A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[Erimir]

Obviously the solution most satisfying to Ganondorf fans and Falcondorf fans would've been to make Black Shadow an echo fighter that is mostly Melee Ganondorf (but could borrow an element or two from Brawl/Sm4sh Ganondorf) and give Ganondorf a mostly new moveset (keeping the Sparta kick would make sense, maybe Flame Choke, throws don't really have an analogue in the Zelda games so whatever)

But the notion that even this moveset is representative of the character is ridiculous. Ganondorf's behavior in his appearances in Zelda games:

Legend of Zelda NES - fireballs, teleportation, invisibility
Link to the Past - trident, fireballs/blazing bats, teleportation, invisibility
Aghanim persona in LttP - teleportation, "Dead Man's Volley", lightning and other projectiles
Ocarina of Time - rides a horse (in cutscenes), shockwaves, can hover, Dead Man's Volley, multi-projectile, dual swords as beast form Ganon
Oracle GBC games - mostly similar to LttP Ganon (trident, fireballs, teleportation)
Wind Waker - dual swords (fairly agile as well)
Four Swords - again, mostly similar to LttP Ganon (trident, fireballs, teleportation)
Twilight Princess - rides a horse, swordplay, Beast Ganon charges
Link Between Worlds - Yuga Ganon is similar to LttP Ganon (including blazing bats) + Dead Man's Volley
Breath of the Wild - Calamity Ganon doesn't really resemble previous incarnations so much

Every incarnation of Ganondorf has him using a weapon AND/OR a projectile (usually "energy" balls or fireballs, sometimes blazing bats). There is no incarnation of him where he fights without using either. Even Calamity Ganon uses projectiles. He also frequently has the ability to hover or teleport. There is no incarnation where he has a grab explosion, a flaming flying kick or a super-powered punch.

Also notable that several of these attributes are shared by imitation Phantom Ganons - Dead Man's Volley, horseback riding, teleportation, hovering, swords or tridents. If you're imitating Ganondorf... you use those elements: one or two swords, or a trident, and projectiles. But if you're trying to represent the actual Ganondorf... you use none of them?

So sure, a couple of Ganondorf's Smash moves are used in the Zelda games, like the Sparta kick and his Final Smash. Maybe you can find some resemblance with his other basic attacks to some movement in Twilight Princess. But a random smack or whatever isn't "iconic", and the Sparta kick is more so because it's one of his best/most satisfying moves in Smash than because it's an important element in TP. Before SSBU... the fact that Ganondorf typically uses a sword or two, trident and/or magic projectiles was not represented in his moveset (not counting taunts or a single custom special).

Falcondorf bears almost no resemblance to Ganondorf in the games... until now. Now he bears at least some resemblance. Still, giving him sword smashes is a big improvement but isn't enough to make him an actually good representation of Ganondorf (hell, none of the animations are found in the Zelda games afaik). That said, I definitely like it compared to keeping his SSB4 moveset!

 

[Banjodorf]

Yeah, but at this point, I doubt full character revamps like that are ever going to happen. There was an opportunity with BotW Link, but they made tweaks more similar to this. So I'm just willing to accept that the moveset Smash Dorf has in SSBU is fitting for Ganondorf, even if it doesn't pull things from the games to make him really *look* the part.

Utilizing dark magic to unleash brutal hits, swinging a big sword around, and sadistic things like Flame Choke, all *feel* like something Ganondorf *could* or *would* do. So it's not completely unlike him, and I'm happy with it.

Do we have any confirmation on if he has his Melee run animation? Because the TP Ganon run animation in Smash is *horrendous*.

 

[Morbi]

Yeah, but at this point, I doubt full character revamps like that are ever going to happen. There was an opportunity with BotW Link, but they made tweaks more similar to this. So I'm just willing to accept that the moveset Smash Dorf has in SSBU is fitting for Ganondorf, even if it doesn't pull things from the games to make him really *look* the part.

Utilizing dark magic to unleash brutal hits, swinging a big sword around, and sadistic things like Flame Choke, all *feel* like something Ganondorf *could* or *would* do. So it's not completely unlike him, and I'm happy with it.

Do we have any confirmation on if he has his Melee run animation? Because the TP Ganon run animation in Smash is *horrendous*.

