Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Ordeaux26]

A new update to Most Hype Smash 4 Sets 2018

Dreamhack Austin 2018 Larry Lurr Vs ESAM Winners/Grand Finals

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKdQ4BBmKpY&list=PLOKeMBSdKPVmxuikl1q7K7_fX6OGfb4US&index=23&t=0s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GKExFhgHZsY&list=PLOKeMBSdKPVmxuikl1q7K7_fX6OGfb4US&index=23

Smash'N'Splash 4 Komorikiri Vs Shoyo James

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lx0XTdpJETs&t=58s&list=PLOKeMBSdKPVmxuikl1q7K7_fX6OGfb4US&index=25

full forum here https://smashboards.com/threads/most-hype-smash-4-sets-2018.454186/

 

[Ordeaux26]

my mistake

 

[The_Bookworm]

Results shouldn't be the only thing that matters of course but they should back up what your saying more often than they don't. I can't keep saying D3 is a high tier character because his theory is great and everyone else has it wrong (it's obviously not great but for the sake of example pretend it is). And whenever a tournament rolls around and his best players attend they struggle to do anything notable. At the same time I can't look at the one time Zaki got 17th at Smash n Splash 4 and use that one example as proof that D3 is high tier after all. It's should always be a good mix of the two when being used. With Tsu retiring I do expect Lucario to decay slightly yes but he shouldn't drop far from where is at now because Tsu consistently proved Lucario is as good as his tiering and theory indicated same goes to any character that loses their largest source of results of that player proved the character was as good(or bad) as thought with consistent data to back it up then they shouldn't fall far once that player stops playing.

What you said about Lucario is true, but Tsu-'s results prior to his retirement isn't too big at all, especially comparing with the other characters in his tier, plus about one or two characters in C tier doing better. He shouldn't drop too far/drop out of high tier, but there are other characters in the upper tier doing better, and that is even before Tsu-'s announced retirement.

 

[Iridium]

Sigma just got completely funded for Hyrule Saga! Ri-ma is well on his way too!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Sigma just got completely funded for Hyrule Saga! Ri-ma is well on his way too!

This is very exciting stuff, although I already knew that they signed up to participate long before.

Also, CEO 2018 is now put in the PGR chart, already being an A tier event.

 

[Iridium]

This is very exciting stuff, although I already knew that they signed up to participate long before.

Also, CEO 2018 is now put in the PGR chart, already being an A tier event.

I feel the same way. I have checked the compendium every day, and it is sad to see the amount of players not even close to being funded. Even Ri-ma was not close, but all of a sudden he is. We may not see either Rizeasu or Halo among others.

 

[Aaron1997]

https://twitter.com/SnasenSmash/status/1004760157279211520

https://twitter.com/Neo_xDarkSkyX/status/1004861306657177601

New tech discovered. Might change the game if it's useable enough. Most of the character's that best use this are low tier's but can use it to.

Say goodbye to main weakness if this is Legit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://twitter.com/SnasenSmash/status/1004760157279211520

https://twitter.com/Neo_xDarkSkyX/status/1004861306657177601

New tech discovered. Might change the game if it's useable enough. Most of the character's that best use this are low tier's but can use it to.

Say goodbye to main weakness if this is Legit.

It seems wacky, but interesting to use. Only select few fighters will actually benefit from this, but it seems like a strong mixup option for those fighters.

We are not directly sure how this will affect Kirby though, but it seems to help him in the long run. He still has quite a few significant weaknesses: his frailty, his poor reach, his recovery, you get the point. You are not going to use this tech 24/7 while on the ground, so his mobility issues will still be present.

Btw, I wonder why Lucina's version is this tech is labeled better than Marth's. Should it be the same level of effectiveness?

 

[Iridium]

Light (German Sheik, not ), has just been completely funded for Hyrule Saga! Halo and Rizeasu had a sizable jump too, and actually may get funded later!

 

[MercuryPenny]

Btw, I wonder why Lucina's version is this tech is labeled better than Marth's. Should it be the same level of effectiveness?

yeah probably. the only thing that could give her an edge is that (iirc) jab and up tilt both retain her momentum and marth's don't, but it's nothing i'd consider dealbreaking

 

[Nah]

For some reason the video won't work for me, so what is it that was found?

