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Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

Prince Koopa Jr

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Not sure where to put this: I'm getting annoyed with the anti-custom revisionist history.

It's now "common knowledge" that customs were banned because custom villager was OP. When in fact, only 3 villager mains even broke top 64 at EVO 2015, none of which made it into even top 8.

The actual reason most commonly given was that allowing customs was unfair to the poor DLC characters.

And thus, as a community, we heavily nerfed :4palutena::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4littlemac::4samus::4bowserjr::4kirby: for the sake of :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4mewtwo::4ryu::4corrin:.

That is literally what happened.
So true
 

Ordeaux26

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Not sure where to put this: I'm getting annoyed with the anti-custom revisionist history.

It's now "common knowledge" that customs were banned because custom villager was OP. When in fact, only 3 villager mains even broke top 64 at EVO 2015, none of which made it into even top 8.

The actual reason most commonly given was that allowing customs was unfair to the poor DLC characters.

And thus, as a community, we heavily nerfed :4palutena::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4littlemac::4samus::4bowserjr::4kirby: for the sake of :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4mewtwo::4ryu::4corrin:.

That is literally what happened.
decent point but what about :4lucas::4feroy: and also it wasn't just villager other customs moves are broken as well like Kong Cyclone and Lightweight

and another reason customs where banned was because of how tedious they where to unlock and not efficient for tournaments to set up
 
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Thinkaman

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decent point but what about :4lucas::4feroy: and also it wasn't just villager other customs moves are broken as well like Kong Cyclone and Lightweight
Customs failed to help :4lucas::4feroy:, as well as :4jigglypuff: and :4dedede:. But this whataboutism does not make the absence of perfection the enemy of good. Custom moves overwhelmingly helped characters in the bottom half of the roster more than the top, including providing zero help to the top 4 characters.

The most problematic customs were Kong Cyclone, Twisting Fox, and probably Zig-Zag Shot. (But no one complained about that one.) You could also argue that the game would have been better off without Sonic's custom options, as well as Villager's, but neither is really a problem.

Given absolute policy powers, I'd just ban Kong Cyclone. It's not the best move in the game, but it's extremely unfair to new players because the counterplay to it has to be so precise in most matchups. (It's surely the worst designed move in the game.) Putting this on low-tier release DK was one thing, but on post-patch DK it'd be an issue.
 

MercuryPenny

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what would have been great is if customs actually took off as a side event, so customs players would at least have the option of playing in bracket with customs, but that ship sailed long ago. instead, now we have the few dozen customs fans who secretly despise everyone else for banning customs

something similar will likely happen with the fs meter in ultimate, btw
 
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ぱみゅ

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Not sure where to put this: I'm getting annoyed with the anti-custom revisionist history.

It's now "common knowledge" that customs were banned because custom villager was OP. When in fact, only 3 villager mains even broke top 64 at EVO 2015, none of which made it into even top 8.

The actual reason most commonly given was that allowing customs was unfair to the poor DLC characters.

And thus, as a community, we heavily nerfed :4palutena::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4ganondorf::4littlemac::4samus::4bowserjr::4kirby: for the sake of :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4mewtwo::4ryu::4corrin:.

That is literally what happened.
Customs were banned not because they were powerful (No DK make it to Top 32 of EVO, 3 Villagers did but only 1 used this strat), but because the community deemed 2-3 characters "lame" and didn't want to deal with them anymore.
And thus, even Miis were stigmatised.
:196:
 

Thinkaman

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something similar will likely happen with the fs meter in ultimate, btw
This is a false equivalence.

One is showing up to events and having your character be banned. (Or forced to use non-viable specials)

The other is showing up expecting the tournament to be based on a fringe alternate win-condition mechanic, like Stamina mode.

Custom move options make the roster significantly more balanced, full stop. I would bet $1000 here and now that final smash meters make the game less balanced.
 

Frihetsanka

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The actual reason most commonly given was that allowing customs was unfair to the poor DLC characters.

And thus, as a community, we heavily nerfed :4palutena::4wiifit::4duckhunt::4ganondorf::4littlemac::4samus::4bowserjr::4kirby: for the sake of :4bayonetta::4cloud2::4mewtwo::4ryu::4corrin:.

That is literally what happened.
Even if we assume that this is true, clearly it wasn't for the sake of Bayonetta, Corrin, or Cloud, since they weren't even around when customs were banned. This was also before Mewtwo was buffed, and he was considered, by many, to not be very good before the buffs. So, really, it was for the sake of Mewtwo (who was weak back then), Lucas, Roy, and Ryu (granted, he was strong).

Anyway, based on what I've seen I'm more inclined to believe it had more to do with logistical issues and top players not wanting "jank" more than it had to do with "it is unfair to DLC characters" (though, again, back then most DLCs were actually considered mid tier or low tier).
 

