5.0 opinions (tournament opinions as well)

[The Cape]

So after the tournament at JCaesar's last weekend and speaking to most of the entrants he and I drafted up this list. I have spoken to a few of the WBR members about it and finalized it a bit more. I have also added descriptions to all the changes as these could be the changes we need to bring about the balance we want. Some of the impressions to the set at the tournament was the sheer shock and amazement at some of the silliness in the set (mostly Ness and Falcon), and the new hitlag changes were not well accepted (if we can think of a possible way to go to lower hitlag with increased smash DIable moves, thats a possibility). But anyway, this is the list as its come about from speaking to many players and the WBR members. Please look at it and take forth considerations.

Mario:
U smash more KBG
- This will help mario to better KO the floaty characters that he cannot gimp, not KO very easily by comparison to other matchups

F smash tip has more KBG and a bigger hitbox
F smash sourspot has less KBG and a smaller hitbox
- These make the more require more precision to hit as the sourspot hitbox seemingly overlaps the sweetspot hitbox on more than one occasion and the sourspot has strange KO power.

Luigi:
Needs hitstun resistance removed
- This is just odd, having the lower hitstun of a floaty is natural, but having hitstun resistance is just way too odd

Down B should not beat all moves
- Something is up with this move since Magus reworked it and it has crazy priority for unknown reasons. It beats a good deal of moves and with its huge mobility and speed it can be tricky to counter.

Bowser:
UpB to 12 and 9 from 11 and 5
- With its crap mobility the fortress should do a decent amount of damage. The fact that you cannot combo into or out of the move also makes for a reason to increase its damage. The weak hit does a mere 5 percent while other weak hits (Falcon weak Knee = combo to KO move and Fox weak nair leads to U smash) are far better in every respect. Its very hard to land the strong hit with Bowser due to its small hitbox and lack of mobility, therefore the sourspot should do a bit more with the same current KB.

Physics less comboable (See Shell)
- Shell has reworked Bowser physics to work similarly to the current ones but Bowser isnt Snake style combo bait as he is in the current set

More maneuverable fortress
- This should still be a good priority for Bowser, even with the damage increases as it gives Bowser more abilities with it and it allows him better maneuverability while doing this move (as its very easy to punish as is)

Wario:
More winddown on bite miss
- +8 frames to this would be excellent as the move is very powerful and useful as is and can be thrown out relatively haphazardly even by a good Wario. I spoke to many of the tourney goes about this and they agreed when presented with the stats of the move. I picked up Wario since my visit to OH and have been playing him quite a bit lately. This further shows me how crazy Wario's bite can be and should definetly be fixed if possible.

DK:
Move backwards during upB on ground
- This is just silly and should definetly be looked at. If we make this possible we should consider lowering the sheild damage on each hit just a bit as the increased mobility would make this an even more effective sheild pressure tool

CF:
Lower angle D throw
- D throw to knee seems to be an almost guaranteed combo on a good deal of the cast. I watched Vist and G reg just D throw knee everyone with minimal effort. The move has insane amounts of stun because Falcon bounces you off the floor and it then links to a good slew of his moves no matter the DI. A slightly lower angle, or more base or something might assist with this since we had alot of complaining about guaranteed followups before in the WBR but something like this on a really solid character is just a bit silly.

U throw IASA later
The IASA on the move feels a bit silly right now as it allows Falcon to do just about anything out of his U throw on a good deal of the cast (possibly a free followup on the whole cast, pending more testing) and just seems like yet another odd option for such a good character.

Dash attack lower angle
- LOL at dash attack knee. Lower angle also allows Falcon to setup for edgeguards with dash attack instead of his quick dash attack into Knee

F smash pre charge speed up removed
- The fact that Falcon goes into the lean back immediately during this move seems a bit strange and the power of the move should not allow it to have this speed up. The move still sees about as much use as it did before and the change is just a bit silly.

Nair to stop beating everything and more KBG
- As G regulate said, he could just plow nair through a large variety of moves and this move can combo into so much at a wide variety of percents. It seems so odd that Falcon's nair can beat so much and then combo further or into a KO move at percents from about 0-150 or so.

Side B needs growth knockback
- This move shows a good deal of cookie cutter combos as it links into (most likely) Falcon's entire aresenal of moves and at the tournament last weekend I watched both Vist and Greg combo people at any and all percents with this move. The sheer lack of growth on this move makes it a good go to move into a knee at just about any percent.

Greg also said to me at the tourney that Falcon "Felt like Melee, but everything was just easier to do" and thats definetly not something we have been shooting for.