But whatever it is, "game-changing" might be a bit of a stretch since apparently only a handful of characters can even get significant benefit from it.

 

[The_Bookworm]

For some reason the video won't work for me, so what is it that was found?

But whatever it is, "game-changing" might be a bit of a stretch since apparently only a handful of characters can even get significant benefit from it.

It is some sort of couch-walk technique, that allows you to zoom forward at fast speed. It never told us how it can be done.

It does seem to only provide benefits to only a handful of characters. Makes me wonder if this tech exists in previous smash games.

Edit: overall not game changing from what I can tell, but a very cool find nevertheless.

 

[Phan7om]

https://twitter.com/SnasenSmash/status/1004760157279211520

https://twitter.com/Neo_xDarkSkyX/status/1004861306657177601

New tech discovered. Might change the game if it's useable enough. Most of the character's that best use this are low tier's but can use it to.

Say goodbye to main weakness if this is Legit.

From the 2nd tweet Im pretty sure hes not listing how good the slide is, hes just showing how long each character's Uturn distance is, especially since he said he did testing a while ago. Plus, Idk how characters without a crawl would even do this since the tech shows WFT switching to different crawl positions. Doesn't look like step dash where you get a boost from crouching.

 

[J0eyboi]

From the 2nd tweet Im pretty sure hes not listing how good the slide is, hes just showing how long each character's Uturn distance is, especially since he said he did testing a while ago. Plus, Idk how characters without a crawl would even do this since the tech shows WFT switching to different crawl positions. Doesn't look like step dash where you get a boost from crouching.

That's definitely not what that chart is. Luigi is listed as Yellow along with Rosa, and those two's turnarounds aren't even close to comparable. Sonic is orange. That said, it doesn't actually seem to be for this tech.

In other news, Mewtwo still abuses the **** out of every known movement tech.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Light (German Sheik, not ), has just been completely funded for Hyrule Saga! Halo and Rizeasu had a sizable jump too, and actually may get funded later!

hyrule saga is really close to passing genesis 5 in attendance

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

The tech being used is some form of turn around cancel/step dash hybrid. We've know about Turn around cancel for a while now but I haven't seen it used to such extremes before that allow Wii Fit to essentially fly across the stage while grounded. Having the ability to cancel this with shield or jump and using any attack during it is actually pretty useful. I've seen this referred to as a U-Turn and other things and it appears all characters can use it just not too the same extends. Useful? For sure especially if your character gains good distance you can do hip checks (Turnaround Ftilt that Foxes often use) with any move essentially. Can cover more stage with your moves as your still moving forward as you use them slightly. And just use the tricky movement as a general movement bait to get the opponent to whiff or hesitate.

Ground breaking? Yet to be determined but I doubt it to be honest.

 

[Yonder]

Like most discovered techs, we say it is groundbreaking but then it doesn't appear in tournament play. So I always reserve judgement. Looks cool but until I see it successfully used, then idk.

Diddy will be a monster if it does come into fruition though.

 

[Das Koopa]

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...stats-attendance-viewership-and-sponsorships/

giant article looking at the state of Smash 4

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

hyrule saga is really close to passing genesis 5 in attendance

The amount of attendees keeps rising, it's going to be a sizeable tournament for sure.

 

[The_Bookworm]

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...stats-attendance-viewership-and-sponsorships/

giant article looking at the state of Smash 4

Looking good. Glad that this clears up the Bayo shenanigans that lingered in everyone's mind at Frostbite. Also cool to see Wario rising up, although I kinda expected that, and Ness remaining top 20-ish in results.

Also, I wonder what Cloud would like in overall results if the latest phase was added, as he rose back to top 3 in results ever since his disappointing performance at March 2018.

