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Sorry but I couldn't disagree more. He doesn't "deserve" brawling... he actually deserve more unique moves. More sword attacks, more magic attacks, Dead Mans Volley, a teleport, a hover mechanic etc.
We already have plenty of magic/psychic users and heavy sword users. Why do we need to turn a unique brawler into one?
, just saying.
Falcon is a rushdown brawler with a mix of slow and fast attacks.
As
Rizen
noted; Captain Falcon is the unique brawler. Ganondorf is the main antagonist of the LOZ series Nintendo's 2nd biggest franchise. It goes without saying that Ganon should be represented with moves from his games.
Look, people are miffed that Bowser lost his brutal headbutt. People are pissed at Link's BotW based changes since it's not their preference for Link to have those abilities. These aren't even monumental changes yet people hate them.As
If they keep him the same as now but add: DMV, a teleport Up B, a hover and a functional up tilt I'll be (and most Ganon/Loz fans) very happy. His standard and aerial moves stay virtually the same but he gets a better and cannon recovery and his famous projectile.
I also hope for more big magic effects on his punches and kicks just so he stands out as a magic infused attacks fighter. Also if we could get down B in the air to be his OoT ground punch I would be ecstatic!
Also imagine what cool throws he could have if they tried to derive them from the games and wanted them to be unique.
We can disagree on how we prefer Ganon to be. But I think its indisputable to say that Ganon Nintendo's 2nd biggest bad guy should get more respect in his moveset from his own franchise and have the least amount of clone moves as possible.
His playstyle doesn't automatically change from some different moves. If anything it can be enhanced by those moves.
That's a fan project; they can do whatever the hell they want.
It might be a fan project. But it was extremely and professionally well done. I promise if you used it against human opponents of high skill you would've liked it too. Its literally the same bait and punish style we have now but with a good recovery, better options to deal with the neutral and projectiles and better ways to approach so we can be aggressive too. You should check it out of you can.
Do you want to give Zelda projectile normal Light Arrows despite her being a consistently terrible character?
Why not give her light arrows? If its better than her current B or side B why not change it for the better?
I also hear that his sword does more damage at the tip, which would make them even better for spacing, yet they're clearly still plenty powerful even at the base, which is something that can't be said for Ike's tippers.
I wrote a blurb about the new Link here, tl;dr I think he looks bad. Since then we discovered Dthrow no longer combos. I hate the changes.
I didn't know about the tippers! That's awesome news. And yeah they are definitely very powerful at their base... which means tipping with them would be crazy powerful.
I still think giving Warlock Punch an "uncharged" version that reflects projectiles would be the best solution. No need to ruin his playstyle further with a projectile.
I have to agree. Ganon's playstyle in Smash is merely a modified (and rather crappy) Falcon style, not his own style.
Giving Ganondorf a projectile wouldn't "ruin" his playstyle. Warlock Punch is basically useless, giving him a decent projectile will give him an additional option without preventing you from playing him basically the same way as you did before, since before you were ignoring his neutral special also. At any rate, it wouldn't be particularly any worse than other characters that have gotten new specials and lost old ones (or large changes to particular moves). They change characters. Ganondorf's changes from Melee to Brawl changed his playstyle more than his sword attacks probably will. The removal of chain grabs and wobbles will change Ice Climbers' playstyle just as radically, for example. There's a way you can play the old Falcondorf as much as you want: play Melee, Brawl or Smash 4.
And, either way, I was merely noting that there's no reason for Dead Man's Volley has to work like Dedede's Gordo or WFT's soccer ball and be reflectible by normal attacks. Based on Zelda canon, Ganondorf's projectiles can't be reflected by the large majority of attacks and Link is generally the only character that has the requisite equipment. Additionally, Dead Man's Volley is the only projectile Ganon uses that can be reflected - he has a number of other projectile attacks that can't be reflected at all (various energy projectiles, fireballs, Blazing Bats, lightning) although he mostly uses those when in beast form or disguised as Agahnim. Why you need to respond to that point about Ganondorf's projectiles not being canonically vulnerable to reflection by just any attack by reiterating what we all know, you hate the idea of changing Falcondorf and don't care about Canondorf, I don't know. Nobody cares about hearing you say you don't like the idea for the 50th time and it has no relevance to what I was talking about.
