A Case Against Hyrule

mixa

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,005
Location
Isle of ゆぅ
#2
For one, the bumper is not easy to keep track of. If both players are at the bottom, you can't see the bumper and the platform won't help either. Sure you could say "don't upsmash nearish center stage then" I'd agree and the point is proven, you can't upsmash at center stage. Just like you can't get out of the **** tent because an offscreen fast tornado might come and sweep you at 150%.

the only time i can see wind actually saving someone on a shieldbreak (and i understand that this is situational and feel free to correct me if i'm wrong) is if the shieldbreak is going on as the wind starts blowing/is already blowing - in which case the player performing the shieldbreak should (ideally) have the awareness not to go for one. otherwise, there really should be enough time to get a punish before they are blown to safety.
I was gonna wait to do my text on Dream Land because it's the most important stage and I wanna do it right. But I'll talk about it for a bit.

1. You can actually stop the wind from ruining the shield brake hitstun. Here is one example (and this Jab thing can be done with all characters, though it's a bit bad with Yoshi because his jab will hit the opponent), Star King also pointed out that the same can be done with taunt cancels, I tested it and it's true. Yeah, we're worrying about shield brakes, that's how bad the wind is.

2. The wind only pushes a character off the side platforms and the left edge, which means the right edge of DL isn't really affected by the wind in the same way: characters won't fall, you can't taunt cancel, etc. So you can rest when at the right side without worries.

And I am a firm believer that if there's any hazard that people aren't really used to and should be, it's the wind. I haven't got all my examples in videos yet (I got like 4 catalogued so far, and I watch more videos than most of you), but most times players mess up, it's because they completely neglect the wind and do really dumb stuff. The wind is different than the tornado, because the tornado is just like you're playing a platform game, and you gotta avoid that thing moving around, the wind is more subtle and its consequences not that obvious, so it's easier to adapt to the tornado (even though I got tons of examples of great players blatantly jumping into it).

And I personally think that the Jousuke stage awareness after that shieldbrake is mindblowing. We should have more discussions about stage hazards - not the metagame ones, the how-they-work ones - and come up with stuff like that.

I also measured 100 winds, and, on average, it winds each 30s.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
161
#3
derp, you're right. edited to fix that

are you saying that wind happens every 30 seconds or so? do you have any concrete data info on tornadoes?
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,005
Location
Isle of ゆぅ
#4
Yes, here's what I have so far:



I used mostly real matches.

I did like soma 10min sessions of Hyrule, and a tornado comes up each 53s (average) It could take a minute or it could take 25s.

I don't know about fast tornados. But in my tests (characters stood still in safe spots) I didn't see one fast tornado, which leads me to believe that player movement triggers a chance (10%?) for the tornado to become fast.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
745
Location
dearborn heights MI
#7
In my opinion, the Tornado in this argument should be considered it's own stage hazard incomparable to the others because you lose physical control of your character to a element that isn't locked on a path/pattern. We should be looking at hyrule as a stage alone, including its hazard and options. The tornado DOES decide match outcomes both in friendlies and in tournaments, this much we've all conceded and agreed upon. When money is on the line I wouldn't want to risk it on RNG either lol. I don't believe that hyrule should stay neutral with all the evidence against it, but I do believe that in fairness to character balance, it SHOULD be left as a counterpick option. I personally believe this is the fairest option when weighed against what the community has against it because some characters need running room. This leaves it as "if the person playing Link or Fox doesn't wanna get gimped on dreamland, they can CHANCE Hyrule" situations.
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,005
Location
Isle of ゆぅ
#8
nah bro
tornados are super easy to adapt to
i mean, everyone can do it, it's just that no one wants to, they'd rather complain BOOHOO

though it's funny how this player, who also happens to think hyrule is the best stage, falls into this situation
 
Joined
Jan 28, 2008
Messages
2,366
Location
Northern VA, USA
#9
Haven't finished reading your post yet, but
a. tornadoes: randomly appear on the stage. cannot always be seen on camera, but they will make a noise when one appears. however, the noise doesn't give any indication to the specific location that the tornado appeared at.
isn't true. SSB uses stereo sound, and the tornadoes are programmed to take advantage of that. If a tornado is on the left side of the camera's focus, then the sound will come from the left speaker. If on the right side, it will come from the right speaker.
 
