A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[meleebrawler]

Good point. I've seen quite a bit of good plays with DK in tournaments even if he ultimately suffers from the common issues plaguing heavies in Smash.

Honestly, if they're going to commit to making the glaciers actually good this time, they need to overhaul the hitstun system. In all of its forms, it gives every character essentially the same level of hitstun, meaning heavies automatically can't take advantage of it. The change it needs most, though is to give each move a different base hitstun value: light characters have low hitstun to go with their weak attacks, while heavy characters have long hitstun times so that it supports their heavy hits.

Let's wait and see how standardized jumpsquats and landing lags affects heavy combo starters.

 

[SaltyKracka]

In fact, even just shielding the projectile can be more than enough to render it useless if it doesn't have an additional shield damage bonus.

If you consider forcing an opponent to shield something that renders a projectile useless, boy have I got news for you. The plain fact of the matter is that having even easily reflected or negated projectiles are flatly superior to having no projectiles at all. (see Mario, Luigi; D3, King; and Yu, R for further details)

 

[Boartobewild]

Good point. I've seen quite a bit of good plays with DK in tournaments even if he ultimately suffers from the common issues plaguing heavies in Smash.

Honestly, if they're going to commit to making the glaciers actually good this time, they need to overhaul the hitstun system. In all of its forms, it gives every character essentially the same level of hitstun, meaning heavies automatically can't take advantage of it. The change it needs most, though is to give each move a different base hitstun value: light characters have low hitstun to go with their weak attacks, while heavy characters have long hitstun times so that it supports their heavy hits.

Seems like someone didn't bother to read my previous post.

If you consider forcing an opponent to shield something that renders a projectile useless, boy have I got news for you. The plain fact of the matter is that having even easily reflected or negated projectiles are flatly superior to having no projectiles at all. (see Mario, Luigi; D3, King; and Yu, R for further details)

For example just giving Ganon some more room to breathe and force a different approach or godforbid pressuring/annoying the opponent a little, can go a long way in turning the situation around or creating an opening.

I can understand why most people are so perplexed by the idea of using projetiles and dictating the pace and rhythm of a fight, but if you really think about it, isn't that how it should be? Think back to the games ( and most bossfight scenarios in general) Link is normally the one, who observes patterns of the boss and waits for a certain attack or weakspot/opportunity to strike, but in smash it's the complete opposite concerning the two! Quite ironic isn't it?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I'll just mention that Melee Ganondorf had no projectiles at all, and yet he has an average ranking in the Melee competitive scene. Getting Ganondorf to be a viable close-range fighter is doable, but the developers just don't have the best ideas on how to make him good, or at least good enough to be an average tiered participant.

Anyway, one would think that with Ganondorf reverting back to his Ocarina of Time incarnation, he would be more mobile than his Twilight Princess incarnation. Even a run speed value of at least 1.5 would help him out.

 

[meleebrawler]

For example just giving Ganon some more room to breath and force a different approach or godforbid pressuring/annoying the opponent a little can go a long way in turning the situation around or creating an opening.

I can understand why most people are so perplexed by the idea of using projetiles and dictating the pace and rhythm of a fight, but if you really think about it, isn't that how it should be? Think back to the games ( and most bossfight scenarios in general) Link is normally the one, who observes patterns of the boss and waits for a certain attack or weakspot/opportunity to strike, but in smash it's the complete opposite concerning the two! Quite ironic isn't it?

Ganondorf isn't a boss that is invulnerable unless he uses a specific attack in Smash. That's the difference.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly, I'm perplexed that both sides are against the idea of just a regular, non-reflectable projectile.

 

[meleebrawler]

Almost any time they give a big heavy some projectiles to work with, it has some sort of drawback that makes it impractical for helping
win neutral. It could be as simple as poor frame data, being weak (Charizard Flare Cannon), reflected on hit (Gordos), or newly introduced
in this game, risk of backfire (Ridley's fire breath).

Something to think about regarding the ''grappler'' philosophy.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Just give him the projectile already lol. We are so close to an almost fully decloned Ganon I can taste it. We are 50% there.

His orb projectile is one of his most iconic moves. Whether he does it as pig Ganon, human Ganon, possessing Zelda so many games he is in he does that one move.
Other characters like Bayonetta and Ryu are very loyal to their moves from their games it only makes sense the big bad from THE LEGEND OD ZELDA one of Nintendos best series would get that treatment too.