I invite G regulate to expand upon these further as he has time.

Fox:
U smash less KBG
- Builds damage so well and KOs lower than about half the cast too? This move is easy to do from all ranges and easy to combo into from shine or weak nair and KOs under 130 on all characters with max DI from my experience.

Bair less damage
- 15 damage on this move? Seriously? Fox already builds damage extrodinarily quick and the fact that he can shine > bair on a good deal of the cast is way too much damage for someone that builds damage quick and KOs low. Keeping the same KB but knocking it down to 11 damage or so might be a good way to go.

Dair less damage?
- This move still centralizes a good deal of Fox's game as per the tournament (videos to come I'm sure) and Fox was seen as an "overpowered character" by a good deal of players at the tournament. Fox has speed and damage building moves all over the place and can still KO faster and sooner than a good deal of the cast. It doesnt create balance in the least with things like this.

First hits of fair less damage, last two = more
- This makes fair more useful when you use the entire move as it brings out the same amount of damage, but the first three hits doing less damage makes shine to fair building damage a little worse than it did before. This brings another level of skill and adeptness to Fox.

Falco:
UpB keeps more momentum at the end of it
- Falco has Wolf upB syndrome. If we dont give it more momentum lets at least look into allowing Falco to DI a bit sooner out of the upB

Wolf:
Nair needs to have reversible KB
- You can hit this move in anyway you want and it drags them to the front of Wolf into a D smash, such an odd way to have this move work and a really weird move not to have reversible KB

ICers
More smash DIable on downB
- D throw > downB > regrab is still an infinite? If so, this might be a good way to consider that. The move also does a good deal of damage, so lets give you more of a chance to get out of the move?

Link
Bombs explode on contact with Link and Link's moves
- This was an idea discussed if we get the ability to do so. This gives Link back bomb recovery and also allows him to have more pressure on sheilds by use of bomb throw and then grapple or attack it on bounce.

Melee fair
- TUSM and I discussed this and I am sure its something we should definetly look into bringing up with the Link mains again. Fair is Link's longest ranging aerial and will definetly allow him to have more sheild pressure if the first hit is the strong hit and the second hit could be a weak hit (see Bowser weak nair) and link into U tilts.

UpB more distance? Remove momentum based recovery
- His momenum based recovery is still probably the easiest upB to gimp.

U smash links better into last hit
- Heard this complaints from a few individuals that you just plain miss the third hit on continued occasions, maybe look into something with that angle that keeps you in place for the first two hits?

TL:
Remove sideB speedup?
- Discussing this with Viet. It was a really odd change and I was trying to figure out where it came from

Zelda:
Din's needs to have reversible KB
- Very odd that you can get hit by this move from anywhere and always get knocked away. Reversible KB would also allow Zelda to do such with Din's after a dodge and link you into a kick or something of that nature on an edgeguard.

Ganon:
U tilt or neutral B changes?
- Shell and GoG, anything on these?

Kirby:
Dair hitbox smaller
- This move beats a good deal of recoveries and can drag people down off the stage quite easily, if we make the hitbox a bit smaller (like Kirby's feet) it might make his edgeguarding ability with them a bit less effective. Heard this comment from a good deal of people at the tournament (and not just about Chu)

Metaknight:
Remove tornado landing lag and replace projectile hitboxes with normal offensive collisions
- This makes Tornado lock in again and the extra landing lag doesnt seem as neccesary anymore as the move no longer dominates matchups. We could also look into shrinking the hitboxes a little bit so that its a bit easier to knock MK out of it. This brings back its ability to be a pressure move, but not a move that one sides matchups like it used to. Just something to consider.

DDD:
upB flip speed up
- This was in awhile back and gave DDD a sweetspot, why did we ever take this out?

Pit:
UpB doesnt deplete jumps
- This gives Pit more options on his recovery without giving him multiple upBs, a moderate change.

Samus:
Bombs and bomb jumps
- Bombs hit on contact and act sooner out of bomb jump?

ZSS:
D tilt down 5 degrees (all hitboxes)
- This makes the move link into her KO and juggle moves a bit less. Its already a good damage dealer and sheild pressure as the move is a bit tricky to punish due to its speed, sheild pushback and low to the ground bodybox.

Bair less KBG or give it a sweetspot
- She already has a good deal of juggle and KO options, but this bair is so easy to place and it KOs quite low. Samus has to work for her KOs with bair especially but ZSS can just kind of toss it out there. I dont even think this move has a weak hitbox.