Either way, my opinion is that Ganondorf was ruined in Melee by being Falcondorf. Falcondorf was a perfectly fine fighter from a gameplay perspective, and I enjoyed playing as him. But he wasn't really Ganondorf. You can disagree, but continuing to whine about other people having other preferences is just annoying. If you don't give a **** about the character-based aspect of Smash, fine. I guess you'd have preferred Dragon King: The Fighting Game instead of Super Smash Bros with totally generic fighters. But other fans (probably the large majority) would not have preferred that. So quit trying to convince people that Falcondorf is actually accurate or something and constantly ****ting on other people's opinions or even discussing how he might be changed when all you have to offer is "but wah, I don't want him to change" and ridiculous claims like "one scene in Windwaker where Ganondorf throws an ordinary punch" shows that Falcondorf is accurate and/or that the Zelda devs were trying to incorporate Falcondorf into Zelda.
That said, giving Ganondorf a reflector attack would be another way of representing Dead Man's Volley and isn't the worst idea, since Ganondorf often has issues with projectiles due to his slow speed and tallness. But maybe I like him that way! Maybe a reflector would "ruin" his playstyle because I enjoy having to figure out how to deal with projectiles as large, slow character without a reflector!
It USED to be blatantly inaccurate, back when OOT was the only game Ganondorf appeared in. But all other games move him away from spell-slinging when he's in single combat. He smacks Toon Link silly with his bare hands both times they meet in Wind Waker, and crushes a Sage to death with what would later be known as Flame Choke in Twilight Princess. So in all of his appearances where he's fighting as himself, he only really threw spells once, and used swords or his fists for the rest. He could do with a projectile to complete the references to all his appearances, but as it is a mix of fist and swordfighting is not far off the mark at all.I have to agree. Ganon's playstyle in Smash is merely a modified (and rather crappy) Falcon style, not his own style.
In the games, Ganon (and by extension Ganondorf) has never been a brawler. Therefore, he shouldn't be represented as something he isn't.
On the general discussion board for Smash Ultimate (Then Smash for Switch), in the primary discussion thread, there was a brief discussion that I did not get the chance to join in on due to unavailability. One of the users was saying that he felt that Ganondorf using his fists was the greatest display of his major attribute: Power. And that it would be weird for Ganondorf to use magic or swords because it seemed "less powerful."
If I had the chance, I would've responded with this:
Which character is a greater example of someone with immense power?
Akuma from Street Fighter?
Or Darth Sidious from Star Wars?
Now, both of these characters are near polar opposites in how they fight. Akuma uses his fists augmented with Ki and a few Ki projectiles, Sidious uses the Force and his lightsaber(s). However, Darth Sidious is undisputedly not weaker than Akuma.
The question that would've followed would've been: which character do you believe Ganondorf would follow in terms of combat style? Akuma or Sidious?
Because of Ganondorf's physical build (and the influence of his cloneship stemming from Melee), many people assume he'd be an Akuma type of fighter...
...But that's horribly, horribly incorrect. Ganondorf is a Sidious-style fighter. Darth Sidious uses a bladed weapon and the mystic arts to fight. Does this make him weak? Absolutely not! If anything, this makes him more terrifying. What's a greater display of strength? Being able to punch a house down as an impressive showing of physical strength? Or being able to wave your hand at the house and reduce it to dust with the might of your will alone?
Power comes in different forms, and isn't exclusively located within one's knuckles. The Zelda series has proven time and again, and re-iterated time and again, that martial prowess is not what makes Ganon(dorf) a huge threat. He's a wizard with a sword, not a brawler with cast-iron fists.
Anyone who argues that Ganondorf would totally opt to punch someone as his primary method of dealing death over swinging a blade or casting magic is objectively, and factually wrong.
Besides, it's not like I'm exclusively riled about Ganondorf. Melee Bowser is MY Bowser, and Smash 4 Link is MY Link. I don't care that Bowser being an agile wrestler is canon, nor do I care that Link is being an obligatory "recent game" reference.
