A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[MoonlitIllusion]

It's called Breath of the Wild Master Works, and so far it's a Japanese only read.

Spoiler: Cover

Huh, interesting, Although I wonder if that's all the concept art there is, calamity ganon and beast ganon only have a couple images each there while Link and Zelda had pages and pages, like surely there were more designs they went through for ganon, idk though

 

[Quillion]

However, from this video, it seems clear that the Zelda team had zero plans for Ganondorf in this game. This would mean he had no unused artwork to pull from, because he was never considered for the game.

Should his design in Smash change, I can see one of two things happening:

1. The Smash team redesigns him themselves to look more in line with Link and Zelda (as I posted before, they aren't beyond doing this).

2. The Smash team asks the Zelda team to come up with a design to use.

Of course, we can't tell either way.

There's always Hyrule Warriors as an obscure third option. They might go with that since HW Ganondorf is already very well-received, and HW Ganondorf looks quite a bit like Calamity's cyborg body already, but given that Smash doesn't focus on spinoff content outside of Mario, I don't see it happening.

But no plans for BotW Ganondorf, huh? I find that strange since cyborg Calamity is pretty clearly a malformed Ganondorf, so I thought that they had at least some plans to put Ganondorf in the game. Again, missed opportunity.

 

[Diddy Kong]

This week we're discussing Ganondorf in the Revamp A Veteran Thread. Please consider adding a contribution to our thread.

https://smashboards.com/threads/the...cussing-ganondorf.454074/page-2#post-22031011

 

[Just a random scrub]

Well, time for my regular copy and paste.

As someone neutral to his current moveset, my changes were designed mostly to buff him up and make him more viable, by making his fearful punishes a bit more rewarding and by addressing some of his other flaws, so he is overall less likely to get bogged down in seconds, yet still plays the same overall. Some of my changes were inspired by his Melee/PM playstyle (a very fun and well-designed heavy IMO), but many are unique.

Aside from that, I also altered/changed the animations of some of his less visually stunning/more useless moves to better resemble stuff from the Zelda games and distinguish him a little further from Falcon.

Spoiler: My personal changes to Ganondorf's moveset

General

• Ganondorf is more expressive. Instead of frowning like a reluctant dad at his daughter’s soccer practice, he now cruelly grins during multiple attacks, because he’s above you and can crush you like an ant, and he knows it. His idle pose is now him lightly floating off the ground, folding his arms and smirking. Basically, instead of looking derpy, he looks cruel, nasty, and calculating.

• His dashing animation has been changed back to his “I’m going to **** you up” dash from Melee. His Brawl/SSB4 dash looks more like somebody who woke up in the middle of the night with the bubble guts trying to make it to the bathroom before blowing out the back of his pants. I thought this guy was supposed to be, you know, intimidating? Also, he has his Melee run speed too (1.21 → 1.35). This keeps him as one of the slowest characters in the game, but at least he actually has a fair chance at keeping up.
  
  
• G-Dorf’s shield is larger, making him not quite as easy to shield stab.
  
  
• Ganondorf has a jumpsquat that’s 1 frame faster (7 → 6), as in Melee.
  
  
• The piss-poor hitboxes of many of his attacks have been fixed to be more accurate, and also some of his hurtboxes during some attacks were adjusted so that he cannot be hit from distances where he is visually out of range during some moves.
  
  
• Finally, his entrance animation has changed. Him entering via dark portal is cool and all, but I just liked this idea; he now rides onto the battlefield on his horse, like in this GIF.

• Ganondorf does not clap when he loses; instead, he faces away, folding his arms and looking very resentful.

Ground Attacks

• Neutral attack has an altered animation, now looking more like a punch and looking more forceful overall. It also uses the same SFX as his side taunt, and the sourspots are removed.
  
  
• Forward smash’s angle has been changed back to it’s Melee one (40 → 80), done to at least somewhat differentiate it from Falcon’s.
  
  
• Up tilt now has a bit of super armor.

Air Attacks

• The programming error that resulted in Ganondorf not being able to autocancel his forward aerial in Brawl and SSB4 has finally been fixed. It also deals darkness damage like in Project M.
  
  
• Back air is the same basic move, but now, he’s holding out his trident, and he hangs it out, uch like Shulk’s back air. It has much more range because of the fact he’s holding it out behind him at it’s maximum range (rivaling Shulk’s back air), and also lasts much longer; however, the entire extra duration is a very weak sourspot that only lightly launches the opponent. Also, to compensate for the better range, the move deals less damage (16% → 14%)
  
  
• Ganondorf’s down air can auto-cancel in a short hop. As trash as he was in Brawl, this was by far my favorite aspect about him.

Grab/throws

• Now, instead of awkwardly flinging his hand in front of him, he now telekinetically grabs the opponent with his hand, choking them. This is a homage to Darth Vader, but I guess it also kinda looks like the new animation of his Dark Dive in SSB4 (in that he's holding the opponent telekinetically, rather than up close)Opponents also have a unique animation for being grabbed by G-Dorf; they hover off the ground, holding their throats with their hands in a feeble attempt to break free. His new pummel is squeezing harder, further choking the life out of the opponent. Mostly, all this is aesthetic, but dash grab starts two frames faster (Frame 11 → 9).
  
