A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[meleebrawler]

Ganondorf in his boss fights has always moved very slow, or basically not at all in OOT. Heck, that version's attacks were also very slow & exploitable; the rest at least could attack quickly once they got in range. Twilight Ganondorf deserves special mention for his top running speed being pretty much identical to his appearances in Smash.

 

[Idon]

I don't know, while Fierce Deity is a pretty cool concept, as it basically is supossed to represent the wrath and bitterness of all the suffering caused by Majora, it's execution was actually not all that special when you take all the lore away, to warrant the hype for it.

I mean just look at the best implementation of Fierce Deity --------> Hyrule warriors. Fierce Deity Link is nothing else than a beefed, buffed and speed up version of Master sword Link and some unique asthetics and flashier specials to go along with it. His only real claim to fame in canon, is being able to shoot Sword laser's against Bosses, that pierce any sort of invulnerable State and do a crap ton of damage to boot, but that's it.............

So how would that make for an interesting character? The only thing I could possibly think of to be faithful, is give him a neutral special like Cloud but also give it the properties of bayo's N-b to be used after every other move but stronger and maybe just a single projectile, instead of repeated weak fire?

I don't know about you, but in a franchise, where projectile chars already invalidated about half the cast most of the time, I don't want to be facing another broken mess like that. And yeah it's pretty likely that Sakurai would implement him like that, since he didn't care at all, about balancing the majority of Dlc chars at the end of Smash4, if the fact that Ganon didn't have any possible followup after failed Tech Flame choke, despite suffering a great deal against those Dlc characters, was any indication of that matter.

Also if we started implementing chars like that, what would come next; Shadow with Chaos Control? Oni Akuma? Shadow Mewtoo? I'm sure that People could think of many more examples of dark edgy characters with over powered attributes and movesets.

Yeah Fierce Deity is mostly cool as a concept and because HW souped him up on steroids- not notable enough to be his own thing, but definitely cool enough to be tied to Young Link in a way. I'd never actually put him in as his own thing since he's like the Giga Mac to Young Link. HW FDLink is actually pretty neat though in how they executed it because they used Link's Biggoron Sword/Fairy Sword/Stick dual handed style for most of his animations so that's fun.

Personally, were I to try to implement a non-broken non-Final Smash specific FDLink, I would try to do something similar with HW with YLink being mostly the same except his DSmash being the spin attack and his grounded up B would be him putting on the mask. Basically YLink would play essentially the same except have a meter that charges whenever he gets hits and decreases when he gets hit. When he has max meter, he can put on the mask and transform for a short while into FDLink.

In the interest of keeping Balance, he'd be mostly the same except he has a long double handed sword, his arrows would be the stabby sword beam and the boomerang would be the slicing sword beam and for the bomb, I dunno, replace it with an acrobatic flip into a slash ala ZSS to give him more recovery options?

This is just off the top of my head so don't expect it to be perfect, it's just a concept.

 

[Boartobewild]

Ganondorf in his boss fights has always moved very slow, or basically not at all in OOT. Heck, that version's attacks were also very slow & exploitable; the rest at least could attack quickly once they got in range. Twilight Ganondorf deserves special mention for his top running speed being pretty much identical to his appearances in Smash.

And what about Wind waker? The one version everyone calls fat, yet flipped and jumped around like a freaking Ninja? And again we're talking about Demon king Ganon in Oot, a hulking 6m(~19ft) beast that was standing on hoves, how would you expect that to move fast? As for Tp Ganon he may have had a slow strut during his final sword fight most of the time, but when it came to attacking Link he "suddenly" gained a burst of mobility that pretty much left Link no chance but to block, or very small window to back/side jump.

Also the most important factor that gets overlooked in Smash, is his canon jump hight. Dude can jump at least a dozen times as high and far as his own size, which combined with the fact he clearly knows levitation magic should net him one of the best recoveries in the game if we were going by canon.

 

[meleebrawler]

And what about Wind waker? The one version everyone calls fat, yet flipped and jumped around like a freaking Ninja? And again we're talking about Demon king Ganon in Oot, a hulking 6m(~19ft) beast that was standing on hoves, how would you expect that to move fast? As for Tp Ganon he may have had a slow strut during his final sword fight most of the time, but when it came to attacking Link he "suddenly" gained a burst of mobility that pretty much left Link no chance but to block, or very small window to back/side jump.

Also the most important factor that gets overlooked in Smash, is his canon jump hight. Dude can jump at least a dozen times as high and far as his own size, which combined with the fact he clearly knows levitation magic should net him one of the best recoveries in the game if we were going by canon.

I only talk about human Ganondorf, as that's what we have in Smash. The one in OOT just floats in place. WW Ganondorf does have bursts of mobility when evading attacks, but still walks to you very slowly. Smash Ganondorf also has burst mobility in Flame Choke and Wizkick.

 

[Boartobewild]

I only talk about human Ganondorf, as that's what we have in Smash. The one in OOT just floats in place. WW Ganondorf does have bursts of mobility when evading attacks, but still walks to you very slowly. Smash Ganondorf also has burst mobility in Flame Choke and Wizkick.

Yeah but just because he's moving slow until he attacks doesn't mean he's slow(Ganon's just being a cocky prick that underestimates Link and doesn't think that he has to give it his all) as I have undoubtedley proven by now.

I mean think about it this way, by your logic every Rpg-turn based character would have to be slow as molasses, like all Pokemon, every Fire-emblem character and Cloud most of all, just bc they spend the majority of game/battle sequences standing there and taking hits, until they also decide to attack?!?!

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah but just because he's moving slow until he attacks doesn't mean he's slow(Ganon's just being a cocky prick that underestimates Link and doesn't think that he has to give it his all) as I have undoubtedley proven by now.

I mean think about it this way, by your logic every Rpg-turn based character would have to be slow as molasses, like all Pokemon, every Fire-emblem character and Cloud most of all, just bc they spend the majority of game/battle sequences standing there and taking hits, until they also decide to attack?!?!

Those are just animation limitations, not real movement. If Ganondorf is cocky and underestimates Link, why doesn't he do that to everyone? Artificially limit himself to make things more entertaining for him?

 

[Boartobewild]

Those are just animation limitations, not real movement. If Ganondorf is cocky and underestimates Link, why doesn't he do that to everyone? Artificially limit himself to make things more entertaining for him?