 

[Boartobewild]

Honestly, I'm perplexed that both sides are against the idea of just a regular, non-reflectable projectile.

Well, actually if we take the properties of dead man's volley in Windwaker into account, the blue lightning orb could bypass/strike through Link's shield, even his mirror shield that you would think would be able to reflect it, but no it doesn't.

So if we wanna be canon(ganon) we could have a projectile that get's faster/stronger relativ to the strength of the attack it got bounced back by(if it's a fast but too weak one it could just make an immdiate u-turn towards the pathetic fool) and breaks/ignores shields and reflectors.

Now that would be an attack worthy of the Demon King and probably one of the best abilities Kirby could inhale in this case.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well, actually if we take the properties of dead man's volley in Windwaker into account, the blue lightning orb could bypass/strike through Link's shield, even his mirror shield that you would think would be able to reflect it, but no it doesn't.

So if we wanna be canon(ganon) we could have a projectile that get's faster/stronger relativ to the strength of the attack it got bounced back by(if it's a fast but too weak one it could just make an immdiate u-turn towards the pathetic fool) and breaks/ignores shields and reflectors.

Now that would be an attack worthy of the Demon King and probably one of the best abilities Kirby could inhale in this case.

Except most of Kirby's moves will probably be too weak to properly reflect this ball.

But who cares, he's not Ganon, right?

 

[Boartobewild]

Except most of Kirby's moves will probably be too weak to properly reflect this ball.

But who cares, he's not Ganon, right?

If you consider forcing an opponent to shield something that renders a projectile useless, boy have I got news for you. The plain fact of the matter is that having even easily reflected or negated projectiles are flatly superior to having no projectiles at all. (see Mario, Luigi; D3, King; and Yu, R for further details)

That's really all that needs to be said on that matter.

 

[meleebrawler]

You just said you can't block this projectile. Even if you could, who would block a projectile that, if it functions anything like the volleys
I'm thinking of, moves slow and can be easily dodged at range or be returned at close range where Ganondorf cannot possibly react in time?

 

[Boartobewild]

You just said you can't block this projectile. Even if you could, who would block a projectile that, if it functions anything like the volleys
I'm thinking of, moves slow and can be easily dodged at range or be returned at close range where Ganondorf cannot possibly react in time?

Of course I was referring to the part that even a easily blocked or reflected projectile is better than having no projectile at all.

As for being easy to dodge or easily intercepted by immediatley attacing from close range, yeah I see no problem with that. I don't want Ganon to have something as braindead like witch time that you can't even interrupt by grabbing, me and a lot of other people just want an iconic move that really helps him distinguish from other characters.

And before you actually have all the move's frame data and hitbox properties in mind, there's no point arguing. My idea for DMV was just meant as an outlier, nothing more.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Idk if this was answered already. But do we know if alternate/custom specials are returning? If so would they be allowed in competitive play? If so that's a good way to get DMV + Warlock punch + warlock sword. And maybe even more unique specials while people who like his current stuff to keep it.

Although I think his default B should be DMV plus a teleport Up B. But as long as it can be used in competition that would be hype

 

[Idon]

Idk if this was answered already. But do we know if alternate/custom specials are returning? If so would they be allowed in competitive play? If so that's a good way to get DMV + Warlock punch + warlock sword. And maybe even more unique specials while people who like his current stuff to keep it.

Although I think his default B should be DMV plus a teleport Up B. But as long as it can be used in competition that would be hype

1. We do not have direct confirmation whether they are returning or not, but due to Palutena having her alternate side b replacing reflector and reflector becoming an alternate counter animation, signs point to them not returning, at least for non-Mii characters.
2. They most certainly will not be, if they follow the same trends that Smash 4 does, with poorly balanced customs, painfully annoying unlock methods, and lack of consistency across tourneys. If those 3 issues could be fixed, then there is a chance.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

1. We do not have direct confirmation whether they are returning or not, but due to Palutena having her alternate side b replacing reflector and reflector becoming an alternate counter animation, signs point to them not returning, at least for non-Mii characters.
2. They most certainly will not be, if they follow the same trends that Smash 4 does, with poorly balanced customs, painfully annoying unlock methods, and lack of consistency across tourneys. If those 3 issues could be fixed, then there is a chance.

oh makes sense. Thanks for the explanation

 

[Rizen]

I always wanted to play Ganon but he was bad in the last 2 games. Even for low tier events Charizard was much better. Here's hoping he's good (enough) in SSBU.