I guarantee you people only complain about this these days due to Ganon being bottom tier the past few games. If his ''non-canon'' moveset happened to make him super-viable, the complaints would be only be minor annoyances at best, or be brought up by people who DON'T play Ganon, kind of like how the people mainly complaining about ZSS being more viable than normal Samus because ''canon'' are Samus players themeselves. Hard not to come off as entitled with arguments like that.
Ganondorf was one of my secondaries in Melee and I liked playing as him. But I still wanted him to be more like Ganondorf.
He didn't use Warlock punch he punched a projectile to make explode forward. If we got for his neutral B that would be much better.
Come to think of it, a Ganondorf boss fight in the Zelda series where he just uses his bare hands (maybe magically charged but whatever) against Link's sword would be a thousand kinds of badass.
Link's sword is the Master Sword which is literally the only thing that can Kill Ganon... why in heck would Ganon ever use his bare hands (magically infused or not) to touch the sword. Or even put his body anywhere near the sword intentionally?
Ghirahim is able to block the True Master Sword with his hands by surrounding them in intense dark energy, and he doesn't have even half the power Ganondorf has.
Ghirahim is literally made of metal; he's
I don't know why this keeps on being brought up, as if I'm not aware and didn't explicitly mention it.
The argument isn't that every single move has to be drawn from the source material and they can't take any liberties with them. That his grabs, throws, A-attacks, all of them need to be based on an attack or animation in the Zelda games!
No. Bowser Jr uses the Clown Car in all his boss fights in New Super Mario Bros U, which came out well before Smash 4, and used it in many other appearances before that. The trend of him using it more didn't start with Smash 4.
EXACTLY! Thank you
Any validity your argument may have had following this video was wiped out right here. If you're going for this type of "respectful, non-insulting logical approach", you're better off arguing on the GameFAQs forums.
*Ahem*
No one said Wrestler Bowser was canon. Heck, the most he's done wrestling-wise is punch people. If ANYTHING, it's been said that it fits his personality, which is entirely true. The dude goes about his entire day like he was some sort of WWE Superstar.
Hey look, I can post SourceGaming articles too:
Since when was Roy depicted as a hot-blooded shounen hero in Smash? Is it because he uses fire? He uses Fire in The Binding Blade, too. Nothing about his personality comes out in his fighting style in Smash, so there's no contradiction. All we get out of him is that he will protect his loved ones no matter what. Big deal, Marth feels does the same in FE.
Impossible to please? As if. In this thread, people are fairly easy to please. Just do one thing, and it's not hard: base Ganondorf's moveset on his canon abilities. That's it. It has nothing to do with Roy, ZSS, Link, Bowser, Ness, Mario or whatever character you try to throw in to support your point.
Link's moves in Brawl were canon, but he still sucked. Your point? A character's moves being canon has nothing to do with how poorly they were balanced for gameplay. Ganondorf has never been particularly good in any Smash game he's been in. We just hope that he gets a canon moveset and is actually balanced well.
That would be cool if he were so confident in his power than he feels he could take you out unarmed. But then once he realizes how screwed he is, he arms up with blades, a trident, or magical prowess. Heck, if he pulled out his entire arsenal, that'd be cool.
Making many assumptions here. You don't know how the Triforce of Power works. Also, using Magic or a Sword isn't a sign of cowardice. At that rate, Link ought to be charging in with nothing but his fists because he's not a coward who hides behind swords. The Triforce of Courage demands it!
Name one that isn't F-Zero where the canon was directly influenced by Smash. And no, Ganondorf punching in TWW or TP does not count either.
Why would she bash someone with that? It's like asking why Link didn't throw his Ocarina at people. Aside from Villager using regular tools as weapons, Sheik's Harp isn't a weapon. It has no real combat capabilities as the songs don't work like that. If you want the Harp as a weapon, play Hyrule Warriors. The taunt thing is a valid point, however, it isn't one new to me. Back when Brawl first revealed that each character had 3 taunts, I thought for sure the the harp would be one of Sheik's.
