A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[_Ganondorf_]

Link's bombs and hookshot. -_-

Yeah that...

And if they want to give him the HW energy ball punch then fine give us that instead of regular Warlock punch.
It should let us charge up an energy ball and store it then blast it out with a quick punch :D

Heck give us the darkness meter mechanic from HW. Ganon builds up darkness power as we hit (and/or get hit by) our opponents making all his attacks more powerful and it resets when we die or when we use Neutral B. Neutral B is the darkness energy ball and it builds up as we fight. This would make people second guess approaching the Demon King! I think that would be an awesome mechanic.


Also; I think if grounded Wiz Kick isnt a KO move I say make it a multi hit move with combo potential. Could be a cool way to spice it up.

 

[Boartobewild]

It's too late to get rid of the punch, he uses it in Hyrule Warriors (albeit to punch an energy ball into pieces), and once a move from Smash makes it
into other games, that's the sign it's too far ingrained to be removed. The most that will happen is it getting modified.

I'll give you one thing, it's pretty unlikely for them to remove the warlockpunch at this point, but I hope at the very least that a character can't just jab combo you out of of it any longer like the last game, where the very last few frames he got vunerable again. It also would be nice if you could turn at any point like Ryu and all the other chargeable non-projectile moves ( Roy's neutral b) can.

 

[Hokori]

Heck give us the darkness meter mechanic from HW. Ganon builds up darkness power as we hit (and/or get hit by) our opponents making all his attacks more powerful and it resets when we die or when we use Neutral B. Neutral B is the darkness energy ball and it builds up as we fight. This would make people second guess approaching the Demon King! I think that would be an awesome mechanic.

Sounds like Limit x Aura mechanic. Wild. Would probably have to tone that down though. Cloud now has to use Limit within 15 seconds after it's fully charged (otherwise it's reset) and Lucario starts off pretty weak until it sustains a lot of damage. Ganondorf is powerful by default, even more so in Ultimate with all of our damage buffs. Nothing would stop me from just ignoring my neutral special and taking advantage of all that power and KO'ing opponents at laughable percentages with my backhand or spartan kick

"No one man should have all that power"

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Sounds like Limit x Aura mechanic. Wild. Would probably have to tone that down though. Cloud now has to use Limit within 15 seconds after it's fully charged (otherwise it's reset) and Lucario starts off pretty weak until it sustains a lot of damage. Ganondorf is powerful by default, even more so in Ultimate with all of our damage buffs. Nothing would stop me from just ignoring my neutral special and taking advantage of all that power and KO'ing opponents at laughable percentages with my backhand or spartan kick

"No one man should have all that power"

Yeah you are right. I was just spit balling ideas lol
If anything the darkness meter builds up as we hit the opponent and resets after we die. And maybe instead of more knockback power we get to do more % damage? So we get to a ko percentage quicker. Could be cool?
And if the meter is empty the neutral B is very weak but if it's full it can KO at like 80-100% and if blocked it destroys the opponent's shield so it must be dodged or reflected kinda like we cant block it in OoT or TP huh?

I know I'm just wishful thinking with cool mechanics like that but I'm just having fun thinking about it.
Besides if other characters can have cool mechanics why not our boy Ganon?

Also good quote from that song

 

[Boartobewild]

Yeah you are right. I was just spit balling ideas lol
If anything the darkness meter builds up as we hit the opponent and resets after we die. And maybe instead of more knockback power we get to do more % damage? So we get to a ko percentage quicker. Could be cool?
And if the meter is empty the neutral B is very weak but if it's full it can KO at like 80-100% and if blocked it destroys the opponent's shield so it must be dodged or reflected kinda like we cant block it in OoT or TP huh?

I know I'm just wishful thinking with cool mechanics like that but I'm just having fun thinking about it.
Besides if other characters can have cool mechanics why not our boy Ganon?

