Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[blackghost]

People don't care if one character is clearly dominant over the other, it's this way in many different games. Hell Melee has diversity but it's heavy in Fox. The difference is Melee allows for many different styles of Fox, I can watch a fox ditto and see a clear distinction between the two styles of Fox, despite Melee going on for 17 years people still enjoy watching Fox.

cannot disagree less. bayonetta has a lot of variations of play. lima, mistake, and zack all play the character very differently. use of which time, which combos they go for, edge guarding approaches, and much more.
characters like sonic (outside sgk), dk, mario, and diddy are characters i cans actually are samey. smash 4 does allow for variety of play but the removal of options in customs hurt that (not starting an argument over them but objectively it was th eremoval of options) and cetain characters playerbases simply never diversified or innovated. the melee community is built on innovaiton. in smash 4 ryu, cloud, bayonetta, corrin, shulk, marth, mewtwo, and megaman are playerbases that did innovate new combos came from these communities, consistent growth came from these characters.

the comparison you made in sports is not the same. captain zack and lima are not away teams or athletes. they are not on the road. this is not east coast vs. west coast and the booing is not in the spirit of competition it comes from spite and disdain for their characters. Most healthy sports rivalvaries come from "I dislike them becuase they are the other" but while i was in college the schools we did the most events with were florida and miami even tho i was at fsu. the competition stuck to the field with the booing and general treatment of many bayonetta players which is documented it simply doesnt. you want esports taken seriously or even if you want smash community taken seriously this entire act needs to stop. it wouldnt happen anywhere else. if cammy wins sfv tomorrow the crowd wont boo. When cell or kid buu wins dbfz the crowd wont boo.

 

[Minordeth]

A character with a range of good options for any given situation is going to have multiple ways to play by default. Every top tier fits this profile. Unfamiliarity with a character will always inhibit the ability to differentiate play styles.

News flash: Mango’s Fox and Armada’s Fox look the same to someone unfamiliar with the character. The Smash community takes this fact for granted all the time.

Every time I see a “X top tier character mains all play the same” I see this: “I don’t actually understand this character, and I’m projecting my ignorance.”

Bayonetta, Rosa, Cloud, and whoever, become vastly more exciting when you actually put some time in to understanding how they work and actually *gasp* use them yourself.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Smash 4 does not offer the same amount of options that Melee does, by the fact alone you aren't going to have as drastic of a difference in playstyle. Yes every Bayo or Melee fox looks the same to a casual but we aren't talking about causals here. Those people who left EVO grands were not casuals. The people still tuning into watch smash 4 at this point in its lifespan are not casuals anymore. Casuals would just move on after the first Bayo ladder if they didn't like it. These are people within the community who actively want to still enjoy this game. I'm not okay with people attacking the people who choose to use these characters but I'm also not okay with any dislike of the character by being dismissed as "wrong" and that people should be expected to stay and watch something they don't enjoy.

And this definitely happens in other games, fan bases and sport in general, honestly what happens in Smash is pretty tame compared to others sports. Not condoning it, either way.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I want to point out something that nobody is pointing out the reason that lima and zack got so far is not because of Bayonetta but because of all the upsets that happened at this tournament

 

[EMT~]

Admittedly, I've always strongly disliked playing against Bayo, but I can't justify the toxicity that the community has towards her or her players. It's not at all fitting for a community's competitive spirit. Focusing on the positives of EVO, though, a lot of players showed the hell up (Raito, MVD, Nietono, Choco), and that made things super fun to watch.

People don't care if one character is clearly dominant over the other, it's this way in many different games. Hell Melee has diversity but it's heavy in Fox. The difference is Melee allows for many different styles of Fox, I can watch a fox ditto and see a clear distinction between the two styles of Fox, despite Melee going on for 17 years people still enjoy watching Fox.

I've long believed that people don't mind Fox because counterplay against Fox is extremely well-developed, while people dislike Bayo because counterplay against her isn't nearly as well-developed. It's the same reason people hate Jiggs in Melee even though she isn't OP or the best character in the game. When counterplay isn't as well-known for a character, it's extremely easy to feel frustrated and helpless playing against that character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I want to point out something that nobody is pointing out the reason that lima and zack got so far is not because of Bayonetta but because of all the upsets that happened at this tournament

The Bo5 sets happening late in the tourney is also a factor.

 

[Ordeaux26]

The Bo5 sets happening late in the tourney is also a factor.

this one of the reason if have never like the way that Evo is set up for smash 4 Bo3 sets just aren't suited for smash 4

 

[Lord Dio]

here's my 2 cents, though it won't matter much:
The worst part of EVO wasn't the brackets being bo3, or the upsets, or even to some extent the presence of bayo in top 4.
It was the attitude of the audience, both the ones present and the ones following on media platforms.
You can see tweets from top players and voices in the community expressing anger and disappointment with this year, and I think a top player tweeted how a good portion of the crowd left after nietono lost. It's saddening further because many of these people have also defended bayonetta and her players in the past (VoiD seemed pretty upset and had been defending bayo hate at SnS, homey Dabuz apparently seemed to be upset but also congratulated lima, so he might be saying that stuff sarcastically, I don't really know what to make of some of those tweets...).
Of course......the terminal cancer that is twitch chat. I saw numerous insults against lima, zack, and mistake, many of them lgbt-based slurs (though I won't delve into that bc it'd warrant a warning at the least for not being an appropriate place of discussion).
But really, the attitude that this community seems to have taken towards EVO is just disappointing, and disgusting.

