A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[Erimir]

I never at any point directly opposed your ideas except when I thought they were dumb for gameplay.

"Aside from calling your ideas dumb, I never criticized them!"

Oh ok.

 

[meleebrawler]

I have to agree with meleebrawler that the "Ganon Canon" debate is incredibly toxic. You "Canondorfs" put forth incredibly fallacious and ignorant arguments to argue that Ganondorf just isn't the way you want him.

And I would honestly argue that, while Ganondorf as a puncher (he can't really be called "Falcondorf" when the moveset wasn't original to Falcon's series in the first place) was one of the most pleasant surprises as to how it worked in Smash. He demands that players be as maniuplative yet arrogant as him, and I think because of this, he reflects his canon character better than Mario or even Cloud. This is a character in Smash whose moveset is based around who he is, and not just what he does.

And yes, as I have stated before, I'm not too fond of the swords because it goes against his playstyle; he should be getting in close and punishing mistakes, and the sweeping hitboxes of his Smashes contradict this playstyle. They should've given him a stronger version of Bowser's Tough Guy, as that actually fits his character more than Bowser.

I'd like to publicly request the mods that all "Ganon canon" debates be made a source of automatic ban.

But.. his smashes except maybe for dsmash (which is still functionally identical in Ultimate despite the sword) were too slow on startup to be reliable for close-quarters combat. They were used mainly when you expected an opponent to blunder into their range, just outside the reach of most moves. The new sword smashes do basically the same thing, but with more coverage making opponent's even more likely to accidentally underestimate their range.

 

[Rizen]

I'd like to publicly request the mods that all "Ganon canon" debates be made a source of automatic ban.

Ha.

Seriously, the only real logic that counts for anything in smash is Sakurai logic.

 

[Boartobewild]

Internet being a wonderful mess again.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I do kind of think that Ganondorf's d-smash should've had him swinging his sword in a similar manner as Ike's d-smash, instead of copying Cloud's d-smash. Sometimes, relying on the second hit for the best results is not a good thing, especially if the chances of the second hit missing are rather good.

 

[meleebrawler]

I do kind of think that Ganondorf's d-smash should've had him swinging his sword in a similar manner as Ike's d-smash, instead of copying Cloud's d-smash. Sometimes, relying on the second hit for the best results is not a good thing, especially if the chances of the second hit missing are rather good.

Maybe, but when your usmash already does the job of covering rolls, the extra utility of turning the tables with a backwards launch is nice to have.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Maybe, but when your usmash already does the job of covering rolls, the extra utility of turning the tables with a backwards launch is nice to have.

Still, when you look at the history of Ganondorf's d-smash, the way it was set up isn't exactly the most dependable. Even if you do land the first hit, there's a chance that the second hit will miss its mark. And it doesn't even make much sense for the first kick to send fighters toward Ganondorf either.

Instead, it's probably just better if both kicks have the same KO potential, much like with Captain Falcon's d-smash. Of course, you do sacrifice the ability to deal up to two hits, but that's a tiny price for making the attack more reliable to use.

 

[meleebrawler]

Still, when you look at the history of Ganondorf's d-smash, the way it was set up isn't exactly the most dependable. Even if you do land the first hit, there's a chance that the second hit will miss its mark. And it doesn't even make much sense for the first kick to send fighters toward Ganondorf either.

Instead, it's probably just better if both kicks have the same KO potential, much like with Captain Falcon's d-smash. Of course, you do sacrifice the ability to deal up to two hits, but that's a tiny price for making the attack more reliable to use.

For most that kind of dsmash complements them... but Ganondorf already has strong options in his tilts for quick forward-facing KO moves. The backward hit gives dsmash a use beyond possibly catching a roll. In Falcon's case, his tilts have basically no kill power so he needs that strong forward hit on his.

 

[Boartobewild]

meleebrawler Quillion

Look..... First of all everybody should realize/ accept that this is a highly subjective debate, with no true objective solution at hand.
As everybody on the Canondorf side of the argument has stated however, there are So many good reasons,points as to why Ganon SHOULD get a better represantation and moveset, since Sakurai can clearly put in the work needed to better represent a character, and it's not like Ganon's overwhelming power and strength makes it impossible to make a balanced, yet derseving imposing moveset for the Demon king , if Project(M) Ganondorf is any indication. So do wanna know, what the sole remaining problem is, besides Sakurai being stubborn?

