Official 4BR Tier List V4 - Competitive Insight & Analysis

[Envoy of Chaos]

I'm just gonna put this here

https://smashboards.com/threads/bef...-was-never-as-bad-as-many-people-said.455070/

Dabuz's commentary at SnS was mind-numbingly awful when it came to Mewtwo but to be fair on him, he only repeated the same minsinformation that everyone else repeats.

Everyone thinks that Mewtwo's buffs were so dramatic, possibly the most buffed character in the entire game, that it dragged him from bottom to top tier. That really is a naive viewpoint because it completely disregards all of the buffs given to all of the other characters. When you consider that tier lists are a comparison, you must compare Mewtwos buffs to the buffs given to characters around him. The fact that he shot so high up the tier list, while many other stayed stagnant despite getting just as many potent buffs and in some cases exceeding those that Mewtwo was given (Ike is the best example) proves one thing; Mewtwo was always good, people just never bothered to try.

I don't think it's too far fetched to say M2 was one of the most, possibly the most buffed character in terms of their relative tiering pre-buffs. Granted M2 wasn't out for too long before he was buffed and he wasn't getting much in terms of results pre-buff so I think it's a fair assumption to make that he wasn't really all that great before he got buffed. We didn't have two years to work with a pre-buff M2 to see how much potential he had like we do with his post buff version.

I do think Marthcina was the most buffed character in Smash 4 however

 

[J0eyboi]

No. Granted that some people thought Mewtwo so was underrated before the buffs, but his strengths didn't stack up to his weaknesses before the buffs. He was designed to be a glass cannon, but his strengths didn't make up for his frality.

After the buffs, Mewtwo's offense was highly increased further, making him act like a proper glass cannon like Fox, and his results drastically improved thanks to that. Most other characters who receive such a number of buffs, though it ends up helping them in the long run, but it doesn't properly compensate/ doesn't fully address their weaknesses. Falco and Ganondorf is the best examples of this.

Btw, Mewtwo was low tier, not bottom tier, before the buffs.

All M2 really got from the changes was a bit of mobility, Fair being made a better combo breaker and safer on shield and landing Nair bull**** becoming a thing. He still had his good neutral and disadvantage, godly dtilt, 40% fair chains, uair>fair killing at 50, Shadow Ball, and all that other bull**** M2 is known for today save the Nair>footstool infinite.

Even if that weren't the case, Mewtwo was ranked 37th, in the low tier, on the first tier list, which came out in 1.1.3, the patch in which M2 got all of the buffs that mattered. All he got in 1.1.5 was a bit more ground speed and a slightly better hitbox on Nair, yet back in 1.1.3 he still had no results, because no one actually used him. Regardless of how much he was buffed, it's very clear if you look at the facts that his jump from low tier to top tier had nothing to do with them and everything to do with Pound 2016.

The same thing is true of Marth, by the way, though to a lesser extent; the buffs he got post-1.1.3 were actually meaningful, but they were nowhere near as big as all his previous ones.

 

[ARISTOS]

All M2 really got from the changes was a bit of mobility,

This understates the mobility buff quite a bit- he went from being slower than Donkey Kong to being faster than Sheik. Those are huge mobility buffs in a game where mobility is king.

Don't think Mewtwo was quite bottom tier garbage but the buffs were huge

 

[The_Bookworm]

All M2 really got from the changes was a bit of mobility, Fair being made a better combo breaker and safer on shield and landing Nair bull**** becoming a thing. He still had his good neutral and disadvantage, godly dtilt, 40% fair chains, uair>fair killing at 50, Shadow Ball, and all that other bull**** M2 is known for today save the Nair>footstool infinite.

Even if that weren't the case, Mewtwo was ranked 37th, in the low tier, on the first tier list, which came out in 1.1.3, the patch in which M2 got all of the buffs that mattered. All he got in 1.1.5 was a bit more ground speed and a slightly better hitbox on Nair, yet back in 1.1.3 he still had no results, because no one actually used him. Regardless of how much he was buffed, it's very clear if you look at the facts that his jump from low tier to top tier had nothing to do with them and everything to do with Pound 2016.

The same thing is true of Marth, by the way, though to a lesser extent; the buffs he got post-1.1.3 were actually meaningful, but they were nowhere near as big as all his previous ones.

