A Great Evil Walks the Earth, the Ganondorf in Smash Bros. Ultimate Discussion

[Kain6th]

the king has returned!

 

[godogod]

Regarding the poll.. I like the ganondorf, but don't think a revamp is necessary. Having something like deadman's volley as a custom moveset for standard b would be great at least(assuming we get custom moves back)

 

[VodkaHaze]

Honestly, seeing Ganondorf use his sword in vanilla gameplay is refreshing, because he's had it since Melee (victory pose) and you could only use it on a custom moveset. It also would have been cool to see him with his Hyrule Warriors design, but beggars can't be choosers.

As for whether we're better off seeing Ganondorf with a new moveset more loyal to the Zelda games, maybe. I personally find Ganondorf fun with the moveset we have already. Not to mention unless future Smash games are worked on by different developers, most of the changes that occur maybe small or big but they won't scrap existing characters' movesets and rebuild from scratch.

 

[Erimir]

what I mean is that while Ganondorf resembles his canon self the least of the characters in Smash, it's not to such a significant degree that it's a big deal.

I mean, it depends on what you mean by "big deal".

It's enough for me to complain about and to argue that he ought to have a different move set. Is that making a "big deal"? Is simply holding the opinion that it's not a good representation of Ganondorf a "big deal"? It seems like a pretty small deal to me.

If I was going to E3 and carrying protest signs about Ganondorf, that would be a different story. If I was boycotting Smash Bros, that might be a "big deal".

I fail to see how expressing my opinion on a board where people discuss every aspect of the series, pick apart tiny hints of evidence for what will be in the next game, and express their views on which characters should and should not be included, etc. is making a big deal out of it.

Zelda fans (I have played and completed every main series Zelda game except Adventure of Link) like for the game to include more Zelda fanservice. Making characters reflect their in-game appearances and/or their game or series in general to the extent that's possible and there's adequate material is pleasing to fans of those series and characters. Ganondorf's move set doesn't reflect his character particularly well, and was originally from a character from a totally different series.

You were originally arguing that it was not particularly different from other characters and that it represented Ganondorf well. Now you're saying well, it's not a "big deal". I agree, it's not a "big deal". So? And? Not everything discussed on this board has to be a big deal. In fact, a very large portion of what's discussed here is not a big deal. So what are you complaining about?

I'm actually not opposed to a revamp; I'm more attacking the whole "Canondorf" movement that screams ignorance of how Smash respects different aspects of characters while ignoring others. And those ignored aspects are often ignored because they're newer and they need to respect older Smash fans.

First of all, these aspects of Ganondorf are not new. Nobody is talking about giving Ganondorf moves from the Calamity Ganon battle while you're arguing that's not classic Ganondorf. This is in no way analogous to wanting to add Cappy to Mario's moveset. It's more like "remove that bow and arrow from Mario's moveset and replace it with fireballs."

Making the characters reflect their games is about the fans of those series and characters more so than it's about Smash fans in general. Some Smash fans might care about this sort of thing while not caring about the series or characters per se. I can imagine someone thinking, I don't like Zelda games at all, but Zelda characters should still reflect the Zelda series. But it's mostly the players who care about Zelda that would care about this. Likewise, Kirby fans care about how Kirby is represented, Fire Emblem fans with Marth and Ike, etc. etc.

But even so, the game wouldn't make any sense if the characters moves weren't drawing from their games. In that case, you might as well just make it an original fighter with all-original characters. Older Smash fans have an interest in a fighter not changing too radically and being competitive and interesting, but that is still balanced against representing the character aesthetically. If you want to just say "Ganondorf is Falcondorf and it's too late to change it" or that completely revamping him would be too radical for one iteration, just say that. But faithful representation of characters is clearly part of the design considerations of the game.

And all I'm saying is that Ganondorf's design is not faithful. There are other arguments to make for why he shouldn't be revamped, but it's simply stupid to respond to that by saying that it is a faithful representation of him. A trio of sword attacks that are clearly taken from other fighters (Ike and Cloud) rather than his own games doesn't change the fact that his special moves have nothing to do with Legend of Zelda.

I'd like to point something out: Black Shadow is canonically A SORCERER in his series.

[clip of Black Shadow using magic to bind Captain Falcon]

Don't you find it hilarious that the Canondorf movement is opposed to Ganondorf using his fists because he's a sword-wielding sorcerer, yet they want Black Shadow to take the moveset despite him being a sorcerer?

No, because that's a straw man. The argument isn't that Ganondorf shouldn't be a hand-to-hand fighter because he's a sorcerer, and nobody said anything like that. You even say "sword-wielding sorcerer"... but notice that you don't say that Black Shadow is a "sword-wielding sorcerer"... because he doesn't wield a sword. And the argument is more specifically "Ganondorf is a sword- and trident-wielding sorcerer who attacks with magical projectiles".