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
745
Location
dearborn heights MI
#10
Haven't finished reading your post yet, but

isn't true. SSB uses stereo sound, and the tornadoes are programmed to take advantage of that. If a tornado is on the left side of the camera's focus, then the sound will come from the left speaker. If on the right side, it will come from the right speaker.
I think how he's saying it is like...by example if you're in the **** tent area near the ledge, you wont be able to tell if its spawned on a platform or the main stage area. Or if you're on the left slope...same thing for the right. The audio cue is there, you're correct, but its vague.
 

Karajan

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Messages
519
#11
You ****ers want an OBJECTIVELY, FAIR method for character and stage selection? Here it is:
The first match should be a random character ditto, on a random stage.


IDGAF what the TO decides the character/stage selection rules should be after that, as long as they don't change on the following matches.

BONUS: This method is aslo more entertaining for people watching the game.
 
Joined
Aug 9, 2012
Messages
161
#12
I think how he's saying it is like...by example if you're in the **** tent area near the ledge, you wont be able to tell if its spawned on a platform or the main stage area. Or if you're on the left slope...same thing for the right. The audio cue is there, you're correct, but its vague.
this. i said you can't tell the specific location, which you can't. you can tell the general direction, assuming you have good quality sound at a decent volume (which you won't in most tournament settings, i believe). perhaps i should have made this more clear.
 

bloodpeach

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Dec 30, 2012
Messages
346
Location
Philadelphia PA
#16
Awesome! Bane you're my new hero!

I do have a couple of comments though:

I still think everyone is overestimating the power of randomness of the tornados. The number of spawn choices is limited, and no matter where you are you can usually see about half of the tornado danger zone. This allows you to guess the location of the tornado pretty accurately. Maybe this is all just bias though, wind messes with my yoshi game far more than tornados, but for characters that rely less on air mobility this probably isnt the case.

Bane I feel you place far too much weight on hyrules asymmetry. Sure ledge and tent camping suck, but would it be better if there were two tents or two ledges? The problem doesn't lie with asymmetry, but with the ledge and tent individually. Also I don't like your argument for symmetry in the first place; the entire game is based around abusing advtantageous stage position arising from asymmetry. Platforms on DL provide vertical asymmetry and consequently lend themselves easily to air camping. I don't see why horizontal asymmetry is being singled out.

Also, I disagree with your sentiment that hyrule can't take the creidt for positive effects arising from tornados. The spawning isn't _completely_ random; there are rules to spawning. With tornados, the costs and benefits of certain actions have to be weighed probabilisticaly (which still isn't easy) but's it's not like the game just randomly picks a character to die every once in a while like on a certain spaceship. I also still don't think tornados are nearly bad enough to warrant a ban on their own. I think the stalling potential of hyrule is a much more important consideration.



and again, bloodpeach will probably come in and be like "wahhh you're stating your opinions as facts again"
This hurts :c
And after I called you my hero too :c
 

mixa

Banned via Warnings
Joined
Jun 6, 2012
Messages
2,005
Location
Isle of ゆぅ
#17
wind messes with my yoshi game far more than tornados
I saw you getting messed up by the wind on stream vs weedwack.

I'll stop over antagonizing you and your views and instead try to go over what happened and help you learn to deal with the wind.

http://youtu.be/JkKDBQg7TJQ

The tree turned around to blow, so there was considerable time for you to notice it.

The questionable action began with the dash attack you did towards the ledge: when you dash attack and reach the left ledge with it, or when you roll/tech-roll to the left ledge, you'll be in a position where if the wind is blowing, you will be pushed off the stage regardless of input (not TAS'd).

Not knowing this, you tried -- I'm assuming -- to do an F-tilt, but you did an aerial and SD'd. (Dropzone bair is possible but that's beside the point.)

So what I recommend: don't reach the left ledge when the wind is blowing left. If you accidentally do it, but have enough awareness to notice what you did and what's gonna happen, you still can manage to come back to safety, a simple DJC will do it.


What I'm trying to say is, the wind is not that big a deal if you don't minimize its importance, just be aware of how it works and it'll be fine. Here's another Yoshi doing dumb stuff because of sheer dismissal of the wind: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cx1xec1VvgE&t=2m40s
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
#18
The tourney yesterday was definitely a case for hyrule.

Seemed like every dreamland match resorted to pika dittos or kirby vs pika. The hyrule matches had all sorts of varied match ups.

It was either pick hyrule and have a chance to beat pika with a different character or pick dreamland and lose to pika or resort to playing pika yourself.

