A Breath of fresh air - Link Smash Switch speculation thread

[Chosen_Hero]

So I was watching the matches with link that Nintendo did at the treehouse, and it looks like he's got solid mobility. Down throw doesn't have as much base knockback as I previously thought, which is nice. Also, the first hit of fair seems to be linking pretty nicely with the second. The first not having much of any knockback could be good for various things on the ground.

My biggest concern as of now is link's ability to defend against edgeguarding. The lack of tether and air dodge having a lot of lag doesn't seem to bode well for link getting back on stage without heavy use of bombs. But oh well.

 

[zeldasmash]

Also yes, Link's recovery theory will most-likely be something like this: Bomb (out of hitstun) > Air Dodge (up-forward) >Throw Bomb (up) > Double Jump + Detonate > uSpecial

I've been looking around for footage of anybody tagging a bomb with an attack to see if they can be popped like in the other games, but can't find anything. If we can destroy bombs with attacks we're going to get Air Dodge > Double Jump (up toss) > uSpecial > Double Jump (bomb pull/toss) > uSpecial shenanigans.

I can confirm you can destroy bombs with attacks. There was a video demonstrating Ganondorf and when Link threw a bomb, Ganondorf hit it with fsmash and it blew up.

 

[Flon]

However, the combination of not exploding on impact and the animation plays when you detonate it is a huge nerf to me. I guess my thought process is this. If one can't act IMMEDIATELY during/after the detonation animation, it's a nerf.

As far as I can tell from all the 60fps footage so far (so certainly take with a grain of salt), Link's detonation animation takes 12 frames until the bomb explodes and the total animation takes 39 frames before you can interupt.

It's also a shame that if Villager pockets a bomb Link effectively no longer has a down special.

 

[Fortress]

39 frames

Disgusting, I'll take Y. Link bomb setups, thank you.

 

[zeldasmash]

Um....you guys think this should be fixed when the game comes out? I mean....Ganondorf is damn near inside the bomb and it doesn't even phase him...

 

[Guh-Huzzah!]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8W02XMqKQ4U

I am not disappointed.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Upon initially seeing Link's changes, I was really liking what I was seeing from the blue garbed Hylian. But now that I have had some time to dive into some video, I am a little concerned. The boomerang looks great and so does the 0% beam. I still like the removal of the hookshot. Seems people are split on this one, but I have never been a fan of the hookshot type of grabs. The remote bombs seemed cool, but the hitbox and the blast radius don't seem to line up. Additionally, if Link can't detonate them while someone is holding them, what's the point? That's a serious nerf. I suppose you could punish your opponent during their bomb grab, but that is way too situational. I like the idea of a double arrow mechanic, but not the picking it up as an item action. That's lame. What's to stop your opponent from picking up the arrow and throwing it back at you? I'd rather you just walk over it and then you just have a double arrow. It's dangerous enough having to approach the arrow where your opponent presumably is waiting for you. Then you pick up as an item and are open for an easy punish? No thanks. Couple that with, while holding the arrow as an item you lose access to most attacks. I doubt the arrow thing will change during the next few months of development, but I am hopeful that they will change the remote bombs so that they can be detonated while the opponent holds them. Snake can attach is remote bombs to his opponents, Link should have similar capabilities. Remember rolling bombs at a camp of bokoblins and having them pick up a remote bomb, detonating it, then watching them tumble down a canyon? That was one of the best aspects of bombs in BotW! :D

 

[Tri Knight]

View attachment 149981

Um....you guys think this should be fixed when the game comes out? I mean....Ganondorf is damn near inside the bomb and it doesn't even phase him...

Yeah the blast radius shows that it's huge but the hit box clearly doesn't line up with it at all. 85% of his body is in the blast yet he's unaffected. I'm sure that will be fixed. Pretty dangerous though, since the blast hurts Link now too. I watched a video where the player was blowing himself up more than the opponent lol.

 

[meleebrawler]

Upon initially seeing Link's changes, I was really liking what I was seeing from the blue garbed Hylian. But now that I have had some time to dive into some video, I am a little concerned. The boomerang looks great and so does the 0% beam. I still like the removal of the hookshot. Seems people are split on this one, but I have never been a fan of the hookshot type of grabs. The remote bombs seemed cool, but the hitbox and the blast radius don't seem to line up. Additionally, if Link can't detonate them while someone is holding them, what's the point? That's a serious nerf. I suppose you could punish your opponent during their bomb grab, but that is way too situational. I like the idea of a double arrow mechanic, but not the picking it up as an item action. That's lame. What's to stop your opponent from picking up the arrow and throwing it back at you? I'd rather you just walk over it and then you just have a double arrow. It's dangerous enough having to approach the arrow where your opponent presumably is waiting for you. Then you pick up as an item and are open for an easy punish? No thanks. Couple that with, while holding the arrow as an item you lose access to most attacks. I doubt the arrow thing will change during the next few months of development, but I am hopeful that they will change the remote bombs so that they can be detonated while the opponent holds them. Snake can attach is remote bombs to his opponents, Link should have similar capabilities. Remember rolling bombs at a camp of bokoblins and having them pick up a remote bomb, detonating it, then watching them tumble down a canyon? That was one of the best aspects of bombs in BotW! :D