  
• Ganondorf’s back throw received the same base knockback boost that Captain Falcon’s back throw received in the transition from Brawl to SSB4 (30 → 60), because with his lackluster grab game, and the fact that he’s the holder of the Triforce of Power, god damn it, he needed to have a throw that actually, you know, killed people.
  
  
• Up throw has been changed. Now, instead of being a weak, useless punch, he now hoists the opponent upwards and then uses his trident to stab them in the gut, launching them upwards. This throw is mostly the same, but it’s knockback scaling is higher (105 → 125), allowing it to KO at extremely high percentages. It can also damage opponents near him when he stabs.
  
  
• Down throw’s angle has been reverted to it’s Melee angle (65 → 100), which means it now launches the opponent slightly behind him again. This is just because I like how it functioned in Melee, plus it helps distinguish it from Falcon’s down throw.

Special moves

• Warlock Blade (Ganondorf’s first Neutral B custom, the one where he actually uses his sword) is now his default neutral special.
  
  
• Flame Choke stays put, of course, however, it starts one frame earlier (Frame 16 → 15) and travels faster and farther, and has less ending lag (FAF 62 → 60), allowing him to more consistently punish the fools who dare to tech it. Also, purely for the memes, his aerial Flame Choke covers more range, making it a bit easier for the Ganoncide, my ultimate disrespect tool, to be utilized. (Plus, it’s good for recovery) Yes, this is main bias, lol
  
  
• Dark Dive has less damage on the initial shocks (1.2% → 1%), and it deals slightly less knockback scaling (90 → 82); however, it’s release deals much more damage (9% → 15%). This makes the grab function exactly the same as it does in Melee, thus allowing it to KO at around 150%.

• Beast Ganon..... I might change it into a Transformation, but if it stays a direct attack, then make it deal 7% more damage (40% → 47%), giving it the ability to OHKO again like in Brawl.

In terms of his design... well, Link is getting his Breath of the Wild design, as we should all know by now. Zelda most certainly will too. But Ganondorf...... does not appear in Breath of the Wild, and unlike Sheik in Brawl, he doesn't have any unused art to draw from. However, I do feel like his design will be upgraded nonetheless, and Sakurai could just ask the BotW team to make a Breath of the Wild styled Ganondorf design for Smash. There's also some pretty cool fan designs for Ganondorf in the style of Breath of the Wild, too, so they could also draw from them.

(But I still want a Hyrule Warriors skin, Sakurai.)

And one other thing: as I preached in my first post in this thread, custom moves would have been a perfect way to appeal to both sides at the same time. So as not to waste too much time, I'll quote one of my posts in the revamp a veteran thread:

Damn, I forgot one crucial thing I was going to discuss for Ganondorf in regards to his portrayal in the next game. It was going to be something that could help further calm down the arguments about Ganon's Smash portrayal:

Custom Moves, *****. And I mean UNIQUE customs, not just horribly unbalanced variations of a character's default specials. If it were only the Miis with Unique customs, then that might have made a little more sense (because their whole thing is being a player avatar). But seeing Palutena, an otherwise completely normal fighter, with unique, stand-out customs while everyone else gets said unbalanced customs that were probably all finished at the very last second baffled me. Ganondorf in particular has so much potential for unique custom moves that it's ridiculous. And in fact, I've come up with quite a few. Here's Ganondorf's current custom moves in my ideal moveset:

Neutral Special Customs

• Neutral Special Custom 1-Warlock Punch: Remember, I made the Warlock Blade his default Neutral Special, but no way in hell was I removing the Warlock Punch. So, it's now his first neutral special custom. As for the second; well, let's just say, I think a lot of people will approve this one...
• Neutral Special Custom 2-Dead Man's Volley: His signature move in all it's glory. However, it has seen a fair bit of tweaking. If it functioned exactly like it did in OoT, then, well, it wouldn't be fun. It would basically turn Smash into a 2.5D Pong game, and it would be potentially game-breaking in 8 Player Smash (like Melee's Blackhole glitch). Plus, how would it traverse stages? Wold it be fair if he used it right next to the opponent? If there were multiple opponents, who would it home in on? So, for that reason, I removed the homing function. Ganondorf suffers quite a bit of start-up lag, and then he throws the ball in a slightly downwards path. It moves at a slow-ish speed, but is strong, large, and can KO at high percents. It does not deal a lot of shield damage, oddly, which makes shielding it rather effective. It is also a bit like Dedede's Gordo Attack, with strong enough attacks, you can knock it back at Ganondorf. So, you cannot spam it, really. So the use of Dead Man's Volley isn't really to kill; it's a threat. Now, with the ball looming towards you, you have to react in some way, like shield it, jump away, etc, and Ganondorf can punish the action accordingly if he predicts it right. (Also, it replaces the Warlock Thrust, because that **** sucked)

Side Special Customs

• Side Special Custom 1-Rift: Ganondorf punches the ground, and a shockwave occurs, a giant purple one that covers a lot of distance and deals good damage and knockback.
  
• Side Special Custom 2-Gerudo Dragon: Many Melee players should recognize this as Ganondorf's old side special; a clone of the Raptor Boost. Mostly the same, but it's stronger now so that it stays stronger than the Raptor Boost, via buffs to damage (Ground: 17% → 19%), base knockback (Ground: 60 → 82), and knockback growth (Ground: 69 → 89). It also has many of the changes Falcon's Raptor Boost got (no longer dashes over ledges, leapfrog effect in midair, can grab ledges). Aerially, it's unchanged. (By the way, it replaces the very similar Flame Wave)

Up Special Customs

• Up Special Custom 1-Dark Fists: Nothing really changed here, this move is busted LMAO. Well, make it cover a bit less distance, so there's a real reason to use Dark Dive over it.
  
