A Case Against Hyrule

[KoRoBeNiKi]

None of my games against M2K were campy. Just the one we played on hyrule where we both had no reason to approach each other until I pegged m2k with 3 eggs in a span of 2 minutes. Then the tornado approached first with a dash attack from off screen and sent me flying.

Lolnado

 

[The Star King]

woah dude

tornado dash attack

that's like

the best in the game

Yoshi pls

 

[asianaussie]

the tornado's dash attack takes the windmill to a whole new level

 

[thegreginator]

I can't open youtube at work to find the link but the second meeting of Stranded vs. M2K is exactly why Hyrule should be banned. I watched it last night but if I remember right they went something like 4 minutes without ever hitting each other.... That same matchup on DL produced very quick and exciting games so the fault definitely lies with Hyrule, not the players.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

http://youtu.be/D52KGq4jlMQ?t=13m

maybe m2k has read this thread lol

oh btw if the stalling rule were to be enforced (somehow, as it's difficult to determine if there's even any stalling going on since there's a few half-hearted "approaches") stranded would be the one stalling. pry legit

 

[Yobolight]

That video is basically a perfect example. It is in neither players best interest to leave their chosen positions.

If assume neither player is going to intentionally play bad and approach then we could decide to end the game right there and score it in a way similar to a stalemate in chess.

Under this new ruleset M2K would be declared the winner by stock/percent.

Or...

Hyrule could just be banned.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Okay, here's a different way to look at it.

You have 9 stages in 64, this is an odd number fortunately. Has anyone ever just considered doing Full List Stage Striking? it's much more fair and effective as a stage picking tool. If you don't want to play on Hyrule you wouldn't have to fair and simple.

It would certainly add some cool depth to the game.

Edit: I had the intelligence to realize not everyone might know what a Full List Striking System (FLSS) is, so I thought I'd explain.

You take each stage in Smash 64: Peach's Castle, Congo Jungle, Hyrule Castle, Planet Zebes, Yoshi's Island, Dream Land, Sector Z, Saffron City, and Mushroom Kingdom and strike from them to decide which stage you will play on first.

Example:

Me vs My Wife

Me: I strike Mushroom Kingdom
Wife: Sector Z
Me: Saffron City
Wife: Yoshi's Island
Me: Hyrule Castle
Wife: Planet Zebes
Me: Peach's Castle
Wife: Dream Land

First match is on Congo Jungle.

Now, to not have to repeat this process every match, take the last 3 stages struck and make them the stagelist for the match. In our example, that would mean Congo Jungle, Dream Land, and Peach's Castle would be legal during the set.

This would allow those who do not like Hyrule to not have to play Hyrule while allowing those who don't mind playing on Hyrule the ability to do so. This would even allow people who like stages that are not legal commonly to have a better chance to play on them if both sides would agree.

What does everyone think?

 

[Cobrevolution]

i said it before when chibo made a post directly after smashacre and i will say it again: i would hate to see this game turn into melee.

 

[Fireblaster]

How does banning hyrule turn this game into melee?

Also capps that solution would not work since you could still get counterpicked to hyrule and if we go by full stage list to allow bans during counterpick, then banning hyrule will lead to even worse stages during counterpick.

 

[LiteralGrill]

How does banning hyrule turn this game into melee?

Also capps that solution would not work since you could still get counterpicked to hyrule and if we go by full stage list to allow bans during counterpick, then banning hyrule will lead to even worse stages during counterpick.

Not if you ban Hyrule at the beginning. You don't use the whole list for counterpicking, just the last 3 stages struck.

 

[mixa]

What does everyone think?

too much voting, too much freedom. I like my TOs calm and totalitarian.

 

[Yobolight]

Yeah Capps, who gives a **** if the stages are susceptible to game breaking strategies.

We are all just playing this game with our wives anyway, so we would never do anything like "playing to win".

Thank you for solving this problem once and for all!!

 

[LiteralGrill]

too much voting, too much freedom. I like my TOs calm and totalitarian.

Not sure how to feel about that, the decisions are made by the players.

Anyways, it's just a thought. I know people want Hyrule gone and others don't, there must be a form of compromise. Most tournaments have 4 legal stages now, one is just a counterpick too. I don't think people want to make that list EVEN SMALLER. There has to be a better way.