What's the big deal about opponents picking up remote bombs? They can't detonate them on Link and inflict measly damage & knockback
otherwise, so there's not much incentive to do so except to create space. To say nothing of Link waiting until they actually throw it to detonate it in their
faces. And if they try moving in close while holding the bomb in hopes of Link bombing himself, they open themselves up to Link's sword attacks. It's just like how picking up Megaman's Metal Blades hardly inconveniences him unless it's Villager with his Pocket, but even then the rest of his moveset can counter
his own blades easily.

Snake can have his C4 stuck on him if the opponent pressures, almost completely robbing him of that special until he can get close enough
to stick them back, which isn't easy since he favours trapping his enemies rather than rushing them down.

tl;dr: The only worthwhile thing opponents can do with remote bombs is throw them offstage to be rid of them, which gives Link time to, say,
ready a held arrow or just close in.

 

[Tri Knight]

Even if they go to grab the bomb off the ground, you can easily detonate it on them if they get anywhere near it. And they can't even blow it up by throwing it at you.

I'm not sure why people are making a big deal of enemies grabbing the bomb, specifically.

 

[Fortress]

Additionally, if Link can't detonate them while someone is holding them, what's the point?

People keep saying this, so, I guess I'll lay it out.

You see losing access to one move. I see the opponent losing access to literally everything on the A-button until they throw the bomb, at which point you just detonate it in their face.

The opponent can't detonate your bomb, just chuck it at you (and I'm certain it can just bounce off of Hylian shield). If they plan on throwing it at you, well, great, they can no longer be near you or they're just going to get blown up. You get free zone control. As soon as they pick up the bomb, they lose access to more than 75% of their moveset (jab, three tilts, three smashes, five aerials, and a grab; that's thirteen commands). As soon as they throw it at you, they deny themselves access to wherever they threw it.

People keep seeing 'oh I can't hit down-B anymore', and you can't, for a short time, but think of it this way.

You lose: d-Special
They lose: Jab, d-Tilt, f-Tilt, u-Tilt, d-Smash, f-Smash, u-Smash, nAir, fAir, uAir, dAir, bAir, grab

Imagine your opponent had thirteen less moves than you have. You can make it so much easier to predict what they might do when 75% of their inputs are forced to become 'throw a bomb'. Imagine having to make movements and predictions against an opponent who just loses everything but special attacks.

 

[Hyruleslink]

People keep saying this, so, I guess I'll lay it out.

You see losing access to one move. I see the opponent losing access to literally everything on the A-button until they throw the bomb, at which point you just detonate it in their face.

The opponent can't detonate your bomb, just chuck it at you (and I'm certain it can just bounce off of Hylian shield). If they plan on throwing it at you, well, great, they can no longer be near you or they're just going to get blown up. You get free zone control. As soon as they pick up the bomb, they lose access to more than 75% of their moveset (jab, three tilts, three smashes, five aerials, and a grab; that's thirteen commands). As soon as they throw it at you, they deny themselves access to wherever they threw it.

People keep seeing 'oh I can't hit down-B anymore', and you can't, for a short time, but think of it this way.

You lose: d-Special
They lose: Jab, d-Tilt, f-Tilt, u-Tilt, d-Smash, f-Smash, u-Smash, nAir, fAir, uAir, dAir, bAir, grab

Imagine your opponent had thirteen less moves than you have. You can make it so much easier to predict what they might do when 75% of their inputs are forced to become 'throw a bomb'. Imagine having to make movements and predictions against an opponent who just loses everything but special attacks.

But... but... think of the lolz. It would feel so satisfying to punish someone who picks up a remote bomb with a solid bomb blast. I do agree with your point on advantages of an opponent picking up a bomb. But not having the option to detonate is a disadvantage. And for the record I never said 'oh I can't hit down-B anymore'

 

[Rymi]

I feel like it'd be pretty unfair if you could detonate the bomb even when it's in their hands. Plus it would remove the incentive for them to even grab the bomb if you could detonate. I wonder if you can detonate as soon as they throw it though.

 

[Hyruleslink]

I feel like it'd be pretty unfair if you could detonate the bomb even when it's in their hands. Plus it would remove the incentive for them to even grab the bomb if you could detonate. I wonder if you can detonate as soon as they throw it though.