• Up Special Custom 2-Darkness Teleport (Or somethin like that): Ganondorf teleports using a portal of darkness. Has great distance potential, but you can see where he's going to exit. Basically, think a mixture between his up special in SSB Crusade and Black Mage's up special in Super Smash Flash 2.

Down Special Customs

• Down Special Custom 1-Wizard's Dropkick: Nothing really changed here, again. Maybe give him the ability to B-Reverse it?
  
• Up Special Custom 2-Earthquake Punch: Ganondorf slowly rises up in midair, and then with a grunt, slowly falls back down, punching the ground upon impact to create a shockwave like in the final boss of Ocarina of Time. It briefly stuns opponents before launching them, but the ending lag is punishable.

 

[QrowinSP]

Figure I'd give my two cents on what a moveset for him could be like.

A moves: Ganondorf would use the great sword Demise uses in SS. His attacks would have a long wind up, but they large, dramatic, and fast moving once they come out. Some things will stay the same from falcondorf, though. His dair and side tilt will remain the same, and his up tilt will work similarly, but look different. Also, his down smash is his ground pound from OOT.

Ganondorf can float like peach.

B: Dead Man's Volley: Has about 1.5 seconds of chargeup, after which Ganon flings the ball in target direction. It is big and has good damage. If an enemy hits it, it flies back, but Ganon can walk into it again to fire it back straight at them, even faster than before and with more damage/kill power. If you mash the B button, he'll do a different attack, with several smaller balls with slight homing that cannot be attacked. If all of them hit the enemy, the enemy is stunned for a couple seconds.

Up B: Sword teleport (idk): Similar to his move from ALttP, Ganondorf throws his sword in target direction and then warps to it. This does not induce freefall, and if you hold up or a jump button during the animation he will appear in the new location floating. This resets his float timer.

Side B: Sword play: Ganondorf holds his sword up to block. He blocks damage from attacks from the direction the special is used in and he can continue to walk and jump, but not run or attack. This lasts as long as you hold the button or are launched. Releasing the button causes him to attack in front of him. The attack is stronger if he blocked a lot of attacks.

Down B: Skyward Demise: Similar to Pikachu's thunder, but he holds up his sword and catches the lightning. Slower than Pikachu's down b, and it can't kill, but it has the added benefit of giving him a lightning sword that does slightly more damage for about 10 seconds. Using this again will expend the lightning on his sword to shoot out a powerful but slow projectile.

Final Smash: Still beast ganon, but with the BotW look.

 

[DefinitelyNotSascha]

I already posted this in the Revamp a Veteran-Thread, but I figured people here would be interested as well. Most of the poll does say they would like a revamp of ol' Ganondorf, and I'm no exception:

Notes:
I only used Wind Waker Ganondorf because he doesn't have detailed armour which is difficult to make look okay in every pose and because I don't have to draw his legs under the robe. (It may also be a it because he's my favourite incarnation of Ganondorf.)
As I mentioned in the alt.-section, I think the default costume should be an original one based on BotW.

As to why I changed his Final Smash, just look at my signature. I think Ganon should be a seperate character entirely, and I will most-likely post a moveset for him in the future as well.

 

[King9999]

I already posted this in the Revamp a Veteran-Thread, but I figured people here would be interested as well. Most of the poll does say they would like a revamp of ol' Ganondorf, and I'm no exception:

<removed image, too big>

Notes:
I only used Wind Waker Ganondorf because he doesn't have detailed armour which is difficult to make look okay in every pose and because I don't have to draw his legs under the robe. (It may also be a it because he's my favourite incarnation of Ganondorf.)
As I mentioned in the alt.-section, I think the default costume should be an original one based on BotW.

As to why I changed his Final Smash, just look at my signature. I think Ganon should be a seperate character entirely, and I will most-likely post a moveset for him in the future as well.

I replied to this on Reddit, but I'll respond here too.

I like that you kept the Flame Choke. That move alone defines Ganon. I would keep the Beast Ganon final smash, and instead make Phantom Ganon a B special and reduce the number of phantoms.

 

[ZealousGamer]

I do not believe the Hyrule Warriors version of Ganondorf will be added. I believe that we will see a new Breath of the Wild style redesign in the same way we got Shiek getting a Twilight Princess style redesign.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I do not believe the Hyrule Warriors version of Ganondorf will be added. I believe that we will see a new Breath of the Wild style redesign in the same way we got Shiek getting a Twilight Princess style redesign.

On a few occasions in this thread fan art of Calamity Ganondorf was shared and he looked pretty good. The difference bewteen Sheik's Brawl design and this Calamity Ganondorf idea is this:

Sheik's newer design was from a leftover and unused design that was drawn up for Twilight Princess. As far as we've been told, Breath of the Wild never had a design for Ganondorf ever drawn up.

So far, we only have 3 unused Ganondorf designs:

Oracle Duo:

Twilight Princess:

Personally, I find this first one hideous. And I don't mean that in the good way.

