Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[MarioManTAW]

The new stock icons for the 5 new characters from the direct just came in, but they are invisible to me. I forgot how to fix this issue lol.

Hard refresh (Ctrl+F5 in Chrome)

 

[Iridium]

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/12ViI-Rxn6z73BCpLUQqCsoX6OvDgxHJounFb7JlJ1wA/htmlview

Um, so the next Umebura is only in 8 days, so I'll just post the entrant list here for now.

 

[Heracr055]

Quick question: at this point, who would you think is the character with better results: Fox or ZSS? These characters are typically viewed as not as good as the established top 4, but are more under the radar picks that somehow establish themselves around 5th-6th best in the game. We all know about the ZSS factor where you are never winning until the victory screen, and she's had higher peaks than Fox; however, she does have consistency issues. Fox, on the other hand, has proven to be quite consistent, despite his bad disadvantage and (very, VERY) wrong perception that he's the most honest of the top tiers (or that he's even honest at all). Anyways, I think a discussion about these less talked about characters in the meta would be interesting.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Quick question: at this point, who would you think is the character with better results: Fox or ZSS? These characters are typically viewed as not as good as the established top 4, but are more under the radar picks that somehow establish themselves around 5th-6th best in the game. We all know about the ZSS factor where you are never winning until the victory screen, and she's had higher peaks than Fox; however, she does have consistency issues. Fox, on the other hand, has proven to be quite consistent, despite his bad disadvantage and (very, VERY) wrong perception that he's the most honest of the top tiers (or that he's even honest at all). Anyways, I think a discussion about these less talked about characters in the meta would be interesting.

Fox has had better results then ZSS as of late imo. Fair footstool ends stocks before they even began and Fox's powerful vortex game makes him a huge threat.

 

[J0eyboi]

Quick question: at this point, who would you think is the character with better results: Fox or ZSS? These characters are typically viewed as not as good as the established top 4, but are more under the radar picks that somehow establish themselves around 5th-6th best in the game. We all know about the ZSS factor where you are never winning until the victory screen, and she's had higher peaks than Fox; however, she does have consistency issues. Fox, on the other hand, has proven to be quite consistent, despite his bad disadvantage and (very, VERY) wrong perception that he's the most honest of the top tiers (or that he's even honest at all). Anyways, I think a discussion about these less talked about characters in the meta would be interesting.

According to the latest Das Koopa chart, Fox is up 17.25 points over ZSS. Based on results since then I'd say their results are about equal.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Quick question: at this point, who would you think is the character with better results: Fox or ZSS? These characters are typically viewed as not as good as the established top 4, but are more under the radar picks that somehow establish themselves around 5th-6th best in the game. We all know about the ZSS factor where you are never winning until the victory screen, and she's had higher peaks than Fox; however, she does have consistency issues. Fox, on the other hand, has proven to be quite consistent, despite his bad disadvantage and (very, VERY) wrong perception that he's the most honest of the top tiers (or that he's even honest at all). Anyways, I think a discussion about these less talked about characters in the meta would be interesting.

It is hard to say. I would say Fox mostly due to having a larger representation, but those who main ZSS (Nairo, Marss, Choco, shky, etc) have the higher peaks.


Btw, people don't actually think Fox is honest. It is a widespread joke which started with this amusing Civil War skit. I can't find the video for it so I will describe it the best as I can. Someone (forgot who) was interviewing Larry Lurr who was laying down on a couch with a Fox doll:

"Stealing money from the bank [or something like that]. Is that honest?"
"That is not honest."
"Lying to your mother. Is that honest?"
"That is not honest."
"Fox forward air into footstool killing at 0%. Is that honest?"
"That is honest."
"Max rage Donkey Kong--- up throw into up air killing at 40%. Is that honest?"
"That is honest."

I cannot believe I remember all of this. XD

 

[MarioManTAW]

It is hard to say. I would say Fox mostly due to having a larger representation, but those who main ZSS (Nairo, Marss, Choco, shky, etc) have the higher peaks.