Do you really want to hear my interpretation of his character? In my opinion he's just an unfortunate case of a destined/cursed( by demise and the godesses both) prodigy, that's misunderstood ( at least after Oot, where he was specifically groomed by the Witches to take over the world and fulfil his fate), since he realized he's just part of a game/ploy of the godesses and is pretty much destined to lose, this becomes the most apparent in windwaker, which is the only time we have seen Ganondorf after being defeated/sealed and consequently being more wise to what's going on( similair to Sans from Undertale, who witnesses or is more aware of all time lines and so on)

When it comes to the Hero defeated(not killed, unless the japanese Text says otherwise) time-line,
I don't think we can speak of Ganondorf any longer, since I have the feeling that Demise after obtaining the full Triforce, becomes what we have come to known as his Pig-form/state ->Ganon( which has more Symbolism and meaning behind it than people realize) takes Ganondorf's body over like a vessel and supresses his presence and reason mostly, since nothing really points to Ganondorf's ambition( the one he stated in Windwaker) and Demise's being the same( creating the Dark world and ruling the world with Monsters), which is the most noticable in Botw where Ganon is simply what Demise promised, an incarnation of his rage/wrath.

Now you are prob wondering, how the hell are the godesses to blame for this? Simple, remember the line: where Ww ganondorf tells Link in all caps:" THE GODS HAVE ABANDONED YOU!" and he's right, bc if Botw has shown us anything, it's that every Princess Zelda, consequently the incarnation of the godess Hylia( which represents the unity of all 3 godesses) posseses the capability to seal Demise/Ganon with her royal/godly power as a Fail-safe, so even if Link wasn't present or incapable of stopping Ganon(like in Botw's case) y couldn't Zelda just seal him? ( Even the first incaranation of Hylia, Skyward sword Zelda could do so, who didn't have royal blood but prob started the royal blood line!)

Flooding the whole world was just overkill(literally!!!) and was most likely a nod to the biblical story; the arc of Noah, and believe me that's far from the only inspiration and relation of Loz to Christianity, there's much,much more if you care to look for it
( stone tower temple= tower of bable, anyone?) So as you can see the godesses are far from innocent and as righteous as they want to make us believe.

But maybe you want to tell me that they had no other option or choice in the matter.....
Well how do you explain Tp Ganondorf suddenly being bestowed with the Triforce of Power, shortly before being executed, within the timeline,where he was caught/stopped before entering the sacred realm? I mean the only other explaination I could think of would be that his meddling within Oot, has caused some kind of overlaping time effect or that it's just one of Demise's powers that makes him omnipresent/felt across all timelines. There is however one line of dialog that points to this being the Goddesses doing/fault. Just after Ruto or whatever Sage telepathicly rammed the holy execution blade in Ganon, the Triforce of Power appears on his left hand, and upon witnessing this along with Ganon breaking free, they say: "By some DIVINE PRANK, the Triforce of Power appeared on Ganon, who broke free."

Also, if Ganon really was undoubtedley and inexcusable evil, why didn't he just kill all the people in Kakariko or Windfall island right after taking over/rising to power who are almost next to his base of operations? Why doesn't he do a better job of stopping Link, but often times ends up helping him along, in his quests on multiple occacions? Quite simple, he only cares about obtaining the triforce and fulfilling his wish, being just and giving the Gerudo the bless-ing/ed wind which they seemed to deny them for no good reason. ( unless Aonuma finally wants to make the zelda game, that explores the factions/sides of the big war for the sacred realm/triforce, it's about damn time!).

There's even more to this, I could do about 3 20min videos about it, if I had the equipment.

Oh yeah almost forgot, why does he not use his full unbridled strength/capabilities, like his sword, trident or all of his magic abilities like Shapeshifting/ levitation/weather control/ body possesion and so on and so forth in Smash?

Besides balancing issues, beats ****ing me, you would have to ask Daddy Sakurai, how new dlc Characters like Corrin, Cloud and not to mention our dear Bayonetta, were created with their full Potential and even beyond, in mind?!

Why do you think we're having discussions to this day of wanting a better represantation of Ganon, but obv no broken moveset ( despite the fact, that at least canon-wise, Ganon is still the strongest character without a doubt) but still care for his admittedly awesome, but mostly inaccurate and outdated Falcondorf-kit?

 

[Deleted member]

I don't know why everyone is arguing about this. I for one finally feel content with how Ganondorf is represented in Smash Bros. I've said this before, but I also think the moveset he was given better fits his OoT incarnation than TP, so I think the revert back to that form was a good move, and adding the sword attacks finally gives him that umph he needed to feel more true to his character.

And yes, I think it is clearly established in the Zelda games that Ganondorf knows how to wield a sword, despite us not seeing him use a sword in his human form in OoT.

 

[Idon]

Compare it to Project Ganondorf if you want to see what all the hubbub is for a canon Ganon.

 

[Erimir]

While those Project Ganondorf movesets look a little over-complicated, definitely not as polished as the Nintendo team would get them, and clearly they couldn't decide what to cut so they added new inputs... they are still miles better in terms of representing Ganondorf from the games, Jesus. Sword moves from Twilight Princess with a few bits of other versions, even Wizard's Foot from Falcondorf, etc. Ocarina of Time Ganondorf being a dark sorcerer, with some additional moves drawn from Agahnim and Phantom Ganondorf. There's tons of potential there, and most is drawn from actual boss battles.

And yet they didn't even utilize all of his moveset potential! Beast Ganon from Legend of Zelda (NES), A Link to the Past, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, A Link Between Worlds could have a very different moveset as well, utilizing a trident (including as a thrown weapon), blazing bats, teleportation or invisibility, shockwaves, etc.

Yet what do we have? Falcondorf utilizing one canon kick for f-tilt, a choke from a cutscene... and smash attacks using a sword he never used in the games with animations he never used in the games. Sure, the sword is an improvement! But, still... compared to those movesets...

I have no doubt Sakurai and company could come up with something better than those Project Ganondorf movesets if they were starting from scratch. But they won't. Basically, it's all about keeping Melee Falcondorf fans from freaking out. Quillion's had 3 Smash games with Falcondorf, but still can't stand the idea of Zelda fans (fans of, you know, the actual Ganondorf) getting a version that resembles him.

(But Black Shadow or some alternate choice as a receptacle for the Falcondorf moveset is still a good idea, IMO, since I do understand the desire to keep Falcondorf fans happy, and I do enjoy the moveset.)

 

[Donkey_Butter]

Someone may of already brought this up, but I didn’t wanna read 15 pages of paragraphs looking for it but isn’t Ganon only able to be defeated by the Master Sword? I understand that everyones just pushing eachother off the stage like it’s a Mario Party minigame, but I find it odd seeing Ganon being defeated by someone other than Link in smash.

Note: I’ve only played a few Zelda games including Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, so I don’t know too much about the series.

