attacks would have him utilizing a trident, sort of like the one in one of his Hyrule Warriors artworks.

Spoiler

In terms of moveset adjustments...

Normal Moves

• Neutral Attack: Ganondorf can perform a 3-hit combo, starting with his right hand, followed by his left hand, and then finishes up by stabbing his quarry with his trident. The punches deal 3% damage each, while the trident deals 6% damage.
• F-tilt: Ganondorf keeps the so-called Sparta kick that he used in Twilight Princess.
• U-tilt (Volcano Kick): The Volcano Kick remains the same, but Ganondorf would receive heavy armor to compensate for its long start-up lag.
• D-tilt: Ganondorf takes out his trident, and does a low sweep with it. Has a darkness effect that sends opponents flying in a mostly vertical angle.
• Dash Attack (Shoulder Bash): Ganondorf begins by stunning his opponent with his shoulder. Press the attack button again after landing the shoulder hit, and Ganondorf will follow-up with a strike with his trident. This move references the very same attack he used in Twilight Princess.
• F-smash: Operates in a similar manner as Warlock Punch, but is less powerful overall.
• U-smash: Slashes his trident upwards, sending fighters flying at a mostly vertical angle.
• D-smash (Earthquake Punch): Ganondorf strikes the ground with his fist, creating a powerful tremor that damages fighters within his attack range. Charging up the attack increases the range of the tremor. This attack references one of Ganondorf's attacks from Ocarina of Time.
• N-air: Ganondorf uses his trident to attack fighters in front, and behind him.
• F-air (Skull Crusher): This attack operates the same way as it did in the previous 3 Smash Bros. installments, but it gains a darkness effect, and receives a stronger BKB value.
• B-air: Ganondorf uses his trident to attack fighters who are behind him.
• U-air: Performs an upward punch that deals mostly vertical knockback.
• D-air: Operates the same way as it did in the previous 3 Smash Bros. installments, but it no longer has any sourspots, being a guaranteed meteor smash upon hitting anyone.
• Grab: Ganondorf's grab range would receive an improvement, where he'll fully extend his left arm to grab someone.
• Pummel: Ganondorf will use his knee to damage a grabbed opponent.
• F-throw: Ganondorf holds onto his target, and strikes him/her with his trident before releasing.
• B-throw: Same as f-throw, but in the opposite direction.
• U-throw: Ganondorf tosses his grabbed target upwards, and then stabs the target with his trident, sending him/her flying upwards.
• D-throw: Ganondorf puts his grabbed target down, and unleashes dark energy that hits repeatedly before the target gets released.

Special Moves

• Trident Slash: Ganondorf charges up his trident, and then swings it at his opponent. The more it's charged, the more damage it deals, with the trident's head dealing the most damage.
  • Trident Blast: Instead of charging his trident, Ganondorf will simply swing it. If the trident hits anyone, a dark explosion will be created, dealing high damage and knockback, but not quite as strong as a fully charged Trident Slash's sweetspot. The explosion is an indirect attack, and won't be affected by any damage multipliers that are used whenever Ganondorf's size gets changed.
  • Speedy Trident: The trident can be fully charged in less time, and has much less start-up lag, but it deals less damage overall.
• Flame Choke: Much like in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, Ganondorf grabs his opponents and blasts him/her with dark energy before releasing.
  • Flame Wave: Same as Flame Choke, but Ganondorf launches his target upon release, much like in Smash 3DS / Wii U.
  • Gerudo Dragon: Instead of grabbing a fighter, Ganondorf will perform a dark uppercut upon touching a fighter, much like he did in Super Smash Bros. Melee.
• Dark Uppercut: Ganondorf ascends into the air with his right fist engulfed in darkness. It can hit fighters repeatedly, with the final hit dealing the most knockback. Covers a good amount of distance, and the player can alter the movement angle along the way. However, it has more in common with Dark Fists in that Ganondorf doesn't grab anyone, so it can't be used in rapid succession.
  • Dark Leap: Ganondorf travels even farther vertically, improving his recovery, but sacrifices the ability to deal damage.
  • Mega Uppercut: A more powerful variation of Dark Uppercut, but sacrifices travel distance, hindering its recovery capabilities.
• Trident Counter: Ganondorf enters a defense position, waiting for his opponent to attack. He then retaliates with his trident, dealing 1.3x the damage that he blocked. The counter window lasts for 20 frames. The counterattack has a darkness effect, a damage range of 10% - 50%, 50 BKB, and 100 KBG.
  • Quick Counter: Has a longer counter window (30 frames), and the counterattack is faster, but the damage multiplier is only 1x. Has the same damage range and BKB as Trident Counter, but the KBG gets reduced to 80.
  • Mighty Counter: Has a shorter counter window (15 frames), but the counterattack's damage multiplier is increased to 1.5x, and is unblockable. Has the same damage range, BKB, and KBG as Trident Counter.