Armor pieces have less base KB
- As soon as we can, discussed for a long time

Ness:
D throw higher angle and more base
- Same with Falcon throw. Tons of stun, guaranteed followups on all characters. This isnt a good way to balance a move.

SideB doesnt lock as well as it still does/SideB speed up removed
- One of these two should most likely be implemented as the sideB does lock well and even with the "Smash DI twice away and then jump" puts you in such a predictable position that it makes it very easy to followup off the move and the only way to avoid it is to smash DI the sideB when it first hits before it even locks. Also, the predictable area where you will be allows for an easy upB and with its quick winddown it allows you to juggle or combo into a KO move pretty easily.

Fair more KBG on final hit and more sheild damage
- By doing this it will makes the move less capable at comboing at all percents which is a bit insane due to its range, damage, and the fact that it comboes into everything. By giving it more KBG and sheild damage we can make the move a poke, get off me, edgeguard, and pressure move. This will take away the centralization of this move and the fact that it combos into all of Ness's aerials, does good damage, and has crazy range. Might be a good solution for the move.

Make downB windbox smaller
- Its a good strong hitbox, but its actually a bit too big. It out ranged Marth's sword if spaced properly and this just seems a bit silly even though you can dodge or sheild it.

UpB speed up toned down
- This gives PKT2 almost 0 landing lag and the normal upB has crazy stun. This allows you to juggle with just the move. This was added because the ness mains complained about ADing the head and therefore only getting hit with the tail and being easy to punish. I watched Count Kaiser continually fail with this at the tournament, but I have also seen myself (and other good Ness players) properly loop the PKT on reaction to catch the AD and punish the character. The speed up allows this move to be continually sent out at the opponent and makes the move just plain silly.

- Ness is in the same boat as Falcon as he was already a great character and the addition of things like zap jump just kept making him better. He is definetly overbuffed in this set and an easy candidate for top 10 and maybe even top 5. We could tone down a few of his speed ups and his down throw and fair and he would still be excellent and versitile without being the sheerly silly character he is now.

Lucario:
Autosnap removed on upB
- This brings a new level of skill to the character because hopefully he would still be able to grab by going downwards and you can therefore sweetspot with a wiggle of the upB. This allows the opponent to edgeguard Lucario and Lucario to also zoom past the ledge to attack his opponent if he so chooses on a bed edgeguard. Adds more depth and skill to the character for sure.


Squirtle:
U throw has more KBG so it cant U throw > uair at KO percents
Uair angle changed to 70
- Spoke to Gurukid alot about PT while I was at the tourney and he agrees that U throw to uair at KO percents is a big issue with Squirtle and this is the idea we came up with. This still allows the combo, but it should not combo at KO percents, which should be a good fix to the U throw. As for the uair angle, this allows you to live longer if you DI correctly, but will actually KO you sooner if you DI badly. This allows Squirtle the ability to mix it up depending on how he is facing and it will also force the player to learn the matchup better.

Ivysaur:
Auto snap flight
- When the thether grabs the edge and is either at beyond max range or is edgehogged and Ivy falls to her death it was considered by Guru and I the ability to launch Ivy towards the stage and give her a chance to live. Another possibility is to make this failed tether grab go into normal fall instead of special fall, giving her another opportunity (and barely a good one) in the situation where these things dont work out

SideB with IASA for all moves except sideB? or SHleaf (like SH laser)?
- Basically this would allow Ivysaur the ability to use the leaves as she could at BtL except in their spammy mode which firstly, wasnt overpowered, and secondly was the only time the leaves were truely useful.

_ Ivysaur overall is a pretty bad character (agreed with me by Gurukid) but is also extremely hard to learn how to play, something that we definetly need to look into for sure as she is definetly not balanced at all.

Marth:
F throw needs more base
- This combos into F smash in almost any situation. CK showed this to me and I had a very hard time getting out. Especially at the edge. A bit more base makes this not just combo into F smash as a free combo, which is a bit silly for sure.

U smash side hitbox a bit smaller
- This hitbox is huge and has decent KO power. I watched CK hit a good deal of people with this, myself included and the hitbox is just insane as to how large it is.

Make sure tips dont take presidence over the rest of the sword.
- Not sure if any do, but its something to definetly look at so that it continues Marth's need for tipped moves.

ROB:
Gyro needs bigger grab box
- This move seems to be strangely hard to grab due to how its grab box is setup. JCaesar and I discussed this last weekend and seems to be a good way to go.

Snake:
U tilt clean up
- Mentioned this in the Snake thread. Moving the hitbox just made Snake's butt have a decent sized hitbox which looks and feels odd. Other than that, Snake feels perfect I think.