 

[Quillion]

Almost any time they give a big heavy some projectiles to work with, it has some sort of drawback that makes it impractical for helping
win neutral. It could be as simple as poor frame data, being weak (Charizard Flare Cannon), reflected on hit (Gordos), or newly introduced
in this game, risk of backfire (Ridley's fire breath).

Something to think about regarding the ''grappler'' philosophy.

Frankly, I'm confused at why all the "big heavy" characters all have to be grapplers. Light characters are close-range speedsters, long-range zoners, and gimmick fighters alike.

 

[meleebrawler]

Frankly, I'm confused at why all the "big heavy" characters all have to be grapplers. Light characters are close-range speedsters, long-range zoners, and gimmick fighters alike.

Well Samus, Snake & Link are all zoners to some extent and pretty heavy. They're just not ''big'', only tall. Megaman is also a bit heavy.

 

[OhMyBanana54]

Hey has anyone figured out how much faster ganondorf’s movement speed is in this game than last game? It seemed faster to me but I want to make sure that’s not placebo.

 

[Just a random scrub]

Has anybody noticed if Ganondorf has his Melee dash animation back (or at least something better than his current dashing animation)? I really hope that with the fact he's going back to his more atlethic Ocarina of Time design, he dosen't keep his old man jogging.

 

[Garo]

Has anybody noticed if Ganondorf has his Melee dash animation back (or at least something better than his current dashing animation)? I really hope that with the fact he's going back to his more atlethic Ocarina of Time design, he dosen't keeþp his old man jogging.

Yes, Ganondorf has a new dash animation where he leans forward more. Not the same as in Melee, mind, as that was just Captain Falcon's dash animation but slowed down. This new one seems to have the weightiness of his jog, but it looks much more menacing.

 

[Hokori]

Any YouTubers post Ultimate Ganondorf matches from CEO? I typically see Marth, Fox, Ridley, Pokemon Trainer, Snake, and a select few others sprinkled in here and there. I know we've already seen his moves and everything, but I still like watching new videos if they're available. I think some have even uploaded matches without items involved.

EDIT

Found this from Nintendo World in NY.

 

[meleebrawler]

Any YouTubers post Ultimate Ganondorf matches from CEO? I typically see Marth, Fox, Ridley, Pokemon Trainer, Snake, and a select few others sprinkled in here and there. I know we've already seen his moves and everything, but I still like watching new videos if they're available. I think some have even uploaded matches without items involved.

EDIT

Found this from Nintendo World in NY.

Lots of good stuff in that clip. Wizkick and Dark Dive's grab look like they come out really fast now, and uair can still send people flying backwards with the late hit. Dark Dive in particular has massively increased knockback. Enough to kill on-stage?

 

[Hokori]

Lots of good stuff in that clip. Wizkick and Dark Dive's grab look like they come out really fast now, and uair can still send people flying backwards with the late hit. Dark Dive in particular has massively increased knockback. Enough to kill on-stage?

Wizkick not only comes out fast, but it seems to not suffer from much end lag as well (referring to the Grounded Wizkick). Compared to Smash 4 anyway.

That's what I wanna know. At the very least, with the speed + general knockback changes, Dark Dive should make for a nice OoS option.

And finally...yesss, it was nice seeing that Uair. I was getting worried with comments suggesting otherwise.

EDIT - Slowing down the footage, I see that Ganondorf hit Inkling right before his leg actually started to arch back behind him. Hmmm.

 

[Boartobewild]

Wizkick not only comes out fast, but it seems to not suffer from much end lag as well (referring to the Grounded Wizkick). Compared to Smash 4 anyway.

That's what I wanna know. At the very least, with the speed + general knockback changes, Dark Dive should make for a nice OoS option.

And finally...yesss, it was nice seeing that Uair. I was getting worried with comments suggesting otherwise.

EDIT - Slowing down the footage, I see that Ganondorf hit Inkling right before his leg actually started to arch back behind him. Hmmm.

So I guess since the animation looked different, and felt not quite the same, whoever wrote/added that ssb wiki info felt certain that ganon got either nerfed or just received either Mario&co's or just Falcon's uair, since they felt it would be too strong otherwise?