Go do something else. Do some yoga or stretching, go for a walk, do yardwork, schoolwork if you have it.
Take your mind off EVO.

But as TDK said, "I'm just a nobody, so who cares?"
:/

 

[Ordeaux26]

here's my 2 cents, though it won't matter much:
The worst part of EVO wasn't the brackets being bo3, or the upsets, or even to some extent the presence of bayo in top 4.
It was the attitude of the audience, both the ones present and the ones following on media platforms.
You can see tweets from top players and voices in the community expressing anger and disappointment with this year, and I think a top player tweeted how a good portion of the crowd left after nietono lost. It's saddening further because many of these people have also defended bayonetta and her players in the past (VoiD seemed pretty upset and had been defending bayo hate at SnS, homey Dabuz apparently seemed to be upset but also congratulated lima, so he might be saying that stuff sarcastically, I don't really know what to make of some of those tweets...).
Of course......the terminal cancer that is twitch chat. I saw numerous insults against lima, zack, and mistake, many of them lgbt-based slurs (though I won't delve into that bc it'd warrant a warning at the least for not being an appropriate place of discussion).
But really, the attitude that this community seems to have taken towards EVO is just disappointing, and disgusting.

Go do something else. Do some yoga or stretching, go for a walk, do yardwork, schoolwork if you have it.
Take your mind off EVO.

But as TDK said, "I'm just a nobody, so who cares?"
:/

another thing is because of the community even if smash ultimate comes out and its well balanced (i still think smash 4 is well balanced despite its problems) and Bayonetta is nerfed to the point of being useless people will just complain about the next character and then the next and then the next and it will start all over again

if the community doesn't change ultimate wont solve anything

 

[Wintermelon43]

I want to point out something that nobody is pointing out the reason that lima and zack got so far is not because of Bayonetta but because of all the upsets that happened at this tournament

Well, it's more like they got so far because they're very good players. Upsets help with that but to get grand finals at EVOI you have to be really good at the game.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Well, it's more like they got so far because they're very good players. Upsets help with that but to get grand finals at EVOI you have to be really good at the game.

I agree with you on that but its probably a combination of the two

 

[J0eyboi]

homey Dabuz apparently seemed to be upset but also congratulated lima, so he might be saying that stuff sarcastically, I don't really know what to make of some of those tweets...).

I checked Dabuz's Twitter, and he was definitely upset, but he mostly seemed upset with himself for not making top 8 and the community (he was the one who tweeted that a bunch of people left after nietono lost). Top players in general seemed more upset about how Lima and Zack weren't taking it seriously than anything, which makes sense.

Of course......the terminal cancer that is twitch chat. I saw numerous insults against lima, zack, and mistake, many of them lgbt-based slurs (though I won't delve into that bc it'd warrant a warning at the least for not being an appropriate place of discussion).

Twitch chat is very rarely not horrible.

I've long believed that people don't mind Fox because counterplay against Fox is extremely well-developed, while people dislike Bayo because counterplay against her isn't nearly as well-developed. It's the same reason people hate Jiggs in Melee even though she isn't OP or the best character in the game. When counterplay isn't as well-known for a character, it's extremely easy to feel frustrated and helpless playing against that character.

I don't think the problem with Bayo is the lack of developed counterplay, at least not anymore (though it could be partially due to lack of knowledge about said counterplay). I also don't think that's the problem with Jiggs; anyone who plays Fox (which is most people) can just force her to approach and then jab-upsmash. The problem is the lack of a solid win condition. With Melee Fox, he may be better than you at basically everything, but he's complete combo food, so you only need a couple good hits from neutral to take a stock. Melee ICs may be able to kill you off a grab, but separate them and they can't really do much (in most matchups).

Jiggs doesn't have anything like that. She's extremely difficult to combo, near-impossible to edgeguard, and extremely hard for most characters to kill. You can beat Puff in neutral, but doing so won't often give you anything other than a reset to neutral. Meanwhile, Puff capitalizes hard on any mistakes you make, often being able to take a stock off a single mistake in disadvantage. Because of that, risk-reward is always in Puff's favor, which means the mental pressure is always on her opponent, and that makes fighting Puff extremely stressful. That stress, combined with the bad risk-reward, will make you want to play carefully against her, but the more carefully you play, the more you'll miss punish opportunities. The more you miss punish opportunities, the longer the game lasts, and the longer the game lasts, the more stressful it becomes. Decision fatigue starts to set in, and you start making more mistakes, which Puff then kills you for. People don't hate Puff because there's not enough counterplay for her, they hate her because there is no counterplay to stress.

Bayo's much the same way. She's not quite so good at killing you off a single mistake, and she can actually be combo'd, but fighting her is extremely stressful in a way few characters can match, made even worse by her grappler-like offense and Witch Time (especially Witch Time).