Yeah Capps, who gives a **** if the stages are susceptible to game breaking strategies.

We are all just playing this game with our wives anyway so we would never do anything like "playing to win".

Just to mention my wife is an excellent smash player and has actually read everything from Sirlin. What, I can't manage to have a competitive match with my wife? Besides it was just a random example where I didn't want to use people playing smash 64 now, way to take that WAY out of proportion.

Most times, the worst stages get nixed VERY quickly in FLSS as neither side wants to play on them. I think the worst case scenario might be a match on Planet Zebes, Yoshi's Island, or Saffron City and would that be THAT horrible?

You can always reduce the list too.

 

[Cobrevolution]

How does banning hyrule turn this game into melee?

Has anyone ever just considered doing Full List Stage Striking?

unless i am mistaken how melee's stage list works.

Me: I strike Mushroom Kingdom
Wife: Sector Z
Me: Saffron City
Wife: Yoshi's Island
Me: Hyrule Castle
Wife: Planet Zebes
Me: Peach's Castle
Wife: Dream Land

First match is on Congo Jungle.

Now, to not have to repeat this process every match, take the last 3 stages struck and make them the stagelist for the match. In our example, that would mean Congo Jungle, Dream Land, and Peach's Castle would be legal during the set.

congo wasn't a struck stage, so you'd have zebes, peach's and dL. most people are going to ban z/mk/yoshi's immediately anyway, meaning you might get stuck with zebes. hyrule would come closer to the bottom. if people already automatically eliminate most stages then why not just have them banned outright?

I think the worst case scenario might be a match on Planet Zebes, Yoshi's Island, or Saffron City and would that be THAT horrible?

ever seen cloud camping?

 

[LiteralGrill]

unless i am mistaken how melee's stage list works.

Somewhat, it's how they pick the first stage to have a match on if people can't just agree to a stage via gentleman's rules. It's fairer then Random at least to me.

congo wasn't a struck stage, so you'd have zebes, peach's and dL. most people are going to ban z/mk/yoshi's immediately anyway, meaning you might get stuck with zebes. hyrule would come closer to the bottom. if people already automatically eliminate most stages then why not just have them banned outright?

Perhaps I should word this better, I would count Congo as one of the last three stages. Possibly say, the last three stages to be struck from would be better?

Again, it may not be perfect, but it's an idea at compromise at least. It's better then just arguing back and forth or reducing the stage list to 3 stages, sometimes 2 depending on the event. If you want to go that route, go all Dreamland.

Though it's a good question, why not have them banned outright? it's quite possible, as long as you could find a way to have an odd number or have a fair way to let people decide what stages wouldn't be available. There are too many people okay with Hyrule to just ban it because some people aren't. Compromise is needed somehow and this was just a random suggestion that was in no way perfect. It's just something we did when I hosted PSASBR tournaments that worked very well and I thought 'd see what people thought of it here.

EDIT 2: I spose you could attempt to hack and play on Meta Crystal, Duel Zone, and Final Destination too but I bet that most (myself slightly included) would say that isn't "Core 64" enough.

 

[Cobrevolution]

Though it's a good question, why not have them banned outright?

...we do already have them banned outright, which is my point. stage striking from a full list would basically result in one of two things: the current stage list OR an extremely broken one consisting of the most easily campable stages.

the current stagelist consists of DL peach's congo and hyrule, unless you're at a chain ace tourney in which case there's no peach's. i don't mind hyrule but i wouldn't mind seeing it go and peach's being made starter.

 

[Yobolight]

Capps, it doesn't matter if people "like it".

This is discussion is in regards to a COMPETITVE RULESET

You are still free to play TIME MATCHES with ITEMS on VERY HIGH on MUSHROOM KINGDOM with your wife, if you "like it".

This discussion only pertains to a TOURNAMENT environment in which experienced players will exercise all known tools available to them in order to win.

 

[LiteralGrill]

Capps, it doesn't matter if people "like it".

This is discussion is in regards to a COMPETITVE RULESET

You are still free to play TIME MATCHES with ITEMS on VERY HIGH on MUSHROOM KINGDOM with your wife, if you "like it".

This discussion only pertains to a TOURNAMENT environment in which experienced players will exercise all known tools available to them in order to win.

That's fine, I never said it was a perfect system it was only a suggestion. A stepping stone to something better.