Final Smash: Ganon

Spoiler

Unlike in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, Ganon becomes an actual playable Final Smash fighter. He basically uses the same attacks as Ganondorf, but all leg-based attacks get changed into arm-based attacks.

Ganon would also have more in common with Giga Bowser and Giga Mac in that he can't use items, and is unaffected by size-changing items. This issue gets mitigated in that most of Ganon's attacks deal 2x more damage than Ganondorf's attacks, with some of them dealing even greater damage, usually due to performing a completely different attack animation. Ganon is as big as Giga Bowser, and is impervious to flinching, but he can still take damage.

On a side note, Ganon is incapable of using the custom variants of Ganondorf's special moves, being limited to only the default special moves.

The attack differences between Ganondorf and Ganon are as follows...

• F-tilt: Ganon thrusts his arm forwards.
• U-tilt: Ganon uses his fist to create a volcanic explosion.
• Dash Attack: Ganon charges forward, much like with how the Beast Ganon Final Smash operated, but deals mostly vertical knockback, and is not quite as damaging.
• D-air: Ganon creates a dark explosion beneath him with his hand, which is a meteor smash.
• Pummel: Ganon attacks his grabbed target with a headbutt that has a darkness effect.
• Trident Slash: Charges to full power in half the time as Ganondorf's Trident Slash.
• Flame Choke: When Ganon grabs a fighter, he slams him/her to the ground, much like with how the aerial Flame Choke operates.
• Trident Counter: The counterattack deals 2.6x the damage that Ganon blocked, and has a damage range of 20% - 100%. The BKB is still 50, but the KBG gets increased to 120. Also, the counterattack is unblockable, just like with Mighty Counter, but keeps the 20 frame counter window.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I can probably think of a way to alter Ganondorf's moveset, while still keeping him as a slow, but powerful close combat type of fighter. First up, some of Ganondorf's attacks would have him utilizing a trident, sort of like the one in one of his Hyrule Warriors artworks.

Spoiler

In terms of moveset adjustments...

Normal Moves

• Neutral Attack: Ganondorf can perform a 3-hit combo, starting with his right hand, followed by his left hand, and then finishes up by stabbing his quarry with his trident. The punches deal 3% damage each, while the trident deals 6% damage.
• F-tilt: Ganondorf keeps the so-called Sparta kick that he used in Twilight Princess.
• U-tilt (Volcano Kick): The Volcano Kick remains the same, but Ganondorf would receive heavy armor to compensate for its long start-up lag.
• D-tilt: Ganondorf takes out his trident, and does a low sweep with it. Has a darkness effect that sends opponents flying in a mostly vertical angle.
• Dash Attack (Shoulder Bash): Ganondorf begins by stunning his opponent with his shoulder. Press the attack button again after landing the shoulder hit, and Ganondorf will follow-up with a strike with his trident. This move references the very same attack he used in Twilight Princess.
• F-smash: Operates in a similar manner as Warlock Punch, but is less powerful overall.
• U-smash: Slashes his trident upwards, sending fighters flying at a mostly vertical angle.
• D-smash (Earthquake Punch): Ganondorf strikes the ground with his fist, creating a powerful tremor that damages fighters within his attack range. Charging up the attack increases the range of the tremor. This attack references one of Ganondorf's attacks from Ocarina of Time.
• N-air: Ganondorf uses his trident to attack fighters in front, and behind him.
• F-air (Skull Crusher): This attack operates the same way as it did in the previous 3 Smash Bros. installments, but it gains a darkness effect, and receives a stronger BKB value.
• B-air: Ganondorf uses his trident to attack fighters who are behind him.
• U-air: Performs an upward punch that deals mostly vertical knockback.
• D-air: Operates the same way as it did in the previous 3 Smash Bros. installments, but it no longer has any sourspots, being a guaranteed meteor smash upon hitting anyone.
• Grab: Ganondorf's grab range would receive an improvement, where he'll fully extend his left arm to grab someone.
• Pummel: Ganondorf will use his knee to damage a grabbed opponent.
• F-throw: Ganondorf holds onto his target, and strikes him/her with his trident before releasing.
• B-throw: Same as f-throw, but in the opposite direction.
• U-throw: Ganondorf tosses his grabbed target upwards, and then stabs the target with his trident, sending him/her flying upwards.
• D-throw: Ganondorf puts his grabbed target down, and unleashes dark energy that hits repeatedly before the target gets released.