So are we going to agree that Bayo deserves to be in another tier? Even without Tweek. 2 bayos made top 2 and another made top 4 at Evo. Bayo clearly is on an entirely different league than any character in Smash 4 and is clearly superior to Cloud by a large margin.

No.

 

[ARGHETH]

and I think a top player tweeted how a good portion of the crowd left after nietono lost.

I mean...what do you want the crowd to do? They didn't like it, so they went to go do something else. EVO is expensive as hell, people want to get their money's worth.
(Dabuz and Mistake tweeted it).

 

[MarioManTAW]

I want to point out something that nobody is pointing out the reason that lima and zack got so far is not because of Bayonetta but because of all the upsets that happened at this tournament

That kind of got me thinking on how upsets/DQs affected various players' bracket runs.
Projected vs. Actual bracket runs for each of the top 8 [Losses marked in red], with potential turning points in achieving top 8 following when applicable:

Lima

Spoiler

Projected: Lea->ESAM->Tweek->Raito->Choco->Out at 13th
Actual: Lea->ESAM->takera->falln->Mistake->CaptainZack->CaptainZack->CaptainZack->1st place
Turning points: Tweek DQ, falln>Cosmos, upsets over Mistake and CaptainZack

CaptainZack

Spoiler

Projected: kept->Nietono->VoiD->MkLeo->komorikiri->Salem->Out at 7th
Actual: kept->Ki->VoiD->Raito->Mr. E->Lima->Nietono->Lima->Lima->Out at 2nd
Turning points: MkLeo DQ, MVD>Nairo, Mr. E>Salem

Nietono

Spoiler

Projected: Ki->CaptainZack->VaLoR->Captain L->Out at 25th
Actual: Ki->Drystan->Vermillion->VaLoR->Charlie->Diablo->Shuton->falln->Choco->Mr. E->Mistake->CaptainZack->Out at 3rd

Mistake

Spoiler

Projected: Strike->Vinnie->komorikiri->Dabuz->VoiD->Cosmos->Nairo->Out at 5th
Actual: Strike->Vinnie->Ally->Dabuz->Lima->MVD->Nietono->Out at 4th
Turning points: upset over Dabuz

MVD

Spoiler

Projected: Karna->Nairo->Kiki->Kameme->Out at 25th
Actual: Karna->Nairo->Diablo->Mr. E->Cosmos->Raito->Mistake->Out at 5th
Turning points: upsets over Nairo and Cosmos, Diablo>Larry Lurr, Diablo>Kameme

Mr. E

Spoiler

Projected: BestNess->Salem->Phoenix->Shuton->Out at 25th
Actual: BestNess->Salem->Shuton->MVD->CaptainZack->Nietono->Out at 5th
Turning points: upsets over Salem and Shuton, MVD>Nairo

Raito

Spoiler

Projected: Stroder->ANTi->Ac->Manny->Lima->Out at 17th
Actual: Stroder->yuzu->crow->CaptainZack->Elegant->MVD->Out at 7th
Turning Points: yuzu>ANTi, MKLeo DQ, upset over Elegant

Choco

Spoiler

Projected: Zenyou->falln->Cosmos->Captain L->Lima->Salem->Out at 9th
Actual: Zenyou->falln->Z->Larry Lurr->VoiD->ESAM->Dabuz->Nietono->Out at 7th

My verdict (note, upset vs notable win is based on seeding):

Spoiler

Lima likely benefited greatly from Tweek's DQ and possibly somewhat from falln>Cosmos. He did, however, get upsets on Mistake and CaptainZack (and notable wins on ESAM and falln) on his own.
CaptainZack was possibly the biggest beneficiary of bracket luck, with all three of his big bracket threats (MkLeo, Nairo, Salem) dropping early, giving him a "free" (no upsets necessary) run to Winners Finals. He did still obtain a notable win on VoiD.
If anything, Nietono made his run harder by losing early, but managed to bring it back in losers, upsetting Shuton, falln, Choco, and Mistake, as well as notably defeating Charlie and Mr. E.
Bracket luck did not affect much for Mistake, with Ally vs komorikiri likely not making much of a difference. The big boon that Mistake's run did have was his win on Dabuz.
MVD's bracket seemed to show a mix of luck and skill as he upset Nairo, Cosmos, and Raito (with a notable win on Karna) while avoiding Larry Lurr/Kameme, both of whom were upset by Diablo.
Mr. E's bracket likewise included both luck and skill, as he upset Salem and Shuton and got a notable win on MVD but did not have to fight Nairo, Larry Lurr, or Kameme due to all three being upset beforehand.
Along with CaptainZack, Raito was one of the luckier players in top 8, as both ANTi and MkLeo dropped before reaching Raito. Despite this, he did still upset Elegant to make top 8.
Choco falls into a similar realm to Nietono, losing earlier than expected, then making an insane losers run, in this case upsetting VoiD and Dabuz and notably defeating Zenyou, Larry Lurr and ESAM.