I liked the part where you casually overlooked Demise because it would hurt your argument. You know, Demise? Ganondorf's Progenitor?
Yeah, let's just wait and see how the fans react if that new shoulder bash turns out to be less useful than his old tripper, hm?Any validity your argument may have had following this video was wiped out right here. If you're going for this type of "respectful, non-insulting logical approach", you're better off arguing on the GameFAQs forums.
*Ahem*
Well, you almost had a point with that. But there's also this thing where Corrin, Bayonetta, Cloud, Link, Shulk, Ryu, & Robin are all impeccably, and successfully designed to be closely related to how they were in their games. And yet, EVERYTHING those characters got were leagues harder to implement than making Ganondorf resemble his canon self. In Smash Ultimate, they even gave Ryu an auto-turn mechanic like in Street Fighter.
Try again.
No one said Wrestler Bowser was canon. Heck, the most he's done wrestling-wise is punch people. If ANYTHING, it's been said that it fits his personality, which is entirely true. The dude goes about his entire day like he was some sort of WWE Superstar.
Also, who cares if a certain version of that character is your character? That doesn't make them canon. Melee treated Bowser like he was Godzilla. Pro-tip, he isn't Godzilla. Also, Smash 4 Link is canon to Twilight Princess. But Smash Ultimate isn't using Twilight Princess Link anymore, and personally I think if he was used again, it would've been overkill. If you can't accept that your favorite version of Link is being replaced by another person's favorite version of Link, that's your problem. There's no issue with canon on that point. It's all personal preference.
And just for the record, my favorite version of Link is Young Link. I lost him 10 years ago when Brawl came out. I got over it. But Ultimate has brought him back, so in a way I was rewarded for my patience.
Hey look, I can post SourceGaming articles too:
Wario, Part 1
Wario, Part 2
Had to address this because Smash Wario is actually accurate to his Japanese portrayal. Once I learned this, I stopped being upset about why Wario was treated the way he is in Smash. Western Wario wasn't Japanese Wario. There isn't a difference anymore because WarioWare synchronized the Wario's of both regions.
Since when was Roy depicted as a hot-blooded shounen hero in Smash? Is it because he uses fire? He uses Fire in The Binding Blade, too. Nothing about his personality comes out in his fighting style in Smash, so there's no contradiction. All we get out of him is that he will protect his loved ones no matter what. Big deal, Marth feels does the same in FE.
Have you read the Metroid manga? She's not a martial artist, but I can easily see why Sakurai made her a certain way. Though, I sort of wish he had gone with a more military-based design with ZSS as opposed a martial arts style, but that's neither here nor there. Regardless, in a vacuum (where you only consider ZSS by herself and not in comparison to normal Samus), ZSS is completely fine. In the Metroid series, she was specifically designed to be less capable than when she had her armor on.
Being less capable means that she had no real moves to borrow from. Therefore, Sakurai had to make up moves for her just like he did for Fox, Falco, Wolf, Captain Falcon, Zelda, and so forth. It's only problematic when ZSS is compared to regular Samus. Why is regular Samus slower than ZSS? The answer: game balance. Although, Smash Ultimate may correct that. It's too soon to tell.
Impossible to please? As if. In this thread, people are fairly easy to please. Just do one thing, and it's not hard: base Ganondorf's moveset on his canon abilities. That's it. It has nothing to do with Roy, ZSS, Link, Bowser, Ness, Mario or whatever character you try to throw in to support your point.
The only reason why Ganondorf has such a heated discussion topic like this, and is quite widespread, is because NO ONE (other than you, it seems) WANTS HIM LIKE THIS.
Here's a challenge for you: go and watch a bunch of Smash Ultimate Reaction videos. Please count how many times someone points out that finally Ganondorf is using a sword (given that they actually notice it. Not everyone does I'm afraid). Heck, you could probably do a quick Google search of people requesting him to use a sword and you will end up with a lot of results.
Link's moves in Brawl were canon, but he still sucked. Your point? A character's moves being canon has nothing to do with how poorly they were balanced for gameplay. Ganondorf has never been particularly good in any Smash game he's been in. We just hope that he gets a canon moveset and is actually balanced well.