Special Moves

• Trident Slash: Ganondorf charges up his trident, and then swings it at his opponent. The more it's charged, the more damage it deals, with the trident's head dealing the most damage.
  • Trident Blast: Instead of charging his trident, Ganondorf will simply swing it. If the trident hits anyone, a dark explosion will be created, dealing high damage and knockback, but not quite as strong as a fully charged Trident Slash's sweetspot. The explosion is an indirect attack, and won't be affected by any damage multipliers that are used whenever Ganondorf's size gets changed.
  • Speedy Trident: The trident can be fully charged in less time, and has much less start-up lag, but it deals less damage overall.
• Flame Choke: Much like in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, Ganondorf grabs his opponents and blasts him/her with dark energy before releasing.
  • Flame Wave: Same as Flame Choke, but Ganondorf launches his target upon release, much like in Smash 3DS / Wii U.
  • Gerudo Dragon: Instead of grabbing a fighter, Ganondorf will perform a dark uppercut upon touching a fighter, much like he did in Super Smash Bros. Melee.
• Dark Uppercut: Ganondorf ascends into the air with his right fist engulfed in darkness. It can hit fighters repeatedly, with the final hit dealing the most knockback. Covers a good amount of distance, and the player can alter the movement angle along the way. However, it has more in common with Dark Fists in that Ganondorf doesn't grab anyone, so it can't be used in rapid succession.
  • Dark Leap: Ganondorf travels even farther vertically, improving his recovery, but sacrifices the ability to deal damage.
  • Mega Uppercut: A more powerful variation of Dark Uppercut, but sacrifices travel distance, hindering its recovery capabilities.
• Trident Counter: Ganondorf enters a defense position, waiting for his opponent to attack. He then retaliates with his trident, dealing 1.3x the damage that he blocked. The counter window lasts for 20 frames. The counterattack has a darkness effect, a damage range of 10% - 50%, 50 BKB, and 100 KBG.
  • Quick Counter: Has a longer counter window (30 frames), and the counterattack is faster, but the damage multiplier is only 1x. Has the same damage range and BKB as Trident Counter, but the KBG gets reduced to 80.
  • Mighty Counter: Has a shorter counter window (15 frames), but the counterattack's damage multiplier is increased to 1.5x, and is unblockable. Has the same damage range, BKB, and KBG as Trident Counter.

Final Smash: Ganon

Spoiler

Unlike in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, Ganon becomes an actual playable Final Smash fighter. He basically uses the same attacks as Ganondorf, but all leg-based attacks get changed into arm-based attacks.

Ganon would also have more in common with Giga Bowser and Giga Mac in that he can't use items, and is unaffected by size-changing items. This issue gets mitigated in that most of Ganon's attacks deal 2x more damage than Ganondorf's attacks, with some of them dealing even greater damage, usually due to performing a completely different attack animation. Ganon is as big as Giga Bowser, and is impervious to flinching, but he can still take damage.

On a side note, Ganon is incapable of using the custom variants of Ganondorf's special moves, being limited to only the default special moves.

The attack differences between Ganondorf and Ganon are as follows...

• F-tilt: Ganon thrusts his arm forwards.
• U-tilt: Ganon uses his fist to create a volcanic explosion.
• Dash Attack: Ganon charges forward, much like with how the Beast Ganon Final Smash operated, but deals mostly vertical knockback, and is not quite as damaging.
• D-air: Ganon creates a dark explosion beneath him with his hand, which is a meteor smash.
• Pummel: Ganon attacks his grabbed target with a headbutt that has a darkness effect.
• Trident Slash: Charges to full power in half the time as Ganondorf's Trident Slash.
• Flame Choke: When Ganon grabs a fighter, he slams him/her to the ground, much like with how the aerial Flame Choke operates.
• Trident Counter: The counterattack deals 2.6x the damage that Ganon blocked, and has a damage range of 20% - 100%. The BKB is still 50, but the KBG gets increased to 120. Also, the counterattack is unblockable, just like with Mighty Counter, but keeps the 20 frame counter window.

