A Case Against Hyrule

[Nintendude]

Jiggs is better on Dreamland. Her jump heights are very well suited for maneuvering the platforms (lots of instant lands) which lets her trap people with Dair more easily. Rest combos are also more guaranteed to kill but unlike on Hyrule she can also get kills with simple aerial chains.

 

[ballin4life]

Also, the fact that taking away a stage buffs some characters and nerfs others isn't really an argument for keeping a stage. If we add hyrule back then we are nerfing falcon, now that's not fair at all right? Any stage set will give some characters an advantage over others. Its not like with the Hyrule included set characters were all balanced. And its not like without Hyrule suddenly the balance that did exist is suddenly becoming undone. Some characters get better, some get worse, that's just what happens when rules change, and that's okay.

Pretty sure in Melee several stages have been banned due to certain characters being really good on those stages (Brinstar, that one with the diagonal pipe, Mute City etc).

It's definitely reasonable to ban a stage that has poor character balance.

 

[Olikus]

Pretty sure in Melee several stages have been banned due to certain characters being really good on those stages (Brinstar, that one with the diagonal pipe, Mute City etc).

It's definitely reasonable to ban a stage that has poor character balance.

^this

even though random pokemons and stage size had an impact on saffron being banned. I allso believe that a utilting kirby on the lower left helipad is pretty impossible to approach for alot of the cast.

 

[clubbadubba]

Pretty sure in Melee several stages have been banned due to certain characters being really good on those stages (Brinstar, that one with the diagonal pipe, Mute City etc).

It's definitely reasonable to ban a stage that has poor character balance.

I completely agree, if the stage set creates a large imbalance that is not present in other reasonable stage sets.

In this case its not like either stage set (w and w/o hyrule) creates a ridiculous imbalance though. Someone just said "because banning hyrule creates disadvantages for some characters and advantages for others, its not fair." I'm saying that is inherent no matter which stage set you use that some characters will outperform others. I think some people are actually using the "it changes how good some characters are" argument to oppose banning hyrule. But that is only from one perspective. In an alternate universe, where hyrule was initially banned and we recently unbanned it, would they use the same argument to say hyrule should not be legal? Probably not. All stage sets affect the tier list but as long as it is reasonable in balance its fine.

 

[The Star King]

Jiggs is better on Dreamland. Her jump heights are very well suited for maneuvering the platforms (lots of instant lands) which lets her trap people with Dair more easily. Rest combos are also more guaranteed to kill but unlike on Hyrule she can also get kills with simple aerial chains.

What I don't get is how people say like pretty much everyone but Link/Fox is "better on Dreamland".

Like, 10/12 characters. Doesn't seem very feasible.

I think it just tends to seem like characters are more powerful on Dreamland because it's more offensive. But you gotta consider how match-ups are affected instead of considering the character in a vacuum, because opposing characters will be more powerful, too.

Anyway I'm gonna have to agree with Boomfan and say Puff is better on Hyrule, but whatever.

 

[Sangoku]

That's why I love Dreamland: every character gets better there. What's the point of playing other stages where they are weak?

 

[TANK64]

Does anyone even qualify as a "Fox player" anymore?

Um I went Fox only at last Apex... and never played on Hyrule.
Only one Congo game vs Kikoushi where he 5 stocked me. He would have on DL too, I had no idea what hit me lol (See GODMASTERKIRBY).

I like the idea of going one char for a whole tourney.


I went into Apex thinking "BRex and Ballin' aren't gonna beat me with Fox, I got dis, best Fox bishh."
I ended up meeting B-Rex in Tourney.
Beat's him in a Fox ditto on DL.
Then he went Falcon and beat me lol.
I didn't cp Hyrule or play Falcon on DL which I easily could have done either.
And from word on the street, you went like all Falcon.
After that I thought, "I'm the only real Fox player lol."
Fox players do well when they don't go Fox!
/shotsFired

-Shoutout to Solo- who I think did the best with all Fox. Don't feel like looking it up.

And yes, I'm going all Falcon at Apex. I announced this way before the Hyrule ban thingy.

I have my reasons.

 

[ballin4life]

And from word on the street, you went like all Falcon.
After that I thought, "I'm the only real Fox player lol."

Fox is hard

 

[Cobrevolution]

Location:
Training Mode

 

[The Star King]

Fox is about a billion times cooler than Falcon, JUST SAYING

 

[Combo Blaze]

Fox is about a billion times cooler than Falcon, JUST SAYING

Pretty much. Fox is way more entertaining to watch in tournys, especially since people end up just grab/U SMASH > u air chains with falcon

 

[EggSelent]

Pretty much. Fox is way more entertaining to watch in tournys, especially since people end up just grab/U SMASH > u air chains with falcon

I agree that on average Fox is more fun to watch than Falcon, but it's not always the case. I'd rather watch grab/up-smash-upair spamming than laser camping, anyways.