On the point of correlating a canon moveset with viability, I'd just like to state: Correlation does not imply causation. I'm a Ganondorf player. I want his canon moveset. If he's bad, fine. He's been bad the last two games, it hasn't stopped me from using him before and it won't now. I just want him to be given the same proper representation that all the Sm4sh characters got.
As someone who isn't a Samus player (I use her in Sm4sh once in a while, but I'm only decent), and I'm not even happy that Samus (who should be way more powerful than ZSS, canon-wise) has been poorly balanced two games in a row (and was considered bad in SSB64, to boot). If Samus was actually good at doing any of the things she does, everyone would be happy. I feel it's less of a canon issue, though, and more of a "why does this other version of Samus get all the attention and good balancing and the one I use doesn't?" There is a strange bias towards ZSS in both Brawl and Sm4sh (Zelda's been in Sheik's shadow since Melee), and we're hoping Ultimate corrects that.
Also, no one likes poor game balance so we hope they stay clear of that, REGARDLESS of who it's for.
That would be cool if he were so confident in his power than he feels he could take you out unarmed. But then once he realizes how screwed he is, he arms up with blades, a trident, or magical prowess. Heck, if he pulled out his entire arsenal, that'd be cool.
Making many assumptions here. You don't know how the Triforce of Power works. Also, using Magic or a Sword isn't a sign of cowardice. At that rate, Link ought to be charging in with nothing but his fists because he's not a coward who hides behind swords. The Triforce of Courage demands it!
Your own logic defeats itself, I'm afraid.
Name one that isn't F-Zero where the canon was directly influenced by Smash. And no, Ganondorf punching in TWW or TP does not count either.
Why would she bash someone with that? It's like asking why Link didn't throw his Ocarina at people. Aside from Villager using regular tools as weapons, Sheik's Harp isn't a weapon. It has no real combat capabilities as the songs don't work like that. If you want the Harp as a weapon, play Hyrule Warriors. The taunt thing is a valid point, however, it isn't one new to me. Back when Brawl first revealed that each character had 3 taunts, I thought for sure the the harp would be one of Sheik's.
Needless to say, it wasn't. Link never pulled an instrument out for any one his taunts either. (SSB64 and Melee. Seriously, what the heck are those taunts?)
But do you know what WAS used in a taunt? Ganondorf's sword! Ooh, we just went full circle, son!
I liked the part where you casually overlooked Demise because it would hurt your argument. You know, Demise? Ganondorf's Progenitor?
He used a sword too, you know. His sword was also Ghirahim. Ghirahim was made of metal. Fun fact, metal blocks metal. As Rizen and _Ganondorf_ already pointed out.
Another way to counter your point about Ghirahim: he stopped using his hands when he got serious. So even Ghirahim pulled out his own blades when he really wanted to kill his foe... that sounds an awful lot like what I've shown to be the case with Ganondorf.
Effectiveness has nothing to do with it. It's a beloved signature move finally being re-used by its original character. If it launches like any other dash attack then hopefully it can kill at higher percents. Otherwise, who cares? We're still going to use it.
And who exactly is the judge for Smash not being a serious fight? You? Last I checked every other character is taking it seriously, including Ridley. Using Smash lore, if Ganondorf didn't take it seriously, he'd get wrecked at every turn. He's not immune to damage here, and he knows it. He has to fight smart and seriously if he is to succeed in the Smash world, lest he let creatures like Jigglypuff beat him.
Other than the fact that both of her missiles can't kill at percentages higher than 200, her fsmash hitboxes are terrible, up-smash often fails to work, jab can't connect into itself, no kill throws, average speed, average strength, too slow in the air to have decent air combos, and her utilt is a kill move yet the meteor effect makes it easy to survive.
Wait a minute! Does the dodge staling mechanic apply to tech rolls too? How else did Ganondorf get that dtilt KO on Inkling even though she teched away?I found this cool highlight video for Ganondorf from various Ultimate demo plays.
I'm honestly really excited for Smash Ultimate Ganon based on how much faster he is now and the powerful long reaching smashes. But I still hope they buff him more