There's something about you going out of your way to list the BKB and KBG stats that pleases me.

 

[Deleted member]

The moveset is pretty neat, but can we please give it a Down Special that's not a ****ing counter?

 

[DNeon]

I can probably think of a way to alter Ganondorf's moveset, while still keeping him as a slow, but powerful close combat type of fighter. First up, some of Ganondorf's attacks would have him utilizing a trident, sort of like the one in one of his Hyrule Warriors artworks.

Spoiler

In terms of moveset adjustments...

Normal Moves

• Neutral Attack: Ganondorf can perform a 3-hit combo, starting with his right hand, followed by his left hand, and then finishes up by stabbing his quarry with his trident. The punches deal 3% damage each, while the trident deals 6% damage.
• F-tilt: Ganondorf keeps the so-called Sparta kick that he used in Twilight Princess.
• U-tilt (Volcano Kick): The Volcano Kick remains the same, but Ganondorf would receive heavy armor to compensate for its long start-up lag.
• D-tilt: Ganondorf takes out his trident, and does a low sweep with it. Has a darkness effect that sends opponents flying in a mostly vertical angle.
• Dash Attack (Shoulder Bash): Ganondorf begins by stunning his opponent with his shoulder. Press the attack button again after landing the shoulder hit, and Ganondorf will follow-up with a strike with his trident. This move references the very same attack he used in Twilight Princess.
• F-smash: Operates in a similar manner as Warlock Punch, but is less powerful overall.
• U-smash: Slashes his trident upwards, sending fighters flying at a mostly vertical angle.
• D-smash (Earthquake Punch): Ganondorf strikes the ground with his fist, creating a powerful tremor that damages fighters within his attack range. Charging up the attack increases the range of the tremor. This attack references one of Ganondorf's attacks from Ocarina of Time.
• N-air: Ganondorf uses his trident to attack fighters in front, and behind him.
• F-air (Skull Crusher): This attack operates the same way as it did in the previous 3 Smash Bros. installments, but it gains a darkness effect, and receives a stronger BKB value.
• B-air: Ganondorf uses his trident to attack fighters who are behind him.
• U-air: Performs an upward punch that deals mostly vertical knockback.
• D-air: Operates the same way as it did in the previous 3 Smash Bros. installments, but it no longer has any sourspots, being a guaranteed meteor smash upon hitting anyone.
• Grab: Ganondorf's grab range would receive an improvement, where he'll fully extend his left arm to grab someone.
• Pummel: Ganondorf will use his knee to damage a grabbed opponent.
• F-throw: Ganondorf holds onto his target, and strikes him/her with his trident before releasing.
• B-throw: Same as f-throw, but in the opposite direction.
• U-throw: Ganondorf tosses his grabbed target upwards, and then stabs the target with his trident, sending him/her flying upwards.
• D-throw: Ganondorf puts his grabbed target down, and unleashes dark energy that hits repeatedly before the target gets released.