Honestly, you never know, this game is essentially the Armageddon of Smash, everything is here. Once it becomes too bloated (which it arguably already is), there is a chance they will attempt to reboot the series with entirely new move-sets for OG (not necessarily original 12)/important characters instead of focusing on adding new ones. Especially if Sakurai does legitimately stop making games for the series as he constantly claims he will. In other words, never say never.

 

[Banjodorf]

Honestly, you never know, this game is essentially the Armageddon of Smash, everything is here. Once it becomes too bloated (which it arguably already is), there is a chance they will attempt to reboot the series with entirely new move-sets for OG (not necessarily original 12)/important characters instead of focusing on adding new ones. Especially if Sakurai does legitimately stop making games for the series as he constantly claims he will. In other words, never say never.

Obviously never say never, but on the other hand, who the hell would be more excited about a reboot than something like this? I'd rather keep all these characters than have Ganondorf's moveset be a bit more lore-accurate.

 

[Morbi]

Obviously never say never, but on the other hand, who the hell would be more excited about a reboot than something like this? I'd rather keep all these characters than have Ganondorf's moveset be a bit more lore-accurate.

After twenty years of the same Mario, the same Link, the same Samus, etc. The list obviously goes on, and with other characters having somewhat lazy move-sets, I myself would be very interested in a more focused, balanced, roster of 30 or so. The same applies to stages, I am tired of the ones that have appeared in 3-4 games. I would rather have newer stuff to be completely real. These giant compilations are a good way of making everyone happy, but are never truly pleasing to any individual, if that makes any sense.

These types of things only work once. I cannot see it being a big reveal in the future. "Everything is back, and we added a tiny bit extra too." You have to reinvent the wheel at a certain point. But that is just my opinion.

 

[King9999]

Ganon is definitely the type who would choke a fool.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Ganon is definitely the type who would choke a fool.

You're not wrong.

He's technically done it before.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Looks like Ganondorf still needs more work done. For starters, his u-tilt desperately needs heavy armor.

 

[roymustang1990-]

As long as the thundering dair stays.I'm fine.most satisfying move to land with every time

 

[DNeon]

heavy characters are supposed to have no projectile game in exchange for their high weight.

Lol Ridley

 

[Erimir]

Lol Ridley

And Dedede.

 

[NintenRob]

And Dedede.

And Bowser

 

[Hokori]

And Bowser

And Snaaaaake

Doesn't look the part, but he's actually fat as ****

 

[godogod]

And Snaaaaake

Doesn't look the part, but he's actually fat as ****

and charizard

 

[DNeon]

And Bowser

and charizard

Ok lets cool it a bit, he was pretty damn wrong but unless we're counting custom specials I wouldn't say their flame breath is exactly a projectile.

 

[SS2000]

For me it has always mainly been the special moves that mainly define a characters. Same for many other people I am sure. I remember back when folks speculated what moves Ryu might have before getting in, everybody and his brother expected Shoryuken for up special, Hadouken for neutral, and Tatsumaki to be side/down (just like what actually happened). Imagine if Ryu had instead been made a Falcon clone... There'd be rioting in the streets! lol
If Ganondorf wasn't a long established clone, you can bet anything people would be expecting Deadman's Volley for neutral/side special, along with other moves from his source games. The special moves are what needed to be changed the most. The funny thing is that there are soooo many ways to please everybody that it feels like somebody calling the shots must just be too thick headed to see the light. Imagine if Ganondorf's neutral special worked like this: tap the B button and he throws his iconic energy ball, tap it repetitively real fast and he could charge a slew of them like in Ocarina of time, but if you HOLD the button he instead grabs the energy as his hand slowly lights up with magic and he unleashes a powerful Falcon Warlock punch. There, everybody has the B move they want. See how easy that was? I'm sure similar compromises could be made for other moves. For example, make it so that hitting B a second time after starting his down B causes him to instntly smash the ground and make a short DK-like shock wave, and doing it in the air sends him going straight down and causes a bigger shockwave the higher up he came from (like he did in Ocarina of Time). Make it so that when he doesn't grab anybody when using his up B, he floats for a second or two (something else from Ocarina of Time). Make it so when using his side B, if he makes contact with a projectile, he pulls a Pit but smacks it right back at his opponent (like in Ocarina of time again) instead of away. Look at that! People that have dreamed of using his Ocarina of Time moves for the last 20 years finaly have their dreams come true, and at the same time Falcondorf lives on for those that want him! So many simple such solutions that I'm totally baffled something like that still hasn't happened.
Though to be honest, I would rather just see the Falcon Kick and the Falcon Hump both just go altogether. Those moves are just totally not Ganondorf. lol

 

[Diddy Kong]

and charizard

And Donkey Kong

 

[Quillion]

Erimir and others: Seriously. Sakurai and the Smash team finally decide to give you the moon, and you ask for the stars as well?