This next one from Twilight Princess, however:

It's a very monstrous/animalistic-looking Ganondorf, but I actually really like it. Unlike Twilight Princess' final design for Ganondorf, this one actually lets you see his muscles.

However, if a custom design that is pulled form the Breath of the Wild were to be made, which look would he be given? The Gerudo Voe? Or the Malice of Calamity?

...Or will he still like like he does in Brawl and Sm4sh? What if he goes back to his Ocarina/Melee look? There's really no telling what'll happen. Honestly, this situation has never happened in Smash Bros before. Ganondorf has always matched Link and Zelda in the origin of their designs. This is the first time that Link (and presumably Zelda) has pulled a new design that Ganondorf cannot naturally match. We're hitting new territory with this game.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Sheik's design in Smash 4 looks way more like it's inspired from Ocarina of Time than the Twilight Princess concept art as in Brawl. They did take some detail from it, but to me, Sheik looks like she's from OOT. Which makes sense, cause it's her only actual appearance. I hope Ganondorf can be his Ocarina of Time self again as well. The Melee design was a whole lot better than the Twilight Princess one anyway.

 

[SchAlternate]

I've seen the idea of Ganon having a design based on the Guardians and Blight Ganon tossed around a lot, and I think that would be pretty dope.

At the very least he can gain some kind of of Guardian weapon to use in his normals.

 

[SvartWolf]

While extremely underpowered against people who knows how to play, and exploit ganondorf weakness to the point of shutting him off, against lower skill opponents ganondorf is actually a very very satisfying character to use. there is no deny that at mid level ganondorf moveset actually works decently well (outside of a lore point of view).

On the other hand.. i do hate much of ganondorf animations, specially the acrobatics ones that he got from captain falcon. (lore or not lore, what you think when you think ganon is power, cunning, savagery, regalness, not Daredevilness and blazing speed that fit better capt falcon). so i really REALLY wish an animation overhaul, changing some kicks by strikes of dark magic, or stuff like that. (and by the love of din's replace that run with a float like palu or mewtwo DX)

That being said, i do think that ganondorf moveset could use more tools instead of just tweaking numbers. Anything that replaces warlock punch would be a decent buff, considering that move only use is to troll people. That being said, i been toying with an idea to rework ganondorf specials, that whould give them a whole new flavour and at the same time, keep them close to smash ganondorf.

While this idea doesn't come directly frmo a boss fight, or from something that ganondorf have made in his games, it takes inspiration from A link to the past, and a little from twilight princess, where ganon is related and sealed to the golden/dark realm, and his intro sequence when entering a smash fight.

Replace B with: "Dark world rift". after a windup, Ganondorf tears a rift into the dark world which stays in place, and make a slight pull akin to the vacuum effect of his up tilt .
"Dark World Shroud" when pressing B again whit a rift active, ganondorf teleports to the rift dealing damage, and gaining an armor that stays with him until hit or 10 seconds, absorving all knockback from one hit.

Also,if a rift is active, all special moves teleport ganodorf to the rift before executing the move, and consuming the rift in the process. suddenly ganondorf edgeguard became very scary, and is unique and totally different to any other character.

 

[majorasmaskfan]

You know Goku would be a better captian falcon clone then ganondorf, I mean he punches way more then dorf does, and if gannon doesn't need his most iconic move of energy tennis balls, then Goku doesn't need the Kamehameha.

 

[Quillion]

You know Goku would be a better captian falcon clone then ganondorf, I mean he punches way more then dorf does, and if gannon doesn't need his most iconic move of energy tennis balls, then Goku doesn't need the Kamehameha.

Mainstream and obscure characters alike in Smash lack some of their "iconic moves". Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it's okay for Ganondorf to not have his?

 

[Deleted member]

Mainstream and obscure characters alike in Smash lack some of their "iconic moves". Why do people have such a hard time accepting that it's okay for Ganondorf to not have his?

Yeah? Name five.

 

[Quillion]

Yeah? Name five.

1. Mario: No hammer, Goomba Stomp, or Ground Pound.
2. Ness: No PK Rockin', Paralysis or Hypnosis. Also should be noted that he has only one bat move.
3. Donkey Kong: No Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun.
4. Lucas: No PK Love.
5. Wario (as of Smash 4): No Shoulder Bash.
6. Pac-Man: No Butt Bounce or Rev Roll.
7. Roy: No explosive sword beam.
8. Luigi: No hammer, Goomba Stomp, or Ground Pound.

Even if you count Luigi as an extension of Mario and Lucas as an extension of Ness, that's 6 out of 5.

 

[Idon]

1. Mario: No hammer, Goomba Stomp, or Ground Pound.
2. Ness: No PK Rockin', Paralysis or Hypnosis. Also should be noted that he has only one bat move.
3. Donkey Kong: No Barrel Throw or Coconut Gun.
4. Lucas: No PK Love.
5. Wario (as of Smash 4): No Shoulder Bash.
6. Pac-Man: No Butt Bounce or Rev Roll.
7. Roy: No explosive sword beam.
8. Luigi: No hammer, Goomba Stomp, or Ground Pound.

Even if you count Luigi as an extension of Mario and Lucas as an extension of Ness, that's 6 out of 5.