All of this is true to an extent, but I think Browny was comparing Mewtwo when he received absolutely no buffs, to now.

Also, like what Aristos said, it was a large mobility buff.

 

[J0eyboi]

All of this is true to an extent, but I think Browny was comparing Mewtwo when he received absolutely no buffs, to now.

Most of what I said applied to that period.

Actually, let's ask this another way: What did the buffs actually do for Mewtwo? What strengths did Mewtwo not have that he does now? What weaknesses did he have that the buffs removed? Because if you actually look at it, it's probably less than you think.

The big one is mobility, yes. Going from 1/1.7/1.15 walk/run/air to 1.2/2.05/1.25 is a big boost, but 1/1.7/1.15 is still extremely respectable. He was as fast as or faster than Mario at everything except walking. The mobility buffs are a great argument for why Mewtwo is top tier now, but the lack of them wasn't crippling enough (or really at all) to warrant Mewtwo being low-tier.

Another one is shield safety, but the buffs helped M2's shield safety a lot less than you'd think. The only move that was unsafe prepatch and safe postpatch for which that actually matters is Nair.

What about combos then? As I said, landing Nair shenanigans weren't a thing, but Nair itself was still very useful in combos. It's actionable only 6 frames after its last hit and autocancels from the same frame. In fact, none of M2's aerials had their non-landing frame data altered at all save for taking 1 frame of startup off fair. This means his aerial combo game was exactly the same as it is now (maybe slightly worse due to the lower airspeed), and he could start combos in all the same ways as well, save for, obviously, landing Nair.

So his combo game was largely the same, his mobility, while worse, was still quite good, and his shield safety wasn't much different. His disadvantage wasn't really buffed, his advantage was basically the same as well, his tail was always disjointed, his perfect pivot was always dumb, and he always had Shadow Ball. The only big things he gained were the mobility buff he didn't need and improvements to Nair.

I'm not trying to undersell either change, both did quite a bit for Mewtwo, but other characters who got similar buffs moved nowhere near as much. Additionally, Mewtwo's tier jump happened independently of the buffs, which proves that how good he actually was wasn't the deciding factor in his placement, and misinformation about Mewtwo has been everywhere since launch. Considering all that, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Mewtwo was highly underrated at launch. He wasn't top tier, that mobility buff was big and prepatch top tiers were much stronger than current top tiers, but he wasn't nearly as bad as people made him out to be.

One other thing:

This understates the mobility buff quite a bit- he went from being slower than Donkey Kong to being faster than Sheik. Those are huge mobility buffs in a game where mobility is king.

Fun fact: Every single E-tier save Ike has either top 15 run speed, top 15 airspeed, or both, along with a walk speed above the median. Meanwhile, every single B-tier save Falcon and Lucina has either a runspeed or airspeed in the lower half of the cast. Mobility can make or break a character, but it's not even close to king, in this game or in Melee. It's more like a big political party.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Most of what I said applied to that period.

Actually, let's ask this another way: What did the buffs actually do for Mewtwo? What strengths did Mewtwo not have that he does now? What weaknesses did he have that the buffs removed? Because if you actually look at it, it's probably less than you think.

The big one is mobility, yes. Going from 1/1.7/1.15 walk/run/air to 1.2/2.05/1.25 is a big boost, but 1/1.7/1.15 is still extremely respectable. He was as fast as or faster than Mario at everything except walking. The mobility buffs are a great argument for why Mewtwo is top tier now, but the lack of them wasn't crippling enough (or really at all) to warrant Mewtwo being low-tier.

Another one is shield safety, but the buffs helped M2's shield safety a lot less than you'd think. The only move that was unsafe prepatch and safe postpatch for which that actually matters is Nair.

What about combos then? As I said, landing Nair shenanigans weren't a thing, but Nair itself was still very useful in combos. It's actionable only 6 frames after its last hit and autocancels from the same frame. In fact, none of M2's aerials had their non-landing frame data altered at all save for taking 1 frame of startup off fair. This means his aerial combo game was exactly the same as it is now (maybe slightly worse due to the lower airspeed), and he could start combos in all the same ways as well, save for, obviously, landing Nair.