 

[The_Bookworm]

That kind of got me thinking on how upsets/DQs affected various players' bracket runs.
Projected vs. Actual bracket runs for each of the top 8 [Losses marked in red], with potential turning points in achieving top 8 following when applicable:

Lima

Spoiler

Projected: Lea->ESAM->Tweek->Raito->Choco->Out at 13th
Actual: Lea->ESAM->takera->falln->Mistake->CaptainZack->CaptainZack->CaptainZack->1st place
Turning points: Tweek DQ, falln>Cosmos, upsets over Mistake and CaptainZack

CaptainZack

Spoiler

Projected: kept->Nietono->VoiD->MkLeo->komorikiri->Salem->Out at 7th
Actual: kept->Ki->VoiD->Raito->Mr. E->Lima->Nietono->Lima->Lima->Out at 2nd
Turning points: MkLeo DQ, MVD>Nairo, Mr. E>Salem

Nietono

Spoiler

Projected: Ki->CaptainZack->VaLoR->Captain L->Out at 25th
Actual: Ki->Drystan->Vermillion->VaLoR->Charlie->Diablo->Shuton->falln->Choco->Mr. E->Mistake->CaptainZack->Out at 3rd

Mistake

Spoiler

Projected: Strike->Vinnie->komorikiri->Dabuz->VoiD->Cosmos->Nairo->Out at 5th
Actual: Strike->Vinnie->Ally->Dabuz->Lima->MVD->Nietono->Out at 4th
Turning points: upset over Dabuz

MVD

Spoiler

Projected: Karna->Nairo->Kiki->Kameme->Out at 25th
Actual: Karna->Nairo->Diablo->Mr. E->Cosmos->Raito->Mistake->Out at 5th
Turning points: upsets over Nairo and Cosmos, Diablo>Larry Lurr, Diablo>Kameme

Mr. E

Spoiler

Projected: BestNess->Salem->Phoenix->Shuton->Out at 25th
Actual: BestNess->Salem->Shuton->MVD->CaptainZack->Nietono->Out at 5th
Turning points: upsets over Salem and Shuton, MVD>Nairo

Raito

Spoiler

Projected: Stroder->ANTi->Ac->Manny->Lima->Out at 17th
Actual: Stroder->yuzu->crow->CaptainZack->Elegant->MVD->Out at 7th
Turning Points: yuzu>ANTi, MKLeo DQ, upset over Elegant

Choco

Spoiler

Projected: Zenyou->falln->Cosmos->Captain L->Lima->Salem->Out at 9th
Actual: Zenyou->falln->Z->Larry Lurr->VoiD->ESAM->Dabuz->Nietono->Out at 7th

My verdict (note, upset vs notable win is based on seeding):

Spoiler

Lima likely benefited greatly from Tweek's DQ and possibly somewhat from falln>Cosmos. He did, however, get upsets on Mistake and CaptainZack (and notable wins on ESAM and falln) on his own.
CaptainZack was possibly the biggest beneficiary of bracket luck, with all three of his big bracket threats (MkLeo, Nairo, Salem) dropping early, giving him a "free" (no upsets necessary) run to Winners Finals. He did still obtain a notable win on VoiD.
If anything, Nietono made his run harder by losing early, but managed to bring it back in losers, upsetting Shuton, falln, Choco, and Mistake, as well as notably defeating Charlie and Mr. E.
Bracket luck did not affect much for Mistake, with Ally vs komorikiri likely not making much of a difference. The big boon that Mistake's run did have was his win on Dabuz.
MVD's bracket seemed to show a mix of luck and skill as he upset Nairo, Cosmos, and Raito (with a notable win on Karna) while avoiding Larry Lurr/Kameme, both of whom were upset by Diablo.
Mr. E's bracket likewise included both luck and skill, as he upset Salem and Shuton and got a notable win on MVD but did not have to fight Nairo, Larry Lurr, or Kameme due to all three being upset beforehand.
Along with CaptainZack, Raito was one of the luckier players in top 8, as both ANTi and MkLeo dropped before reaching Raito. Despite this, he did still upset Elegant to make top 8.
Choco falls into a similar realm to Nietono, losing earlier than expected, then making an insane losers run, in this case upsetting VoiD and Dabuz and notably defeating Zenyou, Larry Lurr and ESAM.

OMG. People needs to see this. This is a nice post!

Imo, bracket luck did aid Captain Zack a lot, but he was projected to place decently high in the first place. A lot of skill was involved as well.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Twitch chat is very rarely not horrible.

i could not agree more

 

[Nobie]

I don't know if this is the appropriate place to write this, but one thing that annoys me is seeing both old faces and people who never posted in the competitive discussion board come out of the woodwork to retcon Smash 4's history and go "I told you so."

Yeah, people get tired of games for one reason or another. It's good to move on when you find a game that's more fun for you. But to come back with an online smirk and act like double Bayonetta in grand finals is some ultimate proof of her ruining the game and stealing lunch money from all the low-tier mains is ridiculous.

If all you have is naysaying and declaring that you'd seen the ruin of Smash 4 all along, then you contribute nothing. And if you actually use the phrase "Tr4sh," then you're not with listening to, period

 

[blackghost]

another thing that just kind of gets swept under the rug is how multiple top players including leo impacted this event by getting dq'ed. if you wont ensure you can pariticipate in evo of all events thats a you issue. every game had early pools.

also if games like dbfz and in the past marvel 3 could deal with bo3 smash 4 can. evo is a huge event you want the benefits, deal with the event without complaining that includes melee.

i do applaud d1 calling out both the players and the crowd for thier nonsense.