Yes, Ganondorf was a last-minute addition to Melee and that's why he has a punching moveset. But that doesn't mean he's any less faithful to his canon than any of the other characters in Smash. Have you ever once thought that, when you've played the post-Melee Zelda games, that the Aonuma, Fujibayashi, and the Zelda team are also working to incorporate his Smash portrayal into the canon? Here's just one example:

You only want Ganondorf to be portrayed how YOU want him, not how he actually is.

And don't give me that "But his moves aren't iconic!" Because ultimately:

 

[NintendoKnight]

Erimir and others: Seriously. Sakurai and the Smash team finally decide to give you the moon, and you ask for the stars as well?

It's more like we ordered a Happy Meal from McDonalds but all we got was a small fry. And then here you are trying to tell us to be happy with less than what we wanted. I'm happy I got the fries, but it isn't everything I asked for.

Yes, Ganondorf was a last-minute addition to Melee and that's why he has a punching moveset. But that doesn't mean he's any less faithful to his canon than any of the other characters in Smash.

...Uhh, that's exactly what that means.

Have you ever once thought that, when you've played the post-Melee Zelda games, that the Aonuma, Fujibayashi, and the Zelda team are also working to incorporate his Smash portrayal into the canon?

No. Considering Ganondorf was a boss before Smash Bros was even a concept proves how untrue that is. Also, the Zelda team has made NO EFFORTS towards consolidating Smash Ganondorf into LoZ Ganondorf. Seriously, in the 3 canon Zelda games Ganondorf has been in, how many had him fight you solely with punching? I guarantee you a fat zero.

And for that matter, if Smash truly gave the Zelda characters their "true" movesets, then why hasn't Princess Zelda proven herself capable of the three goddess spells yet? Quick answer: Smash has no effect on the Zelda series. So stop acting like it does.

Here's just one example:

Man, you really do not want to do this again with me. Cutscenes =/= Gameplay.

You only want Ganondorf to be portrayed how YOU want him, not how he actually is.

If you believe that Smash Ganondorf is how he's "supposed" to be portrayed, then show me your evidence. And use only evidence from the Legend of Zelda, because Smash will not help your case. But let me save you the trouble: you will not find it... because there is none.

And don't give me that "But his moves aren't iconic!" Because ultimately:

Facts =/= Opinions.

Your opinion is the one going against the grain. And you have no facts to back it up, unlike our opinions which are based directly on fact.

And another thing, stating the opposition's opinion does not win you the argument.
"It's just, like, your opinion that the sky is blue, man."
It doesn't add to your argument, and it only proves you couldn't come up with a factual counterpoint, thus resorting to stating the obvious.

 

[Lyndis_]

Incredibly disappointed they gave us OoT over the Hyrule Warriors, and I feel the changes are really underwhelming, but w/e.

Still a huge improvement Sm4sh, though. I'm glad he actually uses his sword in some form now... even if it's the bare minimum.

Baby steps. Maybe within 20 years Ganondorf will actually have a full moveset /s

 

[LaughingLefou]

Incredibly disappointed they gave us OoT over the Hyrule Warriors, and I feel the changes are really underwhelming, but w/e.

Still a huge improvement Sm4sh, though. I'm glad he actually uses his sword in some form now... even if it's the bare minimum.

Baby steps. Maybe within 20 years Ganondorf will actually have a full moveset /s

Yeah, I would have loved Warlord Ganondorf, but OoT isn't a bad design either.

 

[Erimir]

Erimir and others: Seriously. Sakurai and the Smash team finally decide to give you the moon, and you ask for the stars as well?

I'm not unhappy with it. It's not like I pout and refuse to play as Ganondorf, he's been one of my secondaries since Melee despite his Brawl/Smash 4 suckitude.

But if you're telling me that this is now a fitting move set, it's like getting the moon... lol no. I'm glad they've improved him a lot and it looks like he might not be garbage tier again, which is cool. But that doesn't mean punching and flying kicks and no projectiles is an accurate portrayal of him.

Yes, Ganondorf was a last-minute addition to Melee and that's why he has a punching moveset. But that doesn't mean he's any less faithful to his canon than any of the other characters in Smash.