So his combo game was largely the same, his mobility, while worse, was still quite good, and his shield safety wasn't much different. His disadvantage wasn't really buffed, his advantage was basically the same as well, his tail was always disjointed, his perfect pivot was always dumb, and he always had Shadow Ball. The only big things he gained were the mobility buff he didn't need and improvements to Nair.

I'm not trying to undersell either change, both did quite a bit for Mewtwo, but other characters who got similar buffs moved nowhere near as much. Additionally, Mewtwo's tier jump happened independently of the buffs, which proves that how good he actually was wasn't the deciding factor in his placement, and misinformation about Mewtwo has been everywhere since launch. Considering all that, I think it's pretty safe to assume that Mewtwo was highly underrated at launch. He wasn't top tier, that mobility buff was big and prepatch top tiers were much stronger than current top tiers, but he wasn't nearly as bad as people made him out to be.

Yeah, but it is similar to Falco: he has the combo tools and some good mobility, but he needed something even bigger to make up such a big weakness that is his extreme frailty and his slightly below-average frame data (especially prior to 1.1.3). The buffs given to Mewtwo by the patches did the trick.

 

[Minordeth]

Characters get underrated based on surface level opinions. This isn’t shocking. Remember when Cloud was “just okay” on release? Sometimes, it really is just a matter of top shelf representation. Which Mewtwo didn’t have until Aba.

It doesn’t help that to new players, Mewtwo probably moves around like a bulkier, less accessible Ness.

Yeah, but it is similar to Falco: he has the combo tools and some good mobility, but he needed something even bigger to make up such a big weakness that is his extreme frailty and his slightly below-average frame data (especially prior to 1.1.3). The buffs given to Mewtwo by the patches did the trick.

Falco has trash mobility. The dev team had a prime candidate for a cool contrasting rework with Fox:
While Fox is highly mobile on the ground and okay in the air, Falco could have had decent ground mobility and Wario/Cloud levels of aerial mobility. Get opponents into some of those multi hits, and start off a dope aerial combo with drag down and launching shenanigans.

Instead, they gave him trash multihits and crazy vertical mobility while forgetting the X-axis existed.

Meanwhile, on his release, Mewtwo started with Shadow Ball.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Aba's victory with Mewtwo at pound 2016 showed players that he was a very capable character. Shadow Ball is probably the best chargeable projectile in Smash 4, it has so many great uses.

 

[The_Bookworm]

C
Falco has trash mobility. The dev team had a prime candidate for a cool contrasting rework with Fox:
While Fox is highly mobile on the ground and okay in the air, Falco could have had decent ground mobility and Wario/Cloud levels of aerial mobility. Get opponents into some of those multi hits, and start off a dope aerial combo with drag down and launching shenanigans.

Instead, they gave him trash multihits and crazy vertical mobility while forgetting the X-axis existed.

Meanwhile, on his release, Mewtwo started with Shadow Ball.

I was talking about having some good tools, but having a significant flaw that puts it into mediocre (at best) use. Falco's issues/strengths are different from Mewtwo's, I was just using Falco as an example.

 

[J0eyboi]

I was talking about having some good tools, but having a significant flaw that puts it into mediocre (at best) use. Falco's issues/strengths are different from Mewtwo's, I was just using Falco as an example.

I just made an entire post about how Mewtwo doesn't have any significant flaws. The closest thing he has to one is his weight, which isn't that significant given his amazing disadvantage and which patches really didn't address.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I just made an entire post about how Mewtwo doesn't have any significant flaws. The closest thing he has to one is his weight, which isn't that significant given his amazing disadvantage and which patches really didn't address.

Second lightest character in the game (now tied for second after the patches). One of the tallest characters in the game. Rage exists. That is a big flaw.

While patches don't directly address this, patches would improve his offense further (which is also thanks to his mobility improving even further to make even better use of his strengths), his frame data would noticeably improve, there would be nerfs to his hardest matchups (pre-patch Sheik absolutely demolished him), and they would make him little heavier.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Dabuz released his final tier list before Smash 5. He will explain his tier list later. Here it is...

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

 

[J0eyboi]

Second lightest character in the game (now tied for second after the patches). One of the tallest characters in the game. Rage exists. That is a big flaw.

While patches don't directly address this,

So you've just admitted Mewtwo didn't have any major weaknesses that patches addressed.

patches would improve his offense further (which is also thanks to his mobility improving even further to make even better use of his strengths),

...