Btw, people don't actually think Fox is honest. It is a widespread joke which started with this amusing Civil War skit. I can't find the video for it so I will describe it the best as I can. Someone (forgot who) was interviewing Larry Lurr who was laying down on a couch with a Fox doll:

"Stealing money from the bank [or something like that]. Is that honest?"
"That is not honest."
"Lying to your mother. Is that honest?"
"That is not honest."
"Fox forward air into footstool killing at 0%. Is that honest?"
"That is honest."
"Max rage Donkey Kong--- up throw into up air killing at 40%. Is that honest?"
"That is honest."

I cannot believe I remember all of this. XD

It started before that, because ZeRo posted a video about "Is Fox Honest?" before that, and I think his video was in response to a controversial Larry Lurr tweet saying that Fox was honest. That tweet was the source of the Civil War skit.

 

[Galaxeon]

ZSS invalidates more mid-to-low-tier characters and is arguably more explosive but Fox has a slightly easier time with other top tiers. This gives him the edge in my opinion. He is also more consistant even though his recovery is way more exploitable, which says a lot about his other strong attributes.

I think both are below Rosa though, who is the true underrepresented character of the bunch.

 

[Lord Dio]

I personally say ZSS has better peaks, but only because of her not having an abundance of high-level players like Fox. Nairo almost always scores well, when Marss peaks he shows it (beating ZeRo, top 8 at Civil War, etc.), and we saw what Choco can do.
whereas with Fox, sure, it's expected for them to do well, but there's a lot of them, so the chances of one or two doing well is much higher. But on the flipside, because of that, you're also expecting them to occasionally underperform.

 

[Minordeth]

Man, I was thinking, Sonic is basically the forgotten top tier. Whenever KEN shows up, people remember that Sonic is really dumb, but then they forget.

Is it just because Salem dissed Sonic into oblivion? Manny is looking like he has done that Light-esque upgrade into a top player, but he doesn’t travel cause Bayo.

I mean, I don’t play Sonic. It doesn’t seem like Bayo is that insurmountable. And Sonic has dumb gimmick crap that I don’t see much, so what’s up? Is it really just Bayo? Or is it Representation?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Man, I was thinking, Sonic is basically the forgotten top tier. Whenever KEN shows up, people remember that Sonic is really dumb, but then they forget.

Is it just because Salem dissed Sonic into oblivion? Manny is looking like he has done that Light-esque upgrade into a top player, but he doesn’t travel cause Bayo.

I mean, I don’t play Sonic. It doesn’t seem like Bayo is that insurmountable. And Sonic has dumb gimmick crap that I don’t see much, so what’s up? Is it really just Bayo? Or is it Representation?

Mostly representation. Manny and Wrath doesn't travel much, and KEN doesn't go to America anymore.

Edit: Can someone reply so I can make a comment.

 

[Iridium]

https://docs.google.com/a/student.n...kvgmikr-U6RbjporE-0zGF3saVOd7JNULbqY/htmlview

Here are the pools for Umebura 34! Not much else I have to say for this.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here is a little bit of an analysis on the K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus footage.

Gameplay Changes:

• The game appears to be more polished in this build of the game than at the E3 demo.
• This is off of what I see, but it looks like dash dancing is made slightly better than it already is, or at least K. Rool's dashdance is good.
• Again, from what I see, the landing lag from using directional airdodges seems to have decreased. It makes wavelanding more practical than at the E3 demo, and restores wavedashing somewhat, but both are not at the same degree as in Melee.
• The way the characters are launched are more normalized than in the E3 build of the game.
• Loading screens seem to have sped up.
• During the Chrom/Dark Samus showcase, a glitch involving stage morph has already been found. Ridley's side B command grab acted strangly as the stage morphed.

Spoiler: King K. Rool

Spoiler: Chrom

Spoiler: Dark Samus

 

[Iridium]

Here is a little bit of an analysis on the K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus footage.

Gameplay Changes:

• The game appears to be more polished in this build of the game than at the E3 demo.
• This is off of what I see, but it looks like dash dancing is made slightly better than it already is, or at least K. Rool's dashdance is good.
• Again, from what I see, the landing lag from using directional airdodges seems to have decreased. It makes wavelanding more practical than at the E3 demo, and restores wavedashing somewhat, but both are not at the same degree as in Melee.
• The way the characters are launched are more normalized than in the E3 build of the game.
• Loading screens seem to have sped up.
• During the Chrom/Dark Samus showcase, a glitch involving stage morph has already been found. Ridley's side B command grab acted strangly as the stage morphed.