Ledge options speed up
Techs made character specific
Ceiling techs global speed up
SideB and on hit upB autosnaps removed
Wall jumps and footstool mechanics fixed
B move charges cancelled with A
- Mario FLUDD, ROB Gyro, DK Punch,etc all go into AD when you cancel, my guess is the buffer. I would like to consider adding the primary attack button (A on default) as a cancel without air dodge to help out more characters that could use the assistance.



SFX:
Snake now
Ike's counter
Link's bow charge?
Ganon fair sweetspot

 

[Team Giza]

Link:
Bombs explode on contact with anything
- This was an idea discussed if we get the ability to do so. This gives Link back bomb recovery and also allows him to have more pressure on sheilds. Means you have to dodge or catch bombs to stop them.

I don't want them to explode on shield. But I do think that they should explode whenever they hit on of Link's hitboxes.

Ness:
Fair more KBG on final hit and more sheild damage
- By doing this it will makes the move less capable at comboing at all percents which is a bit insane due to its range, damage, and the fact that it comboes into everything. By giving it more KBG and sheild damage we can make the move a poke, get off me, edgeguard, and pressure move. This will take away the centralization of this move and the fact that it combos into all of Ness's aerials, does good damage, and has crazy range. Might be a good solution for the move.

I definitely agree with this one.

Lucario:
Autosnap removed on upB
- This brings a new level of skill to the character because hopefully he would still be able to grab by going downwards and you can therefore sweetspot with a wiggle of the upB. This allows the opponent to edgeguard Lucario and Lucario to also zoom past the ledge to attack his opponent if he so chooses on a bed edgeguard. Adds more depth and skill to the character for sure.

Agreed. Though his auto-sweetspot made him feel unique in early Brawl+ I think its time to get rid of it. After making him be able to attack out of the up+B the autosweetspot seems like an unnecessary strength and now we can probably get rid of it with PSA.

Ivysaur:
SideB with IASA for all moves except sideB? or SHleaf (like SH laser)?
- Basically this would allow Ivysaur the ability to use the leaves as she could at BtL except in their spammy mode which firstly, wasnt overpowered, and secondly was the only time the leaves were truely useful.

I'll deal with this. We should really try to have some try to get some Ivy mains together and discuss what to do with her. I really think she needs a lot of fixing as well.

Pit:
UpB doesnt deplete jumps
- This gives Pit more options on his recovery without giving him multiple upBs, a moderate change.

<3

Samus:
Bombs and bomb jumps
- Bombs hit on contact and act sooner out of bomb jump?

As much as I would love this, the Samus pac being too large seems to cause problems. So we might need to leave this alone.

DDD:
upB flip speed up
- This was in awhile back and gave DDD a sweetspot, why did we ever take this out?

I dont like it much.

Would it be possible to make it so his minions have hitboxes when he hits them with an attack?

 

[CT Chia]

1. this conversation is happening way too soon

2. a lot of these points are incredibly rushed or just personal bias, such as:

"ROB:
Gyro needs bigger grab box"

~It's a sitting projectile, no kidding it's hard to pick up. By making it that much easier you're taking away what's special about it. Also, it really isn't that hard. Most of the ppl that complain about it go about picking it up in a completely wrong manner. I've seen tons of ppl have no problem at all picking it up, not to mention how esp easy it is for ppl with reflectors.

"Dair less damage?
- This move still centralizes a good deal of Fox's game as per the tournament (videos to come I'm sure) and Fox was seen as an "overpowered character" by a good deal of players at the tournament."

~Pro tip: There will always be a best character regardless. The gap between the best and others can be smaller, but there's always a best. It should be an obvious hint that the sheer makeup of Fox in Smash (with hitstun) is one of the best made characters. He was good in 64, one of the best in Melee, and after the physics changes in Brawl, instantly shot up to being on of the best characters. Also basing changes off of a single tourney, not to mention the first tourney that had RC1, without mentioning the RC1 was released so close to the tourney date that no one had barely any time to practice and the metagame for it was still 0.

"CF:
Lower angle D throw
- D throw to knee seems to be an almost guaranteed combo on a good deal of the cast. I watched Vist and G reg just D throw knee everyone with minimal effort. The move has insane amounts of stun because Falcon bounces you off the floor and it then links to a good slew of his moves no matter the DI. A slightly lower angle, or more base or something might assist with this since we had alot of complaining about guaranteed followups before in the WBR but something like this on a really solid character is just a bit silly."