Just want to point out a few things.
The Mario Bros. hammer is not iconic, at least not in the mainline games. It's more of a staple of the RPG Mario games so if Paper Mario ever gets in, I find it extremely likely the hammer's going to be featured prominently. The Goomba Stomp too could easily be attributed to his footstool.
Pac-Man's hardly got anything "iconic" outside of his final smash and his ghost smashes.
And while Roy lacks a ranged explosion part, the animation is still kept identical to its FE6 incarnation so it's clearly still a reference to the iconic move, even with its different function.

Now, onto the point at hand, no one's going to disagree that a few characters lacking references are the worst thing to happen to those characters.

However, Ganondorf is a whole different beast of his own, so let me clarify why Ganondorf fans are not okay with him as he is.
First off, his moveset is based off of a moveset of a completely different character of a completely different franchise. At least with other clones, you could argue that they had some connection to each other, but with Ganondorf, you could tell it's just one of those Smash traditions that was kept for no apparent reason.
Second off, unlike Cpt. Falcon, Ganon's not an obscure or minor character from a small franchise. He represents the collective antagonism of the entirety of the Legend of Zelda franchise, which is a rather big one. On top of being important, that leaves him with no shortage of references to draw from due to his multiple incarnations. So when Ganondorf, after three (and possibly four with Switch) entries peg him with a moveset that is unoriginal and unfaithful, fans will be upset.
Third off, he doesn't just lack a few iconic moves, he lacks *any* of them (outside of an arguable sideB and Ftilt, but I'd hardly call those moves iconic or popular). Throughout all his incarnations, Ganondorf has consistently wielded two things: black magic and weaponry. In Smash he disregards all those moves and adopts a slow lumbering fisticuff style, so the dissonance between how he moves and acts in Smash and LoZ is even greater.

Now you could argue that the way playing Ganondorf makes you feel like Ganondorf, but honestly, arguments like that are so vague and non-concrete, you could argue that playing anyone feels like playing Ganondorf and in general, fans don't agree about that anyway and an impasse is reached due to no two players feeling the same way.

And that concludes my overly long explanation about why Ganondorf fans don't like Smash's incarnation of him. So, in short you might disagree with these explanations and that's fine. I only ask that you understand where these arguments are coming from.

TLDR; HYRULE WARRIORS DID A FANFICY MADE UP GANONDORF BETTER.

 

[Quillion]

The Mario Bros. hammer is not iconic, at least not in the mainline games. It's more of a staple of the RPG Mario games so if Paper Mario ever gets in, I find it extremely likely the hammer's going to be featured prominently. The Goomba Stomp too could easily be attributed to his footstool.

The Hammer appeared in Donkey Kong, the original Mario vs. Donkey Kong game, the RPGs, and several spinoffs like the Tennis games. Mario's fisticuffs only appeared in SMRPG and 64. Isn't it rather clear that in his home franchise, Mario prefers melee combat with a hammer as opposed to his fists?

Also, Ness, Donkey Kong, Captain Falcon, and Zelda had stomping moves in Smash that predated the footstool. I find it ironic that no one demands that Mario use his most used move ever to be in Smash in spite of this.

Pac-Man's hardly got anything "iconic" outside of his final smash and his ghost smashes.

And while Roy lacks a ranged explosion part, the animation is still kept identical to its FE6 incarnation so it's clearly still a reference to the iconic move, even with its different function.

I can say the same thing about several of Ganondorf's moves:

• Even though Ganon's jab lacks a sword, the animation is otherwise identical to his sword jab in Twilight Princess.
• Even though aerial Flame Choke requires that an opponent is in his grab, the animation is otherwise identical to the ground punch
• Even though the Warlock Punch isn't striking the ground, he's still charging up his hand with magical force before striking.

Now, onto the point at hand, no one's going to disagree that a few characters lacking references are the worst thing to happen to those characters.

However, Ganondorf is a whole different beast of his own, so let me clarify why Ganondorf fans are not okay with him as he is.
First off, his moveset is based off of a moveset of a completely different character of a completely different franchise. At least with other clones, you could argue that they had some connection to each other, but with Ganondorf, you could tell it's just one of those Smash traditions that was kept for no apparent reason.

Ridley has the same features as Charizard: fiery breath, wings, reptilian appearance. No one would mind if Ridley was a Charizard clone.

Second off, unlike Cpt. Falcon, Ganon's not an obscure or minor character from a small franchise. He represents the collective antagonism of the entirety of the Legend of Zelda franchise, which is a rather big one. On top of being important, that leaves him with no shortage of references to draw from due to his multiple incarnations. So when Ganondorf, after three (and possibly four with Switch) entries peg him with a moveset that is unoriginal and unfaithful, fans will be upset.

Alright, you've got me beat here. I just want to say, though, that most of the characters that debuted circa Smash 64 and Melee didn't have the "faithfulness" demand that Brawl-onward characters get.

Third off, he doesn't just lack a few iconic moves, he lacks *any* of them (outside of an arguable sideB and Ftilt, but I'd hardly call those moves iconic or popular). Throughout all his incarnations, Ganondorf has consistently wielded two things: black magic and weaponry. In Smash he disregards all those moves and adopts a slow lumbering fisticuff style, so the dissonance between how he moves and acts in Smash and LoZ is even greater.

Ganondorf has used several punching, kicking, or other hand-to-hand moves in his games though:

• OoT: Ground Punch in boss fight.
• WW: Backhands Link in a few cutscenes, punches him out in another cutscene, and uses a kick in his boss fight
• TP: Elbow strike and kick in boss fight; the latter of which is already his F-tilt.