Anyway, I would certainly support tweaking the Falcondorf moveset to fit Black Shadow better. Add that magic effect to Black Shadow's grab, for example.

 

[DarkFalcon]

I've always had a soft spot for Falcondorf. I know he isn't true to his canon self but how he plays and how crunchy his hits are was always the most satisfying thing to me. I feel for everyone who wants a genuine representation of Ganon though. At the very least he uses his sword in his smashes now, but for me personally I don't want his specials changed. Warlock punch is way too iconic. Same with his choke. His faux falcon kick could change, but I'm fond of that as well. His up B I don't really care tbh.

It's a rough situation if you want a true Ganon representation. His inclusion in Melee as a clone was the worst thing that could have happened if you're a fan of him in the Zelda games. If he got added later he certainly could have been more unique, but as it is him actually changing in Ultimate is a nice surprise, even if it isn't the full revamp people wanted.

(I still love Falcondorf tho I'm sorry)

 

[Hokori]

I've always had a soft spot for Falcondorf. I know he isn't true to his canon self but how he plays and how crunchy his hits are was always the most satisfying thing to me. I feel for everyone who wants a genuine representation of Ganon though. At the very least he uses his sword in his smashes now, but for me personally I don't want his specials changed. Warlock punch is way too iconic. Same with his choke. His faux falcon kick could change, but I'm fond of that as well. His up B I don't really care tbh.

It's a rough situation if you want a true Ganon representation. His inclusion in Melee as a clone was the worst thing that could have happened if you're a fan of him in the Zelda games. If he got added later he certainly could have been more unique, but as it is him actually changing in Ultimate is a nice surprise, even if it isn't the full revamp people wanted.

(I still love Falcondorf tho I'm sorry)

Flame Choke is the one special that's truly Ganondorf, so I don't think that's a special people are wanting to see changed (could be mistaken though, haven't gone through every post). Honestly, if we got Dead Man's Volley, I'm set, personally. It's the one inclusion they could make that would thrill Canondorf fans while not driving away Falcondorf fans (well, it shouldn't). It's canon + it wouldn't change his overall fighting style as a heavy brawler. Sounds like a win-win to me. We've got sword attacks for smashes now, so I'm just looking to go a little further beyond...

=P

 

[Standlord]

I've always had a soft spot for Falcondorf. I know he isn't true to his canon self but how he plays and how crunchy his hits are was always the most satisfying thing to me. I feel for everyone who wants a genuine representation of Ganon though. At the very least he uses his sword in his smashes now, but for me personally I don't want his specials changed. Warlock punch is way too iconic. Same with his choke. His faux falcon kick could change, but I'm fond of that as well. His up B I don't really care tbh.

It's a rough situation if you want a true Ganon representation. His inclusion in Melee as a clone was the worst thing that could have happened if you're a fan of him in the Zelda games. If he got added later he certainly could have been more unique, but as it is him actually changing in Ultimate is a nice surprise, even if it isn't the full revamp people wanted.

(I still love Falcondorf tho I'm sorry)

Well I actually came up with a solution for this before in the thread. We don't even need a full revamp at this point (cause it seems we are never going to get it anyways), changing only a few key moves would make ganondorf be represented well enough while not changing (for the most part) the way he plays, and thus pleasing many, those who like Falcondorf and those who don't. I've been also a Falcondorf player through many smash games and that's why I think I know exacly what parts of Falcondorf's kit are more satisfying and what parts are more fustrating.

First of all, there's no need to change flame choke. Most of the people seems to agre that, if anything, that's one the moves in his current kit that is closer to his canon, and is one of the moves that old Falcondorf mains would be upset to lose the most. There's no need to change either the wizard kick thing from his down b, but it would be good if we got at least his custom move from ssb4 back as the default, the one that gave him a lot of mobility and is more differentiated from Falcon's gameplay wise (I think its name was wizard's dropkick).

Second, dead man's volley should replace warlock punch. Don't want to lose that move? great, because I've always thought that move would make for a perfect forward smash attack. Now we got a clonish sword attack from Ike's moveset, but I wouldn't mind changing it with this one move. The other two smashes could stay as sword attacks. Or they can even fusion both attacks like they did with that custom special in ssb4, but I don't think it's necessary at this point. If they feel "generous" they could simply give one of his throws a sword attack to compensate and make it more interesting.