Well whatever the case may be, I'm still pissed that Ganon and Falcon, who are notorious for their lackluster recovery, are apparently now in the minority of becoming helpless after their side-b. Well here's hoping that Sakurai fixes this(especially now where ganoncide is no longer guranteed and ganon is now more at risk for using it!), but if there's one thing I'm even more intrested in, it's whether warlock punch got more superarmor frames, or still has that ridiciolous property of not receiving armor frames in the air and becoming stronger in the air despite the fact that it's impossible for ganon to make use of this without the help of platforms or basically guranteed asuicide if he tries it off stage!!!

 

[Hokori]

So I guess since the animation looked different, and felt not quite the same, whoever wrote/added that ssb wiki info felt certain that ganon got either nerfed or just received either Mario&co's or just Falcon's uair, since they felt it would be too strong otherwise?

Well whatever the case may be, I'm still pissed that Ganon and Falcon, who are notorious for their lackluster recovery, are apparently now in the minority of becoming helpless after their side-b. Well here's hoping that Sakurai fixes this(especially now where ganoncide is no longer guranteed and ganon is now more at risk for using it!), but if there's one thing I'm even more intrested in, it's whether warlock punch got more superarmor frames, or still has that ridiciolous property of not receiving armor frames in the air and becoming stronger in the air despite the fact that it's impossible for ganon to make use of this without the help of platforms or basically guranteed asuicide if he tries it off stage!!!

Possibly. I haven't seen a clip that showed Ganon's Uair failing to hit below and behind like the wiki suggests, so I can only assume it's the animation.

How many characters have we seen so far get a buff from their specials no longer sending them into freefall? Zelda, Sheik, DK, and Little Mac?

Excuse the double post, but we finally get to see some Ganondorf vids with no items involved. Featuring Eikelmann's Ganon.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

A decent recovery can make or break a character. Falcon's should be buffed too. But Ganon's issue is mostly horizontal I think a hover is the simplest way to solve this and it would fit the cannon.

Excuse the double post, but we finally get to see some Ganondorf vids with no items involved. Featuring Eikelmann's Ganon.

Nice matches!
Ganon looks pretty fast now I'm really liking him so far from what I see.

I do still think Wiz Kick should be a KO move at 100-120% (depending on opponent ofcourse).
And please give him his DMV projectile? Please daddy sakurai?

 

[Hokori]

Yeahhh, I was a bit disappointed to see Wiz Kick lack that "oomph", but that's something that could change by release and/or future patches if the devs see fit. As for his hover + DMV, as much as I'd love that, I've kept my hopes in check.

 

[meleebrawler]

Possibly. I haven't seen a clip that showed Ganon's Uair failing to hit below and behind like the wiki suggests, so I can only assume it's the animation.

How many characters have we seen so far get a buff from their specials no longer sending them into freefall? Zelda, Sheik, DK, and Little Mac?

You do know that most of those specials don't contribute to recovery in any way, right? But for the record, there's also PK Flash and Yoshi's Egg Roll in 4. And while Mac's recovery might be better in terms of distance, it's still bad due to having basically nothing to threaten the opponent with off-stage.

If someone mashes out Ganoncide, does Ganondorf still become helpless?

 

[Rizen]

What do you guys think of Ganon's sword smashes? TBH I'm not impressed. Ganon already had huge areas of attack and his sword doesn't really improve that. Usmash in particular was great in SSB4 with little endlag and great shield safety but now it might be more punishable, although the wide ark covers behind him now. It's not a bad change but not especially helpful either imo.

 

[Hokori]

You do know that most of those specials don't contribute to recovery in any way, right? But for the record, there's also PK Flash and Yoshi's Egg Roll in 4. And while Mac's recovery might be better in terms of distance, it's still bad due to having basically nothing to threaten the opponent with off-stage.

If someone mashes out Ganoncide, does Ganondorf still become helpless?

Of course. Though the wording in my post might've suggested I was referring to recovery buffs, I honestly kinda brought them up "just because".

As for your second question, this clip is the only evidence I've seen of the mash out and it was really close to the blast zone, so I can't tell for sure. It'd be tragic for a player to just get in the way of your recovering Flame Choke and mash out while you just have to suffer and die helplessly, haha.

What do you guys think of Ganon's sword smashes? TBH I'm not impressed. Ganon already had huge areas of attack and his sword doesn't really improve that. Usmash in particular was great in SSB4 with little endlag and great shield safety but now it might be more punishable, although the wide ark covers behind him now. It's not a bad change but not especially helpful either imo.