Spoiler: King K. Rool

Spoiler: Chrom

Spoiler: Dark Samus

Is it possible that you can tell where do you think Link's current mobility might stand? Me and the Link social couldn't really say much about it.

 

[Guido65]

Man, I was thinking, Sonic is basically the forgotten top tier. Whenever KEN shows up, people remember that Sonic is really dumb, but then they forget.

Is it just because Salem dissed Sonic into oblivion? Manny is looking like he has done that Light-esque upgrade into a top player, but he doesn’t travel cause Bayo.

I mean, I don’t play Sonic. It doesn’t seem like Bayo is that insurmountable. And Sonic has dumb gimmick crap that I don’t see much, so what’s up? Is it really just Bayo? Or is it Representation?

To be honest I've always considered sonic the weakest and most overrated top tier of the bunch. For all the hype I've seen some people place him in top 5 or higher he really doesn't have the matchup spread to back it up. I think sonic is barely top tier.

Just looking at Sonics mu spread it's among the weakest of the top tiers.

Solidly losing to:

Loses slightly to:

Potentially loses to:

Goes even with:

Wins vs:(and Lucina)

Looking at his matchup spread vs other characters top tier or close to it I think it's really obvious how lackluster especially for how much I've seen people claim he's top 4 even top 3. Not saying he's bad but for a long time he's been solidly among the most overrated characters in the game(toon link is solidly the most overrated character imo and he's pretty close to low tier but he gets a pass bc of how well he's done in the past).

 

[Ordeaux26]

Solidly losing to:

to be honest, I have never understood why sonic loses to Bayonetta, Bayonetta is not good at dealing with camping and sonic is the campiest character in the game

 

[MercuryPenny]

Bayonetta is not good at dealing with camping

counter-camp with bullet arts to force his hand, sonic has to do something or he loses the lead

really bullet arts is crazy good at forcing people to commit to something, not really sure where this idea would come from

and sonic is the campiest character in the game

debatable

 

[J0eyboi]

counter-camp with bullet arts to force his hand, sonic has to do something or he loses the lead

really bullet arts is crazy good at forcing people to commit to something, not really sure where this idea would come from

With enough of a lead, Arts aren't really a threat. That said, it takes a while to get that much of a lead, and Sonic is pretty vulnerable to camping himself if he doesn't have one.

Here is a little bit of an analysis on the K. Rool, Chrom, and Dark Samus footage.

Gameplay Changes:

• The game appears to be more polished in this build of the game than at the E3 demo.
• This is off of what I see, but it looks like dash dancing is made slightly better than it already is, or at least K. Rool's dashdance is good.
• Again, from what I see, the landing lag from using directional airdodges seems to have decreased. It makes wavelanding more practical than at the E3 demo, and restores wavedashing somewhat, but both are not at the same degree as in Melee.
• The way the characters are launched are more normalized than in the E3 build of the game.
• Loading screens seem to have sped up.
• During the Chrom/Dark Samus showcase, a glitch involving stage morph has already been found. Ridley's side B command grab acted strangly as the stage morphed.

Spoiler: King K. Rool

Spoiler: Chrom

Spoiler: Dark Samus

This is a Smash 4 thread, not an Ultimate thread.

 

[The_Bookworm]

This is a Smash 4 thread, not an Ultimate thread.

Thinkaman said that Ultimate topics are allowed in this thread, although it is still SSB4 central.

Speaking of which, what are you guys anticipating at Shine this year?

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Thinkaman said that Ultimate topics are allowed in this thread, although it is still SSB4 central.

Speaking of which, what are you guys anticipating at Shine this year?

I look forward to seeing some upsets.

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

To be honest I've always considered sonic the weakest and most overrated top tier of the bunch. For all the hype I've seen some people place him in top 5 or higher he really doesn't have the matchup spread to back it up. I think sonic is barely top tier.