By the way, for any who don't want him to have a projectile: I don't think adding a projectile to his moveset would change too much the way he plays (specially since there's always balancing and stuff) but even if it did change it, I don't think it would upset Falcondorf mains. It would in fact please far more people, since dead man's volley is a move that is long needed. Not having this change because literally 4 players would complain seems like a very bad thing to do when most of the players and Zelda fans would benefit from it. Many characters have had changes to his movesets throughout the series and no one complained, but we cannot change this one move to not upset 4 guys who don't want a projectile? no offense, but come on.

Third, that poor recovery needs to go. I think no one likes that move, is a frustating sluggish recovery that doesn't add any fun and its easily gimpable. Instead we could drag from his ability to create portals and from his trident. The move would be as follows: Step one, he creates a dark portal and goes through it. Step two, when he appears on the other side, he summons his trident and he either throws it, or he does a charge/tackle with it (in any direction). At the end of the move the trident dissapears. The second part of this move would drag from hyrule warriors (and the many appereances of this trident throughout the series). I guess you could also cancel the second part of the move with a button imput.

At this point we've only changed two moves and we've solved most of his issues, while only really losing his old recovery move that no one will miss. Also, someone suggested in the thread that he could have both warlock punch and dead man's volley in the same special move with different imputs. While I don't like as much that solution, I think it could be a good solution too, and I would take it anytime. With this moveset, he would also finally become a sword- and trident-wielding sorcerer who attacks with a magical projectile and with his fists, wich is what we need in my opinion, a little bit of everything.

If they added also a little bit of levitation when holding the jump button and/or changed a couple of his aerials, that would be the final touch to make him unique and canon, but I would be ok with just the two changes said above.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I've always had a soft spot for Falcondorf. I know he isn't true to his canon self but how he plays and how crunchy his hits are was always the most satisfying thing to me. I feel for everyone who wants a genuine representation of Ganon though. At the very least he uses his sword in his smashes now, but for me personally I don't want his specials changed. Warlock punch is way too iconic. Same with his choke. His faux falcon kick could change, but I'm fond of that as well. His up B I don't really care tbh.

It's a rough situation if you want a true Ganon representation. His inclusion in Melee as a clone was the worst thing that could have happened if you're a fan of him in the Zelda games. If he got added later he certainly could have been more unique, but as it is him actually changing in Ultimate is a nice surprise, even if it isn't the full revamp people wanted.

(I still love Falcondorf tho I'm sorry)

It's fair that you enjoy Falcondorf, I'm just glad you presented your fondness of that style in a respectful, and non-condescending manner. And I agree that Ganondorf (no matter how he's been presented in Smash) has always been fun and satisfying to play as. And he probably always will be satisfying to use, regardless of his canonicity. There's no argument here on that part.

I supposed that was contradictory, but what I mean is that while Ganondorf resembles his canon self the least of the characters in Smash, it's not to such a significant degree that it's a big deal.

If it's not such a big deal to you then why are you so against it? "The lady doth protest too much, methinks."

I'm actually not opposed to a revamp;

You have a funny way of showing it.

I'm more attacking the whole "Canondorf" movement that screams ignorance of how Smash respects different aspects of characters while ignoring others. And those ignored aspects are often ignored because they're newer and they need to respect older Smash fans.

I don't understand your point here. I've been playing Smash since the N64 days; therefore, they should respect me by revamping Ganondorf. Your argument here falls flat when presented against someone who is not only an older Smash fan, but an older Smash fan whom also disagrees with your opinion.

That's why I bring up stuff like Mario's lack of a hammer, Goomba Stomp, and recent gimmick abilities like Star Spin and Cappy. I could easily argue that Smash absolutely needs to stop ignoring those aspects, but no, I just treat them as cool suggestions.

If those things were necessary for Mario to match his canon then you better believe I'd be all for those. However, they aren't necessary because Mario operates pretty well within his canon without them. Furthermore, his primary abilities change every 3D game (which primarily serve as the basis for what he does in Smash). In 64, he punches and kicks (which is where most of his Smash moves were adapted from BTW), in Sunshine he uses FLUDD (which he also has, BTW), in Galaxy he spins (which he already does, BTW), and in Odyssey he has Cappy (whom now appears in both his Up B and in a taunt).

Nowhere in the 3D games does he use a hammer, nor is the "Goomba Stomp" so great a hallmark action that is must be adapted into his moveset. Sonic and Donkey Kong both jump on their enemies too, do they need this move as well?

Because most of them are not F-Zero fans. They're Canondorf complainers.

How do you know that? Just who do you think you are that you have the right to judge? You don't know anything about them.

While I do agree that an Black Shadow should be a heavy character (heavy builds in racing games and fighting games are totally different; they have high top speed and low acceleration in racing, but are slow and strong in fighting games), I'd like to point something out: Black Shadow is canonically A SORCERER in his series.