It would seem if you could find something similar using just the 4 legal stages that wouldn't be bad would it? Normally these things need odd numbers but I bet people can figure out something.

I'm guessing people don't want tto be stuck with only 3 stages, or have a downhill slope until every match is only on Dreamland.


Furthermore, you still aren't grasping the thing with my wife was to serve merely as an example where I took no other smasher's name to possibly associate them with an idea they do not agree with. I'm not saying tournaments are supposed to be like playing with my wife for fun, get that out of your head.

...we do already have them banned outright, which is my point.

which is why I said:

Though it's a good question, why not have them banned outright? it's quite possible, as long as you could find a way to have an odd number or have a fair way to let people decide what stages wouldn't be available.

I know the current stage list, it's just I know not of a good way to fairly allow players to select the stages if the number isn't an odd number as I do not consider random fair.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

Okay, here's a different way to look at it.

You have 9 stages in 64, this is an odd number fortunately. Has anyone ever just considered doing Full List Stage Striking? it's much more fair and effective as a stage picking tool. If you don't want to play on Hyrule you wouldn't have to fair and simple.

It would certainly add some cool depth to the game.

Yoooooooooo this seems like so much fun! If anyone wants to use this ruleset when playing against me in a tournament just say the word and I'd be more than happy to!!

 

[LiteralGrill]

Yoooooooooo this seems like so much fun! If anyone wants to use this ruleset when playing against me in a tournament just say the word and I'd be more than happy to!!

I will admit it has a fun factor, especially if you aren't afraid of crazy stages.

Still, I can easily see why it should be reduced to the four legal now.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I will admit it has a fun factor, especially if you aren't afraid of crazy stages.

Still, I can easily see why it should be reduced to the four legal now.

Lol don't get me wrong, by no means do I think it's a good ruleset, it just seems hella fun!


Listen jobes, for the record, Hyrule will always be one of my favorite stages. However, UNLIKE SOME OF US, I am able to put my bias aside and acknowledge that it's an absolute absurd stage and a mockery to competitive play lol.

I am 150% supportive of the Ban Hyrule movement.

Having said that, this is where I spent my afternoon. Mad brah?

Awhhhh yeahhhhh locos tacos for days mother ****ers.

 

[Cobrevolution]

the way it's set up is you strike among hyrule, congo and DL, which peach's only being available as a cp.

there's also that rule floating around that you can't cp to a stage you cp'd before and won on.

so in a bo5 me vs javi:
congo -> i win
he cp dL -> he wins
i cp peach's -> i win
he cp hyrule -> he wins
he must now go to either congo or peach's.

 

[LiteralGrill]

I also get that, the issue there is people still have to play on Hyrule more then likely if they don't want to yes?

 

[Sensei]

Planet Zebes seems like the only stage where you can't stall or camp because the lava/acid/lemonade will eventually force both players to seek safety on the very top, small platform so this should be the only legal stage. I'll probably make a poll about this.

 

[LiteralGrill]

lemonade

You sir are a gentleman and a scholar.

Wasn't Zebes legal at one point though as a side note?

 

[clubbadubba]

Planet Zebes seems like the only stage where you can't stall or camp because the lava/acid/lemonade will eventually force both players to seek safety on the very top, small platform so this should be the only legal stage. I'll probably make a poll about this.

lol its been too long since we've had a good old fashioned poll about nothing

 

[mixa]

every fast food thing is supposed to be the same, but even the grass, garden, and lack of buildings? I could swear I've been there.

 

[SheerMadness]

That Stranded/m2k vid is pretty poor evidence for banning hyrule IMO.

There are a number of ways Stranded could have attempted to bait m2k into reacting. Not to mention he could have just jumped above him and down b'ed. Falcon down B is one of the few moves that beats Kirby uptilt.

Once m2k sees that he's forced to react every time Falcon jumps above him into a position to down b.

Stranded also had plenty of opportunities to briefly drop down to the same level (then immediately jump back up) in an attempt to bait. Do that a couple times then next time you drop down dash attack and he won't expect it.

There are ways to bait/approach in that situation. Stranded just either didn't think about them or thought they were too risky. It's not an unbeatable stage position for Kirby.