Also good quote from that song

As Hokori already stated Ganon has more than enough power, as is. What he would benefit way more from though is more in-tangible/vinciblity frames during his moves, which would also make the most sense and was and is still sort of present to a certain degree( the past intangibility of Dair, Warlock punch,Dash attack had/has about 2 frames of invincibility, and I once managed to go through Supersonic with the startup frames of airial wizkick in brawl!!!).

And how could anyone forget the "good old" times in melee and brawl when you could grab people basically out of any move or action? If there's one character that still deserves this attribute, it would be Ganon. That would also go along nicely with canon, Ganon is actually pretty much untouchable by anything then holy weapons, just try beating the final sword fight phase in Twilight Princess with the Ordon sword..............I dare you, I double dare you!

 

[_Ganondorf_]

As Hokori already stated Ganon has more than enough power, as is. What he would benefit way more from though is more in-tangible/vinciblity frames during his moves, which would also make the most sense and was and is still sort of present to a certain degree( the past intangibility of Dair, Warlock punch,Dash attack had/has about 2 frames of invincibility, and I once managed to go through Supersonic with the startup frames of airial wizkick in brawl!!!).

And how could anyone forget the "good old" times in melee and brawl when you could grab people basically out of any move or action? If there's one character that still deserves this attribute, it would be Ganon. That would also go along nicely with canon, Ganon is actually pretty much untouchable by anything then holy weapons, just try beating the final sword fight phase in Twilight Princess with the Ordon sword..............I dare you, I double dare you!

You are correct sir. I was just having fun with imaginary mechanics lol.

But I do like your suggestion.

 

[Just a random scrub]

^Yeah IDK what the devs were thinking when they made his Utilt. "Lets give a character with powerful smashes and warlock punch a Utilt that is superlaggy but a powerful kill move. That should round out his moveset."

But.... his up tilt's like, one of the most disrespectful things ever.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

But.... his up tilt's like, one of the most disrespectful things ever.

Yeah but I want Ganon to be good more than a disrespectful meme...
Also its possible to code his up tilt to be chargeable and to give it a hitbox above and in front of him as he raises his leg and we could charge it for the disrespect too. Now that could be a cool move.

So no charge would be similar to Falcon's up tilt but if we charge it we get the volcano kick.

 

[Rizen]

Snake gets god's Utilt, Ganon gets a meme.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Here is a vid of M2K battling Zero. Idk how good M2K is with Ganon but I know M2K is an amazing player... and I know Zero is amazing at Smash 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UepuIYnutdY

M2K didnt do well with Ganon at all. I hope M2K is just bad with Ganon and this isnt indicative of how well Ganon would preform.

 

[Boartobewild]

Yeah but I want Ganon to be good more than a disrespectful meme...
Also its possible to code his up tilt to be chargeable and to give it a hitbox above and in front of him as he raises his leg and we could charge it for the disrespect too. Now that could be a cool move.

So no charge would be similar to Falcon's up tilt but if we charge it we get the volcano kick.

Really the only way I would have been happy to see that move return would have been as an F-smash with the properties you described, but since we already have the sword swing, I don't see the need any longer :|

But.... his up tilt's like, one of the most disrespectful things ever.

Really? I'm not sure if you have any experience playing ganon, but let me ask you this question, what's more disrespectful, a move that has ridicolous charge time, but is pretty much impossible to land unless you mangage to time it with your enemy returning to the stage. Since even noobs will soon realize that they have about 5 seconds to simply hit you before you execute that move?!?
Or an attack that can actually withstand moves like charizard's flame blitz, ness, ike, cloud and kirby up-b, captain falcon, ryu-s and bowser's down-b( given that smash attacks can and will be charged longer to break and punish shielding, those will be another canidate this game) and be like:" I withstood your pathetic excuse for a finishing move, now let me just wind up my arms and backhand you like the ***** you are!"

I'm not the only one who gets reminded of this whenever Ganon lands that move right?

 

[Rizen]

Here is a vid of M2K battling Zero. Idk how good M2K is with Ganon but I know M2K is an amazing player... and I know Zero is amazing at Smash 4.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UepuIYnutdY

M2K didnt do well with Ganon at all. I hope M2K is just bad with Ganon and this isnt indicative of how well Ganon would preform.