-snip-

Don't you find it hilarious that the Canondorf movement is opposed to Ganondorf using his fists because he's a sword-wielding sorcerer, yet they want Black Shadow to take the moveset despite him being a sorcerer?

What I find hilarious is that you're OK with the sorcerer Ganondorf having these unfitting Falcondorf moves, but you're not OK with the sorcerer Black Shadow having that same moveset. Sounds hypocritical to me. You're either FOR both or AGAINST both; you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

 

[Garo]

Clearly all they need to do now to please both Canondorf and Falcondorf fans is implement Dead Man's Volley the way I envisioned:

Neutral Special: Holding down the special button will make him do the Warlock Punch, but if you just press it quickly instead, Ganondorf will throw out an energy ball that will slowly travel horizontally (diagonally down if done in the air). This ball can be reflected even with normal moves, making it a little faster with each reflect. When the ball is out, an uncharged neutral special will make Ganondorf do a quick backhanded motion with little cooldown, which is specially meant for reflecting the ball. Hitting the ball with Warlock Punch will split it into multiple smaller balls that can't be reflected and home in on the opponent who reflected it. Whoever is hit by either version of the move will be paralysed, the duration depending on the amount of times the ball has been reflected. The ball will always be reflected completely horizontally, even if Ganondorf begins with the aerial version.

 

[G-Guy]

This Ganon satisfies me completely. Finally my boy from Melee has returned! I absolutely love the red cape, btw.

 

[Erimir]

I'm actually not opposed to a revamp; I'm more attacking the whole "Canondorf" movement that screams ignorance of how Smash respects different aspects of characters while ignoring others. And those ignored aspects are often ignored because they're newer and they need to respect older Smash fans.

I don't understand your point here. I've been playing Smash since the N64 days; therefore, they should respect me by revamping Ganondorf. Your argument here falls flat when presented against someone who is not only an older Smash fan, but an older Smash fan whom also disagrees with your opinion.

Right lol

Erimir looks at his own SmashBoards join date, then looks at Quillion 's join date... :thinkingface:

 

[Brother AJ]

I've pretty much accepted that Ganon isn't going to change dramatically. That way I won't be disappointed. How I wish he never was rushed into Melee... I do like the sword inclusion though. There's only so many ways to swing a sword guys, so I'm not really understanding the complaint that it's too similar to other fighters. He also looks like he's been heavily buffed, so I'm definitely happy for that. I'm going to make the most of it!

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Assuming that it comes back, it'll be interesting to see how Warlock Blade would operate with that large sword. Maybe the sweetspot can be more damaging than Warlock Punch, and more potent at making KOs as well. Whereas, the sourspot would have poor KBG, despite dealing decent damage.

In terms of aesthetics, Ganondorf's sword now uses the same hitbox sound effects as Ike's sword.

 

[Jestar]

Seeing OoT Ganondorf was one of the biggest hype inducing moments I've had in a long time and the highlight of the reveals for me. Definitely gonna make him a secondary and/or a co-main. Also loving the use of the sword too, especially that down smash. I never had a problem with (Melee) Falcondorf but I don't think I'll miss it either. Can't wait to use him in action!

 

[King9999]

Does anyone know if Ganon still has reverse Warlock Punch?

 

[NintendoKnight]

Does anyone know if Ganon still has reverse Warlock Punch?

As far as I know he does. Captain Falcon still has the reverse. I haven't seen it in any of the gameplay (because no one uses the darn thing), but I think it's safe to say it's staying.

 

[King9999]

As far as I know he does. Captain Falcon still has the reverse. I haven't seen it in any of the gameplay (because no one uses the darn thing), but I think it's safe to say it's staying.

That's good. I would always use that whenever I broke someone's shield. You get hit with that, you are dead no matter what.

 

[Banjodorf]

Do we have a Dorf Discord I can get in on?

 

[Quillion]

I've always had the thought that both the Falcon Punch and the Warlock Punch should get an "uncharged" version by just tapping B. You wouldn't be able to "hold" the move for variable charge, but there would just be the original form with all the starting lag, and a more practical weaker form.

Uncharged Falcon Punch would essentially be Jigglypuff's Pound, both being a nice combo starter and recovery helper, while uncharged Warlock Punch would be both a combo starter and a projectile reflector.

That way, Ganondorf would have his most iconic move, and it's much better to use.

 

[Boartobewild]

I've always had the thought that both the Falcon Punch and the Warlock Punch should get an "uncharged" version by just tapping B. You wouldn't be able to "hold" the move for variable charge, but there would just be the original form with all the starting lag, and a more practical weaker form.