The first problem is I think your interpretation of Sonic's actual MU spread is slightly off which could be clouding your interpretation of the character as well. I would personally move a bunch around such as Sonic most likely winning vs Diddy (none of the Top Diddy's think they win while Dyr & MVD for example believe Sonic wins and it matches up in theory imo). M2/Rosa/Corrin/ZSS even at worst case scenario although M2 probably does the best out of the 4 (only SDX believes it's +1 iirc while WaDi believes even) but the other MUs don't show this in theory or result wise especially if you look at Nairo vs KEN or Dabuz vs Manny/KEN for quick references. Both Nairo/Dabuz think it's even at best & Nairo even thinks Sonic wins. All the Top Corrin mains believe the MU is even at best as well (Cosmos, Ryuga, Frozen, etc). I'd also move MegaMan to winning the MU slightly and Sonic winning vs Pikachu slightly. In all honesty (outside of the slight loss to Mega who is rare at top-level anyways) his MU spread is perfectly fine. Only characters I can see him likely losing to are like: Cloud, Sheik, Fox, Mega and I don't think he has anyone who counters him hard enough for -2.

In regards to Bayonetta MU I honestly feel like it's overexaggerated and if he does lose, it's very slight when played properly. Not every Sonic main is pushing their character's strengths in the MU hard enough or their playstyle doesn't mesh against Bayonetta and it really shows. Not to mention Salem just being particularly good at the Sonic MU in general makes it seem more drastic than it really is because he holds a lot of the top level wins in the MU alone.

Sonic having the fastest run speed gives him so much control in regards to playing around Bayonetta's neutral whose run speed is as fast as Mario without committing to her specials. Because Sonic can chase her landings no matter where she lands, she can't afford to spam specials or bullets that much at all to try to keep herself from getting danced around because she's out-sped or to force the approach. Sonic can whiff punish a lot attacks she throws out trying to stuff him or run up on her for trying to "out-camp" with bullets. Everyone is always talking about Bayonetta getting the lead but what happens when she has to chase Sonic and try to reclaim the lead from him because of Sonic's own high damage output? It can be very back & forth in that way and it's really easy to see the match snowball in one's favor at times, whoever takes the 1st stock usually winds up controlling the pace of the match and this usually leads to that character winning as well which is why I see it closer to even based on their neutral interactions among other things.

Bayo bullets have no hitstun, do little damage in comparison to Sonic's output when he gets in, and Bayo pulling out of the motion for them from D-tilt can be punished by rushing in on her easy. As for Nair bullet-arts camping, because Nair has no hitbox below Bayo (it's her leg spinning around her waist's height), Sonic can anti-air with either Spindash or SH U-air for example or pressure her to stop with his presence within a certain range he can get to quickly. Sonic having all these movement mixups and speed allows him to just stand outside her dtilt range and force her to act because she has to be ready to react to whether he'll go in or out and this allows him to bait out witch times and other commital options from her and continue pushing the lead by being patient and responding to what she tosses out. I seriously feel like this MU could be pretty evenish when played optimally but even if not, I definitely disagree with Bayonetta winning as hard as -2.

Sonic can exploit Diddy's neutral game just fine because of his speed. Sonic's mobility alone makes Diddy uncomfortable because banana pulls become unsafe from a larger range and Banana is very important for Diddy in this MU because it helps control the stage vs spindash a little and slows down Sonic's movement to a more manageable level for him cause he's not as fast. Without it tho, he struggles just landing hits, Diddy spamming dtilt in place opens up room for exploitation because of how quick Sonic can close the gap, and Fair/Side-B can be easily whiff punished if Sonic stays grounded.

With banana in play Diddy can try to pressure a little better or attempt to cut off options/corner but without it Sonic runs circles around Diddy and there isn't enough time for him to setup and it's not difficult for Sonic to pressure Diddy to stop pulling or get it into his own hands if left on the floor. If Sonic has it in hand he can just play lame and react to everything Diddy might try to do due to his speed/spindash. Diddy can try to stuff out with fair and dtilt in place but both don't work on a Sonic who sticks to the ground to maintain his speed and bait it out. And if he tries to run in for a grab Sonic can just spincharge spindash or just toss the banana at him to setup a combo/kill. Sonic can juggle & chase Diddy's landings because of his terrible air-speed and is still fast enough to cover monkey flip mixups. Sonic can also steal banana and outcamp him to where he has to resort to unsafe or risky options if he doesn't have a lead and it's easier for Sonic to maintain said lead than the other way around.