 

[Idon]

Someone may of already brought this up, but I didn’t wanna read 15 pages of paragraphs looking for it but isn’t Ganon only able to be defeated by the Master Sword? I understand that everyones just pushing eachother off the stage like it’s a Mario Party minigame, but I find it odd seeing Ganon being defeated by someone other than Link in smash.

Note: I’ve only played a few Zelda games including Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, so I don’t know too much about the series.

Obviously we are going to have to make some creative liberties in a fighting game.
Or else Link won't be able to jump.

 

[Boartobewild]

Someone may of already brought this up, but I didn’t wanna read 15 pages of paragraphs looking for it but isn’t Ganon only able to be defeated by the Master Sword? I understand that everyones just pushing eachother off the stage like it’s a Mario Party minigame, but I find it odd seeing Ganon being defeated by someone other than Link in smash.

Note: I’ve only played a few Zelda games including Wind Waker and Twilight Princess, so I don’t know too much about the series.

Yeah I think we did bring this point up, that he can only really be injured/ contested with holy weapons, which is also the main reason(but far from only one) why Ganon has been picked/singeled out as the undoubtedley strongest canon character, at least when put up against the rest of the cast. ( say what you will about death battle, I also don't fully agree with their reasoning all the time, but their death battle of Ganon vs Bowser illustrates this perfectly IMHO and their content is at least fun to watch most of the time)

But as Idon pointed out, you ofc have to balance this for a fighting Game and most of Ganon's capabilities, like shape shifting, body possesion, monster-creation/summoning/revival/manipulation, weather/enviroment control and deadly curses are not really applicable to this kind of game. Nevertheless since we have characters like Corrin, Cloud and most of all Bayonetta that appear/act, at the very least as capable, if not even more so than their respective games, ganon's lack of canon move for 3 games becomes pretty noticable.

Though much like @Eremir pointed out, it's kind of baffling that he doesn't at least have his levitation magic in form of a float, a way of reflecting projectiles just like with deadman's Volley ( Energy tennis, Ganon's favorite past time) much like Mario's cape move, and maybe also include teleportation, somewhere in there as well? Either like Mewtoo or maybe even Meta knight's dimension cape. Not to mention a usable dark/electric energy/projectile type of attack, which is prob the favorite contender for replacing warlock punch. These are all as you can see, the kind of moves he would need and deserve to finally leave bottom tier, so it shouldn't be hard to see, why people even now are still sort of dissapointed with still having a semi-falcondorf, despite looking more fierce and strong than ever! Don't even take my word for it, just look at the current poll results right now, that should tell you everything most fans ( though not nearly all of them, these threads will likely get even more busy at launch) think and feel

If I am being honest, all I would ask for with this iteration of Ganon to be happy, would be better jump hight and air speed, as that is something he needs and does have in the Loz games, replacing Volcano kick with a usable faster anti-air and combo tool( even faster and weaker old u-smash maybe?), being able to act/dbjump/upb after using side b in the air, seriously even fox and most insultingly lil'mac can do so now?!?! Speaking of Little Mac, how come a scrawny boxer, who's games revolve around recognising patterns and mistakes of stronger opponents and then elegantly dodging, weaving through their strikes and countering, has more super armor attacks/moves, than Ganon who is actually INVINCIBLE/INTAGIBLE to anything but holy weapons?! Like for example Warlock punch, with it's current( sm4sh) properties is useless, would be a different story if you were intangible however. Than there's moves that had brief invincibility like Dash attack in Sm4ah on startup, and airial wizard kick on startup in brawl, but are suddenly gone? Like seriously, why? >_>

 

[NintendoKnight]

Yeah I think we did bring this point up, that he can only really be injured/ contested with holy weapons, which is also the main reason(but far from only one) why Ganon has been picked/singeled out as the undoubtedley strongest canon character, at least when put up against the rest of the cast. ( say what you will about death battle, I also don't fully agree with their reasoning all the time, but their death battle of Ganon vs Bowser illustrates this perfectly IMHO and their content is at least fun to watch most of the time)

But as Idon pointed out, you ofc have to balance this for a fighting Game and most of Ganon's capabilities, like shape shifting, body possesion, monster-creation/summoning/revival/manipulation, weather/enviroment control and deadly curses are not really applicable to this kind of game. Nevertheless since we have characters like Corrin, Cloud and most of all Bayonetta that appear/act, at the very least as capable, if not even more so than their respective games, ganon's lack of canon move for 3 games becomes pretty noticable.

Though much like @Eremir pointed out, it's kind of baffling that he doesn't at least have his levitation magic in form of a float, a way of reflecting projectiles just like with deadman's Volley ( Energy tennis, Ganon's favorite past time) much like Mario's cape move, and maybe also include teleportation, somewhere in there as well? Either like Mewtoo or maybe even Meta knight's dimension cape. Not to mention a usable dark/electric energy/projectile type of attack, which is prob the favorite contender for replacing warlock punch. These are all as you can see, the kind of moves he would need and deserve to finally leave bottom tier, so it shouldn't be hard to see, why people even now are still sort of dissapointed with still having a semi-falcondorf, despite looking more fierce and strong than ever! Don't even take my word for it, just look at the current poll results right now, that should tell you everything most fans ( though not nearly all of them, these threads will likely get even more busy at launch) think and feel

If I am being honest, all I would ask for with this iteration of Ganon to be happy, would be better jump hight and air speed, as that is something he needs and does have in the Loz games, replacing Volcano kick with a usable faster anti-air and combo tool( even faster and weaker old u-smash maybe?), being able to act/dbjump/upb after using side b in the air, seriously even fox and most insultingly lil'mac can do so now?!?! Speaking of Little Mac, how come a scrawny boxer, who's games revolve around recognising patterns and mistakes of stronger opponents and then elegantly dodging, weaving through their strikes and countering, has more super armor attacks/moves, than Ganon who is actually INVINCIBLE/INTAGIBLE to anything but holy weapons?! Like for example Warlock punch, with it's current( sm4sh) properties is useless, would be a different story if you were intangible however. Than there's moves that had brief invincibility like Dash attack in Sm4ah on startup, and airial wizard kick on startup in brawl, but are suddenly gone? Like seriously, why? >_>

Canonically speaking, Ganondorf is one of the most dangerous characters in the whole Smash cast. Only truly able to be beaten by Link, Toon Link, Zelda, potentially Ike or even Pit (goddess blessed weapons, but not evil smiting ones), and maybe even Shulk if he had his endgame Monado (Shulk's current Monado shouldn't even allow him to hurt people, let alone much else).