Uncharged Falcon Punch would essentially be Jigglypuff's Pound, both being a nice combo starter and recovery helper, while uncharged Warlock Punch would be both a combo starter and a projectile reflector.

That way, Ganondorf would have his most iconic move, and it's much better to use.

Instead of simply being a chargeup superarmor punch it should function more like a counter or similair to ryu's focus punch ( which would be fitting considering they showed both of these moves clashing in the trailer, and the warlock punch was funnily enough a natural counter to that move despite what the initial ryu intro showed). So first up at the very least this move should have superarmor through the entire duration but also be impervious to grabs.( he can still take damage as ganon hugely benefits from rage). Towards the end of the move where he crosses his arms and condenses his dark magic in his fist, anyone stupid enough to attack or grab or stand near him then, should be stunned and pulled in like a black hole and say their final prayers before being blasted off. This way this move will demand the respect it deserves but also make characters more weary of using moves like charizards flare blitz, ness and Dk upb and counters. Given that the move will still have a longass startup and endlag, I don't think that's unreasonable.

 

[Quillion]

Towards the end of the move where he crosses his arms and condenses his dark magic in his fist, anyone stupid enough to attack or grab or stand near him then, should be stunned and pulled in like a black hole and say their final prayers before being blasted off.

I like that idea. Adds just the right touch of magic to the move and actually makes it a practical finisher.

 

[Boartobewild]

I like that idea. Adds just the right touch of magic to the move and actually makes it a practical finisher.

Thank you. But if I had a choice of what I would change first, it would be swapping the ,granted pretty beastly looking but honestly very situational and mostly unpractical, uptilt volcano kick for a combo starter uppercut in the same vain as ryu's and mario and co's uptilt. It should have about the same range as ganon's old grab have the fastest startup out of any of his moves ( frame 4 maybe?) Launch them just high enough to be in perfect range of any aireal besides down a and stun them with an electrical effect just like his jab( and do about the same damage). That wouldn't even be out of place considering Ww ganon's outing as Mr. Sandman, just before the final fight in that game, when he punched Link down to get his triforce.

 

[the king of murder]

I just wanted to say that contrary to popular belief, Ganon/dorf did use physical attacks to cause demage. In

OoT he destroys his throne room with a punch
In TP he breaks free from his heavy chains and punched a sage to death. Also broke the Fused Shadows with his bare hands.
In WW, easily overpowerd and knocked out ToonLink. May not seem impressive but keep in mind that ToonLink is able to lift gigantic rocks.

And I am not even mentioning his appearence as Ganon. Not saying that justifies his Falcondorf moveset however. Ganon isn't known for punching people but he is known for his strength so some of his moves aren't too far-fetched.

 

[Boartobewild]

I just wanted to say that contrary to popular belief, Ganon/dorf did use physical attacks to cause demage. In

OoT he destroys his throne room with a punch
In TP he breaks free from his heavy chains and punched a sage to death. Also broke the Fused Shadows with his bare hands.
In WW, easily overpowerd and knocked out ToonLink. May not seem impressive but keep in mind that ToonLink is able to lift gigantic rocks.

And I am not even mentioning his appearence as Ganon. Not saying that justifies his Falcondorf moveset however. Ganon isn't known for punching people but he is known for his strength so some of his moves aren't too far-fetched.

That is not what people are taking issue with, the problem is that his smash fighting style, while certainely making more sense for Ganondorf then Falcon ,who besides his gun has no ****ing indication for his combatprowess in his own series whatsoever, I mean just look at the cutcenes in the Gcn title (another reason why i find the smash Murder video series, where Ganondorf is Captain Popo Falcon's dad and mentor so hillariously fitting) , is far from the ideal represantation of his actual capabilities. Yes it's true that he's pretty efficient at hand to hand combat if he needs to, buuuuut if you look at the games he's appeared in you'll notice that he almost always uses a sword or trident, depending on his form. Why? Probably because he feels that it's beneath him to touch/dirty his own hands with his opponents. Why do you think Ganon didn't even bother getting from his horse when he first crossed Link and just nonchalantly fired a measly small energy volley at him? Which reminds me...... How come Ganon still doesn't have the one Attack he consistenly uses against Link in just about every iterartion he's been in? It took them 3 games before we finally got 3 moves that accurately represent his main fighting style, so how long do you think we have to wait before the warlock punch gets replaced by deadman's volley? I mean I get why sakurai thinks it's necessary to keep ganon the way he was introduced to a lot of people ( me included) but the keyword is missed potential. Hey I don't exactly want to settle for having a completely revamped ganon and just having the falcondorf-moveset shoved onto either black shadow or blood falcon either ( who let's be real, who's gonna wanna play those generic excuses for characters?). However if we currently have three different ( but not nearly distinct enough) versions of link, I don't see why we couldn't have for example a faster more agile two sword style Ww/Hw Ganon and a floaty but crafty trident wielding Phantom/ Hw/ Beast Ganon on top of the current Ganon.