Or the northeast players are all wussies and afraid to go anyone other than the top 2 chars on dreamland.

p.s. There's no way I'm reading that 1st post.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
#20
-Hyrule has varied match-ups because A$ wanted a challenge, not because he thinks its his best chance to win

-There were other match-ups on DL, not everything was on stream

-More character diversity doesn't make a stage good, especially if the reason low tiers can compete is because they can run away
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
#21
No hyrule had more character diversity because people knew they couldn't get gimped as easily. And that gives them a greater chance of winning. Thus why we saw Link and Fox on hyrule in the top 5 but never on dreamland. Pretty sure we even saw more Falcon on hyrule than dreamland.

Character diversity makes for a healthier metagame.

Like I said in the other thread, if you ban hyrule AND decrease stocks you're essentially telling Link and Ness players they better start playing even more flawlessly or get gimped pwned by Pika and Ness. That goes for top tier Fox too. You take stocks away from him and he just has to play that much better vs Pika and Kirby to win on dreamland.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
#22
I was there, I'm telling you right now the only reason A$ wanted to play link on hyrule is because he thinks its fun, not because its his best chance. Stop saying otherwise because its false. You can't just take something that happened and say why it happened when you have no actual insight into why it happened.

Again, what you saw on stream was not the whole tournament. More falcon on DL than hyrule I'm very sure of that.

Use as much rhetoric as you want, 4 stocks on DL is better for Link and Ness and any other low tier than 5 stock. That is statistics. Stop arguing with math dude. Do you have to play better to beat isai in a 1 stock match or a 100 stock match?

If you wanna discuss it that's fine but please stop saying things that are factually incorrect.
 

SheerMadness

Smash Master
Joined
Aug 18, 2005
Messages
4,781
#23
Go find me a Ness, Fox, or Link that would rather play a 3 stock tourney match vs Pika on dreamland than 5 stock. Please.

Also I can damn well assure you Sensei countered Pikas to hyrule with Fox because he thought he had the best chance of winning in that match up. He was losing to both Kero and A$ and Pika dittos. A$'s Link isn't the only scenario were talking about here.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
#24
Me, me, and me. No I'm not going to go asking people, maybe someone with logic with pipe up though. Sheer, stop this nonsensical tirade against mathematics. Maybe if you keep it up ballin will come back though...

Yes with sensei you are correct. Are you saying we should keep hyrule BECAUSE fox is good there? I thought the whole character diversity thing was to get more low/mid tiers playing. How does Hyrule fox do that? There's no one who places well at these tournaments who switches from one of the top 4 characters to one of the bottom 8 characters when going from DL to Hyrule and increases their odds of winning by doing so.
 

Sensei

Smash Lord
Joined
Nov 20, 2005
Messages
1,991
Location
North Hollywood, CA
#29
Hyrule is a crutch for my current fox and hinderance for non-foxes. It is also a crutch for people who are campy and rely on tent combos.

Instead of focusing on campy playstyles, tent combos, and possibly stalling with long boring matches, we should focus on developing our approaches, baits, punishes and developing our characters on a balanced stage.
 

Sedda

Smash Champion
Joined
Jan 26, 2013
Messages
2,393
Location
Luigi sucks
#30
Can you ask the entire question I'm not sure where you're confused.
I'm cool with cutting games down to 4 stocks because of time, and I'm ok with people saying that they don't like campy playstyles and long matches (even though I don't mind).

The part I don't get is the "a ness would have to play better with 4 stocks as opposed to 5" part. It's true, but is that a good reason? I wouldn't want to play 4 stocks just because of that. It's like the bo1 thing. Why then don't we do 10 stocks with bo1? I just don't get how that concept can be beneficial for the anti-hyrule people.

edit- ill post this on the other thread
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#32
There's no one who places well at these tournaments who switches from one of the top 4 characters to one of the bottom 8 characters when going from DL to Hyrule and increases their odds of winning by doing so.
Huh? Do you mean vs just Fox? Because if not I disagree.
 

clubbadubba

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2011
Messages
4,086
#33
No i mean in general. Which players switch from their top 4 main to bottom 8 on hyrule and get better?

and lol cobr no thanks its still an awful matchup.
 
Joined
Nov 6, 2007
Messages
9,681
#35
As Yoshi, I prefer the Falcon and sometimes Pikachu (depending on playstyle) matchup on Hyrule. I've switched from top 4 chars to Yoshi on Hyrule CPs before.
 
Joined
Sep 17, 2003
Messages
1,859
Location
Storrs, Connecticut
#40
The most recent tournament means this should be bumped.

None of my games against M2K were campy. Just the one we played on hyrule where we both had no reason to approach each other until I pegged m2k with 3 eggs in a span of 2 minutes. Then the tornado approached first with a dash attack from off screen and sent me flying.
 
Top Bottom