I think M2K wasn't good with Ganon but that's partially because PSing was reworked and he couln't do it. I've played a really good ganon (SSB4) and he's all about footsies. M2K just blitzed in with wizkick and didn't shield grab or pivot.

 

[hermes]

With this nostalgic ganon I immediately took him as my new daddy husbando with magic infused physical attacks. Then I saw that his recovery and neutral b stays untouched... curious about playing him

 

[Just a random scrub]

Really? I'm not sure if you have any experience playing ganon, but let me ask you this question, what's more disrespectful, a move that has ridicolous charge time, but is pretty much impossible to land unless you mangage to time it with your enemy returning to the stage. Since even noobs will soon realize that they have about 5 seconds to simply hit you before you execute that move?!?
Or an attack that can actually withstand moves like charizard's flame blitz, ness, ike, cloud and kirby up-b, captain falcon, ryu-s and bowser's down-b( given that smash attacks can and will be charged longer to break and punish shielding, those will be another canidate this game) and be like:" I withstood your pathetic excuse for a finishing move, now let me just wind up my arms and backhand you like the ***** you are!"

I'm not the only one who gets reminded of this whenever Ganon lands that move right?

Yes, I do play Ganondorf in Smash 4. A lot.

Good point, the Warlock Punch is supreme.

(Also, lol, you're not alone, I'm also reminded of that when he hits with Warlock Punch)

 

[King9999]

I can't wait for the Ganon specialists to get their hands on him to see what they can do.

 

[Hokori]

I can't wait for the Ganon specialists to get their hands on him to see what they can do.

The vids of Eikelmann's Ganon that I posted are probably the best examples of solid Ganon play that we've been able to see.

I think M2K wasn't good with Ganon but that's partially because PSing was reworked and he couln't do it. I've played a really good ganon (SSB4) and he's all about footsies. M2K just blitzed in with wizkick and didn't shield grab or pivot.

Yeah, a solid footsie game is one of the keys to be successful with Ganon. M2K seemed to just be messing around for the most part since that kind of play with Ganon will get your ass handed back to you 99% of the time, haha.

On another note, here's the first Ultimate Ganon ditto vid that I've seen...

Fatality is a Falcon main of course, but he dabbles with the Dorf here and there as well.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

The vids of Eikelmann's Ganon that I posted are probably the best examples of solid Ganon play that we've been able to see.



Yeah, a solid footsie game is one of the keys to be successful with Ganon. M2K seemed to just be messing around for the most part since that kind of play with Ganon will get your *** handed back to you 99% of the time, haha.

On another note, here's the first Ultimate Ganon ditto vid that I've seen...

Fatality is a Falcon main of course, but he dabbles with the Dorf here and there as well.

I was just gonna post this video too.

Whats a footsie game exactly? The terminology is unfamiliar too me. I'm a Melee and Project M Ganon main, is footsie something in Smash4?


Also HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to all of my fellow Americans! Happy 4th of July!

 

[Hokori]

I was just gonna post this video too.

Whats a footsie game exactly? The terminology is unfamiliar too me. I'm a Melee and Project M Ganon main, is footsie something in Smash4?


Also HAPPY INDEPENDENCE DAY to all of my fellow Americans! Happy 4th of July!

It's an old-school fighting game term. Mid-range, attacking the opponent with ranged, safe attacks. The goal here is to bait the opponents to commit errors and punish them accordingly. In our case, throwing out a lot of Bairs, Nairs, and DTilts. Like you, I didn't really get into Smash 4, but USmash was a part of that too since we could quickly act out of it. Not anymore though. As Ganon players, we're pretty much all about getting reads and punishing mistakes hard. We don't have the tools to just attack others willy nilly since a lot of our moves aren't safe, slow, etc.