Oh, and can you post the character's results for April (and if possible, May) in the tier list maker format like you usually do? Thanks for the article and keep up the good work!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Might as well update this the tourneys for this weekend:


ALPHA II (69 Attendees) (Tristate) (C Tier)

PGR'ed Players
Dabuz
Mr. E
Fatality
6WX
Vinnie

Notable Players
Ralphie
Dark Wizzy
Sinji
Raptor
Odyssey
Scot!
Glare
DKWill



Super Smash Fight Club 2 (Texas) (C Tier)
PGR'ed Players
It disappeared off of Smash gg, probably due to an URL error. I will edit it in when it comes back.



Saints Gaming Live 2018 (53 Attendees) (Canada) (C Tier)

PGR'ed Players
Tweek
Larry Lurr
Mistake
Marss
ANTi
Samsora

Notable Players
Captain L
Blacktwins
THUNDER
smasher1001
Deathorse

 

[ArnoldPalmer]

It seems wacky, but interesting to use. Only select few fighters will actually benefit from this, but it seems like a strong mixup option for those fighters.

We are not directly sure how this will affect Kirby though, but it seems to help him in the long run. He still has quite a few significant weaknesses: his frailty, his poor reach, his recovery, you get the point. You are not going to use this tech 24/7 while on the ground, so his mobility issues will still be present.

Btw, I wonder why Lucina's version is this tech is labeled better than Marth's. Should it be the same level of effectiveness?

this is just one of the ways to do a step dash, nothing really new tbh

 

[Ordeaux26]

Notable Players
Captain L

do you guys think captain l will be pgr'ed this season

 

[The_Bookworm]

do you guys think captain l will be pgr'ed this season

It is hard to say. If he isn't, then it either not showing up in too many PGR'ed events, his 65th placing at Frostbite, simply losing out due to how stacked for the 41st-50th position of the PGR is now, or all of the above.

I (as of 6/8/18) put him almost in the top 50, due to these above factors. If the honorable mentions goes in order, he would be 52nd in my predicted PGR v5.

 

[Lord Dio]

do you guys think captain l will be pgr'ed this season

I think so, having wins on mr r and leo definitely helps a lot tbh
not a lot of really good placements, yeah, but two super big wins

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

do you guys think captain l will be pgr'ed this season

Yes, captain has some notable wins over top players under his belt.

 

[|RK|]

All M2 really got from the changes was a bit of mobility, Fair being made a better combo breaker and safer on shield and landing Nair bull**** becoming a thing. He still had his good neutral and disadvantage, godly dtilt, 40% fair chains, uair>fair killing at 50, Shadow Ball, and all that other bull**** M2 is known for today save the Nair>footstool infinite.

Even if that weren't the case, Mewtwo was ranked 37th, in the low tier, on the first tier list, which came out in 1.1.3, the patch in which M2 got all of the buffs that mattered. All he got in 1.1.5 was a bit more ground speed and a slightly better hitbox on Nair, yet back in 1.1.3 he still had no results, because no one actually used him. Regardless of how much he was buffed, it's very clear if you look at the facts that his jump from low tier to top tier had nothing to do with them and everything to do with Pound 2016.

The same thing is true of Marth, by the way, though to a lesser extent; the buffs he got post-1.1.3 were actually meaningful, but they were nowhere near as big as all his previous ones.

Shadow Ball was smaller, too. I remember this distinctly because Kirby used to crouch it

But on a more meta-relevant point, that makes it better for ledgetrapping.

EDIT: Also, pretty sure Tsu- is going to CEO.

 

[Ordeaux26]

I think so, having wins on mr r and leo definitely helps a lot tbh
not a lot of really good placements, yeah, but two super big wins

he has pretty good placement like

25th Genesis 5
13th Smash Masters League: Battle for Vegas
17th Get On My Level 2018
13th Smash N Splash 4

all of which are a-tier

CloudHead has him at 34th so it definitely is a possibility

AC back in late 2017 didn't have much good placements except for 9th at Fire Emblem Saga
and Vinnie got on despite having nothing of really big not except for 9th at Dreamhack Atlanta

so yeah i think its a pretty good possibility

 

[TDK]

https://intheloop837.wordpress.com/...stats-attendance-viewership-and-sponsorships/

giant article looking at the state of Smash 4

Excellent article, as always.