ProfessorVincent

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Customs were banned not because they were powerful (No DK make it to Top 32 of EVO, 3 Villagers did but only 1 used this strat), but because the community deemed 2-3 characters "lame" and didn't want to deal with them anymore.
And thus, even Miis were stigmatised.
:196:
Wasn't the issue with custom moves the fact that they were so goddamn impractical to obtain? I mean, the discussions around stuff being op or lame would have gone a lot better if everyone could try these moves for themselves. As it was, we were forced to grind like crazy or jump through a bunch of hoops that involved Smash for 3DS if we wanted to have access to a full custom roster. Who wants to do that when they can actually have fun playing smash? I'd have loved to see a customs meta, but I blame the devs for this one.
 

MercuryPenny

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i wasn't comparing the function of customs to final smashes, i was saying that there will definitely be people who resent the rest of us for the entirety of ultimate's lifespan for not supporting the final smash meter

ultimately a meaningless statement, i know. i question why i edited that into the post myself.
 

Thinkaman

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Even if we assume that this is true, clearly it wasn't for the sake of Bayonetta, Corrin, or Cloud, since they weren't even around when customs were banned. This was also before Mewtwo was buffed, and he was considered, by many, to not be very good before the buffs. So, really, it was for the sake of Mewtwo (who was weak back then), Lucas, Roy, and Ryu (granted, he was strong).
Naturally. It's just super ironic how it turned out.

Also, allowing the option to turn rage off would be a great thing for the game and a terrible, awful thing for our community. Also see: the ability to turn Stale Moves off, the ability to add l-canceling, or any other number of terrible self-sabotaging decisions.

Why not just label the option "Screw Heavies"?
 

Gearkeeper-8a

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sakurai adds more options so the community can adjust things to improve how they can play the game, but the community doesnt really know how to use these options.

edit: I never understood why people said things like customs weren't considered for balance, considering that in some patches they adjusted some customs moves for some characters like villager.
 
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MercuryPenny

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rage is an interesting, but sloppily executed mechanic. if it was done in a way that preserved the extra complexity without letting people kill at 0%, i would honestly have no gripes with it.
 

Heracr055

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Okay, check this out...
As I'm sure you guys know, Mario Kart gives lighter racers higher acceleration and better ability to off road (in exchange for low top speed), while heavy drivers trade off poor offroad and poor acceleration for a high top speed. What if there was a way that this was applied to Ultimate?
Characters who are lighter would have a much less dramatic scaling of rage, while heavier fighters' scaling of rage remained the same. I think this could be a good way to let heavies retain this advantage, while mitigating those who shouldn't have such a powerful combination of rage+combos (Bayonetta is a good example with Witch Twist kills off the top).
 
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Thinkaman

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Let's not turn this into a rage topic; I regret bringing it up. Suffice to say that rage should never have applied to base knockback and hopefully won't in Ultimate.
 

trickroom

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Wasn't the issue with custom moves the fact that they were so goddamn impractical to obtain? I mean, the discussions around stuff being op or lame would have gone a lot better if everyone could try these moves for themselves. As it was, we were forced to grind like crazy or jump through a bunch of hoops that involved Smash for 3DS if we wanted to have access to a full custom roster. Who wants to do that when they can actually have fun playing smash? I'd have loved to see a customs meta, but I blame the devs for this one.
This is an important perspective that has to be considered when we look at customs. They created such a massive barrier to entry for new players, and I think this is one of the best reasons justifying their ban. If I remember correctly the best options for getting *all* customs onto your copy of the game were:

A) Going to a tournament or gathering and getting someone else to transfer their entire 3DS of premade customs sets onto your Wii U
B) Dragging together a premade 3DS full of customs for yourself legitimately (taking many, many hours)
C) Dragging together a premade 3DS with hacks (which was a little harder at the time and was/is not a good idea with Nintendo involvement, not to mention being seen by many as "immoral" and risking a voided warranty)
C) Putting Ganondorf in the Angry Birds game mode on the Wii U and just leave your Wii idle while he warlock punches the bomb for hours on end, requiring a taped B button or a 3rd party turbo controller as well as a large amount of time you're willing to let your Wii U sit without you playing it

Of course, only getting customs for the specific character(s) you want to play is less of a hassle, but is still a hassle to be sure.

If I want to learn a competitive game like Overwatch or Counterstrike, I pay for and download the game and I'm ready to go. If I want to learn Smash Bros for Wii U in a world with legalized customs, I have to buy the game, buy + download the DLC (if i really want to save money and know what a tier list is I can skip Lucas and Roy), and then jump through one of the impractical hoops listed above. After I do all of this, if I want to practice custom moves on my own time I have to go on a discord server or Anther's Ladder to find someone who wants to play customs-on friendlies with me. Customs not only would've hurt the game with the negative reputation and boring viewing experience of custom Villager, but would've created a massive barrier of entry for little good reason.