In regards to raw strength Ganondorf is pretty handily beat out by Donkey Kong, canonically the mightiest character in Smash. DK has comic book levels of strength, no joke. No other character comes even remotely close to his best strength feat. However, DK still couldn't kill Ganondorf even with his strongest attack. Bayonetta's pretty tough, but everything she does uses either black magic or demonic summoning. Dark magic is Ganondorf's forte, and though it could stun him, it has no ability to kill. He's also earned his title as the demon king, meaning Bayonetta's summonings wouldn't work either.

Mewtwo, despite all his psychic power, couldn't hurt Ganondorf due to type advantage. Even though any other move either doesn't work or isn't nearly strong enough to cause injury. This applies to Lucario as well, whom would fight valiantly but fail anyway.

Ness and Lucas, both of whom probably possess similar power to Mewtwo, couldn't get the job done either. Both of these boys only beat their villains while they were on a team with other characters. Even then, the final bosses of their games aren't beaten through direct means. (Giygas gets obliterated by prayer, and the Masked Man lightning bolts himself because of the Franklin Badge).

Shulk using his endgame Monado (as mentioned earlier) might have a chance because of its godlike level of power. However, Shulk hasn't fought any truly powerful enemies without allies. Sure, his visions would give him an edge, but he couldn't stop everything that Ganondorf could do. There were many instances were Shulk was helpless to protect anyone, even himself. Also, I really doubt Shulk has Link's mental sharpness in combat; he's smart, but he probably wouldn't figure out Dead Man's Volley. The truth is he's an engineer mentally, not a warrior.

(As far as the RPG characters go, Cloud is the only one to have beaten his final enemy on his own. And twice at that.)

Honestly if the Smash Universe played by the rules of the universes it borrowed, the moment Ganondorf arrived would be just as bad as Tabuu's Subspace invasion, if not far worse because Tabuu couldn't leave Subspace. The only difference being only 3 characters could actually stop him, as opposed to a 32 character onslaught. This time, everyone else has to sit and watch. Even worse, Ganondorf might force other villainous characters to fight for him. Heck, he could offer them power in exchange for their service and that'd work too. Either way, he's guaranteed Bowser as a minion, which also gets him Jr. Wolf allied himself with Andross, so it's possible he'd help out Ganondorf.

Dedede would get mind-controlled... again. Kirby would knock some sense into him though. Ridley would probably be the most difficult villain to convince, but whatever he would want I'm sure Ganondorf could give. Mewtwo probably wouldn't help him though. Ganondorf is human (which Mewtwo hates), and it would rather just be left alone.

Geez, this entire scenario would go bad really fast if Ganondorf had full power. It'd hinge entirely upon the Links' and Zelda's success.

 

[Quillion]

While those Project Ganondorf movesets look a little over-complicated, definitely not as polished as the Nintendo team would get them, and clearly they couldn't decide what to cut so they added new inputs... they are still miles better in terms of representing Ganondorf from the games, Jesus. Sword moves from Twilight Princess with a few bits of other versions, even Wizard's Foot from Falcondorf, etc. Ocarina of Time Ganondorf being a dark sorcerer, with some additional moves drawn from Agahnim and Phantom Ganondorf. There's tons of potential there, and most is drawn from actual boss battles.

And yet they didn't even utilize all of his moveset potential! Beast Ganon from Legend of Zelda (NES), A Link to the Past, Oracle of Seasons/Ages, A Link Between Worlds could have a very different moveset as well, utilizing a trident (including as a thrown weapon), blazing bats, teleportation or invisibility, shockwaves, etc.

Yet what do we have? Falcondorf utilizing one canon kick for f-tilt, a choke from a cutscene... and smash attacks using a sword he never used in the games with animations he never used in the games. Sure, the sword is an improvement! But, still... compared to those movesets...

I have no doubt Sakurai and company could come up with something better than those Project Ganondorf movesets if they were starting from scratch. But they won't. Basically, it's all about keeping Melee Falcondorf fans from freaking out. Quillion's had 3 Smash games with Falcondorf, but still can't stand the idea of Zelda fans (fans of, you know, the actual Ganondorf) getting a version that resembles him.

(But Black Shadow or some alternate choice as a receptacle for the Falcondorf moveset is still a good idea, IMO, since I do understand the desire to keep Falcondorf fans happy, and I do enjoy the moveset.)

Again, you just want Ganondorf the way YOU want him. You may put up a veneer of wanting him to be "truer to the games", but it's still just your personal preference.

Here's part of a post I made on another thread.

So much whining about Ganondorf in this thread, as expected.

Have any of you people realized that Ganondorf represents the qualities of a Zelda boss? He is slow and imposing, can kill you in a few hits, and is built around punishing your mistakes.

And even still, his playstyle reflects his character very well. In all of his games, he maniuplates people into making mistakes and capitalizing on them to make himself stronger. Remember when he manipulated Link into giving him what he wanted (the Triforce and Zelda with the Triforce of Wisdom)? Remember when he manipulated Zant into getting the power to let him out of the Twilight Realm? Remember when he lured Link into a false sense of security with the Master Sword, yet revealed that he regained his full power after that?

 

[Erimir]

Again, you just want Ganondorf the way YOU want him.

Sure, I want him the way I want him. But it's not just me. Obviously quite a few people want that otherwise they would've left him as straight Falcondorf instead of adding in the sword smashes, etc.

You may put up a veneer of wanting him to be "truer to the games", but it's still just your personal preference.

It's not a veneer. The claim that Falcondorf isn't true to the games is, well... pretty objective. It's quite hard to argue that 1. Falcondorf isn't less accurate than pretty much every other character and 2. there's tons of potential for a more accurate Ganondorf moveset. Ok, it is just a "personal preference" of mine that he be "truer to the games", though, sure. I value accuracy to the Zelda canon much more than I value continuity with previous Smash games. And that's a personal preference.

But it's your attempts to argue that "actually, Falcondorf is just as true to the games, if not more" which are just a pathetic veneer.

You really just want Falcondorf to stay because you like the moveset and you don't care about how "accurate" it is. Which is fine! That's a valid preference to have. I can't tell you that you have to be more of a fan of Zelda Ganondorf than Smash Ganondorf. You personally prefer Falcondorf continuity to Ganondorf accuracy, but you're unwilling to just say so! So you come up with ludicrous arguments that actually Falcondorf is accurate like "one time, Ganondorf threw a punch in a cutscene with an animation that doesn't resemble his Smash moves, this shows that they are trying to make Smash Ganondorf fit with canon." I would have no beef if you would just admit "I want Smash continuity and I don't care much about accuracy to Zelda games". I can't argue with that, that's just a personal preference, there's nothing to argue about.