You mentioned wondering what the most common character pre-Bayo the bayo mains used. This list isn't perfect, but here's what I've got:

Spoiler: players I used

Note: This was off the top of my head, I tried to include any that had a notable result (top 48 at a post-nerf Supermajor, but I went as far back as 2016 for a few of them since there were a few definitive best bayos back then too)
- Salem
- Mistake
- Lima
- Captain Zack
- Tyroy
- Tweek
- Abadango
- Chag
- 9B (Retired?)
- AeroLink (25th at G4)
- Shu (Won an Umebura this year, qualified for Tokaigi)
- ikep (Best active JP Bayo?)
- Griffith (Best EU Bayo)
- Wonf (Best Mexican Bayo)
- Saj (Pretty forgotten now, but was the best Bayo in 2016 and the first one to see success post-nerf)
- Pink Fresh (Included for a similar reason to Saj)
- Black Yoshi (33rd at Frostbite 2017, win on Abadango)

- 4 (Captain Zack, Pink Fresh, Saj, Lima)
- 3 (Salem, Shu, Tyroy)
- 2 (Salem, Mistake)
- 1 (9B)
- 1 (Abadango, still uses Mewtwo to some extent)
- 1 (AeroLink, during customs era. I'm unsure who AeroLink used between the customs ban and Bayo's release, but I'm assuming it was still Palutena.)
- 1 (Griffith, still plays him to some extent)
- 1 (Griffith, still plays him to some extent)
- 1 (ikep)
- 1 (Pink Fresh)
- 1 (Pink Fresh)
- 1 (Wonf, still uses Sonic to some extent)
- 1 (Tyroy)
- 1 (Tweek)
- 1 (Tweek)
- 1 (Tweek, still co-mains him)
- 1 (Tweek, still uses him as a counterpick sometimes)

Mistake and Lima are guesses, and I couldn't find any data for Chag or Black Yoshi, who I also included here. Sheik is up there, as you suspected, and ZSS having more than 1 makes sense since they're very similar, but it's actually Peach who lost the most, and past those there isn't really any correlation.

 

[Jaguar360]

Excellent article, as always.

You mentioned wondering what the most common character pre-Bayo the bayo mains used. This list isn't perfect, but here's what I've got:

Spoiler: players I used

Note: This was off the top of my head, I tried to include any that had a notable result (top 48 at a post-nerf Supermajor, but I went as far back as 2016 for a few of them since there were a few definitive best bayos back then too)
- Salem
- Mistake
- Lima
- Captain Zack
- Tyroy
- Tweek
- Abadango
- Chag
- 9B (Retired?)
- AeroLink (25th at G4)
- Shu (Won an Umebura this year, qualified for Tokaigi)
- ikep (Best active JP Bayo?)
- Griffith (Best EU Bayo)
- Wonf (Best Mexican Bayo)
- Saj (Pretty forgotten now, but was the best Bayo in 2016 and the first one to see success post-nerf)
- Pink Fresh (Included for a similar reason to Saj)
- Black Yoshi (33rd at Frostbite 2017, win on Abadango)

- 4 (Captain Zack, Pink Fresh, Saj, Lima)
- 3 (Salem, Shu, Tyroy)
- 2 (Salem, Mistake)
- 1 (9B)
- 1 (Abadango, still uses Mewtwo to some extent)
- 1 (AeroLink, during customs era. I'm unsure who AeroLink used between the customs ban and Bayo's release, but I'm assuming it was still Palutena.)
- 1 (Griffith, still plays him to some extent)
- 1 (Griffith, still plays him to some extent)
- 1 (ikep)
- 1 (Pink Fresh)
- 1 (Pink Fresh)
- 1 (Wonf, still uses Sonic to some extent)
- 1 (Tyroy)
- 1 (Tweek)
- 1 (Tweek)
- 1 (Tweek, still co-mains him)
- 1 (Tweek, still uses him as a counterpick sometimes)

Mistake and Lima are guesses, and I couldn't find any data for Chag or Black Yoshi, who I also included here. Sheik is up there, as you suspected, and ZSS having more than 1 makes sense since they're very similar, but it's actually Peach who lost the most, and past those there isn't really any correlation.