 

[NintendoKnight]

I just wanted to say that contrary to popular belief, Ganon/dorf did use physical attacks to cause demage. In

OoT he destroys his throne room with a punch
In TP he breaks free from his heavy chains and punched a sage to death. Also broke the Fused Shadows with his bare hands.
In WW, easily overpowerd and knocked out ToonLink. May not seem impressive but keep in mind that ToonLink is able to lift gigantic rocks.

And I am not even mentioning his appearence as Ganon. Not saying that justifies his Falcondorf moveset however. Ganon isn't known for punching people but he is known for his strength so some of his moves aren't too far-fetched.

No one has denied that those things happen. We're justing saying that those minor details shouldn't be the basis for an entire moveset.

A few extra things I'd like to add:

In OoT, he destroys his entire tower... while unconscious. No amount of physical strength can do that. That's magical prowess.
Reducing his entire castle into dust with magic is greater than loosening a few floor tiles with a single punch.

In TP, when he performs his running sword slash, Link can contest it. And not only can Link contest it, he can downright overpower Ganondorf.

Either Link is much stronger than Ganondorf, or Ganondorf is not as physically strong as we initially thought... Or TP Link is straight up OP.
In reality, we all know that this version of Ganondorf draws all his might from the Triforce of Power. And from what we can interpret from the ending of Twilight Princess, at this point in the fight, the Triforce of Power is beginning to wane and its divine blessing starts to ebb away from Ganon's control.

Another thing though. He may have killed that Sage with his bare hands, but he still opted to take and use the sword.

(Take note that even in Twilight Princess, its shown that Ganondorf's power can disrupt the weather to cause lightning.)

Also remember that prior to the cutscene of Ganondorf's execution, the Sages had described Ganondorf as follows:

Which means that, despite having witnessed Ganondorf punching a Sage to death, they still referred to him as "an evil-magic wielder."
What did the Sages fear more? His physical strength? Or his magic?

In regards to what you stated about TWW, Link being able to lift giant rocks (which is possible only through those bracelets) does not grant him any relative amount of durability. This isn't Dragon Ball Z, where being able to operate on a level of power means you can withstand that level of power. Power output and input are very different. That being said, an immortally-youthful adult of 100+ years, whom possesses the Triforce of Power, knocking out a 12 year-old boy (whether or not he can lift those rocks) isn't an impressive feat by any margin. If anything, Ganondorf made it clear he didn't intend to kill Link. When he did mean for Link to die, he drew his sword.

That's really all I wanted to say.

 

[meleebrawler]

Why do people want Dead Man's Volley so bad other than for lulz canon? Dedede's Gordos show just how bad of an idea attack-reflectable
projectiles really are, and that example is only salvaged in Ultimate thanks to new Inhale mechanics forgoing timing.

 

[Garo]

Why do people want Dead Man's Volley so bad other than for lulz canon? Dedede's Gordos show just how bad of an idea attack-reflectable
projectiles really are, and that example is only salvaged in Ultimate thanks to new Inhale mechanics forgoing timing.

I think the idea me and some others have is that while the projectile is out the special button tied to it would instead do a cape flip that's specifically designed to be the fastest and bestest reflector in the game, always giving Ganondorf the upper hand when dealing with DMV, unlike Dedede with his Gordo in Smash 4.

 

[meleebrawler]

I think the idea me and some others have is that while the projectile is out the special button tied to it would instead do a cape flip that's specifically designed to be the fastest and bestest reflector in the game, always giving Ganondorf the upper hand when dealing with DMV, unlike Dedede with his Gordo in Smash 4.

Yeah, OK, let's see you try and do that Sheik ftilts the ball and now you have to deal with her approach AND the ball. Do you seriously expect opponents to play fair in this made-up game?

 

[Boartobewild]

Yeah, OK, let's see you try and do that Sheik ftilts the ball and now you have to deal with her approach AND the ball. Do you seriously expect opponents to play fair in this made-up game?

Well the idea( or at least mine) is that the energyball not only gets faster but stronger, so if you hit it a couple of times to a point where you wouldn't be able to reflect it ( we could apply the rules concerning clashing attacks so if you can't use a move that would at least be only 9% damage weaker than Dmv), you would either get hit, shield ( probably lose a lot of it's health or even get your shield broken depending how strong it got) dodge or jump which would put you at a disadvantage. I don't know about you, but if they could manage to make the move as close to this principle ( like it worked in the games)it would be pretty effin hype, pretty much like killing pac man with one of his own fruits or even fire hydrant.