Special Moves

• Trident Slash: Ganondorf charges up his trident, and then swings it at his opponent. The more it's charged, the more damage it deals, with the trident's head dealing the most damage.
  • Trident Blast: Instead of charging his trident, Ganondorf will simply swing it. If the trident hits anyone, a dark explosion will be created, dealing high damage and knockback, but not quite as strong as a fully charged Trident Slash's sweetspot. The explosion is an indirect attack, and won't be affected by any damage multipliers that are used whenever Ganondorf's size gets changed.
  • Speedy Trident: The trident can be fully charged in less time, and has much less start-up lag, but it deals less damage overall.
• Flame Choke: Much like in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, Ganondorf grabs his opponents and blasts him/her with dark energy before releasing.
  • Flame Wave: Same as Flame Choke, but Ganondorf launches his target upon release, much like in Smash 3DS / Wii U.
  • Gerudo Dragon: Instead of grabbing a fighter, Ganondorf will perform a dark uppercut upon touching a fighter, much like he did in Super Smash Bros. Melee.
• Dark Uppercut: Ganondorf ascends into the air with his right fist engulfed in darkness. It can hit fighters repeatedly, with the final hit dealing the most knockback. Covers a good amount of distance, and the player can alter the movement angle along the way. However, it has more in common with Dark Fists in that Ganondorf doesn't grab anyone, so it can't be used in rapid succession.
  • Dark Leap: Ganondorf travels even farther vertically, improving his recovery, but sacrifices the ability to deal damage.
  • Mega Uppercut: A more powerful variation of Dark Uppercut, but sacrifices travel distance, hindering its recovery capabilities.
• Trident Counter: Ganondorf enters a defense position, waiting for his opponent to attack. He then retaliates with his trident, dealing 1.3x the damage that he blocked. The counter window lasts for 20 frames. The counterattack has a darkness effect, a damage range of 10% - 50%, 50 BKB, and 100 KBG.
  • Quick Counter: Has a longer counter window (30 frames), and the counterattack is faster, but the damage multiplier is only 1x. Has the same damage range and BKB as Trident Counter, but the KBG gets reduced to 80.
  • Mighty Counter: Has a shorter counter window (15 frames), but the counterattack's damage multiplier is increased to 1.5x, and is unblockable. Has the same damage range, BKB, and KBG as Trident Counter.

Final Smash: Ganon

Spoiler

Unlike in Brawl and Smash 3DS / Wii U, Ganon becomes an actual playable Final Smash fighter. He basically uses the same attacks as Ganondorf, but all leg-based attacks get changed into arm-based attacks.

Ganon would also have more in common with Giga Bowser and Giga Mac in that he can't use items, and is unaffected by size-changing items. This issue gets mitigated in that most of Ganon's attacks deal 2x more damage than Ganondorf's attacks, with some of them dealing even greater damage, usually due to performing a completely different attack animation. Ganon is as big as Giga Bowser, and is impervious to flinching, but he can still take damage.

On a side note, Ganon is incapable of using the custom variants of Ganondorf's special moves, being limited to only the default special moves.

The attack differences between Ganondorf and Ganon are as follows...

• F-tilt: Ganon thrusts his arm forwards.
• U-tilt: Ganon uses his fist to create a volcanic explosion.
• Dash Attack: Ganon charges forward, much like with how the Beast Ganon Final Smash operated, but deals mostly vertical knockback, and is not quite as damaging.
• D-air: Ganon creates a dark explosion beneath him with his hand, which is a meteor smash.
• Pummel: Ganon attacks his grabbed target with a headbutt that has a darkness effect.
• Trident Slash: Charges to full power in half the time as Ganondorf's Trident Slash.
• Flame Choke: When Ganon grabs a fighter, he slams him/her to the ground, much like with how the aerial Flame Choke operates.
• Trident Counter: The counterattack deals 2.6x the damage that Ganon blocked, and has a damage range of 20% - 100%. The BKB is still 50, but the KBG gets increased to 120. Also, the counterattack is unblockable, just like with Mighty Counter, but keeps the 20 frame counter window.

I like it but as has been said, no counter. Ganondorf isn't exactly a boss that does counter attacks, in fact usually the opposite. Also volcano kick is one of the moves that looks most out of place on current Ganondorf, yet you've kept it, despite the fact that it seems like the perfect spot to incorporate a typical 'shock wave' attack where he thrusts his weapon into the ground. It could function exactly the same but rather than kick he either charges magic or holds his weapon point facing down to stab into the ground.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I like it but as has been said, no counter. Ganondorf isn't exactly a boss that does counter attacks, in fact usually the opposite.

While it's true that Ganondorf hasn't been known for doing counters, he does start to catch onto Link's battle strategies with each battle. Examples include the Wind Waker, where each time Link successfully Parry Attacks Ganondorf, he gradually starts to block every single Parry that Link performs. And in Twilight Princess, after taking a certain amount of damage, Dark Beast Ganon begins to dodge every single arrow that Link fires.

Basically, to go alongside his ability to adapt and alter his battle strategies, Ganondorf would finally learn how to counter any direct attacks that he blocks. In a way, it would somewhat reference the first two Ghirahim battles in Skyward Sword, where if Link is too careless with his sword attacks, Ghirahim will counter them by stealing Link's sword, and throwing it right back at him.

 

[Neanderthal]

Must have his own moveset.
The character is a magician who often uses a weapon. Never has he been a hand to hand combat fighter.