It's people like YOU. The kind, that much like me, have been introduced to Ganondorf through Melee( where he was at least viable) and have come to absolutely love his moveset and Style, but now oppose the general opinion, that Ganon is kept back in both potential and tier list by your refusal to accept change!

And ALSO, stop trying to act like victims here, I'm aware that I especially tend to lack tact and not adress issues in the most graceful manner, but at least I'm not lying to myself.
This "heated" discussion is far away from 4 chan and Tumblr standarts, so anything but toxic in my Opinion. Or can you show me a handful of examples, where somebody got insulted( personally) and entirely disrespected and shunned for his opinion? I haven't seen anything along these lines so far! The only thing I can observe, is a lengthy pretty passionate argument, which has been going on since Brawl at the very least!!! I'm very much aware that you won't ever change your mind and are entitled to your opinion. But if you can't take criticism and a little heat, when argueing with others, please, I implore you:

"Accept that you are in the minority with your viewpoint/stance and don't participate or paint yourself as targets if you can't handle it. That's the final thing, I'm going to say, if that doesn't help, I will do what you and everyone should do from now on; JUST IGNORE IT! "

 

[King9999]

Ganon's old d-smash wasn't always reliable, so I'm hoping the new one will be consistent. That's something I'll be testing for sure.

 

[Boartobewild]

Ganon's old d-smash wasn't always reliable, so I'm hoping the new one will be consistent. That's something I'll be testing for sure.

Looks and sounds( from people that played him) like everything we wanted/wished it to be. It's pretty ironic, so far, it looks as though, D-smash is going to be the most useful out of all the new sword smashes as opposed to Sm4sh, where it objectively was the worst.

Though what I'm really interested in, is how Nair works now, as that was by far the most prominent move to change during the patches of Sm4sh for some reason.

 

[Deleted member]

I'd like to publicly request the mods that all "Ganon canon" debates be made a source of automatic ban.[/USER]

Whoa, chill there Quillion.

To me, it's important that a character is fun to play as yes, but also feels like I'm playing as that character. That's the whole point of a character-based fighting game. Otherwise we might as well be choosing from grey boxes with labels instead of characters.

And to me, the Melee/Ultimate Ganondorf does feel like OoT Ganondorf. Ganondorf's OoT voice clips make him sound incredibly brutal and ruthless. Sure, he does float and blast out magical projectiles in that game, but he also slams the ground with his fist during your fight with him, and just all of his animations suggest that if given the chance he would absolutely be able to physically overpower almost any opponent. Still talking about just OoT, we know he comes from the Gerudo culture whose members seem to all be trained in the art of battle, using various weapons including swords. Why, even when Ganondorf transforms into Beast Ganon, he seems very comfortable wielding two giant swords.

But I'm still not done: also found in Gerudo desert are the Silver Gauntlets, which grant the user immense strength. Interestingly, an upgraded version of these, the Golden Gauntlets, are found later in Ganon's Tower, presumably his own treasure or one he took from the Gerudo. Hyrule Warriors actually connected the dots here and depicted Ganondorf with golden gauntlets in that game. Whether Ganondorf wields similar strength-enhancing gauntlets normally is not known, but I would say he definitely could. And finally, the fact that he is a warlock who dons heavy armor indicates he's more than just some spell-casting mage; he expects to get up close using whatever tactics necessary.

So when you just look at OoT Ganondorf even from that one game, depicting him in Smash Bros. as a mage brawler who rushes opponents with Flame Choke or Dark Dive, assaults foes with Warlock Punch or Wizard's Foot, and can now punish enemies with devastating strikes with his sword--I don't necessarily see how it's not true to his character. Could it be more true? Yes, and Samus could be more true to her character, and so could Sheik or Donkey Kong or Luigi etc. In the end this is mostly one man's vision (Sakurai's) of how these characters would play but I'm really looking forward to play as Ganondorf in Ultimate and I think he'll feel great and will be tons of fun.

 

[Boartobewild]

Whoa, chill there Quillion.

To me, it's important that a character is fun to play as yes, but also feels like I'm playing as that character. That's the whole point of a character-based fighting game. Otherwise we might as well be choosing from grey boxes with labels instead of characters.