 

[MarioManTAW]

another thing that just kind of gets swept under the rug is how multiple top players including leo impacted this event by getting dq'ed. if you wont ensure you can pariticipate in evo of all events thats a you issue. every game had early pools.

Just to clarify, MkLeo and Tweek's DQs (don't know if there are any notable others) were most likely beyond their control. MkLeo got chickenpox and Tweek's flight was canceled. Don't blame the players for not showing up, it wasn't their fault.

 

[Minordeth]

Smash 4 does not offer the same amount of options that Melee does, by the fact alone you aren't going to have as drastic of a difference in playstyle. Yes every Bayo or Melee fox looks the same to a casual but we aren't talking about causals here.

Quantifying differences in individual play styles between two different games is a fool’s errand. It’s also not a thing that I’m arguing.

Those people who left EVO grands were not casuals. [The people still tuning into watch smash 4 at this point in its lifespan are not casuals anymore. Casuals would just move on after the first Bayo ladder if they didn't like it. These are people within the community who actively want to still enjoy this game. I'm not okay with people attacking the people who choose to use these characters but I'm also not okay with any dislike of the character by being dismissed as "wrong" and that people should be expected to stay and watch something they don't enjoy.

Nah, I’m not talking about casuals.

But you are making an implicit assumption that the “non-casuals” -represented by those at EVO - understand how Bayo functions and plays.

There is nothing about this community that supports that assumption. This community has needed Bayo players to constantly correct fundamental misinformation about the character. Misinformation that is widespread and continues to this day.

But not knowing how characters function and work has been this community’s issue since day 1. How many competitive players still don’t understand that SDI does nothing against ZSS’ boost kick, for instance? How many competitive players think Fox’s utilt is safe on shield? How many competitive players still have no idea how Luma works at all?

Real talk: Most competitive players have no idea how Bayo works. They have an idea if they actually fight her in tournament, but otherwise, come on. How long did it take even top players to figure out that Heelslide was punishable on block?

I picked up Bayo when she was released for about an hour. She get awkward, so I was skipped going in depth. A bit later, I decided to really give her a shot, and discovered how deep the character was and it changed my perception of what goes into making her work at the top level. I didn’t switch mains, but it gave me insight and gave me more appreciation for the game.

But really, my overall point isn’t to attack the dislike of a character as a morally wrong thing. Character dislike is a preference. What is wrong is that competitive players are extending their preferential dislikes onto actual people.

And this definitely happens in other games, fan bases and sport in general, honestly what happens in Smash is pretty tame compared to others sports. Not condoning it, either way.

I’ve seen this analogy so many times and it’s still bad because it ignores a ton of sports where awful fan behavior isn’t the norm.

How many times have you seen spectators boo a player while they make their shot in golf?

When was the last time people yelled out “you suck!” while Nadal began his serve?

Ever see a crowd yell at a competitor during a kendo match?

Come on.

 

[ARGHETH]

It's happened quite a few times in basketball, at least. Just ask KD or Lebron.

 

[Minordeth]

It's happened quite a few times in basketball, at least. Just ask KD or Lebron.

Yeah, I mean, team sports are the usual example brought up. But outside of MMA and boxing (occasionally), you don’t get the crowd antagonism in one-on-one competitions.

Team sports are just that, team sports. The team collective can act as a buffer for that kind of spectator bm. And it’s not like it’s just freely tolerated. People still get kicked out.

The “but other sports!” defense doesn’t excuse our grassroots community bm. It doesn’t justify the shrug that inevitably follows.

 

[Thinkaman]

The "but basketball!" sports analogy is comparable to "but he's 15!"

Capt. Zack's age--as well as his repeated mistreatment by the community--only makes his behavior predictable, not excusable. Ditto goes for the community and their awful behavior.

That said, let's get this thread back on topic, and discuss the 30+ characters who placed top 64 at EVO.

 

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Envoy of Chaos

Nah, I’m not talking about casuals.

But you are making an implicit assumption that the “non-casuals” -represented by those at EVO - understand how Bayo functions and plays.

Thanks for this post, I was going to reply to the same thing. All I was going to add is that just because players go to EVO or attend events frequently does not make them lose their casual/scrub status. They can lose that once they began to work towards a solution to their problem instead of just complaining the instant they hit a roadblock.

-

A similar thing happened during the BBTAG tournament which made me think of the fear the community had when players discovered Bayonetta's platform camping with Bullet Arts.

Note: I'll edit this with a link to the match if anyone wants to see it later. Actually, nevermind, we should have good examples of stalling already.

The player (GCYoshi), intentionally stalled for timeouts during his set on stream and won the second he had a huge life-lead. Commentators, twitch chat, and even players the next day complained about it. The guy did not win the tourney, but people still complained.