 

[DNeon]

While it's true that Ganondorf hasn't been known for doing counters, he does start to catch onto Link's battle strategies with each battle.

I think there's a difference between stopping players from cheesing boss battles and 'countering', especially since he doesn't actually hit back in any examples, he just forces the player to damage him in a different way.

Ganondorf would finally learn how to counter any direct attacks that he blocks.

I don't think Smash is the place for characters to learn things.

it would somewhat reference the first two Ghirahim battles in Skyward Sword

But that's not Ganondorf

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

DNeon : To be honest, I only thought up Trident Counter, because I didn't want Ganondorf to continue copying Captain Falcon's Falcon Kick. I basically ran out of possible ideas for a new down special, since it made little sense to have the Earthquake Punch be his down smash AND down special. But I guess the down smash could always be changed to something different, while the down special becomes the Earthquake Punch.

The adjustments could work as follows...

• D-smash: Ganondorf swings his trident around himself to send fighters flying at fairly low angles.
• Down Special - Earthquake Punch: Hold the special move button to charge the attack. Ganondorf will then slam the ground with his fist, creating a tremor that damages opponents within his range. The tremor's range increases while charging the attack, but it won't affect airborne fighters. If performed in the air, Ganondorf will dive down to the ground.
  • Volcano Punch: Ganondorf creates an eruption around himself upon slamming the ground, which damages even airborne fighters. The tremor's range does not increase while charging, however.
  • Stunning Punch: Ganondorf slams the ground to create an electric blast that briefly paralyzes anyone within his range. Less powerful than the other Earthquake Punch variants, however, but its range increases while charging.

In regards to Ganon, he'd only be able to use the default Earthquake Punch, but he can fully charge the attack in less time than Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

Also volcano kick is one of the moves that looks most out of place on current Ganondorf, yet you've kept it, despite the fact that it seems like the perfect spot to incorporate a typical 'shock wave' attack where he thrusts his weapon into the ground. It could function exactly the same but rather than kick he either charges magic or holds his weapon point facing down to stab into the ground.

I get that Sakurai may be unwilling to completely revamp a veteran character; he's never done so, but he has shown to be willing to replace a standard attack here, a special attack there.

So in trying to be as realistic as possible, here are some changes I would like to see without revamping the character:
-- I love the Volcano Kick move, but hate that it depicts Ganondorf as being waaay more flexible than it seems he should be. Slamming his sword down as DNeon said would perfect!
-- His Wizard's Foot should be replaced with essentially Mii Swordfighter's Power Thrust, which is the same move but using a sword.
-- Warlock Punch can simply be replaced with Warlock Blade, which was already a custom special
-- His forward smash could then have a punching animation, or something other than the elbow that C. Falcon also uses.
-- His up smash also needs to replaced for flexibility reasons. It could function the same if he instead punched up in the air (like the last part of Gerudo Dragon!), or replaced with a sword move like Marth or Ike.
-- I would love if his dashing attack were replaced with essentially his custom special Flame Chain instead of a shoulder bash
-- I would say keep his forward and back aerials, just add an electrical element to them so they're more of lightning punches
-- change his dodge to a shadowy disappearing move

Boom! Essentially same Ganondorf functionally, but updated to be more accurate and he's still arrogant enough to not always be using his sword--just sometimes.

 

[Quillion]

I'd say that at most, the best way to please the Canondorf complainers and those who already like his moveset would be to just to change his Smash attacks and b-air all to use his sword. All of which are very frequently used moves in regular play in contrast to just giving him a Warlock Blade custom, and most of his moveset remains the same.

 

[DNeon]

And wizard kick, and some of the backflipy or super flexible stuff.

I don't deny that he could functionally play the same but at least change the animations to something more suitable

But Wizard Kick is the biggest offender.

 

[Dr. Jojo Phantasma]

I got used to Falcondorf, I know there is just no way Sakurai is going to revamp any character heavily, but maybe custom moves will be improved on. I really hope Ganondorf doesn't have the TP design again while Link and Zelda get new looks. Either give him his epic HW look, or maybe make a Calamity Ganondorf.

 

[Deleted member]

I got used to Falcondorf, I know there is just no way Sakurai is going to revamp any character heavily, but maybe custom moves will be improved on. I really hope Ganondorf doesn't have the TP design again while Link and Zelda get new looks. Either give him his epic HW look, or maybe make a Calamity Ganondorf.