You knew about the last part, but I just felt the need to bring it up since it tied into the whole footsie discussion.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

It's an old-school fighting game term. Mid-range, attacking the opponent with ranged, safe attacks. The goal here is to bait the opponents to commit errors and punish them accordingly. In our case, throwing out a lot of Bairs, Nairs, and DTilts. Like you, I didn't really get into Smash 4, but USmash was a part of that too since we could quickly act out of it. Not anymore though. As Ganon players, we're pretty much all about getting reads and punishing mistakes hard. We don't have the tools to just attack others willy nilly since a lot of our moves aren't safe, slow, etc.

You knew about the last part, but I just felt the need to bring it up since it tied into the whole footsie discussion.

Yes I know exactly what you are talking about. In my circle we just call it "baiting". But I like footsie as well. Thank you for the explanation

 

[meleebrawler]

The vids of Eikelmann's Ganon that I posted are probably the best examples of solid Ganon play that we've been able to see.



Yeah, a solid footsie game is one of the keys to be successful with Ganon. M2K seemed to just be messing around for the most part since that kind of play with Ganon will get your *** handed back to you 99% of the time, haha.

On another note, here's the first Ultimate Ganon ditto vid that I've seen...

Fatality is a Falcon main of course, but he dabbles with the Dorf here and there as well.

You know, it's funny, this build is probably the only Smash roster that has Ganondorf but no Falcon.

 

[NintenRob]

The vids of Eikelmann's Ganon that I posted are probably the best examples of solid Ganon play that we've been able to see.



Yeah, a solid footsie game is one of the keys to be successful with Ganon. M2K seemed to just be messing around for the most part since that kind of play with Ganon will get your *** handed back to you 99% of the time, haha.

On another note, here's the first Ultimate Ganon ditto vid that I've seen...

Fatality is a Falcon main of course, but he dabbles with the Dorf here and there as well.

And this gives the third and presumably final victory animation. That means

1. Cape swoosh + fist bump
2. The return of the other fist bump, but now with a bit of floating
3. The classic laugh, although mostly inaudible, it seems to sound kinda strange. I hope better audio of this is found. You can however clearly hear his fanfare is still the same

 

[Rizen]

Happy 4th of July everyone

 

[Hokori]

You know, it's funny, this build is probably the only Smash roster that has Ganondorf but no Falcon.

It's a sign of the times. Ganondorf > Falcon. New era bois.

 

[Boartobewild]

It's a sign of the times. Ganondorf > Falcon. New era bois.

Well, at the very least it shows that Sakurai finally became aware of all the problems plagueing brawl and smash 4 and decided to make things right.

It's just speculation on my part, but I get the distinct impression that Sakurai pretty soon realized that the engine of smash 4 was too much of a mess compared to what he actually intended and that no matter how many patches he made, the game and certain characters would be stuck in limbo or become too strong, if he tried to buff certain attributes accordingly.

So he just went with the easier approach and decided to start working on smash's ultimate's engine while keeping and experimenting with smash4's via patches and so on.

Ofc I can't exactly imagine or know how much work still went into smash4, I'm aware that all the patches and extra dlc still required a lot of work and time, but by that same token/logic, one must wonder exactly when the concept and plan phase of ultimate came to be. The development time between the last mayor patch (1.1.5 if I remember correctly) and this is decidedly short compared to other smash games.

Well in any case, this seems like the game where Sakurai finally listenend to what people have been clamoring for years now and taking Ganon, a character who was sorta the posterchild of all these issues, and putting him at the fore front to represent the new game was just a genius move.

 

[Hokori]

Well, at the very least it shows that Sakurai finally became aware of all the problems plagueing brawl and smash 4 and decided to make things right.

It's just speculation on my part, but I get the distinct impression that Sakurai pretty soon realized that the engine of smash 4 was too much of a mess compared to what he actually intended and that no matter how many patches he made, the game and certain characters would be stuck in limbo or become too strong, if he tried to buff certain attributes accordingly.

So he just went with the easier approach and decided to start working on smash's ultimate's engine while keeping and experimenting with smash4's via patches and so on.

Ofc I can't exactly imagine or know how much work still went into smash4, I'm aware that all the patches and extra dlc still required a lot of work and time, but by that same token/logic, one must wonder exactly when the concept and plan phase of ultimate came to be. The development time between the last mayor patch (1.1.5 if I remember correctly) and this is decidedly short compared to other smash games.