And to me, the Melee/Ultimate Ganondorf does feel like OoT Ganondorf. Ganondorf's OoT voice clips make him sound incredibly brutal and ruthless. Sure, he does float and blast out magical projectiles in that game, but he also slams the ground with his fist during your fight with him, and just all of his animations suggest that if given the chance he would absolutely be able to physically overpower almost any opponent. Still talking about just OoT, we know he comes from the Gerudo culture whose members seem to all be trained in the art of battle, using various weapons including swords. Why, even when Ganondorf transforms into Beast Ganon, he seems very comfortable wielding two giant swords.

But I'm still not done: also found in Gerudo desert are the Silver Gauntlets, which grant the user immense strength. Interestingly, an upgraded version of these, the Golden Gauntlets, are found later in Ganon's Tower, presumably his own treasure or one he took from the Gerudo. Hyrule Warriors actually connected the dots here and depicted Ganondorf with golden gauntlets in that game. Whether Ganondorf wields similar strength-enhancing gauntlets normally is not known, but I would say he definitely could. And finally, the fact that he is a warlock who dons heavy armor indicates he's more than just some spell-casting mage; he expects to get up close using whatever tactics necessary.

So when you just look at OoT Ganondorf even from that one game, depicting him in Smash Bros. as a mage brawler who rushes opponents with Flame Choke or Dark Dive, assaults foes with Warlock Punch or Wizard's Foot, and can now punish enemies with devastating strikes with his sword--I don't necessarily see how it's not true to his character. Could it be more true? Yes, and Samus could be more true to her character, and so could Sheik or Donkey Kong or Luigi etc. In the end this is mostly one man's vision (Sakurai's) of how these characters would play but I'm really looking forward to play as Ganondorf in Ultimate and I think he'll feel great and will be tons of fun.

See? Now that's actually a good argument for (Semi-) Falcondorf, which is backed by the games and makes sense. However, it's just
ONE VERSION/FIGHTING STYLE out of at least 3 other possible variants. Again, we do have 3 "different" Link characterslots, so don't tell me that we can have just ONE Ganon.

Hell, it doesn't even have to be Ganon, the dual sword Hw/Ww style could just as well be represented by Zant or even better Ghirahim.
A purely magic focused or Trident variant could either be Phantom Ganon or Yuga(Ganon) as long as we get more villain spots and more interesting movesets, it would all be fair game.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Though what I'm really interested in, is how Nair works now, as that was by far the most prominent move to change during the patches of Sm4sh for some reason.

For me, I feel that both of the n-air's kicks should have KO potential (much like in Melee), but it would be the second kick that deals the most knockback. Basically, it would be possible to land both kicks at low damage, but as the target's damage increases, it becomes more difficult to land that second kick. But even if you don't land the second kick, the first kick would still deal good knockback to get fighters off Ganondorf's face.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Long Video by ESAM but it was good. Ganondorf is talked about at 26 min for those who want to skip.
According to the play time got he is putting Ganon at HIGH TIER! If that is true omg...

 

[meleebrawler]

Long Video by ESAM but it was good. Ganondorf is talked about at 26 min for those who want to skip.
According to the play time got he is putting Ganon at HIGH TIER! If that is true omg...

I'd like to point out his statement regarding low tiers in that being so in this game generally means you're OK and just lack a certain ''oomph'' that higher tiers have. Compare that to older games where it usually means you have bad issues.

He's kind of underselling Bowser's grab game, though. His dthrow is now the highest damage throw in the game and side b is the fastest command grab that kills, especially with platforms.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

I'd like to point out his statement regarding low tiers in that being so in this game generally means you're OK and just lack a certain ''oomph'' that higher tiers have. Compare that to older games where it usually means you have bad issues.

He's kind of underselling Bowser's grab game, though. His dthrow is now the highest damage throw in the game and side b is the fastest command grab that kills, especially with platforms.

Idk much about Bowser dthrow so ill take your word for it.
And if low tiers are still "OK" in Ultimate that means the devs did a good job with balancing with this game.
I would love to see more characters being used on the pro levels.

 

[Rizen]

I don't see how the big G can be high tier if he still has the 2nd worse recovery in the game. InB4 Cloud- no Cloud has great airspeed, high jumps, great disjoint and an optional 2nd cut on upB; even without limit his recovery's much better than ganon's.

 

[Boartobewild]

I don't see how the big G can be high tier if he still has the 2nd worse recovery in the game. InB4 Cloud- no Cloud has great airspeed, high jumps, great disjoint and an optional 2nd cut on upB; even without limit his recovery's much better than ganon's.