It's also unfair to have the combo witch Bayonetta be able to kill nearly any character at nearly any low percent... yet that has happened in not one, but two Smash games now... well, three if you count the 3DS version lol. I think having one of Link's low percentage attack tools work at all times isn't too much to ask for or game breaking for a typically low to mid tier character like Link.

 

[Rymi]

It's also unfair to have the combo witch Bayonetta be able to kill nearly any character at nearly any low percent... yet that has happened in not one, but two Smash games now... well, three if you count the 3DS version lol. I think having one of Link's low percentage attack tools work at all times isn't too much to ask for or game breaking for a typically low to mid tier character like Link.

Fair though i doubt sakurai meant for her to do that. Its just the nature of her physics/play style. I think you're referring to the sword beam (If not im sorry) i can agree with that but sakurai likes keeping to character. I think a good middle ground would be he has the beam till 50% that way you don't lose it instantly at the start of a match

 

[Fortress]

Yeeeeah word on the street is that Sakurai literally shook his head while watching Bayo. It's safe to assume she's going to be toned down, and so far her wiki page consists of nothing but nerfs and visual changes that make her stuff more clear.

 

[Tri Knight]

He did. Wish I had the video of the stream but I watched him do it for sure.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Fair though i doubt sakurai meant for her to do that. Its just the nature of her physics/play style. I think you're referring to the sword beam (If not im sorry) i can agree with that but sakurai likes keeping to character. I think a good middle ground would be he has the beam till 50% that way you don't lose it instantly at the start of a match

No, I was referring/replying to your post about the remote bombs. The sword beam should only be at zero percent. That's true to the source material. The bombs however, as is, are not true to BotW.

He did. Wish I had the video of the stream but I watched him do it for sure.

I think you are thinking of MKLeo. He shook his head disgusted at his own victory and the chorus of boos he received. There is no footage of Sakurai shaking his head.

 

[meleebrawler]

Spite & bias do not a balanced game make.

 

[Tri Knight]

I think you are thinking of MKLeo. He shook his head disgusted at his own victory and the chorus of boos he received. There is no footage of Sakurai shaking his head.

Ah, you're right actually it's was MKLeo.

 

[Hyruleslink]

Spite & bias do not a balanced game make.

Not implying spite or bias whatsoever. For the record I will say that I enjoy playing nearly every character in Smash. I was simply making a point on how to improve a character that historically not been very good.

 

[Fortress]

I think you are thinking of MKLeo. He shook his head disgusted at his own victory and the chorus of boos he received. There is no footage of Sakurai shaking his head.

Nah, I'm talking about Armada who was sitting next to him when it happened. He talks about it during one of his Q&A sessions.

 

[Rymi]

No, I was referring/replying to your post about the remote bombs. The sword beam should only be at zero percent. That's true to the source material. The bombs however, as is, are not true to BotW.

How so? I feel like the bombs are pretty true to BOTW since no enemy in botw (That i can recall) actually picks up the bomb. The most they do with it is kick it away which you can also do in smash ultimate.

 

[Hyruleslink]

How so? I feel like the bombs are pretty true to BOTW since no enemy in botw (That i can recall) actually picks up the bomb. The most they do with it is kick it away which you can also do in smash ultimate.

That is incorrect. The stronger colored enemies could most certainly pick them up. I don't recall which color, it's been about half a year since my last trek through Hyrule. But it is true that the red dweebs would just investigate and kick them around.

 

[Rymi]

That is incorrect. The stronger colored enemies could most certainly pick them up. I don't recall which color, it's been about half a year since my last trek through Hyrule. But it is true that the red dweebs would just investigate and kick them around.

I confirmed that they do not try to grab the bomb rune they only kick it away https://twitter.com/Rymi64/status/1012485299107127297 https://twitter.com/Rymi64/status/1012485481303457792 Moblins do throw the bokoblins at you and they do try to throw bomb barrels at you though

 

[Quillion]

You know what? Here's a change I've wanted since about Brawl and have always wondered why we've never got:

Why can't we aim the damn bow?

We can aim Pit's Palutena Bow (only in cardinal directions, but still), we can aim Bowser and Charizard's fire breath, but we still can't aim Link's bow.

It's been 20 years since Link could aim his bow in Zelda and 19 since he's first appeared in Smash. Link not being able to aim his bow is worse than Ganondorf not using his magic balls or sword.

 

[Ffamran]

Why can't we aim the damn bow?