Meanwhile, as stated earlier, Mario clearly prefers using a hammer over his fists for melee combat, but despite him being even more popular than Ganon, NO ONE wants his fisticuffs moveset changed.

Now you could argue that the way playing Ganondorf makes you feel like Ganondorf, but honestly, arguments like that are so vague and non-concrete, you could argue that playing anyone feels like playing Ganondorf and in general, fans don't agree about that anyway and an impasse is reached due to no two players feeling the same way.

It may be non-concrete, but I'd argue that feel really is more important. Back to Mario: the spinoffs always have him as the well-rounded character that can play well in any role. Smash maintains this. However, even though it's clearly established that Mario's melee weapon of choice is a hammer, no one minds that Mario only uses his fists, because feel is more important.

And why he may not be as popular, Ness feels like the psychic-wielding kid in EarthBound. Even though he doesn't have PK Rockin', Paralysis, or Hypnosis.

And that concludes my overly long explanation about why Ganondorf fans don't like Smash's incarnation of him. So, in short you might disagree with these explanations and that's fine. I only ask that you understand where these arguments are coming from.

I totally understand where these arguments are coming from. I just don't hesitate to turn that logic back on you.

TLDR; HYRULE WARRIORS DID A FANFICY MADE UP GANONDORF BETTER.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Not that I want to get too involved since I like many of Ganondorf's moves, I just think he could use a few updates (and a better look), but there are a few things I feel compelled to point out.

The Hammer appeared in Donkey Kong, the original Mario vs. Donkey Kong game, the RPGs, and several spinoffs like the Tennis games. Mario's fisticuffs only appeared in SMRPG and 64. Isn't it rather clear that in his home franchise, Mario prefers melee combat with a hammer as opposed to his fists?

You're identifying Mario's hammer as a viable move from the RPGs, spin-offs, and the original DK game. Mario in Smash is taking his cues from the main-series games, which are the ones that don't favor hammers. If every single game Mario was ever in were considered, there's no possible way that he could do everything. Fortunately, there are other Mario characters who could represent those other games, while he stuck to main-series.

Besides, Smash also considers the original Donkey Kong as a DK game based on the stage and Masterpiece (and Sm4sh even disposed of the Jumpman Mario recolor).

As to the RPG's - that's one thing that most people who want Paper Mario are annoyed about, and why they continually claim that PM wouldn't be a Mrio clone since he'd use his hammer primarily.

And the spin-offs? The only character referenced from the spinoffs is some things from Luigi's Mansion and Waluigi-the-perennial-assist and a Mario Kart stage. People are again asking for a lot of references from there, which usually builds the movesets of Waluigi or Daisy.

Also, Ness, Donkey Kong, Captain Falcon, and Zelda had stomping moves in Smash that predated the footstool. I find it ironic that no one demands that Mario use his most used move ever to be in Smash in spite of this.

By Mario's iconic footstool, you mean "jumping on something's head?" Many of the Mario games don't even have a special 'footstool' button, it's just jump-and-land-on-something. And Mario's been able to jump since the beginning.

Ridley has the same features as Charizard: fiery breath, wings, reptilian appearance. No one would mind if Ridley was a Charizard clone.

...are we talking about the same character here? The one who, once that idea came up in his DLC thread from the last round of speculation was met with choruses of "That's a terrible idea! If he started as a clone, then he'd never get represented properly! Look what happened to Ganondorf!"

I remember from last round that a lot of Ridley supporters were very against that idea.

Alright, you've got me beat here. I just want to say, though, that most of the characters that debuted circa Smash 64 and Melee didn't have the "faithfulness" demand that Brawl-onward characters get.

This is a completely true statement. Ganondorf was also very nicely Luigified between Melee and Brawl, but he never got the love later characters did.

Ganondorf has used several punching, kicking, or other hand-to-hand moves in his games though:

• OoT: Ground Punch in boss fight.
• WW: Backhands Link in a few cutscenes, punches him out in another cutscene, and uses a kick in his boss fight
• TP: Elbow strike and kick in boss fight; the latter of which is already his F-tilt.

Meanwhile, as stated earlier, Mario clearly prefers using a hammer over his fists for melee combat, but despite him being even more popular than Ganon, NO ONE wants his fisticuffs moveset changed.

But again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Mario doesn't really use the hammer in his main series games, but in the spin-offs. Meanwhile, Ganondorf has rarely been seen in his main-series games without a sword, and in every fight against him he has used some form of weapon, save for his Ocarina of Time battle where he only used the projectile volley.

Honestly, Mario is nothing to me so I couldn't care less if he ended up with a hammer or not. But if the Smash incarnation is taking after the main series, it should be irrelevant what happens in the spinoffs, otherwise Peach should have a dice block from Mario Party, Yoshi should trade a special for a baseball bat, and since Link was in Mario Kart 8, we should give him a Kart instead of a boomerang.

And like I mentioned, fans of Paper Mario do complain about the lack of RPG representation, and their movesets usually revolve around a hammer-wielding Mario.

Again, feelings are very personal, but I feel like Hyrule Warriors' Ganondorf was a bit more faithful than Smash's despite both being decently original. I do like a lot of Ganondorf's Smash moves - his side special particularly and the Sparta Kick - but I would not mind more changes to him than I would for most characters.