Really what made Ganon's recovery bad is just the fact that, he grabs as opposed to attacks his opponent with upb and has pretty much next to no mix ups if he recovers from below, meaning that his recovers is pretty predictable.

However for one there is gonna be a lot more focus on edge guarding, and automatically snapping to the ledge is going to be a lot harder, combine that with the fact that airdodging is nowhere near as good offstage as it once was, especially when recovering from above and I would say that things and recoveries we've known so far are gonna be very different from now on and far too early to make accurate predictions.

Also something people give dark dive way too less credit for, is the fact that it's natural course of direction( not sure what the proper term would be, maybe trajectory?)made reaching the ledge much easier especially when compared to a lot of other chars like cloud( though if that is still the case, I'm not sure) you could swat people away with the ending uppercut from the edge if they tried using 2 frame trapping/catching Ganon when grabbing the ledge and finally if people misjudged the timing and distance when attempting to meteor or spike Ganon out of darkdive, they could get grabbed instead and ironically help Ganon recover from situations he might not even made it back on stage and as thanks get killed in return, which will be even easier now that dark dive's launch trajectory and knockback is much better ^O^

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Also I have a hunch that since now they are catering to a more competitive crowd with Ultimate that of Ganon's (or any character's) recovery is awful they would probably buff those recoveries. Or whatever else needs to be buffed, or nerfed...

They should give Ganon a hover. It fits the cannon and would make his recovery 'at least' decent.

 

[Boartobewild]

Also I have a hunch that since now they are catering to a more competitive crowd with Ultimate that of Ganon's (or any character's) recovery is awful they would probably buff those recoveries. Or whatever else needs to be buffed, or nerfed...

They should give Ganon a hover. It fits the cannon and would make his recovery 'at least' decent.

While I agree, that Ganon definitely needs a better recovery, I'm not sure that a character like Ganon, who especially now has some of the strongest airials, should receive a hover much like peach, that does sound pretty overkill, how did he fare in Project M with that?

He does sport higher jumps now, which should hopefully alleviate some "barely missed the edge" moments and does anybody know whether his airspeed is the same? What would help Ganon a ton (starting to sound like a broken record by now, but it really does bear repeating) and also help to mix and make off stage plays for his opponent more risky, would be simply letting him act/dbjump/upb out of airial flame choke, I can't really stress this enough!

Also that shouldn't be too much to ask, all star fox chars, generally most side bs that resulted in freefall before and EVEN LIL'MAC can do so now, so y not Ganon?!?! A char, that has always been notorious for weaker recovery, which would still be the case, since he could still be meteor/spiked if timed correctly, but at least he won't be unnessaccarily killed prematurely, for being knocked off, for happening to catch a wimpy smash at the edge!

Also do we now how DI works/exists in Ultimate?

 

[_Ganondorf_]

While I agree, that Ganon definitely needs a better recovery, I'm not sure that a character like Ganon, who especially now has some of the strongest airials, should receive a hover much like peach, that does sound pretty overkill, how did he fare in Project M with that?

He does sport higher jumps now, which should hopefully alleviate some "barely missed the edge" moments and does anybody know whether his airspeed is the same? What would help Ganon a ton (starting to sound like a broken record by now, but it really does bear repeating) and also help to mix and make off stage plays for his opponent more risky, would be simply letting him act/dbjump/upb out of airial flame choke, I can't really stress this enough!

Also that shouldn't be too much to ask, all star fox chars, generally most side bs that resulted in freefall before and EVEN LIL'MAC can do so now, so y not Ganon?!?! A char, that has always been notorious for weaker recovery, which would still be the case, since he could still be meteor/spiked if timed correctly, but at least he won't be unnessaccarily killed prematurely, for being knocked off, for happening to catch a wimpy smash at the edge!

Also do we now how DI works/exists in Ultimate?

I meant a hover like in PM or maybe that but with a big more distance a mobility to go up or down somthing thay would allow mix ups on and off the stage.

No free for after side B should be a given at this point for all characters. I don't see why Flacon and Ganon are excluded tbh.

Also I wish we get another jump and yet aerial down B like in Melee, that would help a ton too.

 

[Darches]

I feel that Gandalf's Ganondorf's recovery was the #1 thing keeping him in the bottom tier, and will continue to do so if not fixed. The man dies at 30% to semi-spikes, without even being edgeguarded. He's more gimpable than Bowser (who is the king of being spiked).