Yes, I was ****ing a woman not my wife, but that doesn't mean I'm any less faithful to her than any other husband is.

Have you ever once thought that, when you've played the post-Melee Zelda games, that the Aonuma, Fujibayashi, and the Zelda team are also working to incorporate his Smash portrayal into the canon? Here's just one example:
[video of Wind Waker Ganondorf punching Link]

I never once thought that, and I feel stupider for having to think about it.

1. Ganondorf was not made to punch to make him resemble Smash. Punching is a pretty basic fighting action. There's no reason to think it had anything to do with Smash. They don't even resemble any Ganondorf Melee moves... they're generic punches.

Inspired by that Star Wars clip, it would be like adding Luke Skywalker to the game and having him be a Falcon clone, and not having him use Force telekinesis or a lightsaber, and then someone (who might just be trolling) comes and links to a clip of Luke punching a couple times to argue that actually it's totally faithful to canon.

2. This very suggestion undermines your argument completely. If that clip shows they had Ganondorf punch in order to bring his canon appearance in line with his Smash portrayal, you're admitting that his original Melee appearance was so completely out of character that they would consider two generic punches to be a way of making them align.

You only want Ganondorf to be portrayed how YOU want him, not how he actually is.

In fact, that last argument and this bit here are so ridiculous that I have to conclude you're just ****ing with people in here.

 

[Z1GMA]

SHFF NAir looks crazy in the current build.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Ok lets cool it a bit, he was pretty damn wrong but unless we're counting custom specials I wouldn't say their flame breath is exactly a projectile.

Let's hope that custom specials do return, since right now, Wizard's Dropkick is the only thing helping Ganondorf overcome his poor recovery. Sure, Dark Fists also helps with the longer start-up enabling him to still move forward, but not being able to grab during the jump does leave Ganondorf vulnerable if his uppercut hitbox doesn't hit anyone.

 

[DNeon]

Let's hope that custom specials do return, since right now, Wizard's Dropkick is the only thing helping Ganondorf overcome his poor recovery. Sure, Dark Fists also helps with the longer start-up enabling him to still move forward, but not being able to grab during the jump does leave Ganondorf vulnerable if his uppercut hitbox doesn't hit anyone.

I'm genuinely surprised they didn't durn Dropkick into the main one given its massive success.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'm genuinely surprised they didn't durn Dropkick into the main one given its massive success.

Wizard's Dropkick is less damaging than Wizard's Foot, however, and it can miss smaller targets when used on the ground.

 

[King9999]

Can someone confirm if Ganon's new smashes have a tipper? I've seen his f-smash do varying amounts of damage, as high as 31% uncharged.

EDIT: He does!

Compare these two vids:
F-smash, 31% damage uncharged https://youtu.be/SmhjioVFmDo?t=86
F-smash, 26% uncharged https://youtu.be/7ruLnvz6Y_Y?t=110

 

[Venraneld]

At this point I would be happy if they just replaced his Warlock Punch with Dead Man's Volley. There are more changes I would want for sure, but it's frustrating that he is missing his most iconic attack.

 

[MrReyes96]

Pretty good changes for ganondorf
But I still believe the only solution for an actual faithful moveset is having classic Ganon playable.
And yes his final smash is Ganon but traditional fat pig Ganon with trident isn’t.

 

[Erimir]

Obviously the solution most satisfying to Ganondorf fans and Falcondorf fans would've been to make Black Shadow an echo fighter that is mostly Melee Ganondorf (but could borrow an element or two from Brawl/Sm4sh Ganondorf) and give Ganondorf a mostly new moveset (keeping the Sparta kick would make sense, maybe Flame Choke, throws don't really have an analogue in the Zelda games so whatever)

I was just imagining what the character trailer would be for Black Shadow, and it could be so hype because it would be a joint trailer with Ganondorf's revamp.

Captain Falcon is doing something when Black Shadow appears and attacks him, using essentially the old Falcondorf moveset with minor changes (obviously the Final Smash would need to change, for example). Black Shadow is showcased for a few seconds, but we've seen these moves so we don't need a lot of time... Then they are interrupted by a energy ball or fire ball... Cut to Ganondorf, hovering above them... wait a minute, why does Ganondorf get a newcomer splash screen?! Ganondorf battle music plays. Then show Ganondorf using his sword, dark magic projectiles, teleporting or hovering? (hovering while using the projectile airborne would make sense), dair or d-special being a ground slam that causes shockwaves (borrowing from Flame Choke, it could be a command grab if next to an opponent that slams them into the ground), etc... Final Smash has him turn into blue pig beast Ganon, twirling his trident and sending blazing bats swirling across the screen (I guess the SSBU final smash would be fine too...).