 

[thegreginator]

Stage striking does nothing for counterpicks. If a stage is bad for competitive play, we should put it in the ban list, not the "can be struck and counterpicked later" list.

/common sense

 

[mixa]

There are a number of ways Stranded could have attempted to bait m2k into reacting. Not to mention he could have just jumped above him and down b'ed. Falcon down B is one of the few moves that beats Kirby uptilt

ooooh
but sheer never did give nothing to falcon man
that he didnt
didnt already have

the panacea has been revealed, rejoice!

 

[Yobolight]

Text.

It isn't "impossible" for Stranded to approach M2K, but it is risk calculation is high enough to where it would be considered reckless.

If the entire match were to be played out on the left edge, the risk/reward calculation would be heavily skewed in Kirby's favor in comparison to elsewhere on the stage (center platform).

Stranded, being an experienced Falcon player, wishes to move the conflict to an arena which is significantly less risky (center platform)

M2K refuses because he is smart and knows that his position is safe and offers him a simple path to victory.

Thus, the two players are at an impasse in which neither determines it to be smart play to approach.

 

[Fireblaster]

That Stranded/m2k vid is pretty poor evidence for banning hyrule IMO.

There are a number of ways Stranded could have attempted to bait m2k into reacting. Not to mention he could have just jumped above him and down b'ed. Falcon down B is one of the few moves that beats Kirby uptilt.

Once m2k sees that he's forced to react every time Falcon jumps above him into a position to down b.

Stranded also had plenty of opportunities to briefly drop down to the same level (then immediately jump back up) in an attempt to bait. Do that a couple times then next time you drop down dash attack and he won't expect it.

There are ways to bait/approach in that situation. Stranded just either didn't think about them or thought they were too risky. It's not an unbeatable stage position for Kirby.

"Stranded could have easily approached kirby in a ****ed up risk/reward scenario that's 90%/10% respectively so this is bad evidence for hyrule being bad"

Yeah and I'm sure there is an incredibly specific hypothetical way for someone to approach a camper on the clouds on yoshi, or for ness to be able to chase down fox on sector z, or for ganondorf to play well enough in melee that he never gets hit by anything fox throws out on yoshi's island, etc.

Simply saying "well it doesn't guarantee that kirby wins 100%" is not a good argument against this evidence from ACTUAL matches. **** off with this hypothetical bull****.

 

[LiteralGrill]

So, people would be comfortable playing just Congo, Dreamland and Castle MAYBE depending on the event?

It is interesting that when you look up info on the tier list, matchups on Hyrule are in a special category and do somewhat determine things, I could say that might be evidence to at least make it a CP.

Too bad there's no quick, easy, non-glitchy way to unlock the other stages for play...

 

[SheerMadness]

Sup bestie. I've missssed you.

So that campy kirby who top 8ed the last kanto tourney, the one that just stood there and utilted under cover of one of the side platforms, is he proof we should ban dreamland?

I mean its pretty damn hard to approa h kirby in that situation too, which is obviously why he top 8ed. He beat some of japans best by just standing under a platform and uptilting. Also causing a bunch of 6+ minute dreamland matches.

Let's just ban every stage that harbors match ups where a little thought is required to approach.

 

[¨°PÞ-§°¨ Bane]

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[Cobrevolution]

Not to mention he could have just jumped above him and down b'ed. Falcon down B is one of the few moves that beats Kirby uptilt.

can we get some verification of this?

So, people would be comfortable playing just Congo, Dreamland and Castle MAYBE depending on the event?

what do you mean "would be"? everyone "has been" for many years, as well as playing on hyrule.

 

[TANK64]

Simply saying "well it doesn't guarantee that kirby wins 100%" is not a good argument against this evidence from ACTUAL matches. **** off with this hypothetical bull****.

SOOOO angry.

 

[ballin4life]

on hyrule items should be turned on. i honestly think this could be fun and competitively viable.

 

[Skrlx]

Ballin-kun! Embarrass

 

[mixa]

So that campy kirby who top 8ed the last kanto tourney,

yes,

the one that just stood there and utilted under cover of one of the side platforms

yes,

which is obviously why he top 8ed

no

He beat some of japans best

no

Also causing a bunch of 6+ minute dreamland matches.

no


I'd elaborate more, but it looks like you're shifting reality into sheerland so that it'll support your opinions. that's sheer madness