Griffith also played Sheik and ZSS pre-Bayo, honestly a little more than Megaman/Fox at the time. Black Yoshi did use some Yoshi alongside Bayo earlier on and is starting to do so again, but I can't find anything of him before Bayo was released in early 2016. Aerolink did indeed use Palu outside customs.

Bonus picks:
Vivid/justy (Top 3 player in New Jersey, still uses Lucario to an extent)
Riot/RiotLettuce (2nd/3rd best Bayo in Florida)
Shu (#64 in Japan for 2017)
RAIN (#30 in Japan, Still uses Cloud)
Es (#62 in Japan for 2017, still uses ZSS somewhat)
JeBB (top player in MD/VA)
Badr (#6 in the Netherlands)
Myollnir (#4 in France)
Rydle (#5 in Spain, player to get Bayo banned pre-patch in some areas of Spain to my understanding)
Ghost (#3 in Australia)

 

[Lord Dio]

something that came to mind, who did Zackray use before corrin and bayo? I remember seeing him making a couple placements, and he was at that tokaigi that nairo leo ally and larry went to

 

[MarioManTAW]

Regarding who Bayo/Cloud mains played pre-DLC, one thing to note is that not all of the players played competitively prior to the DLC, meaning they may have always mained one of those characters.

Continuing the trend with the top Cloud mains:
: 3 (Javi (still uses her), Masashi, RAIN)
: 2 (Ned, ANTi (still uses her))
: 2 (ANTi, Blacktwins (both still use him))
: 2 (Mew2King (pre-patch), RAIN)
: 1 (MKLeo)
: 1 (komorikiri)
: 1 (MKLeo)
: 1 (Tweek)
: 1 (MattyG)
: 1 (Salt One)

Honestly thought Marth would be a lot higher, and what do you know, Sheik is prominent here as well.

 

[Iridium]

something that came to mind, who did Zackray use before corrin and bayo? I remember seeing him making a couple placements, and he was at that tokaigi that nairo leo ally and larry went to

I know Zackray does have a Marth as well, so maybe that is your answer. In some online tournaments, I have even seen him go Mii Brawler, but I do not think that counts.

 

[Iridium]

Shadow Ball was smaller, too. I remember this distinctly because Kirby used to crouch it

But on a more meta-relevant point, that makes it better for ledgetrapping.

EDIT: Also, pretty sure Tsu- is going to CEO.

Is he? I will check, because I remember there was a compendium for him among others to get funded.

Edit: Not sure about that. He did recently say he would stop playing Smash for now.

Edit: I need to stop with these accidental double posts.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I know Zackray does have a Marth as well, so maybe that is your answer. In some online tournaments, I have even seen him go Mii Brawler, but I do not think that count.

That reminds of the fact that komorikiri, waaaay back in the day, was partially responsible for Sumabato's current ruleset regarding Miis, having laid terror to the bracket with a fully unlocked Mii Brawler. XD

I found this piece of information on the SmashWiki, and it cracks me up to this day.

 

[|RK|]

Is he? I will check, because I remember there was a compendium for him among others to get funded.

Edit: Not sure about that. He did recently say he would stop playing Smash for now.

Oh, NVM. Fatality had been asking him to play dubs at CEO, but I see that he responded after saying he couldn't make it.

 

[Ordeaux26]

: 1 (MKLeo)

MKLeo still uses marth alot actually

 

[MarioManTAW]

Whoops, missed that one. Still uses MK on occasion, too, but don't know if he has since ZeRo quit.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Whoops, missed that one. Still uses MK on occasion, too, but don't know if he has since ZeRo quit.

He did, but it stopped showing up in tournaments after February 2018. During March and some of April, MKLeo was focusing on using Marth mainly and using Bayonetta for certain matchups. However, starting at Switchfest he began to use Cloud regularly again alongside his usual Marth, and he only uses Bayo for DK/Bowser and in doubles if Cloud is banned. Other than that, we haven't seen his MK in months at major events.

 

[Lord Dio]

pretty sure the last time we saw MK from leo was at tokaigi
..............where it got 4-0'ed by Nairo.............