The reason Sonic is so good as a character is because his insane mobility allows him to be a threat to everyone because they have to respect his ability to whiff punish from like halfway across the stage and he has a bunch of options/mixups that are hard to react to within his burst range. The runspeed alone allows him to cover up his lack of moves available to just toss out in neutral as well as punish whiffed moves that others can't, allow him to regain stage control rather easily, outcamp most opponents, catch landings/maintain long juggles, and just dance around opponents. He gets away with a lot vs most of the cast (whether recovery, landing, neutral options, etc) just because of him being so fast in combination with his tools and only a select few characters can realistically try to camp him back or regain the lead safely when he gets ahead.

This is all quick surface level analysis but I fully believe Sonic's tools are enough to handle himself no matter who he's fighting. I'm optimistic about Sonic for a lot of the same reasons I'm optimistic about Fox, especially in regards to how their mobility allows them to dictate the pace of everything or force certain interactions in neutral and cover up their flaws when they can't. More than anything else the main issue for Sonic is his rep right now due to players not traveling and also due to the notable main's playstyles not properly adjusting to every matchup. If only all the notable Sonic mains could combine their players strengths into one person... (this all reminds me of Greninja smh)

 

[Heracr055]

Is Umebura streaming on Twitch? If yes, do we have a link?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Captain Zack is out early at 49th, losing 2-0 to Arhungry and 2-1 to Kuma.

Funny how this happened when we are talking about the Bayo-Sonic matchup. lol

 

[Iridium]

Is Umebura streaming on Twitch? If yes, do we have a link?

Uh, the event is over, but you can watch it here: https://www.twitch.tv/shi_gaming.

 

[Cheryl~]

MkLeo just got sent to Losers by Jakal in a 3-1 set.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Here are the upsets for Shine 2018 pools:

Winner's
CaptainZack 0-2 Arhungry
SDX 1-2 Pandarian
Ralphie 1-2 Wraith
Craftis 1-2 Clipboards
8BitMan 0-2 Eldin
Note: Lima DQ'ed to Loser's.

Loser's
CaptainZack 1-2 Kuma (Out at 49th)
Scot! 1-2 Mlarcin (Out at 65th)
Kogarasuma 1-2 Sharp (Out at 97th)

 

[Illusion.]

Eldin is a PR’d in South Carolina.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Eldin is a PR’d in South Carolina.

Already fixed prior to your comment. Thanks anyways!

I find it funny that we were dicussing Sonic's place in the metagame, then a Sonic player named Jakal defeats MkLeo and VoiD to make it to top 8 winner's side.

Edit: To add on to it, CaptainZack got knocked out early by a Sonic player named Kuma. Do we have power over this?

 

[Heracr055]

Sonic is always good. People underestimate how he can evade and engage at will.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Top 8

Winner's
Jakal vs Mistake
Tweek vs Salem

Loser's
VoiD vs MkLeo
Light vs Dark Wizzy

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Sonic's greatest strength is his ability to dictate the flow of the match with his speed.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Top 8 so far:

Light 3-0 Dark Wizzy
Despite what the score board says, this was a nail biter. Ultimately, Light is the victor. However, this is definetely not bad for Wizzy's first top 8 appearance at a major. Light is about to fight Jakal.

MkLeo 3-2 VoiD
VoiD brought this surprisingly close, but Leo's loser's run continues and is about to fight Tweek.

Jakal 1-3 Mistake
Not too surprised by this. It is a new day, and it is difficult to keep your momentum going, especially against someone at Mistake's caliber.

Tweek 2-3 Salem
This is a very impressive feat by Salem. He is generally considered to be the worst top Bayo player in the Bayo ditto, and he just beat the player who is considered to be the best at the ditto.

Edit: Can someone reply please?