 

[King9999]

It's looking like Ganon's air Wiz Foot will still be good for breaking shields.

 

[Idon]

Honestly, I've given up on Smash ever accurately depicting Zelda characters outside of Link. And even then, just adult Link.

For as stale as the gameplay gets in Hyrule Warriors, it's a perfect fanservice and love letter to the franchise.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly, I've given up on Smash ever accurately depicting Zelda characters outside of Link. And even then, just adult Link.

For as stale as the gameplay gets in Hyrule Warriors, it's a perfect fanservice and love letter to the franchise.

Okay, what? I know that I've been trying to argue that Ganondorf's portayal doesn't get the credit it deserves, but I can still admit that he resembles his canon depiction the least of all Smash characters.

But extending it to most of the Zelda cast? That's going way overboard. You do realize the entire Smash team works closely with each franchise's original developers to perfect each portrayal. Sure, some characters can seem outdated because they debuted much earlier than others, but it's a sign of respect towards Smash's own dedicated fans. They need to balance giving respect to Smash's dedicated fans and each represented franchise's fans is all.

And no, giving Black Shadow the moveset is a poor solution; he has no popularity aside being a "Ganondorf moveset dump."

 

[Erimir]

Yes, Ganondorf was a last-minute addition to Melee and that's why he has a punching moveset. But that doesn't mean he's any less faithful to his canon than any of the other characters in Smash.

I can still admit that he resembles his canon depiction the least of all Smash characters.

hmmm...

And no, giving Black Shadow the moveset is a poor solution; he has no popularity aside being a "Ganondorf moveset dump."

Well that's, just like, your opinion man.

Anyway, he would probably please F-Zero fans. And as for Ganondorf moveset dump... so? Not like many were likely begging for Dr Mario or Pichu before Melee. Totally revamping Ganondorf without pushing his moveset onto Black Shadow would probably please fewer people.

Either way, I'm not sure why you care so much whether other people think that Smash Ganondorf is a good representation of the character. Like, are you afraid that Sakurai will hear us whining and change him and you hate the idea of him getting a projectile for some reason?

 

[Idon]

Okay, what? I know that I've been trying to argue that Ganondorf's portayal doesn't get the credit it deserves, but I can still admit that he resembles his canon depiction the least of all Smash characters.

But extending it to most of the Zelda cast? That's going way overboard. You do realize the entire Smash team works closely with each franchise's original developers to perfect each portrayal. Sure, some characters can seem outdated because they debuted much earlier than others, but it's a sign of respect towards Smash's own dedicated fans. They need to balance giving respect to Smash's dedicated fans and each represented franchise's fans is all.

And no, giving Black Shadow the moveset is a poor solution; he has no popularity aside being a "Ganondorf moveset dump."

Sure, you say that they work closely with the Zelda developers, but that doesn't actually show in game.

Excluding Zelda and Sheik who don't exactly have much to work with, they're all clones of an already existing character. "Smash veteran respect" or no, you can't say they don't have material to work with and you can't say that they're even remotely original and as a franchise fan first and a nostalgic Smash player second, that's just personally not to my taste.

And I never said, Black Shadow dump is a good solution, it's just the one I would personally pick at this point.
The best solution would involve traveling back in time and giving Melee another year in the oven, but we can't exactly do that.

 

[Just a random scrub]

I'm gonna repost something I stated about Ganondorf's old moveset going to Black Shadow in the E3 Discussion Thread, because that solution simply wouldn't work:

I've never seen anybody who actually wants Black Shaodw on his own merits, and instead just treat him as an object to dump a moveset they don't like to. The fact that more people advocating for his inclusion are Zelda fanboys than F-Zero fanboys is pretty telling. Ignoring the fact that Black Shadow doesn't fit the slow but powerful archetype at all in F-Zero (or at least, his vehicle doesn't), this is by far the most selfish and disrespectful way to include any character. It's way worse than just including a clone. It's literally just introducing a character to give another character's unaltered moveset to. A replacement clone. Heck, seeing as how Ganondorf uses his sword for his smashes now, it makes even less sense to port his moveset over to Black Shadow.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I'm gonna repost something I stated about Ganondorf's old moveset going to Black Shadow in the E3 Discussion Thread, because that solution simply wouldn't work:

I've never seen anybody who actually wants Black Shaodw on his own merits, and instead just treat him as an object to dump a moveset they don't like to. The fact that more people advocating for his inclusion are Zelda fanboys than F-Zero fanboys is pretty telling. Ignoring the fact that Black Shadow doesn't fit the slow but powerful archetype at all in F-Zero (or at least, his vehicle doesn't), this is by far the most selfish and disrespectful way to include any character. It's way worse than just including a clone. It's literally just introducing a character to give another character's unaltered moveset to. A replacement clone. Heck, seeing as how Ganondorf uses his sword for his smashes now, it makes even less sense to port his moveset over to Black Shadow.

Have you been to the Black Shadow support thread? Most of those guys are pretty okay with him getting Ganon's old moves.
Logically speaking, it makes more sense for an F-Zero character to be a clone of an F-Zero character than it does for a Zelda character to be a clone of an F-Zero character, especially if that Zelda character has plenty to pull from already.

Also, Black Shadow's vehicle doesn't necessarily have an effect on how he as a character moves. Captain Falcon was designed to be fast and aggressive, matching the style of his games, but not necessarily matching his vehicle specifically.

 

[ggamer77]

Ganondorf was added last minute to Melee and therefore they just copies his moves over from Falcon.
It just seems baffling to me that a character who has been in 4 Smash games now still has nearly the same move set aside from tweaks.

 

[godogod]

Ganondorf was added last minute to Melee and therefore they just copies his moves over from Falcon.
It just seems baffling to me that a character who has been in 4 Smash games now still has nearly the same move set aside from tweaks.

People got used to his moveset and gameplay as as the heavier and stronger but slower falcon.. I think it would have been too much of a radical change to change it completely. Deadman's volley would have been great on him(maybe we'll still have custom movesets and it will be brought back), though at least warlock punch as super frames.

He's pretty different from falcon now anyway. His side special is different, and his standard, smash and aerials are very different as well.

 

[Quillion]

hmmm...

I supposed that was contradictory, but what I mean is that while Ganondorf resembles his canon self the least of the characters in Smash, it's not to such a significant degree that it's a big deal.

Anyway, he would probably please F-Zero fans. And as for Ganondorf moveset dump... so? Not like many were likely begging for Dr Mario or Pichu before Melee. Totally revamping Ganondorf without pushing his moveset onto Black Shadow would probably please fewer people.

Either way, I'm not sure why you care so much whether other people think that Smash Ganondorf is a good representation of the character. Like, are you afraid that Sakurai will hear us whining and change him and you hate the idea of him getting a projectile for some reason?

I'm actually not opposed to a revamp; I'm more attacking the whole "Canondorf" movement that screams ignorance of how Smash respects different aspects of characters while ignoring others. And those ignored aspects are often ignored because they're newer and they need to respect older Smash fans.

That's why I bring up stuff like Mario's lack of a hammer, Goomba Stomp, and recent gimmick abilities like Star Spin and Cappy. I could easily argue that Smash absolutely needs to stop ignoring those aspects, but no, I just treat them as cool suggestions.

Have you been to the Black Shadow support thread? Most of those guys are pretty okay with him getting Ganon's old moves.

Because most of them are not F-Zero fans. They're Canondorf complainers.

Logically speaking, it makes more sense for an F-Zero character to be a clone of an F-Zero character than it does for a Zelda character to be a clone of an F-Zero character, especially if that Zelda character has plenty to pull from already.

Also, Black Shadow's vehicle doesn't necessarily have an effect on how he as a character moves. Captain Falcon was designed to be fast and aggressive, matching the style of his games, but not necessarily matching his vehicle specifically.

While I do agree that an Black Shadow should be a heavy character (heavy builds in racing games and fighting games are totally different; they have high top speed and low acceleration in racing, but are slow and strong in fighting games), I'd like to point something out:

Black Shadow is canonically A SORCERER in his series.

Don't you find it hilarious that the Canondorf movement is opposed to Ganondorf using his fists because he's a sword-wielding sorcerer, yet they want Black Shadow to take the moveset despite him being a sorcerer?

(P.S.: Yes, GX's cutscenes are that bad)