~Haven't I, along with some other players been saying how Falcon sets up combos so easily especially into kill moves? Everyone scoffed at it saying he's not that great and in exchange gets edgeguarded easily and combo *****. So why take away what's good about him? Dthrow is used for plenty more than knee setups, by changing that your essentially ruining a huge part of his game.

 

[Revven]

Nothing needs to be changed after just ONE FLIPPIN' tourney Cape. This is what bothers me. You immediately want to change stuff after every single tournament. Can you give the set a chance to sit for months before making "suggestions" on what needs changing?

I mean, seriously, only two tourneys have happened with this set, both had entirely different results, entirely different feelings on it, and entirely different players!

Balance changes aren't happening for a good while, we went over this. -.-

 

[VietGeek]

Cape how likely are you to agree to a less drastic speed-up of the TL Boomerang winddown?

Also Leaf should take a look at Wolf's nair again period. The move is like really good right now in all the wrong ways. If it gets "fixed" maybe reversible KB won't be necessary.

Also I'm pretty sure you can DI Falcon's dthrow into a tech instead. Sure, still a disadvantageous state, but it is Falcon's trademark throw for a reason.

I think Magus has one of those "optimal DI" images for Falcon's Dthrow in particular. At least IIRC.

"Make sure tips dont take presidence over the rest of the sword.
- Not sure if any do, but its something to definetly look at so that it continues Marth's need for tipped moves."

Where do you see this problem manifest the most? As in, what attack(s) seems to have this issue?

Balance changes aren't happening for a good while, we went over this. -.-

It is too soon to balance things. But it is never too soon to consider what is possibly problematic.

 

[Team Giza]

I thought these were just things to think about while testing. I didn't know we were going into serious business mode.

 

[shanus]

too soon is too soon.

 

[Revven]

It is too soon to balance things. But it is never too soon to consider what is possibly problematic.

Well yeah I know that, but, it seriously sounds like Cape wants all of this considered/tested/done and then released... like... immediately.

At least that's how I interpreted it.

I'd much rather work on gameplay related issues first and foremost before any further character rebalancing. We do not have all the time in the world to do this.

 

[Veril]

I'd much rather work on gameplay related issues first and foremost before any further character rebalancing. We do not have all the time in the world to do this.

There's no reason to stop all change discussion. Cape was right to collect feedback from the tourney. We need 10x the amount though. If patterns are very consistent in regards to responses, and the interviewer should try to avoid leading questions (be as neutral as possible), than we can consider the final changes to make before gold. It is also important to note that there is no real reason we can't try out these changes in BR sets. The only question is whether we want to spend the time doing that.

Serious glitches are a much more pressing concern atm.


That said, before we go gold:

1. Luigi's hitstun resistance is b*******. As I've said for-f***ing-ever. He's not just floaty, that's nonsense. Floaty characters suffer MORE hitstun. He suffers hitstun as though he was a tremendously fast faller.

2. Ness's f-air all day every day? No. I agree with Cape's idea. The move, as it stands, taking into account DJC, is stupid good. I don't think Ness is broke, but I think this move should be toned down. On paper at least, its really just so good in relation to the rest of his moveset.

3. Do we really need to unnerf MK's nado. Really? Really?

 

[VietGeek]

I agree SMK.

It doesn't go character balance, then gameplay mechanics. The mechanics are the firm foundation that dictate everything else.

You cannot make a sturdy house without a firm foundation, etc.

I think we need to consider finalizing what we want the game engine to do for us before we start changing more character-related stuff.

I mean some things can be glaringly flawed regardless of what happens to the engine, but a lot of the characters are already pretty polished. Naturally the workmanship put into each character varies in quality but we've all agreed that there's nothing blatantly wrong...at least for now.

Shall we put up a thread proposing what sort of gameplay changes we want?

I know Neko and I would bite that bait and make that thread pretty quickly lol.

And Veril is right, the 5.0 build isn't finished yet until we knock out the bugs. I know Yeroc looks like he's working on that Samus issue, and last I remember shanus got a lead from Dantarion on how to fix the DJC issues.

The Wolf thing still baffles me...although it would be a (glitchy) but interesting mix-up for Wolf. <__<

It's like intentional whiffs in trad. fighting games

except cool in all the wrong ways

silly Wolf

 

[RyokoYaksa]

There was probably a bit more thought to Cape's thoughts than some things what -went into this build without proper review from multiple people.- As far as meetings, I remember very few, if any, being scheduled about this set.

I am still highly annoyed about the arguments I went through with Magus about certain tweaks made in this set without my knowledge.