You know, if Wizard's Foot, Warlock Punch or Dark Dive show up in Ganondorf's next Zelda boss fight, or even Flame Choke (as a rush forward to grab Link), I would concede that they are trying to make Zelda canon Ganondorf match Falcondorf. But apparently being slow and powerful is all it takes for Ganondorf to be accurate in your view. Well, I guess it would be fine if he had Dedede's or pre-Smash 4 Bowser's movesets. They're slow and imposing and can kill you with a few hits Like I said, if Dracula from Castlevania were a Falcon clone, you'd be arguing that Vampiric Fist is only fitting for the King of the Night. Beating you with his bare fists only demonstrates his brute vampiric strength!

Check out those Project Ganondorf movesets and try to argue that they're not really more fitting. I guess you'll argue that they're not slow enough or something. Ganondorf needs to be so powerful he beats you with his bare fists... yet he never does that in the Zelda games! Despite it being a totally fitting depiction of the character in your view, apparently the Zelda creators have never agreed with you that that is a fitting way for him to behave. Weird how that is, eh?

 

[Peeton]

Dang, everybody is so angry! I just want his Melee run animation and he’ll be perfect! At least in my eyes.

 

[Boartobewild]

Again, you just want Ganondorf the way YOU want him. You may put up a veneer of wanting him to be "truer to the games", but it's still just your personal preference.

Here's part of a post I made on another thread.

Uuuuuuuuhhhhhhhh, I don't know how exactly to break this to you, but have you even looked at the poll votes cast in this very thread thus far?!?!

You without a doubt, belong to the (CURRENTLY) 8,8% (not even 10%, but let's round it up to make it fair) of people who are completly satisfied with Ganon's recent/present semi-falcondorf portrayal, and apparently don't want it any other way/ any more change!!!

So now contrast that with the 30% people who "like the new ganon, but wouldn't mind a revamp" another 30% who; "hate the new ganon, and think revamp is long overdue" and 20% which also; "like the new ganon,but would still prefer a revamp"( which is the camp I fall/belong to).

So how in all 7 hells can you pretend or proclaim to be in the majority of the general opinion of not wanting Ganon changed, when you have at least a opposing 50%, who would rather see Ganon changed/canonised and let's just add the other 30%, considering they just don't think it's very likely/and try to accept this new Ganon, but at least don't have any issues with having Ganon changed/ adapted better to his canon like the last batch of dlc characters!

This sort of blatant ignorance is just baffling, it's actually quite amazing/troubling. ;3

 

[Rizen]

Dang, everybody is so angry! I just want his Melee run animation and he’ll be perfect! At least in my eyes.

ANGRY! ...jk, I've largely been zoning out this conversation tbt.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have an extreme indifference to strict adherence to canon, because of one very BIG example of misguided attempts to follow it resulting in a beloved character repeatedly failing to make the cut. Take a wild guess as to who.

Ultimate Ganondorf's sword is probably more intended to please old Melee players teased by it than to make Ganondorf more canon, since it is well documented that he never used such a weapon in OOT. And one look at what they did with the Ice Climbers shows that at the end of the day, characters are what the devs want them to be, not the players.

 

[Boartobewild]

Double post, please delete.

 

[Boartobewild]

I have an extreme indifference to strict adherence to canon, because of one very BIG example of misguided attempts to follow it resulting in a beloved character repeatedly failing to make the cut. Take a wild guess as to who.

Ultimate Ganondorf's sword is probably more intended to please old Melee players teased by it than to make Ganondorf more canon, since it is well documented that he never used such a weapon in OOT. And one look at what they did with the Ice Climbers shows that at the end of the day, characters are what the devs want them to be, not the players.

I think we made it pretty clear by now, that we don't/can't expect Ganon to be 100% faithful to his games. But the fact of the matter is, he's not even 50% there, and expecting at least one iconic move that's something anyone can recognise and has been used across multiple games( like Deadman's volley, floating, reflect/bounce,teleport) and is not something as obscure/one time occurence, as the Sparta kick, the Flame choke( which was more of a palmthrust anyway) the skull crusher( Fair, which should be a shockwave, earthquake attack actually!) etc, should not be too much to ask at this point!!!

Especially after the way the last batch of Dlc characters got adapted/represented! I mean it even took them 4 games to include Ganon's preferred weapon/method of choice into his moveset!That we have to celebrate this, is actually pretty sad, now that I think about it.

As for what sort of character you could be talking about, beats me honestly. Unless you were so kind and at least disclose which series or what sort of kind (s)he's from, that could be anything from 3rd party series, up to very obscure characters that would never cross anyone else's mind, if you don't know where to look for. Just about any character that you deem "Important/beloved" might appear random or out of place to others and based on your description, I thought of Ridley and Snake, but those made it in, so unless you're talking about either some kind of Assist Trophy character or Trophy itself, which failed to become a character, I have literally no Idea.

If I had to pick a character though, based upon, who most people have been clamoring for ages, that choice would fall on Geno( btw y are people obsessed with including a soulless cardboard cutout of a rpg character in Smash that mainly features chars oozing personality in most cases) and King K Rool, which Ok if you say so.......If I could choose/pick a villain though, I'd rather have Hades from Kid Icarus uprising, which as unlikely as that sounds, that's a least a character Sakurai conceived himself, if anyone could find a way to put him in, it would be the man himself.

 

[NintendoKnight]

Again, you just want Ganondorf the way YOU want him. You may put up a veneer of wanting him to be "truer to the games", but it's still just your personal preference.

Here's part of a post I made on another thread.

Look, I don't need to argue this point as Erimir already tore that apart.

I will however go against what you stated in that other thread.

So much whining about Ganondorf in this thread, as expected.

Have any of you people realized that Ganondorf represents the qualities of a Zelda boss? He is slow and imposing, can kill you in a few hits, and is built around punishing your mistakes.

And even still, his playstyle reflects his character very well. In all of his games, he maniuplates people into making mistakes and capitalizing on them to make himself stronger. Remember when he manipulated Link into giving him what he wanted (the Triforce and Zelda with the Triforce of Wisdom)? Remember when he manipulated Zant into getting the power to let him out of the Twilight Realm? Remember when he lured Link into a false sense of security with the Master Sword, yet revealed that he regained his full power after that?

You start off this statement quite rudely, as expected.

First off, I have to ask you something... Have you EVER played a single Zelda game in your entire life? Because this statement would suggest that you haven't.

Do you truly believe that all Zelda bosses are so uniform that Smash Ganondorf can represent all of their qualities? (You're also brazenly arguing that Ganondorf is better off representing these "supposed" traits of the LoZ bosses as opposed to his own merits as a character and boss) First off, it's not often in any Zelda game that a boss take you out in a few hits. The tough enemies that are scattered all around the overworld are often more dangerous than most of the bosses damage-wise.