 

[Idon]

Not that I want to get too involved since I like many of Ganondorf's moves, I just think he could use a few updates (and a better look), but there are a few things I feel compelled to point out.

You're identifying Mario's hammer as a viable move from the RPGs, spin-offs, and the original DK game. Mario in Smash is taking his cues from the main-series games, which are the ones that don't favor hammers. If every single game Mario was ever in were considered, there's no possible way that he could do everything. Fortunately, there are other Mario characters who could represent those other games, while he stuck to main-series.

Besides, Smash also considers the original Donkey Kong as a DK game based on the stage and Masterpiece (and Sm4sh even disposed of the Jumpman Mario recolor).

As to the RPG's - that's one thing that most people who want Paper Mario are annoyed about, and why they continually claim that PM wouldn't be a Mrio clone since he'd use his hammer primarily.

And the spin-offs? The only character referenced from the spinoffs is some things from Luigi's Mansion and Waluigi-the-perennial-assist and a Mario Kart stage. People are again asking for a lot of references from there, which usually builds the movesets of Waluigi or Daisy.


By Mario's iconic footstool, you mean "jumping on something's head?" Many of the Mario games don't even have a special 'footstool' button, it's just jump-and-land-on-something. And Mario's been able to jump since the beginning.


...are we talking about the same character here? The one who, once that idea came up in his DLC thread from the last round of speculation was met with choruses of "That's a terrible idea! If he started as a clone, then he'd never get represented properly! Look what happened to Ganondorf!"

I remember from last round that a lot of Ridley supporters were very against that idea.


This is a completely true statement. Ganondorf was also very nicely Luigified between Melee and Brawl, but he never got the love later characters did.


But again, you seem to be contradicting yourself. Mario doesn't really use the hammer in his main series games, but in the spin-offs. Meanwhile, Ganondorf has rarely been seen in his main-series games without a sword, and in every fight against him he has used some form of weapon, save for his Ocarina of Time battle where he only used the projectile volley.

Honestly, Mario is nothing to me so I couldn't care less if he ended up with a hammer or not. But if the Smash incarnation is taking after the main series, it should be irrelevant what happens in the spinoffs, otherwise Peach should have a dice block from Mario Party, Yoshi should trade a special for a baseball bat, and since Link was in Mario Kart 8, we should give him a Kart instead of a boomerang.

And like I mentioned, fans of Paper Mario do complain about the lack of RPG representation, and their movesets usually revolve around a hammer-wielding Mario.

Again, feelings are very personal, but I feel like Hyrule Warriors' Ganondorf was a bit more faithful than Smash's despite both being decently original. I do like a lot of Ganondorf's Smash moves - his side special particularly and the Sparta Kick - but I would not mind more changes to him than I would for most characters.

Dammit, I was in the middle of typing stuff and then I just noticed your post.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Dammit, I was in the middle of typing stuff and then I just noticed your post.

Sorry about that if I stepped on your thoughts. Please post anyway, I do like to see all these thoughts about how to update Ganondorf. Honestly I don't even know what I'd do since I don't completely hate his moveset, but I do feel it's a bit unfitting.

 

[Idon]

Well I just wanted to mention "iconicism" is based far more on what fans remember him doing rather than what you can barely justify as him doing.

Stuff like "it's the one move he does in TP except without the sword" is hardly enough to satisfy fans. Most don't remember Ganondorf stabbing you with a sword [except not having a sword and replacing it with an open palm striked] or punching the ground [except it only works if he grabbed someone and is in the air and is actually a chokeslam] isn't as powerful a love-letter as
"that's the cool flashy thing thing he did that one time exactly like he did in the game!"



As for his moves that would be lost were he to be made wholly unique, I'd honestly put in an expy character to take all those moves.
Ganondorf's admittadly terrible moves are still quite fun so it'd be a waste to get rid of them. At the same time, I like Ganondorf too much to let him have a moveset that isn't unique or heavily referential.
The conundrum now is changing our current Ganondorf will put him halfway between Captain Falcon clone and unique character when many people would prefer one or the other.
So a replacement character is the compromise I would go with personally if I had any sway.

Not like any of this conversation matters since everyone knows Sakurai hates to make huge changes to the existing roster.

 

[Dee Dude]

Most want Ganon to turn unique and stay true to his character.

Some want Falcondorf to remain to avoid alienating his mains.

Why not use both? He keeps some of his decloned Falcondorf moves (side special, up tilit, jab etc) while the rest of the moves that are still cloned can become original.

Everyone gets what they want.

 

[Idon]

Most want Ganon to turn unique and stay true to his character.

Some want Falcondorf to remain to avoid alienating his mains.

Why not use both? He keeps some of his decloned Falcondorf moves (side special, up tilit, jab etc) while the rest of the moves that are still cloned can become original.

Everyone gets what they want.

I'l repeat what I said.
"The conundrum now is changing our current Ganondorf will put him halfway between Captain Falcon clone and unique character when many people would prefer one or the other."

 

[Quillion]

I'l repeat what I said.
"The conundrum now is changing our current Ganondorf will put him halfway between Captain Falcon clone and unique character when many people would prefer one or the other."

Then the solution is simple: have his down taunt actually give him a full "sword mode."

A large number of Brawl/PM hackers were able to do just this without having to implement a full "Zelda/Sheik" thing where character files are completely switched.