 

[Heracr055]

Hooray Salem

 

[The_Bookworm]

Shine 2018

1st: Salem
2nd: Mistake
3rd: Tweek
4th: Light
5th: MkLeo
5th: JaKaL
7th: Dark Wizzy
7th: VoiD
9th: Cosmos
9th: ANTi
9th: SDX
9th: Dabuz
13th: Blacktwins
13th: Marss
13th: Sinji
13th: Smokk
17th: Lima
17th: ZD
17th: Aerial Ace
17th: UtopianRay
17th: Pugwest
17th: Koolaid
17th: SuperGirlKels
17th: Pandarian
25th: Glare
25th: Odyssey
25th: Magister
25th: Ralphie
25th: Raffi-X
25th: Goblin
25th: Blush
25th: Mr. E

Notable Players out Earlier:
33rd: yeti
33rd: MuteAce
33rd: Gen
33rd: 8BitMan
33rd: Arhungry
49th: CaptainZack
49th: Jayy
49th: Craftis
65th: Scot!
65th: THUNDER
65th: LeeT
97th: Kogarasuma


Salem's first major win this year. He is back!

Why did Leo kept using Bayo at game 4 against Tweek? At this point, I do not know what goes on his head.

The funny thing about this event is that while three Bayos made it to top 4 like in EVO, the rest of the bracket is somewhat barren of Bayo players.

I forgot how to again, but can you guys remind me how to post twitter posts into a comment here. There is something that I need to post from there that is important.

Edit: I bet this tournament is going to have backlash just because there is three Bayos at top 4 like in EVO, despite the lack of solo Bayos outside of the top 8 (or at least the amount that performed well). I can already imagine YouTube comments and Twitter comments. XD

 

[Heracr055]

I wouldn't call Salem winning a sign that he's back...because he wasn't gone to begin with (aside from not attending many events in the 1st half of the year). He regularly made top 8 iirc and his lowest placing was 13th iirc (feel free to correct me). It's just that: 1) He"d run into Leo, and 2) he was so bad/unfortunate at Bayo dittos. While the Twitch chat was disparaging Bayo/Mistake/"when's Melee"-ing I was popping off Salem finally overcoming Tweek and Mistake.

 

[Lord Dio]

alright, here's a good question, thoughts on top 20 of that top 50 or 100 (I forget which) of all time?
here's my top 20 of all time, ripped from someone else's on reddit and with a few changes, and in no order:

1. Fatality
2. VoiD
3. Nairo
4. Dabuz
5. ZeRo
6. MkLeo
7. Ally
8. komorikiri
9. VoiD
10. Larry Lurr
11. Salem
12. ESAM
13. ANTi
14. Abadango
15. Kameme
16. Tweek
17. Elegant
18. Marss
19. KEN
20. CaptainZack

 

[The_Bookworm]

alright, here's a good question, thoughts on top 20 of that top 50 or 100 (I forget which) of all time?
here's my top 20 of all time, ripped from someone else's on reddit and with a few changes, and in no order:

1. Fatality
2. VoiD
3. Nairo
4. Dabuz
5. ZeRo
6. MkLeo
7. Ally
8. komorikiri
9. VoiD
10. Larry Lurr
11. Salem
12. ESAM
13. ANTi
14. Abadango
15. Kameme
16. Tweek
17. Elegant
18. Marss
19. KEN
20. CaptainZack

I would personally swap out Fatality for Mr. R, but overall the players seem accurate.

 

[Lord Dio]

I would personally swap out Fatality for Mr. R, but overall the players seem accurate.

shoot, forgot about him
would personally take out Zack and replace him with Mr R in that case.

 

[Nah]

I forgot how to again, but can you guys remind me how to post twitter posts into a comment here. There is something that I need to post from there that is important.

Basically on the reply box you should see an icon that looks like a few dots that when you hover over it will say "Insert". Click on it, click "Media", and then copy-paste the tweet's URL. Click Continue and it should embed the tweet into your post

Alternatively, you can manually do it yourself by doing [media*=twitter]insert the numbers at the end of the tweet URL here[/media] except without the *

So like, as an example:

Here's a tweet URL: https://twitter.com/FEHeroes_News/status/1027821788393136128

Then do [media*=twitter]1027821788393136128[/media]

And you'll get the tweet in your post:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

 

[J0eyboi]

shoot, forgot about him
would personally take out Zack and replace him with Mr R in that case.

Replace the second VoiD instead, maybe.

25th: Goblin

Noice.

Also who?