And even then, how many bosses are so slow that Ganondorf needs to represent them with a slow speed? Again have you played any Zelda's? What bosses are slow? They're either very immobile or have very limited forms of movement. When their movement is unrestricted, they tend to go wild.

Spoiler: These guys would like a word with you

To name a few bosses. If you were paying attention, you would've seen that 3 forms of Ganon appeared on that list.

Next on the hit list, starting with the first 3D Zelda—though hints of this system predate OoT—Zelda bosses developed a very systematic nature of battle: boss exposes weak point, Link hits weak point, boss becomes vulnerable, Link assaults the boss, boss regains invulnerability, rinse repeat 3 times, boss dies. Because of this systematic fighting method, almost every boss became the aggressor in the fight against Link, forcing the player to always be on the defense. The bosses aren't punishing Link's mistakes; Link is punishing theirs. This also proves true in every Ganondorf fight. He's not waiting for you to mess up so he can capitalize on that mistake, he's trying to overpower you with a relentless onslaught. He's the aggressor in all his battles, the sheer opposite of how you have to play him in Smash.

Not to mention that in OoT Ganondorf is only vulnerable after you hit him with his own attack. But this means he was attacking first and more frequently. Link literally cannot hurt Ganondorf in OoT if Ganondorf did absolutely nothing.

Also, in regards to Ganondorf's manipulations, he never does them in battle. Ever. Zant, Agahnim, and Ghirahim do, but not Ganondorf.

 

[Idon]

Alright, so taking a quick break from the daily Canon Ganon talk to ask a question.

Did Ganondorf get a new song for his victory theme or is it still the triumphant Zelda melody? I can't find any footage with clear audio of the victory theme at all and I want to know before launch whether to be disappointed that he's kept the same theme or excited if he gets a new one.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think we made it pretty clear by now, that we don't/can't expect Ganon to be 100% faithful to his games. But the fact of the matter is, he's not even 50% there, and expecting at least one iconic move that's something anyone can recognise and has been used across multiple games( like Deadman's volley, floating, reflect/bounce,teleport) and is not something as obscure/one time occurence, as the Sparta kick, the Flame choke( which was more of a palmthrust anyway) the skull crusher( Fair, which should be a shockwave, earthquake attack actually!) etc, should not be too much to ask at this point!!!

Especially after the way the last batch of Dlc characters got adapted/represented! I mean it even took them 4 games to include Ganon's preferred weapon/method of choice into his moveset!That we have to celebrate this, is actually pretty sad, now that I think about it.

As for what sort of character you could be talking about, beats me honestly. Unless you were so kind and at least disclose which series or what sort of kind (s)he's from, that could be anything from 3rd party series, up to very obscure characters that would never cross anyone else's mind, if you don't know where to look for. Just about any character that you deem "Important/beloved" might appear random or out of place to others and based on your description, I thought of Ridley and Snake, but those made it in, so unless you're talking about either some kind of Assist Trophy character or Trophy itself, which failed to become a character, I have literally no Idea.

If I had to pick a character though, based upon, who most people have been clamoring for ages, that choice would fall on Geno( btw y are people obsessed with including a soulless cardboard cutout of a rpg character in Smash that mainly features chars oozing personality in most cases) and King K Rool, which Ok if you say so.......If I could choose/pick a villain though, I'd rather have Hades from Kid Icarus uprising, which as unlikely as that sounds, that's a least a character Sakurai conceived himself, if anyone could find a way to put him in, it would be the man himself.

Yes I was talking about Ridley. He got in NOW of course, but only after they stopped angsting about how shrinking him down would make him less ''faithful'' to his in-game appearances. Theoretically speaking, how would you feel if Ganondorf didn't make it in at all for 4 straight games just because they couldn't make his specific fighting style function in Smash, all in the name of ''faithfulness''?

So I don't give a toss if he stays ''Falcondorf'' for the rest of his days or gets a revamp the way you want him. As long as I still see the supremely arrogant look (or calculating in Twilight's case) and evil laugh I know that I'm playing Ganondorf and love it.

 

[Boartobewild]

Yes I was talking about Ridley. He got in NOW of course, but only after they stopped angsting about how shrinking him down would make him less ''faithful'' to his in-game appearances. Theoretically speaking, how would you feel if Ganondorf didn't make it in at all for 4 straight games just because they couldn't make his specific fighting style function in Smash, all in the name of ''faithfulness''?

So I don't give a toss if he stays ''Falcondorf'' for the rest of his days or gets a revamp the way you want him. As long as I still see the supremely arrogant look (or calculating in Twilight's case) and evil laugh I know that I'm playing Ganondorf and love it.

Yeah, a lot of japanese and especially a bunch of developers within Nintendo, are weird or should I say are behind the times on that front. The weirdest and most baffling stance, Sakurai ever took in my opinion, was him explaining/"justifying" not including a Story/adventure mode in Smash4 with the following reason: " Players will just leak all the cutscenes for people to see"

I prob paused for a good 10 mins, while staring in disbelief at the screen upon hearing/reading that. That would be like rejecting to buy a car with heavily reduced price, just bc you don't happen to like the pattern on the seats!

 

[Erimir]

Yes I was talking about Ridley. He got in NOW of course, but only after they stopped angsting about how shrinking him down would make him less ''faithful'' to his in-game appearances. Theoretically speaking, how would you feel if Ganondorf didn't make it in at all for 4 straight games just because they couldn't make his specific fighting style function in Smash, all in the name of ''faithfulness''?

I would feel like they're complete dumbasses who have no idea what they're doing. Because there's no reason they would be unable to come up with a way to accommodate Ganondorf. He is much easier to adapt than Ridley or even characters like Villager or Duck Hunt.

Because there is a ton of moveset potential for Ganondorf, with options for a moveset based around some combination of magical attacks/projectiles, a sword or a trident. Where needed, they could fill in additional moves with unarmed attacks, either canon, like the Sparta kick, or original. There's nothing wrong with adding in some non-canon moves to fill in gaps in a moveset. Samus has her missiles, charge shot, morph ball, bombs, screw attack, grappling beam, etc. nobody is particularly upset that she need some melee moves to round out her moveset given how many of her staple weapons are covered.

Seriously, some guy working mostly on his own could come up with two movesets that are way more fitting for Ganondorf. There's no reason he can't have a more accurate moveset.