[All this being said, I still agree that the Miis were neutered by the ruleset for no good reason.]
 
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The_Bookworm

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Upset list for Smash Con Round 1 Pools:
Immortal:4bowser: defeats Locus:4ryu:
Joe-J 2-1 Light:4fox:
Nanchan 2-1 Rags:4metaknight:
Puppeh:4sheik: 2-0 BestNess:4ness:
Nagisa 2-0 Vermillion:4cloud2:
DaNeel 2-0 Zephr:4cloud2:


Completed Pools

 
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JustCallMeJon

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Upset city in SmashCon 2018:
  • Ralphie :4cloud2: 2-1 Ally:4mario:
  • Blank:4sheik: 2-0 Fatality:4falcon:
  • MagiMagi:4mewtwo: 2-1 CaptainZack:4bayonetta2:
  • Eon :4fox:2-0 MVD:4diddy:
  • MuteAce :4peach::4bayonetta: 2-0 Raito :4duckhunt:
  • MuteAce :4peach::4bayonetta:2-1 Larry Lurr :4fox:
  • Geist :4bayonetta:2-0 Dabuz :rosalina:
  • Sinji :4pacman: 2-1 Marss :4zss:
  • MagiMagi :4mewtwo:2-0 Eon :4fox:
  • Konga :4dk: 2-0 ESAM :4pikachu: (ESAM out 33rd)
  • Zan :4tlink: 2-1 Raito :4duckhunt: (Raito out 49th)
  • Larry Lurr :4fox:2-0 Dabuz :rosalina:(Dabuz out 33rd)
  • BestNess :4ness: 2-1 Light :4fox:(Light out in Pools)
Apparently, I heard Melee got some big upsets too in Smash Con. SFAT and Mango sent to losers in pools as an example. This is gonna be wild.
 
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Iridium

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Upset city in SmashCon 2017:
  • Ralphie :4cloud2: 2-1 Ally:4mario:
  • Blank:4sheik: 2-0 Fatality:4falcon:
  • MagiMagi:4mewtwo: 2-1 CaptainZack:4bayonetta2:
  • Eon :4fox:2-0 MVD:4diddy:
  • MuteAce :4peach::4bayonetta: 2-0 Raito :4duckhunt:
  • MuteAce :4peach::4bayonetta:2-1 Larry Lurr :4fox:
  • Geist :4bayonetta:2-0 Dabuz :rosalina:
  • Sinji :4pacman: 2-1 Marss :4zss:
  • MagiMagi :4mewtwo:2-0 Eon :4fox:
  • Konga :4dk: 2-0 ESAM :4pikachu: (ESAM out 33rd)
  • Zan :4tlink: 2-1 Raito :4duckhunt: (Raito out 49th)
  • Larry Lurr :4fox:2-0 Dabuz :rosalina:(Dabuz out 33rd)
  • BestNess :4ness: 2-1 Light :4fox:(Light out in Pools)
Apparently, I heard Melee got some big upsets too in Smash Con. SFAT and Mango sent to losers in pools as an example. This is gonna be wild.
Raito went out at 65th. I think people didn't look at the bracket.
 

The_Bookworm

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Upsets for Pools Round 2

Top 32 Bracket and Predictions
 
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trickroom

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Forgive me for subtweeting Craftis because he's on stream, but self-titled "aggressive Sonics" always confuse me. Aren't they just making their character worse than it has to be just because they want to please stream viewers?
 

The_Bookworm

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IcyMist:4samus: 3-0 Elegant:4luigi:

I think she might be one of the best players against Luigi. She just knows all of Elegant's habits and abused them, although the first game was kinda robbed because of Lylat nonsense. XD
 

The_Bookworm

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I have no idea why Leo switched to Bayo on game 4 against Nairo, when he was doing so well with Cloud on game 3. It ended up working well for him, but I am confused on what was in Leo's head.
 