 

[JCaesar]

We don't have to re-release a new set just for these changes, but I don't think it hurts to at least talk about them. This stuff (most of which I agree with) + gameplay changes are exactly what we need to go gold.

 

[shanus]

Flawed argument there JCaesar, reading through most of these things about being too easy.... do you all forget that we are planning on lowering hitstun?

Like to do the run down on falcon, or even fox. Their current moveset links well. This should be preserved in that when hitstun is lowered, the moves will still be *fully functional* but substantially harder to execute properly. This is what we are aiming for. Falcon already can be shut down if you force an approach as any character with half-***** priority and spacing. I'm all for making things harder, but nerfing moves which now work as they should is just silly.

Also, so many of these arguments are just straight out terrible. You say fox's dair centralized his metagame when the player who was fox AND MK only got 5th in the tournament. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Maybe you should realize he was using dair too much and doing something wrong?

Fox Upsmash - easy to combo into from shine? I should get the hard numbers here, but a dair shine upsmash only works on 1/2 the cast or less. DASH SHINE UPSMASH works on around the full cast, but only on grounded opponents and who the hell will let you dash shine upsmash? False information is false!

Ness' windbox outspaced a marth fsmash. It doesn't get a hitbox till frame 30. The move right now is marginally useful except in lolness dittos.

Ness zap jump - remove it for all i care, it with DJC messes me up more than it helps me.

Ness' PK Flash speedup doesn't actually work, should probably remove it from patch notes lol.

Ness fair (final hit) I'm fine with more KBG, but if you up the shield damage on it I'm going to have a field day with DJC fair shield pressure. If people want shield breaker combos, I'm all for it

ness PKT1 - its fine how it is, most ness combos end with aerial PKT1, not grounded. If you do it in the air, you need to land almost immediately for the endlag to be minimal, or else the special fall lag makes you easy combo bait. Did I also mention G&W counters ness hardcore?

Lets see, what else here.

IC's grab downB grab is not still an infinite. I tested this myself, it is SDIable *quickly* before a regrab can happen. False information is false.

Link changes: As far as I know, link mains consider him golden.

Bowser: His current physics feel perfect, I'd really love to keep him as he is. I've gotten a ton of feedback from a ubnch of people on him and they are *in love* with him as he is. They just want more fortress mobility.

 

[JCaesar]

Flawed argument there JCaesar, reading through most of these things about being too easy.... do you all forget that we are planning on lowering hitstun?

I agree we should fix the mechanics before finalizing any character's moveset, though I still think these ideas are good things to consider.

Falcon already can be shut down if you force an approach as any character with half-***** priority and spacing. I'm all for making things harder, but nerfing moves which now work as they should is just silly.

Falcon's nair cuts through any priority like butter. That imo is not how it "should" work.

Also, so many of these arguments are just straight out terrible. You say fox's dair centralized his metagame when the player who was fox AND MK only got 5th in the tournament. Not 1st, 2nd or 3rd. Maybe you should realize he was using dair too much and doing something wrong?

Yes, he was using top tiers. And he lost to Ness and Falcon.

Ness fair (final hit) I'm fine with more KBG, but if you up the shield damage on it I'm going to have a field day with DJC fair shield pressure. If people want shield breaker combos, I'm all for it

Fair is the biggest issue with Ness imo. As long as it's escapable on block a little extra shield damage is fine, but I don't see why it's necessary.

 

[Veril]

Flawed argument there JCaesar, reading through most of these things about being too easy.... do you all forget that we are planning on lowering hitstun?

Ness fair (final hit) I'm fine with more KBG, but if you up the shield damage on it I'm going to have a field day with DJC fair shield pressure. If people want shield breaker combos, I'm all for it

Ness's fair shouldn't get a buff to shield damage (or anything), the move has only 6 frames of landing lag unautocanceled (which is low even by B+ standards). Making it even more effective on block is a terrible idea... also, wtf 6 frames of landing lag.

CF's dthrow DOES combo into the knee more or less forever on everyone. I got the f***ing hitstun and lag for that move AND posted it in my random crap thread. It shouldn't surprise anyone, I even put **** next to the move.

Seriously, though, seeing as I'm strongly opposed to lowering hitstun universally, I think we should discuss THAT first. 99% of the complaints about combos being too easy stem from people not understanding how to escape them (Jiggs vertical combos into rest are a great example of combos that I KNOW are almost all escapable yet people John about constantly). Lowering hitstun across the cast will absolutely f*** certain characters (Jiggs) so unless we do it on a character by character basis... I will be very upset. It would also make Luigi even more ******** than he currently is.