A strange decision by the development team I guess. Samus can't aim her Charge Shot or Missiles either when she, like Link, are capable of doing so in her home games. I'm guessing it has to do with the shooting pose they gave the Links and Samus. With the Links, they crouch down in this weird pose which I'm not sure if it's an actual stance you take when firing from a crouch in archery or if it's a "We thought it looked cool" thing. In that pose, the Links would be limited to firing straight or at an upwards angle since I doubt they would be able to aim down unless from the edge of something like a cliff. The intent I suppose is so that they would be able to hit everyone since they're shooting at a lower position than if they were standing. For young Link and Toon Link, it's probably not that big of a deal since they're shorter, but for adult Link, he possibly could be shooting over some of the shorter characters' heads if he was standing. The problem, though, is that Link never used his bow from a crouch until BotW -- correct me if I'm wrong on this -- and was, as mentioned before, able to aim wherever he wanted to shoot. With regards to other fighting games, some characters are allowed to fire at an angle such as Akuma and Sakura from Street Fighter or allowed to use projectiles from a crouch like Sagat also from Street Fighter. I can't think of other characters at the top of my head at the moment. Anyway, the Links should have been allowed to fire at least straight and angled up which could play nicely with their arrows arcing. In the air, they should be able to shoot diagonally down as well. Samus I would put in similar position even though Charge Shot should have a large hitbox than arrows.

The hilarious part is that Link can angle his boomerang like in the Zelda games, but can't aim when using his bow.

You made me think about something else and it was how Link's arrows arc and the speed at which he draws them. If I recall correctly, Link draws his arrows much faster in the Zelda games than in Smash and even with a weak draw, they don't flop onto the ground so close to him. I get the idea of it by giving his arrows the ability to arc, but sometimes you'd want a fast draw for some space coverage and you can't do that with Link unless you're using Quickfire Bow in Smash 4.

 

[Quillion]

The hilarious part is that Link can angle his boomerang like in the Zelda games, but can't aim when using his bow.

Actually... that probably is the reason. One projectile has versatile aiming, and one projectile has more power. It's a Necessary Drawback thing. If we could aim the bow, the boomerang would be entirely redundant.

You made me think about something else and it was how Link's arrows arc and the speed at which he draws them. If I recall correctly, Link draws his arrows much faster in the Zelda games than in Smash and even with a weak draw, they don't flop onto the ground so close to him. I get the idea of it by giving his arrows the ability to arc, but sometimes you'd want a fast draw for some space coverage and you can't do that with Link unless you're using Quickfire Bow in Smash 4.

Well, now that Young Link's Bow has been revamped to only have fire properties on a full draw, maybe Link's bow could be revamped to be like this: Link can shoot his arrow faster on a weak draw, but on a full draw, it becomes a Bomb Arrow and becomes a kill move.

 

[Iridium]

You guys know what I want to see in the official released game? An actual wall cling and jump for Link to make a nod to climbing physics in BOTW.

 

[Tri Knight]

One thing I just realized is the potential nerf to shields. Could this mean that we have even more moves that are safe on block now? That could be huge for us.

 

[Just a random scrub]

I honestly want gliding from Brawl to come back just to see Link use that fine paraglider of his.

 

[meleebrawler]

I honestly want gliding from Brawl to come back just to see Link use that fine paraglider of his.

It's his new entrance animation.

 

[Just a random scrub]

It's his new entrance animation.

Oh.

 

[meleebrawler]

To be honest, that's probably an accurate representation of how the paraglider is used for normal combat most of the time in BOTW. Just dropping in the fight. Using it more than that requires special conditions or tools.

 

[Idon]

Honestly, I would've liked if they used that fast-travel animation from BotW. It fits way too perfectly.

 

[meleebrawler]

Honestly, I would've liked if they used that fast-travel animation from BotW. It fits way too perfectly.

That'd only make sense on Great Plateau Tower though, since it requires as shrine or tower to work.

 

[CaptainAmerica]

Honestly, I would've liked if they used that fast-travel animation from BotW. It fits way too perfectly.

I know, right? It was even like that in Brawl - SSB64 used the OoT style teleportatin with the light ring, so I was hoping that Brawl would have given us the black pixel Twilight warp. Instead, we got...random wind?

 

[meleebrawler]

I know, right? It was even like that in Brawl - SSB64 used the OoT style teleportatin with the light ring, so I was hoping that Brawl would have given us the black pixel Twilight warp. Instead, we got...random wind?

It's because he does not have Midna with him, who was 100% responsible for the teleport.

 

[Idon]

That'd only make sense on Great Plateau Tower though, since it requires as shrine or tower to work.

Yeah and flying down via paraglider would require a higher jumping point.

Every intro animation breaks lore because no character can just teleport into battle instantly.

 

[Rymi]

Yeah and flying down via paraglider would require a higher jumping point.

Every intro animation breaks lore because no character can just teleport into battle instantly.

The FE characters can do it. I would think ganondorf could,