The_Bookworm

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[Edit: Opps, sorry for the double post. RIP]

Super Smash Con 2018 (1,380 Attendees)

1st: MkLeo:4cloud2::4marth::4bayonetta2:
2nd: Samsora:4peach::rosalina:
3rd: Tweek:4bayonetta2::4cloud2:
4th: Cosmos:4corrinf:
5th: Nairo:4zss:
5th: Mistake:4bayonetta2:
7th: Salem:4bayonetta:
7th: Larry Lurr:4fox:
9th: MagiMagi:4mewtwo:
9th: Ralphie:4cloud2:
9th: Sonido:4sonic:
9th: VoiD:4sheik:
13th: ANTi:4mario:
13th: IcyMist:4samus:
13th: CaptainZack:4bayonetta2::4peach:
13th: WaDi:4mewtwo:
17th: Elegant:4luigi:
17th: Craftis:4sonic:
17th: tyroy:4bayonetta::4cloud2:
17th: Sinji:4pacman:
17th: Fatality:4falcon:
17th: SDX:4mewtwo:
17th: Mr. E:4lucina:
17th: MuteAce:4bayonetta2::4peach:
25th: 6WX:4sonic:
25th: Geist:4bayonetta:
25th: Wrath:4sonic:
25th: Midnight:rosalina:
25th: Blank:4sheik:
25th: Donquavious:4greninja:
25th: Konga:4dk:
25th: Puppeh:4sheik:
 
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NotLiquid

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Jul 14, 2014
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Aaaaand that last stock was probably the best example of "yeah okay Rage is bad" I've seen in a while, and makes me all the more hopeful that there seems to be an option for it in Ultimate or that it's at least very weakened.
 
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FE_SLaDe

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Aug 10, 2018
Messages
77
I have no idea why Leo switched to Bayo on game 4 against Nairo, when he was doing so well with Cloud on game 3. It ended up working well for him, but I am confused on what was in Leo's head.
Leo most likely switched for the Bowser counter pick. He doesn't like playing Cloud or Marth into the grapplers and probably thought it was coming.
 

The_Bookworm

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Aaaaand that last stock was probably the best example of "yeah okay Rage is bad" I've seen in a while, and makes me all the more hopeful that there seems to be an option for it in Ultimate or that it's at least very weakened.
It was mostly because Marth's tipper is stupid strong. Yes, rage is noticeably nerfed in Ultimate and there is evidence (not official confirmed though) that it could be turned off.
 
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Frihetsanka

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Super Smash Con 2018 (1,380 Attendees)


2nd: Samsora:4peach::rosalina:
4th: Cosmos:4corrinf:
9th: MagiMagi:4mewtwo:
9th: Ralphie:4cloud2:
9th: Sonido:4sonic:
13th: IcyMist:4samus:
Lots of hype and interesting placements, Samsora #2, Cosmos #4, and three relativity unknown players for 9th! Also, IcyMist 13th is nice. A European who isn't Mr. R (MagiMagi) getting 9th at such a large tournament is hype too.
 

Iridium

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Mar 17, 2018
Messages
8,445
Light easily got the worst luck this tourney. Out at 97th, being the lowest-placing PGR player there.
 

The_Bookworm

Smash Master
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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
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A little update here, but S1 (top European Ness player) announced that he is going to retire from competitive SSB4 in preparation for Smash Ultimate.

Fatality is also planning in participating in very few events until Smash Ultimate's release as well. Smash Con might be one of his final events before Ultimate's release.

Edit: Can someone reply, I have another post to show off?
 
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Iridium

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Mar 17, 2018
Messages
8,445
A little update here, but S1 (top European Ness player) announced that he is going to retire from competitive SSB4 in preparation for Smash Ultimate.

Fatality is also planning in participating in very few events until Smash Ultimate's release as well. Smash Con might be one of his final events before Ultimate's release.

Edit: Can someone reply, I have another post to show off?
Japan did terribly at SSC. Their best player was Ke-ya, and he unfortunately only got 49th, and not a lot showed up.

Also, are you going to continue your thread on SSBU alts? It's really good. :)
 

The_Bookworm

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Jan 10, 2018
Messages
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Japan did terribly at SSC. Their best player was Ke-ya, and he unfortunately only got 49th, and not a lot showed up.

Also, are you going to continue your thread on SSBU alts? It's really good. :)
Until new alts are announced, there isn't really much I can do but wait. Maybe I could search for larger pictures, but that is it for now.
Edit: I might actually talk about the alts that are in the e3 demo and how they are different from SSB4's (or in the case for Snake and Ice Climbers, Brawl's).


Sumabato 27 (251 Entrants)

1st: Zackray:4corrin::4bayonetta2::4marth:
2nd: KEN:4sonic:
3rd: shky:4zss:
4th: Shuton:4olimar:
5th: ikep:4bayonetta2:
5th: Kuwa:4ryu:
7th: Towa:rosalina:
7th: Tsu-:4lucario::4cloud2:
9th: Compact:4mewtwo:
9th: Kuro:4fox:
9th: Mangalitza:4cloud2:
9th: Umeki:4peach:
13th: Eim:4sheik:
13th: HIKARU:4dk:
13th: Rizeasu:substitute: (Don't know)
13th: Tea:4pacman:

The new stock icons for the 5 new characters from the direct just came in, but they are invisible to me. I forgot how to fix this issue lol.
 
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