Hitstun should definitely be reduced on certain moves (some d-throws for example) and on certain characters (NOT Luigi, Kirby, Wario or Martha... etc)

 

[Shell]

Bowser: His current physics feel perfect, I'd really love to keep him as he is. I've gotten a ton of feedback from a ubnch of people on him and they are *in love* with him as he is. They just want more fortress mobility.

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people loving the new physics, although a couple people (Cape, Gonzo, myself) have all noted that he gets juggled more now.

Shanus, the test koopa I posted in the Bug-zapping thread doesn't change the physics people love so much, it just increases the KB he takes, trading off the worse 4.0-style kill percents for 4.0-style combo resistance -- I'd appreciate it if you checked it out and gave me feedback.

Otherwise, yeah, we'll have to re-evaluate all of this stuff when we finish gameplay tweaks, although many of the suggestions would be on the right track if we'd decided to leave the game fully as-is.

 

[shanus]

Ness's fair shouldn't get a buff to shield damage (or anything), the move has only 6 frames of landing lag unautocanceled (which is low even by B+ standards). Making it even more effective on block is a terrible idea... also, wtf 6 frames of landing lag.

CF's dthrow DOES combo into the knee more or less forever on everyone. I got the f***ing hitstun and lag for that move AND posted it in my random crap thread. It shouldn't surprise anyone, I even put **** next to the move.

Seriously, though, seeing as I'm strongly opposed to lowering hitstun universally, I think we should discuss THAT first. 99% of the complaints about combos being too easy stem from people not understanding how to escape them (Jiggs vertical combos into rest are a great example of combos that I KNOW are almost all escapable yet people John about constantly). Lowering hitstun across the cast will absolutely f*** certain characters (Jiggs) so unless we do it on a character by character basis... I will be very upset. It would also make Luigi even more ******** than he currently is.

Hitstun should definitely be reduced on certain moves (some d-throws for example) and on certain characters (NOT Luigi, Kirby, Wario or Martha... etc)

How can we reduce these moves hitstun individually? We haven't found any variable for it, and the hitstun function in fighter.pac is nearly impossible to decipher.

Regarding luigi hitstun, i pointed this out a while ago and no1 tested it. If you go into his pac file, and look through his damage subactions, he is the only character in the game I've seen thus far to have this 08 (i think it was 08) function in the Other category.

 

[Veril]

How can we reduce these moves hitstun individually? We haven't found any variable for it, and the hitstun function in fighter.pac is nearly impossible to decipher.

Regarding luigi hitstun, i pointed this out a while ago and no1 tested it. If you go into his pac file, and look through his damage subactions, he is the only character in the game I've seen thus far to have this 08 (i think it was 08) function in the Other category.

Well... I didn't know that. Interesting. I have tested Luigi's hitstun quite a lot, but never looked at this "function 08". Either I wasn't yet in the wbr or I just missed it (in which case, my bad)

Normal moves... idk, the hitstun function is stupid complicated. I had a lot of theoretical formula's, but they all were eventually proven wrong as I went on testing.

Throws, on the other hand, might have an easier fix. As I've been saying for a while, any throw with internal knockback will have a set amount of lag. Now, I don't know exactly how its calculated, but given that "advantage on throw" (ie. the frame window for comboing) = (hitstun - lag on release), raising the lag will have the same impact as lowering hitstun, while being much easier to evaluate (on throws with internal kb at least). As for throws that deal damage once, the char-specific lag differential follows a series of patterns.

Seriously, the thread I've been updating quietly (5.0 testing) has a ton of the information on throw lag. I'm working on plotting distance vs. hitstun curves against an optimal movement curve to look at throw followups, so that should help give us an idea of what REALLY can be done out of a throw.

 

[shanus]

Well... I didn't know that. Interesting. I have tested Luigi's hitstun quite a lot, but never looked at this "function 08". Either I wasn't yet in the wbr or I just missed it (in which case, my bad)

Normal moves... idk, the hitstun function is stupid complicated. I had a lot of theoretical formula's, but they all were eventually proven wrong as I went on testing.

Throws, on the other hand, might have an easier fix. As I've been saying for a while, any throw with internal knockback will have a set amount of lag. Now, I don't know exactly how its calculated, but given that "advantage on throw" (ie. the frame window for comboing) = (hitstun - lag on release), raising the lag will have the same impact as lowering hitstun, while being much easier to evaluate (on throws with internal kb at least). As for throws that deal damage once, the char-specific lag differential follows a series of patterns.