I was a supporter of Ridley, but his size is very different from his moveset. His moves aren't totally drawn from Metroid canon, but it would be ridiculous if he didn't have a mouth-based projectile (fireballs or an energy beam), for example. Would you really want him to be in if he were a Charizard clone?

 

[Idon]

Goddammit, you linked Project Ganondorf again, and now I gotta spend the next hour looking at footage of it.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah, a lot of japanese and especially a bunch of developers within Nintendo, are weird or should I say are behind the times on that front. The weirdest and most baffling stance, Sakurai ever took in my opinion, was him explaining/"justifying" not including a Story/adventure mode in Smash4 with the following reason: " Players will just leak all the cutscenes for people to see"

I prob paused for a good 10 mins, while staring in disbelief at the screen upon hearing/reading that. That would be like rejecting to buy a car with heavily reduced price, just bc you don't happen to like the pattern on the seats!

Well there is some truth in that statement, even if not put so gracefully, regarding fighting game campaigns. If the cutscenes are the only selling point, why waste time playing through them when you can just watch them online and improve at the real meat of the game? Many are just tedious, repetitive slogs otherwise, so you really have to try & make them worth it. Time that could be spent balancing.

 

[TumblrFamous]

Honestly I wish he had Dead Man's Volleyball. If they give us that I'd be happy but for whatever reason we're not going to give him his most iconic move (say what you want about sorcery or swords, he or some derivative of him has always had this in the games).

And why are we saying Falcondorf is truer to Zelda canon? Just because he is big and powerful? The ONLY reason we got Falcondorf and still have him today is 1) They wanted to pad out the roster, saw the Space Tech demo and thought "OK we can probably make this work as quickly as possible" and 2) Sakurai feels fans would be so terribly upset to see old Ganondorf change, which now I'm starting to believe thanks to Quillion

There's barely anything from his games that he does to represent this punching and kicking character bar two or so moves. Sure he is shown to have brute strength, but saying that this current moveset is canon and "the truest to his character" because of that simple reasoning is laughable.

 

[Deleted member]

I will say this: as long as Sakurai is director of Smash Bros., I don't see any chance of a character being completely overhauled. It's simply never happened. As the years have gone on, newcomers to Smash have entered with more accuracy to their source material, while older characters will see a few updates here and there. This is how it's always been with Sakurai at the helm.

Honestly I think newcomers in Brawl and onward have been much truer to their characters, while pre-Brawl, there were a lot of clones and characters not extremely true to source material. Yet Sakurai just doesn't want to overhaul them. That's how it is.

You all are understandably complaining about Ganondorf, but he's not the only victim. It's not even like the moveset of Captain Falcon is true to his series either--so really both of them probably share the unique 'Dragon King' fighting style that has nothing to do with F-Zero or the Legend of Zelda. Again, since this is Sakurai we're talking about, it may be why he's unwilling to overhaul Ganondorf because he wants to preserve that original moveset as much as possible. I'm just speculating here though.

 

[King9999]

I made this old guide a few years ago, looking forward to making one for Ultimate!

 

[Erimir]

Captain Falcon didn't have any moves to use in the first place. There was the character design and the fact that he's a bounty hunter. He could've used the gun he always has holstered (although he didn't have a gun in the original F-Zero artwork, he did in F-Zero X). It's kinda strange that he doesn't even get a taunt or victory animation that uses it.

But aside from that, there's not much to complain about because there's very little to suggest what moves he should have. And Captain Falcon is probably the character that they have most incorporated Smash into canon, with Falcon Punch being a move he uses in the anime, etc.

Ganondorf is a totally different situation, having material for a fully fleshed out moveset for Beast Ganon by A Link to the Past, and for human Ganondorf in his very first appearance in Ocarina of Time. Melee Ganondorf had plenty of stuff to work with, particularly if they were willing to incorporate inspiration from Beast Ganon/Agahnim/Phantom Ganondorf, and if they had held out until Brawl, Wind Waker and Twilight Princess would've added even more (including the possibility of a sword-based moveset). Ganondorf is very clearly not one of the characters that needed most of his moveset to be created from scratch (especially not his special attacks).

I would say there are a few other characters that are similar to Captain Falcon in the sense that they didn't canonically have much material to work with. But Ganondorf is pretty clearly not in that group, making them poor comparisons. Even so, I wouldn't have a problem with Dr. Mario incorporating viruses into his moveset somehow (his forward smash could even work essentially the same and use them, for example) or Sheik getting her harp for something (a taunt or victory pose), or Fox getting something from Star Fox Adventures, etc.

Actually, now that I'm thinking about, Dr. Mario using Fever, Chill and Weird viruses as attacks would be pretty cool. Fever could have a fire effect, Chill a freeze effect and they'd have to pick something or come up with something for Weird (stun or flower most likely). I am totally on board with this idea now.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I made this old guide a few years ago, looking forward to making one for Ultimate!

Honestly, because the dsmash is so much better now, I'm certain more characters will be vulnerable to both hits off choke.

 

[Idon]

Pour one out for lagless USmash though.

 

[King9999]

Honestly, because the dsmash is so much better now, I'm certain more characters will be vulnerable to both hits off choke.

I'm curious if the new D-Smash will be usable against people who tech behind Ganon after the choke.

 

[meleebrawler]

I will say this: as long as Sakurai is director of Smash Bros., I don't see any chance of a character being completely overhauled. It's simply never happened. As the years have gone on, newcomers to Smash have entered with more accuracy to their source material, while older characters will see a few updates here and there. This is how it's always been with Sakurai at the helm.

Honestly I think newcomers in Brawl and onward have been much truer to their characters, while pre-Brawl, there were a lot of clones and characters not extremely true to source material. Yet Sakurai just doesn't want to overhaul them. That's how it is.

You all are understandably complaining about Ganondorf, but he's not the only victim. It's not even like the moveset of Captain Falcon is true to his series either--so really both of them probably share the unique 'Dragon King' fighting style that has nothing to do with F-Zero or the Legend of Zelda. Again, since this is Sakurai we're talking about, it may be why he's unwilling to overhaul Ganondorf because he wants to preserve that original moveset as much as possible. I'm just speculating here though.

Well, hindsight is 20/20 regarding this game in particular with EVERYONE IS HERE. It's a game that is as much about celebrating Smash's history as it is Nintendo's (plus third parties) like it usually was. So naturally completely overhauling a veteran would be historically inaccurate. The most they get are tweaks that bring them up to current standards.

Given comments implying this roster size is unlikely to ever happen again, it stands to reason that a sequel will have to do something somewhat drastic to compensate not being able to match that number of fighters. If ever there was a time to overhaul fighters, that would be it. But chances are it'll be a long, long time before we get there with the advent of DLC making it possible to include popular characters who came about just a bit too late for initial development.