 

[TANK64]

Pretty much. Fox is way more entertaining to watch in tournys, especially since people end up just grab/U SMASH > u air chains with falcon

This is exactly why I am playing all Falcon at Apex this year.

 

[KeroKeroppi]

I looooooove Tank's falcon.

 

[asianaussie]

watching how people deal with fox camping is way more interesting than 'herpderp im doin a falcon combo wahey'

hyrule is banned though so eh

 

[EggSelent]

Jiggs is better on Dreamland. Her jump heights are very well suited for maneuvering the platforms (lots of instant lands) which lets her trap people with Dair more easily. Rest combos are also more guaranteed to kill but unlike on Hyrule she can also get kills with simple aerial chains.

I don't think the platforms make it any easier to Dair people. They really get in the way of F-throw combos too. That's a huge hassle when facing heavy opponents because on a sufficiently empty part of Hyrule, F-throw combos can be pretty deadly.

 

[clubbadubba]

woah woah guys falcon is the coolest. I get incredible amounts of satisfaction from uair X 10 to upb though, so maybe I'm just weird.

 

[Sedda]

yup just weird

 

[Olikus]

very weird yeah.

 

[asianaussie]

weird as a paraplegic alligator

 

[Olikus]

dont talk so bad about yourself aa. Its all gonna be allright. <3

 

[asianaussie]

australia has crocodiles, not alligators

get your facts right

 

[Olikus]

Your not native australian. Be happy they got wifi in the zoo.

 

[Nd_KakaKhakis]

Anyone who thinks Jigglypuff is better on Dream Land than Hyrule is crazy.
At any spot but middle stage jigglypuff is killing at low % with ease off of a down air or a throw.

On Dream Land (center stage) all you get on low % opponents who aren't monkey or link at 0% is a tech chase on the top platform or a back throw into an edge guard situation. Below the side platforms there are death combos on most of the cast but they are significantly fancier than stuff a puff has to do on hyrule.

Pressure for puff is better on Dream Land. Pressure for every character is better on dream land. If I'm maining the frailest character in the game whose only unique advantage is the ability to kill stuff at will I feel severely hampered without Hyrule. This isn't melee this character is not about back air pressure.

This character's gameplan revolves around forward throw. At any point where I grab an opponent and cannot kill because their damage is too high or there's a platform above my head and I have to go for backthrow that means that I'm failing at the puff gameplan.

The dilemma with jiggles on Dream land is that the puff player has to choose between middle stage, to optimize survivability but inhibit damage potential or side stage where puff is more vulnerable to get pestered to death but has the ability to kill at low damages.

Really I'm kind of butthurt because all my hyrule specific combos don't matter anymore and coming up with ways to kill the cast on dream land will probably be significantly more difficult

 

[rawrimamonster]

Anyone who thinks Jigglypuff is better on Dream Land than Hyrule is crazy.
At any spot but middle stage jigglypuff is killing at low % with ease off of a down air or a throw.

On Dream Land (center stage) all you get on low % opponents who aren't monkey or link at 0% is a tech chase on the top platform or a back throw into an edge guard situation. Below the side platforms there are death combos on most of the cast but they are significantly fancier than stuff a puff has to do on hyrule.

Pressure for puff is better on Dream Land. Pressure for every character is better on dream land. If I'm maining the frailest character in the game whose only unique advantage is the ability to kill stuff at will I feel severely hampered without Hyrule. This isn't melee this character is not about back air pressure.

This character's gameplan revolves around forward throw. At any point where I grab an opponent and cannot kill because their damage is too high or there's a platform above my head and I have to go for backthrow that means that I'm failing at the puff gameplan.

The dilemma with jiggles on Dream land is that the puff player has to choose between middle stage, to optimize survivability but inhibit damage potential or side stage where puff is more vulnerable to get pestered to death but has the ability to kill at low damages.

Really I'm kind of butthurt because all my hyrule specific combos don't matter anymore and coming up with ways to kill the cast on dream land will probably be significantly more difficult

People are bent on keeping kirby legal so Hyrule will never get unbanned or at least counterpick. Expect puff to fall on the tier list from limited options that aren't babbys first generic scrub puff combos i.e. Fthrow uair dair tilt rest or throw in more tilts if they're heavy. She loses so many options on DL compared to hyrule it's not even funny. Anyone whose played puff for a extended amount of time that's actually tried to get good with her knows this.