Seriously, the thread I've been updating quietly (5.0 testing) has a ton of the information on throw lag. I'm working on plotting distance vs. hitstun curves against an optimal movement curve to look at throw followups, so that should help give us an idea of what REALLY can be done out of a throw.

Open up the Luigi pac for 5.0 in PSA.

Look at subaction 29 in the Event List: Other category

0B000200: 0-1, 0-1
0B000200: 0-0, 0-FFFFFFFF;

No other character I have opened so far has had this function located there. It is located on every subactoin in which he receives damage:

29, 42, 7E, 7F, 80-95, 98-AA (Subaction AA is very interesting, it might involve meteor cancels). AC,AD, B3, B5, B6, CC, CE, CF

Etc,etc

 

[Blank Mauser]

Don't see the point in making Kirby's Dair hitbox smaller. You can already SDI out of it and punish him before the move even ends. I've lost a match to a Diddy who Up-B'ed straight out of my spike, reversing the spike on me. Of course this is pretty much staple with Marth and MK as well, its really not that great of a spike without them being a decent amount under or Kirby following DI and getting a footstool.

 

[JCaesar]

If you just blindly fastfall dair off the ledge, sure. But if the Kirby does it right and starts with the tip of the feet or only hits with the last few hits, it is basically inescapable and beats just about every recovery move in the game. Watch some vids of Chu, he never gets punished for it. It has a pretty big hitbox and if it was smaller then maybe some up-Bs/aerials might stand a chance against it.

 

[Revven]

idk, I can avoid Kirby's Dair with DK because I know it's coming. Though, I haven't played Chu before so I wouldn't know how well it would go against a pro like him. It did get a lot better in this environment though, Blank, you can't deny that.

 

[Magus420]

I adjusted some things to test out and played around with them a bit last week. Seemed pretty good.

http://www.mediafire.com/?muymtmruzyt

[COLOR=Silver][FONT=Lucida Console][B]Captain Falcon[/B]
Side-B         38->50 KBG; 62->68 BKB
B-Air (Weak)   55->50 Angle
N-Air          85->90 KBG; Foot hitbox shifted inwards 1.5 units
U-Throw        IASA: 40->41
Dash Attack    65->55 Angle on strong hit

[B]Luigi[/B]
Down-B (All)   X-Offset: 8.333/4.167->6.500/3.250
Down-B (Link)  2->1 Dmg; 8->4 Refresh Rate; 56/48->65/55 BKB; 175->179 Angle; 1.00x->0.75x Hitlag; 0.80x->0.60x SDI
Down-B (Final) 115->108 KBG; 60->90 BKB

[B]MK/Kirby[/B]
Nado           50/90/80/80->0/0/0/0 Shield Dmg; 100/100/45/45->0/0/0/0 KBG; 0/0/0/0->50/90/36/36 BKB; 0.70x->1.00x SDI[/FONT][/COLOR]

-CF's side-b actually like... sends them somewhere at 0% and also stops comboing into knee on lighter/floaty characters when the damage gets up there.
-Lowered the angle on weak b-air... again lol
-N-air more growth and the foot hitbox leaves the tip slightly unprotected. Going beyond this will look a bit odd. Could maybe instead try giving it TP so it won't be able to cancel out projectile hitboxes.
-The IASA on u-throw was only upped by 3 before. This removes 1/3 of that.
-Dash attack shouldn't be leading into any knees if they DI in some sort of away direction.

-Luigi's grounded down-b doesn't cover his hands anymore. I don't really see how it could be 'beating' everything before as it did 2 dmg and wasn't disjointed beyond where his hands could reach. If it was beating anything out the other attack just wasn't coming out in time. In any case, this gives very slightly more time to do that, and some potential to possibly hit his hands for attacks that can't simply overpower the hitboxes in damage. Anything at all that's out there that touches the hitboxes will clank/beat the move as usual.
-To keep them from sliding out of range more often while caught in the move due to having less horizontal range, I cut the refresh rate in half (it uses refreshing spec off collisions) and halved the damage on each hit, so after the 1st hit it connects twice as often, and adjusted the hitlag/SDI accordingly.
-Increased the BKB of the last hit drastically and lowered KBG so it no longer combos fasterfallers/strings fatties into u-tilt(s) at low damage (this was pretty dumb imo).

-MK and Kirby's tornados I converted to use BKB instead of KBG-based set KB. The lack of tumble and KB it was giving large and heavy characters gave no hope of escape, while on lighter characters it caused tumble and even caused them to fall out randomly on their own. Hopefully this change strikes some balance between the two.