I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say that, whether you're for or against Falcondorf, using canon to argue is dumb. Would you support a lousy moveset just because it was technically accurate? What you should be arguing is the fun factor.

 

[Erimir]

I'm also gonna go out on a limb and say that, whether you're for or against Falcondorf, using canon to argue is dumb. Would you support a lousy moveset just because it was technically accurate? What you should be arguing is the fun factor.

This is a false dichotomy in two ways.

One, the choice isn't Falcondorf vs. lousy canon moveset. There's so much potential for Ganondorf that they could come up with something good and if they needed to, they could still add in something or the other to fill any gaps (for example, Samus's melee attacks are mostly non-canon, yet she still manages to have missiles, charge shot, grapple beam, morph ball, bombs and screw attack). And Ganondorf's moveset has some significant issues as it is. I don't think people would complain that Ganondorf isn't fun anymore if they replaced Warlock Punch with something else.

Two, accuracy and fun factor are not totally separate things. The whole point of Smash (as opposed to Dragon King) is that you have fun playing as your favorite characters. And you only have the experience of playing as your favorite character if they resemble that character. At a minimum level, accuracy means the fighter needs to look like the character. Ganondorf at least has that, sure! Every character has that (some grumblers might say Ridley doesn't) because that's the easiest aspect to satisfy.

To turn your question on you... consider some characters that have struggled competitively, or aren't very popular to play as. Would you support Jigglypuff getting a grenade attack to give her a projectile game, or stretchy long limbs to improve her range, even though it would make her less faithful? Maybe she'd be more fun! Or maybe Samus would be more fun and better if they dropped the projectiles and made her faster and melee-based? Olimar is a bit niche and a lot of people don't consider him fun to play as or against. Maybe he'd be more fun if they got rid of the Pikmin? The problem with this false dichotomy of "fun" vs. "accuracy" is that I can't see fans of any character embracing making a character drop important canon-based moves or attributes for the sake of a "better" moveset and claiming that makes it more fun.

Nobody asks whether Mario having Fireballs or Samus having Charge Shot and Missiles is what's best for making them "fun". It is accepted as obvious that they should have those moves, and the Smash team's job is to make it work, make it fun. Not just go "Samus would be more fun if she just punched and kicked, so let's do that instead and not give her projectiles." I think we would all agree... Samus without projectiles wouldn't be Samus and it wouldn't be more fun.

 

[meleebrawler]

This is a false dichotomy in two ways.

One, the choice isn't Falcondorf vs. lousy canon moveset. There's so much potential for Ganondorf that they could come up with something good and if they needed to, they could still add in something or the other to fill any gaps (for example, Samus's melee attacks are mostly non-canon, yet she still manages to have missiles, charge shot, grapple beam, morph ball, bombs and screw attack). And Ganondorf's moveset has some significant issues as it is. I don't think people would complain that Ganondorf isn't fun anymore if they replaced Warlock Punch with something else.

Two, accuracy and fun factor are not totally separate things. The whole point of Smash (as opposed to Dragon King) is that you have fun playing as your favorite characters. And you only have the experience of playing as your favorite character if they resemble that character. At a minimum level, accuracy means the fighter needs to look like the character. Ganondorf at least has that, sure! Every character has that (some grumblers might say Ridley doesn't) because that's the easiest aspect to satisfy.

To turn your question on you... consider some characters that have struggled competitively, or aren't very popular to play as. Would you support Jigglypuff getting a grenade attack to give her a projectile game, or stretchy long limbs to improve her range, even though it would make her less faithful? Maybe she'd be more fun! Or maybe Samus would be more fun and better if they dropped the projectiles and made her faster and melee-based? Olimar is a bit niche and a lot of people don't consider him fun to play as or against. Maybe he'd be more fun if they got rid of the Pikmin? The problem with this false dichotomy of "fun" vs. "accuracy" is that I can't see fans of any character embracing making a character drop important canon-based moves or attributes for the sake of a "better" moveset and claiming that makes it more fun.

Nobody asks whether Mario having Fireballs or Samus having Charge Shot and Missiles is what's best for making them "fun". It is accepted as obvious that they should have those moves, and the Smash team's job is to make it work, make it fun. Not just go "Samus would be more fun if she just punched and kicked, so let's do that instead and not give her projectiles." I think we would all agree... Samus without projectiles wouldn't be Samus and it wouldn't be more fun.

You're putting words in my mouth. When did I ever suggest mixing canon and fun cannot be done? All I meant was that if you're going to propose new character mechanics and changes, you should be ready to explain how they will improve or change the character in a meaningful way before how it lines up with canon. I used to see this when I first got here, but now this thread is just a pointless debate over very subjective interpretations of a character by people who claim to understand him better than anyone.

I made a few comments on what I perceived of Ganondorf's character. I now wholeheartedly regret ever posting them because that along with not being 100% against the current Smash Ganondorf was apparently enough to blacklist me and earn a giant lecture every time I open my mouth about what I think about Ganondorf and it doesn't align exactly with the thoughts anti-Falcondorf posters, even though I never at any point directly opposed your ideas except when I thought they were dumb for gameplay.

Well I've got news for you, and all others who've done this. I barely read these responses because I just don't feel this subject is worth getting upset over. I'm only responding this time because you went so far as to twist my words, and I'm only going to say this once: feel free to post disagreements over what I say, but don't expect me to respond if all you have to spout is canon, because I have no time to waste for people who cannot be the least bit happy for what they have. And until this thread gets it's act together, I'm not posting the slightest shred of my Ganon canon. Call it childish shutoff of arguments if you want. I just can't be bothered.

 

[Quillion]

I have to agree with meleebrawler that the "Ganon Canon" debate is incredibly toxic. You "Canondorfs" put forth incredibly fallacious and ignorant arguments to argue that Ganondorf just isn't the way you want him.

And I would honestly argue that, while Ganondorf as a puncher (he can't really be called "Falcondorf" when the moveset wasn't original to Falcon's series in the first place) was one of the most pleasant surprises as to how it worked in Smash. He demands that players be as maniuplative yet arrogant as him, and I think because of this, he reflects his canon character better than Mario or even Cloud. This is a character in Smash whose moveset is based around who he is, and not just what he does.

And yes, as I have stated before, I'm not too fond of the swords because it goes against his playstyle; he should be getting in close and punishing mistakes, and the sweeping hitboxes of his Smashes contradict this playstyle. They should've given him a stronger version of Bowser's Tough Guy, as that actually fits his character more than Bowser.

I'd like to publicly request the mods that all "Ganon canon" debates be made a source of automatic ban.