Well in any case, this seems like the game where Sakurai finally listenend to what people have been clamoring for years now and taking Ganon, a character who was sorta the posterchild of all these issues, and putting him at the fore front to represent the new game was just a genius move.

My post was more of a joke (not actually expecting Ganondorf to be better than Falcon), but all of this applies to the heavyweight brawlers in general. The universal jumpsquat change, less landing lag, speeding up certain moves, etc. Out of all of the Ultimate footage I've seen so far, Ganondorf-bias aside, matches featuring heavyweights have been my favorites. They make me feel all giddy inside.

 

[NintenRob]

So I had a thought, what if Ganondorf got an energy ball attack. But it was only his ladder attack

 

[Hokori]

So I had a thought, what if Ganondorf got an energy ball attack. But it was only his ladder attack

Spoiler

Photoshop Sakurai's face on this and it would 100% express how I feel about that.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

Well, at the very least it shows that Sakurai finally became aware of all the problems plagueing brawl and smash 4 and decided to make things right.

It's just speculation on my part, but I get the distinct impression that Sakurai pretty soon realized that the engine of smash 4 was too much of a mess compared to what he actually intended and that no matter how many patches he made, the game and certain characters would be stuck in limbo or become too strong, if he tried to buff certain attributes accordingly.

So he just went with the easier approach and decided to start working on smash's ultimate's engine while keeping and experimenting with smash4's via patches and so on.

Ofc I can't exactly imagine or know how much work still went into smash4, I'm aware that all the patches and extra dlc still required a lot of work and time, but by that same token/logic, one must wonder exactly when the concept and plan phase of ultimate came to be. The development time between the last mayor patch (1.1.5 if I remember correctly) and this is decidedly short compared to other smash games.

Well in any case, this seems like the game where Sakurai finally listenend to what people have been clamoring for years now and taking Ganon, a character who was sorta the posterchild of all these issues, and putting him at the fore front to represent the new game was just a genius move.

My theory that Ganon is on the demo so Sakurai and the devs could see the reaction to him and see what/if they should improve with him based on feedback.

 

[_Ganondorf_]

New vid of M2K playing Ganon. 1st half is Ridley testing 2nd half is Ganon vs Snake.

 

[smashingDoug]

How about a victory animation where he play the pipe organ. That would be cool

If we fight hard enough we could get a victory animation update/dlc for pipe organs.

 

[Just a random scrub]

All these epic changes for The Swag Daddy of the Gerudo Desert make me a happy man (aside from being able to mash out of Ganoncide. Gross.)

But I still really wish he and Captain Falcon could reuse their double jumps after using their aerial down specials like in Melee. Right now, going off what we've seen of the 'Dorf, I'd say that would be enough to make him semi-viable.

 

[Boartobewild]

All these epic changes for The Swag Daddy of the Gerudo Desert make me a happy man (aside from being able to mash out of Ganoncide. Gross.)

But I still really wish he and Captain Falcon could reuse their double jumps after using their aerial down specials like in Melee. Right now, going off what we've seen of the 'Dorf, I'd say that would be enough to make him semi-viable.

I'm wholy agreeing with you on that front, though if it were up to me, I'd go so far as to make flight of ganon an intenional mechanic
( maybe not quite as high as it was in brawl) since it would be pretty lit to jump out of the ending animation of wizkick, either to chase after opponents hit/dragged by the kick or having a pretty good retreat option as I can hardly imagine any opponents who who would be capable of chasing ganon in this kind of scenario, to try as contesting bair, uair or dair wouldn't be the best idea.

As for Flame choke, still holding my hope out for Sakurai giving Falcon and Ganon the same treatment, he gave Little Mac, but if he sticks to his guns and keeps Ganondorf "helpless" offstage, I think a good compromise for nerving Ganoncide would be for Airial Flamechoke to gain the bury effect so you can get either a guranteed airial, d-tilt or even d-smash for smashing your opponent in the ground.