The Triforce Trio have kept to the same game design since Melee, but you bring up a good point. Since there was no Ganondorf in BotW, they would have to come up with a new design for him, I guess?

Although, wouldn't that just be the greatest slap in the face. Link and Zelda get updated BotW designs, perhaps with updated movesets, and meanwhile Ganondorf remains exactly the same and is still based on TP. Honestly, I wouldn't put it past Sakurai at this point.

 

[DNeon]

The Triforce Trio have kept to the same game design since Melee,

Not really, it's just that the OoT designs were fairly similar to the TP designs. They then missed Skyward Sword for the transition to 4 (and the other Toon variations obviously)

 

[NintendoKnight]

Smash has taken liberties and updated character designs before to be more in line with the times.

And let me say these boys look GOOD. I do appreciate visual updates made to characters that have aged in Smash.

Also, they've technically used an unused/scrapped design for Sheik these last two games. I'm sure they can create a BotW styled Ganondorf no problem, if not ask the Zelda team to come up with one for them.

There have been a few art pieces throughout this thread of a Calamity Ganondorf or other such inspired designs for our beloved King of Evil.

 

[Deleted member]

Not really, it's just that the OoT designs were fairly similar to the TP designs. They then missed Skyward Sword for the transition to 4 (and the other Toon variations obviously)

I worded that badly. What I meant to say is that the Triforce Trio have kept their designs to a certain game as a group; In Melee being OoT, and Brawl and Sm4sh being TP. I'm well aware of all the differences in their appearance and from which games they stem. I could also tell you which design elements are not pulled from their games, such as Link's silver chain mail or Ganondorf's shredded cape, but I digress.

 

[King9999]

I just thought of Smash 5 Ganon being voiced by Norio Wakamoto, and now I want that to happen.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I just thought of Smash 5 Ganon being voiced by Norio Wakamoto, and now I want that to happen.

I can understand that, however I'm still very much partial to Takashi Nagasako. Having him reprise his role as the original voice of Ganondorf (and hopefully provide the voice for DK for the first time in Smash) would be fantastic in my opinion.

His track record for the character is also impeccable in my eyes.

-Ocarina of Time
-Gamecube Tech Demo (As Ganondorf)
-The Wind Waker
-Super Smash Bros. Melee
-Four Swords Adventures (As Ganon)
-Skyward Sword (As Demise).

This legend needs to be brought back, especially if Ganondorf gets a re-design for the game.

 

[MrReyes96]

A breath of the wild inspired Ganondorf with revamped moveset is ideal but I wouldn’t mind

With a trident based magic moveset as a new character

 

[Quillion]

A breath of the wild inspired Ganondorf with revamped moveset is ideal but I wouldn’t mind

With a trident based magic moveset as a new character

Definitely would like that as well; it would be a much more appealing solution than the Toon Ganondorf some people want.

The real question is: would this finally silence the Dorf complainers? I would hope so.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

I wouldn't be shocked if they pulled a brawl sheik and had the BOTW team design a new ganondorf, with a new design would hopefully come a new moveset, something like this would be dope.

Honestly the concept art for him and sheik probably exists and they just haven't revealed it, I would be shocked if they hadn't at least considered having Dorf in BOTW

 

[NintendoKnight]

A breath of the wild inspired Ganondorf with revamped moveset is ideal but I wouldn’t mind

With a trident based magic moveset as a new character

As much as I'd like Ganon, I feel he falls to the same argument as Ridley: he's just too big.

Official size chart from concept art for A Link to the Past depicting the character's heights:

Everyone forgets that Ganon is FREAKING HUGE. Not even mentioning his size in Breath of the Wild...

Definitely would like that as well; it would be a much more appealing solution than the Toon Ganondorf some people want.

The real question is: would this finally silence the Dorf complainers? I would hope so.

Considering that Toon Ganondorf is technically my favorite version of him, I'd be extra happy if we got this:

However, if we got Ganon added in, yet Ganondorf remained in the game and was still a clone, I would still not be satisfied. You will never hear silence on this topic until Ganondorf the human gets a proper moveset. So you're better off getting used to the noise.

I wouldn't be shocked if they pulled a brawl sheik and had the BOTW team design a new ganondorf, with a new design would hopefully come a new moveset, something like this would be dope.