 

[meleebrawler]

I feel that Gandalf's Ganondorf's recovery was the #1 thing keeping him in the bottom tier, and will continue to do so if not fixed. The man dies at 30% to semi-spikes, without even being edgeguarded. He's more gimpable than Bowser (who is the king of being spiked).

I dunno, plenty of top tiers in Melee beg to differ in good recovery being essential.

 

[_Rated D.R.K_]

I dunno, plenty of top tiers in Melee beg to differ in good recovery being essential.

Somewhere Falcon is in the distance, wishing he had eight jumps.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I dunno, plenty of top tiers in Melee beg to differ in good recovery being essential.

Melee Fox may be #1 in Super Smash Bros. Melee, be he has among the worst recoveries, due to falling like an anchor, and his Fox Illusion leaving him helpless after use. Smash 3DS / Wii U managed to fix up that flaw, which in return, improved Fox's recovery greatly.

Anyway, Ganondorf's recovery may be poor, but he's still able to get back onto the stage by recovering at an altitude where opponents won't risk trying to gimp him.

 

[Rizen]

Anyway, Ganondorf's recovery may be poor, but he's still able to get back onto the stage by recovering at an altitude where opponents won't risk trying to gimp him.

Gimping Ganon is one of the best things to do in the MU (VS him). If you sex kicked from above it got around his upB and sideB grabs for an easy kill due to his slow, linear recovery. At least in ssb4 if people didn't gimp ganon they didn't know the MU.

 

[Boartobewild]

Gimping Ganon is one of the best things to do in the MU (VS him). If you sex kicked from above it got around his upB and sideB grabs for an easy kill due to his slow, linear recovery. At least in ssb4 if people didn't gimp ganon they didn't know the MU.

Yeah but as Esam stated, Ganon will have a much better neutral than ever, so getting him offstage won't be quite as easy as before, especially with the new "ballon like" knockback and hitstun changes (thank God, all praise be to Sakurai!), so as long as (S)DI wasn't heavily nerfed, that should provide us with a lot of options, even offstage.

Also the disadvantage State you were referring to, mainly comes into play when you happen to be recovering low, where Ganon's lenghty Airials can't be used to contest whatever gets thrown at him, that's an entirely different story, when recovering high.

I don't know about you, but pretty much every prior Smash, I rarely had any sort of trouble when being launched high and steering, falling back to the ledge or stage, as my opponents pretty soon respected or feared getting hit with fast falling fair, dair, uair, nair, bair( if I was stupid enough to get launched backwards) and especially risking Ganoncide or even worse meteor spiked by wizkick ^_^

 

[Deleted member]

I feel that Gandalf's Ganondorf's recovery was the #1 thing keeping him in the bottom tier, and will continue to do so if not fixed. The man dies at 30% to semi-spikes, without even being edgeguarded. He's more gimpable than Bowser (who is the king of being spiked).

Dang it now I want a LotR fighting game

 

[Darches]

I dunno, plenty of top tiers in Melee beg to differ in good recovery being essential.

The ledge trump makes recovery MUCH more valuable in Sm4sh. I don't know much about competitive Melee but if everyone was edgehogged to death then recovery would practically be bad across the board. Recovery distance is much more important now.

... and especially risking Ganoncide or even worse meteor spiked by wizkick ^_^

Pretty sure most top tiers can beat Ganoncide with some form of disjoint or extreme mobility; it rarely works for me even when I throw it out early (such that missing would kill me).

 

[Boartobewild]

The ledge trump makes recovery MUCH more valuable in Sm4sh. I don't know much about competitive Melee but if everyone was edgehogged to death then recovery would practically be bad across the board. Recovery distance is much more important now.


Pretty sure most top tiers can beat Ganoncide with some form of disjoint or extreme mobility; it rarely works for me even when I throw it out early (such that missing would kill me).

Well the trick is, which isn't guranteed to always work though, to save your db jump or airdodge and time it with your opponents attack and then go for airial flame choke! This is naturally only possible with the correct timing and circumstances and ofc ,the bread and butter of every Ganon, correct prediction and also you should do a lot of mix ups and go for a lot of airials, even if you know that they'll miss or hit shield, but if you make your opponent more weary and thus condition him to use shield, well you know how this song and dance goes^.^

Also the fact, that we can use directional air dodge to get past long hitbox duration kind of moves, like mewtwo's nair and Sex kicks in general now, will keep opponents guessing and thus more likely to commit mistakes

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

I know that this thread is for Smash Ultimate Ganondorf, but lately I've been trying to improve his Smash Wii U moveset further. But regardless of the game, Ganondorf really needs improvements if he wants to be a viable slow and powerful fighter (or at least viable enough to reach the C-tier).