I'll definitely miss the old USmash, but I do like the coverage from the new USmash, especially on stages like Battlefield. DSmash is a welcome addition though.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

What do you guys think of Ganon's sword smashes? TBH I'm not impressed. Ganon already had huge areas of attack and his sword doesn't really improve that. Usmash in particular was great in SSB4 with little endlag and great shield safety but now it might be more punishable, although the wide ark covers behind him now. It's not a bad change but not especially helpful either imo.

I love them. His stupid little elbow and even worse the duck-able down smash were useless.
And now his up smash gains coverage and some tech chase potential while only losing some speed.
They look like they have a little too much end lag but that can be tweaked easily.

I'm more then pleased with the change. Too bad his up tilt didn't become his old up smash or even better another sword move!

 

[Rizen]

^Yeah IDK what the devs were thinking when they made his Utilt. "Lets give a character with powerful smashes and warlock punch a Utilt that is superlaggy but a powerful kill move. That should round out his moveset."

 

[meleebrawler]

Of course. Though the wording in my post might've suggested I was referring to recovery buffs, I honestly kinda brought them up "just because".

As for your second question, this clip is the only evidence I've seen of the mash out and it was really close to the blast zone, so I can't tell for sure. It'd be tragic for a player to just get in the way of your recovering Flame Choke and mash out while you just have to suffer and die helplessly, haha.

I don't think he does. His helpless animation is more hunched over, you can see it in that Nintendo World clip you posted earlier, whereas in the Ganoncide he remains straight.

Side note, I think the only character who can't act out of side b at this point is Shulk with his Back Slash, though that's mainly due to the move not ending until it hits the ground.

About his utilt... it is able to hit much higher than it could previously, so in a way it kind of is his old usmash . I wonder if it can hit through Battlefield platforms?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

^Yeah IDK what the devs were thinking when they made his Utilt. "Lets give a character with powerful smashes and warlock punch a Utilt that is superlaggy but a powerful kill move. That should round out his moveset."

Idk what the devs/sakurai were thinking with Brawl/Smash4 Ganon...
Let's take an E tier Melee character who is a clone and not only NOT give him a unique moveset let's make him even worse then he already was! Lol

It's as if they either hate Ganon and/or LOZ characters or they are trolling us.

Smash Ultimate looks promising for Ganon tho. He seems fast and he has a bunch of kill moves on ground or air. They just need to fine tune some stuff and give him a better recovery (hover please) and his god-damn orb already!!!!
Give his up tilt the super armor and just get rid of warlock punch already... God its frustrating were so close to a unique Ganon I can taste it.
Maybe by release? Maybe an update? I know wishful thinking lol

 

[meleebrawler]

Idk what the devs/sakurai were thinking with Brawl/Smash4 Ganon...
Let's take an E tier Melee character who is a clone and not only NOT give him a unique moveset let's make him even worse then he already was! Lol

It's as if they either hate Ganon and/or LOZ characters or they are trolling us.

Smash Ultimate looks promising for Ganon tho. He seems fast and he has a bunch of kill moves on ground or air. They just need to fine tune some stuff and give him a better recovery (hover please) and his god-damn orb already!!!!
Give his up tilt the super armor and just get rid of warlock punch already... God its frustrating were so close to a unique Ganon I can taste it.
Maybe by release? Maybe an update? I know wishful thinking lol

It's too late to get rid of the punch, he uses it in Hyrule Warriors (albeit to punch an energy ball into pieces), and once a move from Smash makes it
into other games, that's the sign it's too far ingrained to be removed. The most that will happen is it getting modified.

 

[Rizen]

It's too late to get rid of the punch, he uses it in Hyrule Warriors (albeit to punch an energy ball into pieces), and once a move from Smash makes it
into other games, that's the sign it's too far ingrained to be removed. The most that will happen is it getting modified.

Link's bombs and hookshot. -_-

 

[meleebrawler]

Link's bombs and hookshot. -_-

It's too late to get rid of the punch, he uses it in Hyrule Warriors (albeit to punch an energy ball into pieces), and once a move originating from Smash makes it
into other games, that's the sign it's too far ingrained to be removed. The most that will happen is it getting modified.

 

[Rizen]

The point was moves can change at any time even on established characters. IDC if they started in smash or not. It's all up to Sakurai's whims.