Honestly the concept art for him and sheik probably exists and they just haven't revealed it, I would be shocked if they hadn't at least considered having Dorf in BOTW

Though not nearly as complex (nor related to BotW), Nintendo technically does have an unused concept of Ganondorf from the Oracle games:

It's a bit simple, but sometimes simplicity is king... of evil. Ganondorf was slated to appear in the Oracle duo (well, trio in the original planning phases), but was ultimately removed in favor of exclusively using Ganon.

 

[DNeon]

The real question is: would this finally silence the Dorf complainers

No, and why you gotta load it like that man. Stop pretending that the viewpoint isn't valid.

As much as I'd like Ganon, I feel he falls to the same argument as Ridley: he's just too big.

There's already plenty of size scaling in Smash, the issue with Ridley is that he's got weird proportions, scaling him down still leaves a tail as long as he is and the giant wings, while he himself becomes minuscule and scrawny. That picture doesn't make Ganon look much larger than Bowser.

You will never hear silence on this topic until Ganondorf the human gets a proper moveset.

Precisely, they're practically two separate characters/moveset possibilities

 

[Quillion]

Precisely, they're practically two separate characters/moveset possibilities

I don't really understand why people, including many in the Zelda fandom itself, treat Ganon and Ganondorf as separate entities.

I'd look at them more like Mario and Dr. Mario, except Ganon of course could have his own ability set.

 

[DNeon]

except Ganon of course could have his own ability set.

Well...that's why. I mean sure if the bring transformations back then they could share a slot.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ganon could always go the Final Smash route if he utilizes the same kind of attacks as Ganondorf. Of course, it mostly comes down to which Ganon incarnation is used.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganon could always go the Final Smash route if he utilizes the same kind of attacks as Ganondorf. Of course, it mostly comes down to which Ganon incarnation is used.

Yeah and in fact, um, that's already the case.
I agree though that I think Ganon makes more sense as a Final Smash; in fact, that's kinda how it works in the actual Zelda games.

And also, yes, Ganon is too big.

 

[Blackwolf666]

Somebody ask for updated Ganondorf designs?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Somebody ask for updated Ganondorf designs?

okay but like...

this one could get it...

 

[Quillion]

Hey, does anyone here have any of the Zelda "encyclopedias" with concept art and all that jazz with BotW content?

Maybe one of them contains concept art for BotW Ganondorf.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

Hey, does anyone here have any of the Zelda "encyclopedias" with concept art and all that jazz with BotW content?

Maybe one of them contains concept art for BotW Ganondorf.

Pretty sure these are the only pieces of concept art released

https://zelda.gamepedia.com/Gallery:Breath_of_the_Wild#Concept_Art

No Ganny or Sheik but there's undoubtably more that haven't been shown.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Hey, does anyone here have any of the Zelda "encyclopedias" with concept art and all that jazz with BotW content?

Maybe one of them contains concept art for BotW Ganondorf.

This guy did a video of the most recent artbook. He's literally just flipping through each page one by one and shows all of it, too.

The pages dedicated to Ganon start at 1:07.

However, from this video, it seems clear that the Zelda team had zero plans for Ganondorf in this game. This would mean he had no unused artwork to pull from, because he was never considered for the game.

Should his design in Smash change, I can see one of two things happening:

1. The Smash team redesigns him themselves to look more in line with Link and Zelda (as I posted before, they aren't beyond doing this).

2. The Smash team asks the Zelda team to come up with a design to use.

Of course, we can't tell either way.

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

This guy did a video of the most recent artbook. He's literally just flipping through each page one by one and shows all of it, too.

The pages dedicated to Ganon start at 1:07.

However, from this video, it seems clear that the Zelda team had zero plans for Ganondorf in this game. This would mean he had no unused artwork to pull from, because he was never considered for the game.

Should his design in Smash change, I can see one of two things happening:

1. The Smash team redesigns him themselves to look more in line with Link and Zelda (as I posted before, they aren't beyond doing this).

2. The Smash team asks the Zelda team to come up with a design to use.

Of course, we can't tell either way.

Wait Breath of the Wild had an art book?? Since when?? Why did I not know this smh...

 

[NintendoKnight]

Wait Breath of the Wild had an art book?? Since when?? Why did I not know this smh...

It's called Breath of the Wild Master Works, and so far it's a Japanese only read.

Spoiler: Cover