 

[meleebrawler]

Well the idea( or at least mine) is that the energyball not only gets faster but stronger, so if you hit it a couple of times to a point where you wouldn't be able to reflect it ( we could apply the rules concerning clashing attacks so if you can't use a move that would at least be only 9% damage weaker then it), you would either get hit, shield ( probably lose a lot of it's health or even get your shield broken depending how strong it got) dodge or jump which would put you at a disadvantage. I don't know about you, but if they could manage to make the move as close to this principle ( like it worked in the games)it would be pretty effin hype, pretty much like killing pac man with one of his own fruits or even fire hydrant.

Won't that mean fast but weak characters like Sheik won't even be able to return in the first place?

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

Why do people want Dead Man's Volley so bad other than for lulz canon? Dedede's Gordos show just how bad of an idea attack-reflectable
projectiles really are, and that example is only salvaged in Ultimate thanks to new Inhale mechanics forgoing timing.

At this point, the last thing Ganondorf needs is a projectile that would be practically useless against fighters with reflectors. He's designed to be a close-ranged fighter after all.

 

[Boartobewild]

Won't that mean fast but weak characters like Sheik won't even be able to return in the first place?

Well not as good as heavies would, but essentialy yes. However let's think about this, fast and weak characters like sheik have already more than enough boons as it is, like general mobility and attack speed being a winning trait along with their light weight making it not as easy to get comboed compared to heavies, so yth should a signature move from , a character that has always struggeled with light and fast characters, not counter but instead cater to them?!

Which reminds me, if the game is going in the direction I think it's proceeding in I have a fear that the game might once again be ruled by projectile camping chars, especially now that the dodge and shield game will be significantly weaker. So what would everybody think about a mechanic change which makes moves that get spammed not only weaker and gain more knockback, but also apply less hitstun and less shield damage. I think they should also give heavies more resistance or less hitstun in general ( sort of like bowser's big tough guy) and the reverse should be true for lighter faster characters ( at least the top tier ones) to level the playing field a little.

 

[SaltyKracka]

At this point, the last thing Ganondorf needs is a projectile that would be practically useless against fighters with reflectors. He's designed to be a close-ranged fighter after all.

And it's a design that's failed for a decade now.

Giving him a projectile instead of the travesty that currently occupies his neutral special slot could only make him better.

 

[Mario & Sonic Guy]

And it's a design that's failed for a decade now.

Giving him a projectile instead of the travesty that currently occupies his neutral special slot could only make him better.

The design probably failed, because it was not executed properly. But giving Ganondorf a projectile will not help him do any better against those who can easily counter projectile games. In fact, even just shielding the projectile can be more than enough to render it useless if it doesn't have an additional shield damage bonus.

 

[Questionmark222]

I never got around playing him in Brawl and Sm4sh (I don't have Melee), but I'm definitely interested in picking him up every now and then for SSBU. I don't know why, just a feeling.

 

[Quillion]

And it's a design that's failed for a decade now.

I stand by my opinion that Ganondorf in Melee is actually the best designed heavy character in the whole series. His animations were weighty enough to give a sense of pure strength behind it, yet his attacks were fast enough to not be blatantly telegraphed nor limiting Ganondorf to a few options.

Again, as long as they tweaked the general idea of the Melee numbers while keeping the Brawl/4 animations, Ganondorf would probably the heavy who is the most fun to play as AND the most effective heavy fighter on the roster. Snake may have been the highest-tier heavy character in the whole series, but he was just a really boring character to play as, and his animations lacked the sense of momentum that Ganondorf had.

Anyway, on another topic:

Why do people want Dead Man's Volley so bad other than for lulz canon? Dedede's Gordos show just how bad of an idea attack-reflectable
projectiles really are, and that example is only salvaged in Ultimate thanks to new Inhale mechanics forgoing timing.

I think the idea me and some others have is that while the projectile is out the special button tied to it would instead do a cape flip that's specifically designed to be the fastest and bestest reflector in the game, always giving Ganondorf the upper hand when dealing with DMV, unlike Dedede with his Gordo in Smash 4.

Quite frankly, I do agree that making the Dead Man's Volley energy ball a reflectable projectile is a horrible idea. In fact, improperly implementing Dead Man's Volley into Ganon's moveset would completely destroy the moveset they have meticulously iterated upon over the years.