All M2 really got from the changes was a bit of mobility, Fair being made a better combo breaker and safer on shield and landing Nair bull**** becoming a thing. He still had his good neutral and disadvantage, godly dtilt, 40% fair chains, uair>fair killing at 50, Shadow Ball, and all that other bull**** M2 is known for today save the Nair>footstool infinite.

his frame data would noticeably improve,

Besides reduced landing lag, which, like I said, didn't do much:

Another one is shield safety, but the buffs helped M2's shield safety a lot less than you'd think. The only move that was unsafe prepatch and safe postpatch for which that actually matters is Nair.

Mewtwo only got 2 frame data improvements, neither of which were particularly significant or noticeable.

there would be nerfs to his hardest matchups (pre-patch Sheik absolutely demolished him),

One bad matchup does not a low-tier make.

At this point, I'm convinced that you're either not reading my posts or unaware of what the M2 buffs were. Whichever one it is, fix it please.

 

[Ordeaux26]

Dabuz released his final tier list before Smash 5. He will explain his tier list later. Here it is...

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

pretty good tier list

 

[san.]

Ike's buffs are overstated. He received sizable buffs, but he was not buffed more than quite a few characters. Ike's run speed was never buffed through a patch, just from Brawl to Smash 4 (though his initial dash was always 1.5 and the initial dash was all he used in Brawl).

Some of Ike's moves were both buffed and nerfed (ftilt frame 15->12, sweetspot damage 14%->12.5%, angled hitboxes reduced), made to fix broken elements (jab), or reverted some nerfs from Brawl. Many buffs affected situational attacks such as dash attack and counter.

Ike always had throw combos, buffs just gave more options to 50/50s at death percents with easier kill confirms at low to mid rage, which is pretty significant.

Best noticeable buffs that aren't fixes:
-Bair 13->14% (revert nerf from Brawl)
-All of the fair changes, increasing speed, hitbox size, and damage
-jab1->2 transition frame 13->10
-Side B startup frame 19->16
-Dtilt made to pop up instead of send people out, end lag -10, hitbox size slightly reduced
-Nair landing lag -2, uair and dair landing lag -3
-Dash Attack 10->14% damage and increased hitbox
-Counter knockback increase so it's usable
-Many miscellaneous/unnoticeable changes, such as fsmash sourspot improvements and nair's damage/angle change

There's quite a bit of stuff here, but outside of fair and modest landing lag improvements, there weren't too many significant changes for him after the patch from 3DS -> Wii U. None of his best tools were given significant improvements outside of fair, and perhaps the nair landing lag and bair damage increase. Ike was made quite a bit better and more well rounded, but I wouldn't say significantly better.

Compare to Mewtwo that had many landing lag decreases by 4+ frames on all aerials, 20% faster movement speed buffs, increased hitbox sizes, lingering hitboxes, etc. It's clear that he was buffed significantly more than Ike. A Mewtwo-level buff on Ike would be decreasing his bair landing lag by 4, like Mewtwo's fair had, but instead it is relatively untouched.

Characters have to be fully reevaluated after patches. It's normal that characters such as Mewtwo and Marth may have taken a bit longer to see the impact of the change. Same with how nerfs affected Sheik, Diddy, and Bayonetta.

 

[J0eyboi]

There's quite a bit of stuff here, but outside of fair and modest landing lag improvements, there weren't too many significant changes for him after the patch from 3DS -> Wii U. None of his best tools were given significant improvements outside of fair, and perhaps the nair landing lag and bair damage increase.

Uh

-Dtilt made to pop up instead of send people out, end lag -10, hitbox size slightly reduced

Gotta say, I think this may count as a significant improvement. Sure, it wasn't one of his best tools before, but it is now, and I'd put gaining a new tool way ahead of buffing an old one.

A Mewtwo-level buff on Ike would be decreasing his bair landing lag by 4, like Mewtwo's fair had, but instead it is relatively untouched.

The lower landing lag on Fair didn't actually help M2 much. Landing fair led to all the same things it does now and was still safe. A Mewtwo-like buff would be getting significantly lower endlag and better follow-up options on a subpar move, making it significantly more useful and thus giving him more tools to work with.