The team I currently play in BBTAG gets similar hate for doing the same thing. I get replies like: "I don't like the way you play X, the way you play X is frustrating, I refuse to play X that way".
I have heard that Hungrybox still gets boos for playing a similar playstyle. Only brought this up to say that nobody has to follow this invisible rule of "playing fair". Now I feel like linking Core-A Gaming's Scrub Mentality video again. I take it that players really don't like stalling since it violates a rule to them.

-

Last thing.

The Smash 4 community is trending on Twitter, congrats. The link below has the video of the crowd leaving. At the end of it you can hear the filmer call the crowd scrubs and a guy with a mic asks where is the crowd going. Kotaku Australia and ESPN have already made articles on us.
I feel like we are the laughing stock when it comes to the FGC, and I am not suprised by what happened this weekend.

Edit: Forgot the link.

Link: https://twitter.com/i/moments/1026352514701176832

 

[ぱみゅ]

That said, let's get this thread back on topic, and discuss the 30+ characters who placed top 64 at EVO.

I find it funny how people give so much flack to Bayonetta, the Grand Finals "proving the character is beyond broken" and "a poetic ending to Sm4sh".
And sure, there were two Bayonettas in Grand Finals, 3 in Top 4. But those 3 were the only Bayonettas present in the entire top SIXTEEN. That's not what I'd call a "dominant" character, the numbers in the bigger scale just don't show that.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

EVO top 8 has suprising amount of diversity. A Duck Hunt, ZSS, Sheik, Diddy, Lucina, and 3 Bayos. I am happy for Japan as Raito, Nietono, and Choco played so well at EVO. I am happy for MVD and Mr E to place well in EVO. I am satisfied and happy that I watch most of top 8.


I know there is oversaturation of these flamewars but I couldnt help myself...
The Smash 4 Grand Finals in EVO is one of the most embarrasing and toxic moments in Smash 4 history. This Grand Finals has made us look like jokes and gives the FGC a point of why the Smash community is garbage. This is a terrible send off for Smash 4's final EVO.

Melee's GF is opposite, I am very satisfied for the Melee GF than Smash 4 GF because EVO 2018 is the first EVO since 2007 for a non god to win an EVO. I like how Leffen's mentality and personality changes overtime from being a dirtbag stubborn teen to a more matured and sympathic young man. It makes things more satisfying of how his personality changes paid off as he now finally won EVO. I am really happy for him and if it is Melee's final year, then this is a perfect ending. Also, contrary to belief, Melee's top actually has diversity: Peach main, Fox main, Falco main, two C Falcon mains, 2 Sheik mains. Only true Fox main is Leffen.

Otherwise, for Smash 4, the top 8 are great but the GF is lousy. Melee top 8 is also great with an historic sendoff.

It isnt over for Smash 4 though as we have SmashCon. We have to wait and see...

 

[ARGHETH]

That said, let's get this thread back on topic, and discuss the 30+ characters who placed top 64 at EVO.

Isn't that fairly common for an event this big? EVO 2017 had ~25 characters, to ~28 for EVO 2018 (depending on how you count secondaries).

Also, ZeRo made a video about the EVO thing. TL;DW, he understands why they did it, but their response was wrong and could have wide-ranging implications from the bad press and negative publicity it generates.

 

[Thinkaman]

Isn't that fairly common for an event this big? EVO 2017 had ~25 characters, to ~28 for EVO 2018 (depending on how you count secondaries).

Yes, we've enjoyed pretty great balance.

What's fresh this time is Raito and Mr. E's performance, though. While there is some caveats about the missing top players and upsets really favoring them--like they really favored our top 2, no point hiding that--it was still a big showing.

Surprised at the relatively poor showing of Cloud, Sonic, and Fox. We also saw a lot of intra-character upsets. Did anyone expect Salem to be the worst-performing Big Bayo? Or Dabuz and falln to place equally? ZSS results were interesting too.

Edit:
I was also impressed with Nicko's play, in the footage I saw.

I noted on multiple instances that if Nicko just had the faster Monado changes from Ultimate and nothing else--no new combo possibilities, no buffs, no landing lag changes, no Cloud nerfs, just the better switch speed--he would have taken the set against Komo.

 

[blackghost]

i feel like utimate is just going to be similar to a struggling couple going on vacation to try to fix a broken relationship. the consistent elements of this community are inside the community not the game it revolves around.
no one is surprised by this incident. Guess what? neither are the other communities.
like an earlier post said pros dont know a lot about bayonetta or what to do. I hear it in commentary as well. The guy that was commentating with vicki couldnt even PRETEND to be neutral during matches with bayonetta in it. its the little things that have lead us to this point.

 

[Thinkaman]

It is simultaneously possible for the issues to be entirely within the community, yet still alleviated by improvements to context.

Treating symptoms is not pointless; in fact, most of medicine is treating and managing symptoms.

To go off your example of a struggling couple: All couples struggle and experience friction, because we're human. But some also have to deal with financial instability, mental illness, or loss of a child--all of which dramatically increase the odds of marital failure. Improving or avoiding these factors makes the underlying personality conflicts much easier to reconcile.

 

[MarioManTAW]

That said, let's get this thread back on topic, and discuss the 30+ characters who placed top 64 at EVO.