HOWEVER, I have come up with a semi-radical compromise that could preserve much of the original moveset while giving him a nice new tool:

First, they should alter Warlock Punch to give it an "uncharged" version that reflects projectiles. I already discussed this above:

I've always had the thought that both the Falcon Punch and the Warlock Punch should get an "uncharged" version by just tapping B. You wouldn't be able to "hold" the move for variable charge, but there would just be the original form with all the starting lag, and a more practical weaker form.

Uncharged Falcon Punch would essentially be Jigglypuff's Pound, both being a nice combo starter and recovery helper, while uncharged Warlock Punch would be both a combo starter and a projectile reflector.

That way, Ganondorf would have his most iconic move, and it's much better to use.

Second, which is probably a lot more radical, is to change his F-air to a projectile normal. We do know that Sakurai is no longer above changing Ganondorf's moves that are already divergent from Falcon's moves (see his new Up-Smash), and projectile normals are now a thing, so a diagonal-down projectile would be a great aerial. While we would lose another "technically" canon move (as the F-air comes from OoT artwork rather than in-game), we would gain an "even more" canon move in its place. BUT... it should just be an ordinary non-reflectable projectile, as the reflecting would already be part of the uncharged Warlock Punch.

There, now he has both parts of his most "iconic move", and it's in a form practical to Smash. Can't say if it will be completely accepted by both Canondorf fans and Falcondorf fans, but I think it's something, at least.

 

[meleebrawler]

I got no beef with any changes, as long as they make sense and work. I just hate it when people suggest moves based on canon
and/or recent appearances without any real consideration to balance or function, like those suggesting Mario should use Cappy.

Need I remind Ganondorf fans the uncomfortable truth that Dead Man's Volley and all variants thereof exist mainly to give players
the chance to beat him in the first place?

 

[Diddy Kong]

Yo am just gonna pretend Ganondorf wasn't ever even in Brawl and Smash 4. Who's with me?

I stand by my opinion that Ganondorf in Melee is actually the best designed heavy character in the whole series. His animations were weighty enough to give a sense of pure strength behind it, yet his attacks were fast enough to not be blatantly telegraphed nor limiting Ganondorf to a few options.

Again, as long as they tweaked the general idea of the Melee numbers while keeping the Brawl/4 animations, Ganondorf would probably the heavy who is the most fun to play as AND the most effective heavy fighter on the roster. Snake may have been the highest-tier heavy character in the whole series, but he was just a really boring character to play as, and his animations lacked the sense of momentum that Ganondorf had.

Correction...

Best designed heavy character in Melee. In the end, he's sitll quite underwhelming because he's combo food and rather slow, plus had bad matchups with the Top Tiers.

I would say DK in Smash 4 is up till now the best designed Smash heavy weight character. All his weaknesses are to be expected, and he has great strenghts to trade of for them. The Smash franchise's first actual heavy weight grappler character.

But heavies seem to be looking very solid in Smash Ultimate. Maybe this time we won't see 75% of them in bottom tier.

 

[meleebrawler]

Yo am just gonna pretend Ganondorf wasn't ever even in Brawl and Smash 4. Who's with me?



Correction...

Best designed heavy character in Melee. In the end, he's sitll quite underwhelming because he's combo food and rather slow, plus had bad matchups with the Top Tiers.

I would say DK in Smash 4 is up till now the best designed Smash heavy weight character. All his weaknesses are to be expected, and he has great strenghts to trade of for them. The Smash franchise's first actual heavy weight grappler character.

But heavies seem to be looking very solid in Smash Ultimate. Maybe this time we won't see 75% of them in bottom tier.

It's interesting how most of the heavies (DK, Bowser & Ridley) actually move real fast now. Ganondorf doesn't, but trades off with even more
ridiculous power and smaller hurtbox.

We may also have to consider that ''slow'' in this game may be considered another game's ''average''.

 

[Quillion]

Correction...

Best designed heavy character in Melee. In the end, he's sitll quite underwhelming because he's combo food and rather slow, plus had bad matchups with the Top Tiers.

I would say DK in Smash 4 is up till now the best designed Smash heavy weight character. All his weaknesses are to be expected, and he has great strenghts to trade of for them. The Smash franchise's first actual heavy weight grappler character.

But heavies seem to be looking very solid in Smash Ultimate. Maybe this time we won't see 75% of them in bottom tier.

Good point. I've seen quite a bit of good plays with DK in tournaments even if he ultimately suffers from the common issues plaguing heavies in Smash.

Honestly, if they're going to commit to making the glaciers actually good this time, they need to overhaul the hitstun system. In all of its forms, it gives every character essentially the same level of hitstun, meaning heavies automatically can't take advantage of it. The change it needs most, though is to give each move a different base hitstun value: light characters have low hitstun to go with their weak attacks, while heavy characters have long hitstun times so that it supports their heavy hits.