 

[Skull_Kid]

Thought you guys might find this interesting: I played Ganon a lot at the Nintendo Uk VS Sunday and took some vids. Sorry for the low quality, I did have a DSLR, but the PR peps managed to get it out of focus (and shaky) with auto-focus on, had to resort to my smartphone. Won't be online much to answer questions I'm afraid, I have no internet atm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3p6wEFyi718

 

[Boartobewild]

I know that this thread is for Smash Ultimate Ganondorf, but lately I've been trying to improve his Smash Wii U moveset further. But regardless of the game, Ganondorf really needs improvements if he wants to be a viable slow and powerful fighter (or at least viable enough to reach the C-tier).

Well the most glaring issues he had in Sm4sh, were the lag on his airials, not having any good burst options outside of Dash attack, not any worthwhile Oos options, poor grab game, the range/hitbox properties of his smash attacks being suboptimal and being generally ****ed when getting juggled or trying to get or even land back on stage.

BUT LOOK AT HIM NOW! Pretty much all of these issues have been adressed or mitigated in-or directly, either through Buffs or Mechanic/ Game engine changes. Ofc this won't generally change the nature of Smash and whether heavies finally have some say in the matter, also remains to be seen, but think about it this way. Ganon mostly fell victim to very prevalent Game relevant traits, which don't exist in Smash Ultimate. Let me count them; Edge hogging and long ass tumble state from Melee? Gone. Hit stun canceling and Chain grabbing in Brawl? Burried! Dodging for days and despite least amount of Hp and more shield breaking moves than any prior game, the most defensive Sm4sh ever?!?!
YOU WON'T BE MISSED!!!

There's a good reason, why everyone lost their **** and is still hyped as hell, despite the fans getting ever more demanding and expecting and asking for more and more. (which I am going to be honest, I count myself among those people, as I was ready to drop smash or ignore it for a while, unless it made revolutionary or very impactful changes/effort, which proofed that they listenend and cared for the hardcore fanbase) Thankfully they delivered

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Well the most glaring issues he had in Sm4sh, were the lag on his airials, not having any good burst options outside of Dash attack, not any worthwhile Oos options, poor grab game, the range/hitbox properties of his smash attacks being suboptimal and being generally ****ed when getting juggled or trying to get or even land back on stage.

The lack of armor for certain attacks didn't help either. In regards to the aerials, I do recall that it's impossible to auto-cancel the forward aerial, all thanks to a programming error.

 

[Darches]

Shield health was lower but overall strength was higher due to regeneration. Throw in perfect shields and it only gets worse.
I'm still pissed that Bowser Bomb doesn't always break regular shields, I'm not sure what causes that but I think it was an update.

 

[meleebrawler]

Shield health was lower but overall strength was higher due to regeneration. Throw in perfect shields and it only gets worse.
I'm still pissed that Bowser Bomb doesn't always break regular shields, I'm not sure what causes that but I think it was an update.

I think only a grounded Bomb with both the rising hit and the fall + shockwave can break a fully healthy shield.

The lack of armor for certain attacks didn't help either. In regards to the aerials, I do recall that it's impossible to auto-cancel the forward aerial, all thanks to a programming error.

The moves that gave Ganondorf armour are Warlock Punch and Dark Fists. Coincidentally both involve building up dark energy before unleashing it. Guess darkness makes for a heck of a shield when held.

 

[Boartobewild]

I think only a grounded Bomb with both the rising hit and the fall + shockwave can break a fully healthy shield.



The moves that gave Ganondorf armour are Warlock Punch and Dark Fists. Coincidentally both involve building up dark energy before unleashing it. Guess darkness makes for a heck of a shield when held.

Huh, guess people would have good reason for wanting both Wizkick and Flamechoke to have Superarmor then. In case of the former I do distinctly remember the starting frames of the airial version having invincibility frames during the airial version, as I used it to hit people out of both Super- and normal hammer in casual matches in Brawl, but also remember it allowing me to slip through a Super sonic!!! Why Sakurai felt the need to remove this, as well as grab invincibility for flame choke, is a mystery to me...................

 

[Boartobewild]

Is there really no way to delete unwanted or accidental messages?

 

[Boartobewild]

Internet or site double posting for whatever reason.