 

[OhMyBanana54]

So is it true that if you side b on stage and go off stage you don’t go into helpless anymore? Because that’d Be amazing for edgeguarding option coverage!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

So is it true that if you side b on stage and go off stage you don’t go into helpless anymore? Because that’d Be amazing for edgeguarding option coverage!

That's pretty much wasted by the fact that fighters can break free from aerial Flame Choke now.

 

[Boartobewild]

That's pretty much wasted by the fact that fighters can break free from aerial Flame Choke now.

Well you're right, but it also depends if you can steer it back as well onto the stage like one could in smash 4, because, then at the very least you would limit your opponents tech/getup option to:
1) Roll towards stage middle
2) Getup Attack
3)Simple get up/ staying low

Roll away is eliminated, since near the edge it's basically the same as get up animation. If you add to this fact that most people will probably instinctively gravitate more towards the middle, since that would be the safest option but in this case it's the most obvious.

Wait just a second, I'm a dolt, we're talking about airial Flame choke here. Silly me, that means shielding getup attack/ grabbing getup and either f/d- throwing the opponent off-stage and proceeding to gimp the opponent with any kind of airial or similair option.

Ohmybanana54 is right, that does sound pretty sweet.

 

[Quillion]

Just want to say: I'm going to miss his old Smashes.

The F-Smash was awesomely meaty, and the U-Smash was one of the best Smashes in the whole game in spite of Ganondorf's general slowness. I honestly feel even more miffed than how they got rid of Bowser's F-Smash in Smash 4.

Actually, now that I do miss the old Smashes, I NOW support giving them to Black Shadow as a Ganondorf echo.

 

[Idon]

Just want to say: I'm going to miss his old Smashes.

The F-Smash was awesomely meaty, and the U-Smash was one of the best Smashes in the whole game in spite of Ganondorf's general slowness. I honestly feel even more miffed than how they got rid of Bowser's F-Smash in Smash 4.

Actually, now that I do miss the old Smashes, I NOW support giving them to Black Shadow as a Ganondorf echo.

Honestly yeah. USmash was my goddamn JAM.
The perfect mix of power, satisfaction, and being an actually GOOD move.

If you're gonna replace Ganondorf's moveset, you might as well go all the way or not at all, imo.

 

[Quillion]

Honestly yeah. USmash was my goddamn JAM.
The perfect mix of power, satisfaction, and being an actually GOOD move.

If you're gonna replace Ganondorf's moveset, you might as well go all the way or not at all, imo.

I've always thought that they could apply these changes to his moves at maximum:

• Give Warlock Punch an "uncharged" version: by tapping the B button, you get a simple backhand that reflects projectiles (just like what he does in OoT).
• Change Wizkick into charging forward or diagonally downward with his Trident outstretched.
• Change U-Tilt so that instead of being flexible, he charges an explosive ball in his hand above him, then throws it down. Also give this move an "uncharged" version similar to Peach's U-Tilt where he does a quick upward magic attack.

Now his most iconic moves are still fundamentally similar without alienating his previous players, but reference his games better.

 

[Rizen]

In SSB4 Ganon had several moves that would have amazing on a better character: Usmash, Uair, Ftilt, Nair, Bair. He was largely balanced by having terrible mobility and no fast moves to fill in the gaps. IMO Uair is among the best in the game, f6 iirc, huge area of effect, it semi spikes and has amazing kill power. The only thing it can't do is combo.

 

[Quillion]

In SSB4 Ganon had several moves that would have amazing on a better character: Usmash, Uair, Ftilt, Nair, Bair. He was largely balanced by having terrible mobility and no fast moves to fill in the gaps. IMO Uair is among the best in the game, f6 iirc, huge area of effect, it semi spikes and has amazing kill power. The only thing it can't do is combo.

A heavy that could actually properly combo would be sweet. I don't know if it's too late for Ganondorf to lose the sword and go back to the brawling he deserves to have, but if Ganondorf were that heavy, all would be right in the world.