 

[majorasmaskfan]

For all the people pointing out the one time ganondorf punched, you know he still has tilts and a jab and the like, he doesn't need a punch special.

 

[Quillion]

For all the people pointing out the one time ganondorf punched, you know he still has tilts and a jab and the like, he doesn't need a punch special.

And yet people are happy with Ness having one Smash attack representing his (at the time) two game series history of MOTHER protagonists using bats as their main weapon. Even when Lucas prefers sticks, he can still pick up a bat.

 

[Idon]

And yet people are happy with Ness having one Smash attack representing his (at the time) two game series history of MOTHER protagonists using bats as their main weapon. Even when Lucas prefers sticks, he can still pick up a bat.

Probably because Mother/Earthbound is a niche franchise that doesn't get much attention from Nintendo anymore as compared to Zelda which has had a staple game for every console (except in the case of the Wii U and Switch where they share BOTW)

 

[Quillion]

Probably because Mother/Earthbound is a niche franchise that doesn't get much attention from Nintendo anymore as compared to Zelda which has had a staple game for every console (except in the case of the Wii U and Switch where they share BOTW)

You know what I noticed? Nobody panics when things go according to plan. Even when the plan involves characters disproportionately not using moves they should. If tomorrow Sakurai developed a no-name character, like, Takamaru from Mysterious Murasame Castle not having his katana, or Musashi from Sushi Striker not having their sushi plates, nobody panics. Because it's all part of the plan. But when Sakurai decrees that one little old Ganondorf can't have his weapons or magic, well then everybody loses their minds!

Spoiler: In case you don't get the reference...

Thank you, Christopher Nolan.

 

[DNeon]

And yet people are happy with Ness having one Smash attack representing his (at the time) two game series history of MOTHER protagonists using bats as their main weapon. Even when Lucas prefers sticks, he can still pick up a bat.

Stop saying this stupid ****. Every time this is your response. No, people aren't happy about it. They're just not in this thread, because this isn't that thread, and stop saying a problem isn't a problem because there's other problems.

Quillion, seriously, stop commenting the same thing over and over, it's not bringing anything to the discussion. Ness fans want more bat usage. Ganondorf fans want more Ganondorf usage. People know that, we've talked about it, if you're doing nothing but repreating yourself then why do you feel the need to continue commenting?

 

[Idon]

Stop saying this stupid ****. Every time this is your response. No, people aren't happy about it. They're just not in this thread, because this isn't that thread, and stop saying a problem isn't a problem because there's other problems.

Quillion, seriously, stop commenting the same thing over and over, it's not bringing anything to the discussion. Ness fans want more bat usage. Ganondorf fans want more Ganondorf usage. People know that, we've talked about it, if you're doing nothing but repreating yourself then why do you feel the need to continue commenting?

Also would like to add "X is worse than Y, so Y is okay" is generally poor reasoning.

 

[Naroghin]

Well, whatever they do to the character, I really hope they hold to the tradition of giving him a new, easily found, useless tech so we can keep up our steady stream of revolutionaries bursting into Ganoncord/Ganonboards with their new 'discovery' that is sure to breathe new life into Ganon's meta and move him at least one whole level up on the tier list.

 

[TumblrFamous]

I'm not super bothered by Ganondorf punching and kicking, the whole power thing makes sense in that regard, but under two conditions:

1. It's not his entire moveset because he is a warlock
2. He doesn't feel cloney.

So far neither conditions have been met for me. He's just a sluggish Falcon. It's really disrespectful to the king of evil. Like, not even getting his Dead Man's Volley is such a huge slap in the face to any Zelda fan.

 

[SS2000]

*sees the wannabe falcon punch*
It happened again.... I feel so down from that one moment that I don't feel any excitement for anything else at all...
(Moral of the story: never hold even the slightest glimmer of hope... lest you be utterly disappointed every time.)

 

[TumblrFamous]

UM HE HAS A NEW SWORD MOVE

 

[Quillion]

I hope you plebeians are happy now. If you complain that the one sword move is still "not good enough", I'll just bring up Ness again.

 

[DNeon]

I hope you plebeians are happy now. If you complain that the one sword move is still "not good enough", I'll just bring up Ness again.

Imma just copy and paste this now...

Stop saying this stupid ****. Every time this is your response. No, people aren't happy about it. They're just not in this thread, because this isn't that thread, and stop saying a problem isn't a problem because there's other problems.

Quillion, seriously, stop commenting the same thing over and over, it's not bringing anything to the discussion. Ness fans want more bat usage. Ganondorf fans want more Ganondorf usage. People know that, we've talked about it, if you're doing nothing but repreating yourself then why do you feel the need to continue commenting?

 

[MoonlitIllusion]

So all his smashes are sword attacks, it's certainly better than nothing I suppose and he'll feel more like ganny cause of it, he generally looks faster too, a projectile would've been the cherry on top of the cake but I guess not

 

[Shadow Novus]

I'm...ok with this. Ganondorf's smashes are with his greatsword. That's actually pretty cool.

Plus, fan as I am of his TP design, this OOT look is awesome.

And they changed his Final Smash! It's OOT final form Ganon. Overall I'm happy. Would I have preferred a complete moveset rework? Of course, but I can accept this compromise.

 

[Diddy Kong]

Am 100% satisfied with Ganondorf now honestly.