*cough*

-Dtilt made to pop up instead of send people out, end lag -10, hitbox size slightly reduced

*cough*

 

[The_Bookworm]

Dabuz released his final tier list before Smash 5. He will explain his tier list later. Here it is...

View attachment 147026

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

Good tier list overall, but it is a shame that he thinks very little of Rob and the Pits. Rob should be in the C-D tier areas, while the Pits should be at the D tier area.

Ike's buffs are overstated. He received sizable buffs, but he was not buffed more than quite a few characters. Ike's run speed was never buffed through a patch, just from Brawl to Smash 4 (though his initial dash was always 1.5 and the initial dash was all he used in Brawl).

Some of Ike's moves were both buffed and nerfed (ftilt frame 15->12, sweetspot damage 14%->12.5%, angled hitboxes reduced), made to fix broken elements (jab), or reverted some nerfs from Brawl. Many buffs affected situational attacks such as dash attack and counter.

Ike always had throw combos, buffs just gave more options to 50/50s at death percents with easier kill confirms at low to mid rage, which is pretty significant.

Best noticeable buffs that aren't fixes:
-Bair 13->14% (revert nerf from Brawl)
-All of the fair changes, increasing speed, hitbox size, and damage
-jab1->2 transition frame 13->10
-Side B startup frame 19->16
-Dtilt made to pop up instead of send people out, end lag -10, hitbox size slightly reduced
-Nair landing lag -2, uair and dair landing lag -3
-Dash Attack 10->14% damage and increased hitbox
-Counter knockback increase so it's usable
-Many miscellaneous/unnoticeable changes, such as fsmash sourspot improvements and nair's damage/angle change

There's quite a bit of stuff here, but outside of fair and modest landing lag improvements, there weren't too many significant changes for him after the patch from 3DS -> Wii U. None of his best tools were given significant improvements outside of fair, and perhaps the nair landing lag and bair damage increase. Ike was made quite a bit better and more well rounded, but I wouldn't say significantly better.

Compare to Mewtwo that had many landing lag decreases by 4+ frames on all aerials, 20% faster movement speed buffs, increased hitbox sizes, lingering hitboxes, etc. It's clear that he was buffed significantly more than Ike. A Mewtwo-level buff on Ike would be decreasing his bair landing lag by 4, like Mewtwo's fair had, but instead it is relatively untouched.

Characters have to be fully reevaluated after patches. It's normal that characters such as Mewtwo and Marth may have taken a bit longer to see the impact of the change. Same with how nerfs affected Sheik, Diddy, and Bayonetta.

THE San?! Your Ike is pretty nice.

It is a noticible trend of characters getting slowly evaluated after a patch. Just imagine a game of SSB4 without any balance patches.

Btw, what do you think of Ike? Do you see him being ranked 40th, or do you think he should increase (like myself)? He seems too low for a character that is about the same viability as in Brawl, and there was you placing 4th at GOML 2017.

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

Dabuz released his final tier list before Smash 5. He will explain his tier list later. Here it is...

View attachment 147026

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

No arguments here, I'd say that's a good tier list.

 

[Iridium]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I know this tweet sounds weird, but it sounds like Tsu- is giving up Smash 4 now. Maybe he will come back for Smash Switch. How I find these tweets remains a secret.

 

[The_Bookworm]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I know this tweet sounds weird, but it sounds like Tsu- is giving up Smash 4 now. Maybe he will come back for Smash Switch. How I find these tweets remains a secret.

That is a very weird and random post. LOL and TMI at the extreme.

But if it true that he is giving up SSB4, then it is a big shame. He pretty much led the Lucario meta, and was there when the character's views where dropping at late 2016 with an unforgettable performance at Frostbite. At least it is close to the next smash game, so....

 

[Ordeaux26]

No arguments here, I'd say that's a good tier list.

yeah as I have said before the metagame for Smash 4 has been pretty much set in stone like what happens with every competitive game that isn't patched actively

 

[ARGHETH]

Gotta say, I think this may count as a significant improvement. Sure, it wasn't one of his best tools before, but it is now, and I'd put gaining a new tool way ahead of buffing an old one.

That was from 1.0.4, which was the 3DS->WiiU patch he was talking about. So for all of Smash WiiU's lifespan, Ike had that Dtilt.