I got you. Asterisks (*) denote secondaries. Note: I may have missed some or added some that were not actually used. Any confirmation would be appreciated.
7x - Lima [1st], CaptainZack [2nd], Mistake [4th], Salem [17th], Tyroy [17th], Abadango [25th], JK [25th]
7x - Nietono [3rd], VoiD [17th], Kameme* [25th], El Cobrador [33rd], Strike [33rd], Vinnie [33rd], Dynamo* [49th]
5x - Nietono* [3rd], MVD [5th], Suinoko [33rd], Tyrant* [33rd], Kiki [49th]
1x - Mr. E [5th]
2x - Raito [7th], Ozone [49th]
4x - Choco [7th], shky [25th], ANTi* [25th], Nairo [33rd]
1x - Cosmos [9th]
1x - Elegant [9th]
4x - Dabuz [9th], falln [9th], yuzu [13th], Vinnie* [33rd]
3x - ESAM [13th], Captain L [33rd], Z [33rd]
4x - Ally [13th], Zenyou [17th], ANTi [25th], Lui$ [33rd]
2x - Shuton [13th], ImHip [49th]
6x - takera [17th], Diablo [17th], Ki [33rd], PiXL [33rd], Ty [49th], Brosinex [49th]
4x - komorikiri [17th], ANTi* [25th], Dynamo [49th], Vermillion [49th]
3x - komorikiri* [17th], VaLoR [33rd], Phoenix [49th]
6x - crow [17th], Larry Lurr [25th], Charlie [25th], Eon [25th], NAKAT* [33rd], Nanchan [49th]
1x - Kameme [25th]
1x - Abadango* [25th]
1x - KiraFlax [33rd]
1x - Captain L* [33rd]
3x - Tyrant [33rd], AC [49th], Slither2Hunter [49th]
2x - Lea [33rd], Stroder [49th]
2x - NAKAT [33rd], BestNess [33rd]
1x - Snoop [49th]
1x - 3xA [49th]
1x - Konga [49th]
1x - AC* [49th]
1x - Extra [49th]
I count 28 unique characters, counting the Pits together, but that number may be slightly off (thing I'm most unsure about is whether Captain L used his Puff). The most common of those were:
[] - 7 reps
- 6 reps
- 5 reps
[] - 4 reps
- 3 reps
[] - 2 reps
No other character was represented by more than one player, with the highest solo-represented character being , followed by [] and .

 

[J0eyboi]

Did anyone expect Salem to be the worst-performing Big Bayo?

About that: Anyone know where I can find the vod for Mr. E vs Salem?

Edit:
I was also impressed with Nicko's play, in the footage I saw.

I noted on multiple instances that if Nicko just had the faster Monado changes from Ultimate and nothing else--no new combo possibilities, no buffs, no landing lag changes, no Cloud nerfs, just the better switch speed--he would have taken the set against Komo.

Basically since I picked up the character, instant Monado switching has been the single Shulk buff I wanted. Even ignoring all the very powerful tech it makes practical (particularly MAIL, MALS, and art wavebounces), the ability to switch Arts instantly enables so much stupid ****. I'm looking forward to seeing Shulk in Ultimate.

 

[Iridium]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Not sure if someone mentioned this, but it seems like the crowd did not have everything to do with what happened in grand finals. This changes the take of those who truly believed the crowd completely caused what happened. Not trying to start another debate, though.

 

[Nobie]

So like everyone else, I've been thinking about Bayonetta and the calls to ban her. I'm not going to go into detail specifically about Bayo, however, as we've been through that ride plenty of times. Instead, what I'm thinking about is how this community, which is set to get fresh blood thanks to Ultimate, seems ill-equipped to handle the very real possibility that there will be a top-tier character or two with frustrating strategies.

Consider all of the characters that would garner the same anger as Bayo if they were buffed to her level (i.e. best in the game but not by a drastic margin).

-Lucario already ticks people off thanks to Aura, and that's only as a high-tier. One of the few reasons people have even cheered for Lucario is when the player is an underdog going up against an "antagonist," namely in Tsu vs. ZeRo.
-Sonic is notorious for being able to drive opponents to impatience, and is built on an aggravating neutral.
-If Ryu's movement were even a little better, then those low-percent Shoryukens would be hated so much.
-Donkey and Bowser's throw combos would send people into the streets. People like them because they take down "top dogs."
-Let's not forget customs and Trip Sapling/Exploding Balloon Fight Villager. That DID drive players to harass Villager users.

People always point to Fox in Melee as a "fun top tier to fight," but in reality how likely is that to ACTUALLY happen? A few values switched up here and there, and Melee Jigglypuff could've been the best. It's absolutely unreliable to hope that a game's #1 character just so happens to fit the majority of players' AND viewers' preferences for action and excitement.

 

[The_Bookworm]

brain.exe has stopped working.

I am the type of person who would get hyped by something, but not go screaming. The same came from the direct, but the amount of stuff to take in.

What is your favorite part of the direct? Mine was the Dedede troll on the K. Roll trailer.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Please keep in mind there are places for Smash Ultimate discussion, thank you~

 

[Thinkaman]

So like everyone else, I've been thinking about Bayonetta and the calls to ban her. I'm not going to go into detail specifically about Bayo, however, as we've been through that ride plenty of times. Instead, what I'm thinking about is how this community, which is set to get fresh blood thanks to Ultimate, seems ill-equipped to handle the very real possibility that there will be a top-tier character or two with frustrating strategies.

Consider all of the characters that would garner the same anger as Bayo if they were buffed to her level (i.e. best in the game but not by a drastic margin).

I think your concerns are correctly placed, and have a new low of confidence for the community's ability to handle such.

However, I feel optimistic about Ultimate providing them with minimal trigger material. Your list is apt, so I'll just go through it:

-Lucario already ticks people off thanks to Aura, and that's only as a high-tier. One of the few reasons people have even cheered for Lucario is when the player is an underdog going up against an "antagonist," namely in Tsu vs. ZeRo.

I think a top-tier Lucario would be absolutely despised, but a modestly-high-tier Lucario has been surprisingly beloved in both games. People complain about comeback mechanics until the cows come home while enjoying them greatly in practice. Zero vs. Tsu is regarded as the single "best" Smash 4 set, and the crowd loved it. Yeah, that's an underdog vs. Zero, but that's kind of the entire point of the mechanic and when it works.

-Sonic is notorious for being able to drive opponents to impatience, and is built on an aggravating neutral.

Totally. Sonic drew a lot of ire in both games, and was my personal most disliked character. (Way worse than Bayonetta!) But even I am optimistic about Ulti Sonic, because they did exactly what I wanted: No more canceling Spin Dash.

-If Ryu's movement were even a little better, then those low-percent Shoryukens would be hated so much.

I've had similar theoretical worries about Ryu. But, like Lucario, his structural limitations seem to chain him down well enough, and nothing about Ultimate seems at too much risk of changing that. The dash and landing lag changes probably work in his favor more than not, but unless new, specifically problematic kill-confirms open up, the chain seems like it's staying in-place.

-Donkey and Bowser's throw combos would send people into the streets. People like them because they take down "top dogs."

Agreed. People disliked Hoo-Hah, after all. But both these kill confirms seem removed or less pronounced this game.

-Let's not forget customs and Trip Sapling/Exploding Balloon Fight Villager. That DID drive players to harass Villager users.

Customs, like DLC and Miis, were able to draw irrational hatred because they were different and able to be emotionally "othered" as illegitimate. Custom Villager, and Kong Cyclone, were uniquely poorly designed moves that were overly unfair and frustrating to new players. I would not worry about content like this ever existing in a more general format.

People always point to Fox in Melee as a "fun top tier to fight," but in reality how likely is that to ACTUALLY happen? A few values switched up here and there, and Melee Jigglypuff could've been the best. It's absolutely unreliable to hope that a game's #1 character just so happens to fit the majority of players' AND viewers' preferences for action and excitement.

There was also lots of hatred directed at Melee Peach, in the old days when Peach was more widely played and often played in a more defensive, less technical manner.

Of course, Melee and Brawl ICs were easily the most obnoxious character across any of the games. Them being top would be a disaster, as was the case in Brawl.

MK gets an undue amount of flak in Brawl, as Olimar, Falco, and DDD were more unenjoyable to fight or watch in most matchups. MK was very neutral to me, both to play against and watch. I really enjoyed Snake though; I always thought it was funny that I'd prefer playing against Snakes in Brawl, even when it was clearly a worse matchup.

The only Smash 4 top tier I specifically dislike playing against besides Sonic is Cloud. Ryu and Bayo are a pretty distant 3rd, and Cloud is at least pretty fun to watch.



Who is the BEST CASE top tier character for players and spectators, if we had to pick one to watch dittos of all day?

Duh, Pokemon Trainer.

 

[J0eyboi]

So like everyone else, I've been thinking about Bayonetta and the calls to ban her. I'm not going to go into detail specifically about Bayo, however, as we've been through that ride plenty of times. Instead, what I'm thinking about is how this community, which is set to get fresh blood thanks to Ultimate, seems ill-equipped to handle the very real possibility that there will be a top-tier character or two with frustrating strategies.

I wouldn't worry because patches will happen. Prepatch Shiek, Diddy, ZSS, and MK didn't kill the game, after all.

I suppose while I'm here I should also say that Ultimate seems to be doing its best to remove frustrating stuff. Rage is less of a thing, few characters have throw confirms, DI is more of a thing, grabs are worse, backwards rolls are slower, dodges stale, and way fewer moves can cross up shield, making stuff like spindash, Illusion, and especially Heel Slide way easier to deal with.

It is way too easy to hit the post reply button on mobile

 

[Ordeaux26]

since Smash Con is starting tomorrow I wonder how it will go hopefully this tournament will be good so everyone can but this drama at Evo behind us but who knows

who do you predict will win the event

 

[Thinkaman]

Not sure where to put this: I'm getting annoyed with the anti-custom revisionist history.

It's now "common knowledge" that customs were banned because custom villager was OP. When in fact, only 3 villager mains even broke top 64 at EVO 2015, none of which made it into even top 8.

The actual reason most commonly given was that allowing customs was unfair to the poor DLC characters.

And thus, as a community, we heavily nerfed for the sake of .

That is literally what happened.