 

[Minordeth]

I was talking about having some good tools, but having a significant flaw that puts it into mediocre (at best) use. Falco's issues/strengths are different from Mewtwo's, I was just using Falco as an example.

Falco is a bad example, tho. My point, as is @Browny’s and @J0eyboi’s, is that Mewtwo was already good pre-mobility buff.

Every character in this game has “good tools.” But because Smash has such freedom of movement and the ability to have micro interactions between tools, buffs are all relative to the rest of the character, and like san. said, post patch evaluations are necessary even with seemingly minor buffs.

Marth is the biggest example of a crap character turning into a tournament threat through patching. Mewtwo needed less, relatively speaking.

Dabuz released his final tier list before Smash 5. He will explain his tier list later. Here it is...

View attachment 147026

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

Greninja’s horrifically underrated, but whatever. Dabuz didn’t have a whole lot to say, other than Gren seems to commit a lot when he attacks, and his movement is weird. But! The frog doesn’t have a whole lot of national results, so again, whatever.

It’s an unsurprising list. I don’t see Bayo and Cloud deserving of their own tier. His Fox placement reflects my own feelings, tho. Put Mewtwo up there with ZSS, Sonic, and Rosa, and I’m good.

He thinks Marth is gonna drop more, as Bayos play Leo like Salem did. I doubt it, as Salem was specifically picking on Leo habits and had clearly done his homework. He chalks it up to Marth having essentially bad CQC, but Marth has better CQC than Bayo by virtue of jab, DB, and Dtilt alone. For instance, Leo could adjust by using more pp-dtilt and pp-jab.

Jab is disgusting, is what I’m saying.

 

[Yonder]

Dabuz released his final tier list before Smash 5. He will explain his tier list later. Here it is...

View attachment 147026

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

IDK about everyone else, but I have qualms with his E and F tier. In particular, Bowser and Rob. Bowser has proven himself on multiple occasions to be a top mid/bottom high tier along with DK. There's no way he's in the second lowest tier by a long shot. Asides from maybe Game and Watch, no one else in that tier list has placed high in any events of significance beyond a secondary counterpick (Falco via AC,Roy via Komo, Wario via Gluttony)

And ROB isn't in the lowest tier. Again, he has put in a little bit of work and has underrated zoning, along with a still proficient kill confirm I think makes him serviceable in mid tier or bottom of the D/Top of the F. We all know Robin avoids the lowest tier cause of his kill confirm after all.

Meanwhile,you have guys like Villager who haven't done squat sides Panda Bair last week in years above DK and Ness,both with much more active mains. Speaking of Ness, I think the Rosalina in his head must be influencing that placement. I feel he is middle or upper D.

S to C tier is actually perfect though so hats off there.

I feel we sometimes just glaze over the lower tiers if the top tiers look sufficient. A lot of people were letting it slide though so I had to speak up on some glaring flaws.

That Bowser placement...Jesus no.

 

[Browny]

san.
Sorry I thought Ike gained those throw combos. If he always had them, then I would move marth/lucina into the second most buffed character range.

---

A few people here have pointed out a few things which are worth mentioning, most notably, yes Mewtwo was ranked 37th in the first tier list where he is now ranked 10th, so a 27 place jump.

My issue was people like Dabuz saying Mewtwo was the 53rd worst character in the game (or whatever he was at the time) and shot up to 9th according to him, a 44 place jump. That is just absolute insanity. Countless other characters got a slew of buffs in the same time yet they didn't rise and in fact, some of them DROPPED despite getting numerous buffs... because so many other characters got bigger buffs. This is the issue with Mewtwos buffs, they were not THAT much more than what marth/lucina got that it was effectively 2x as much.

As someone who mained Mewtwo in melee and played him exclusively on release in smash 4, I know what it was like. I never really struggled to win with him on release. He had some glitchy nonsense like his bair whiffing repeatedly and nair being bad but that was it. As he got buffed, close games may have tended in my favour more but I didn't feel like matchups swung massively in my favour because every time I got a buff to something, other characters got given monster buffs like Bowser. Mine were more numerous for sure, but they were never so massive and matchup defining like quadrupling your damage output from throws.

The biggest issue I guess besides people not even playing him, was extremely sub-optimal play. I get a new character takes time to master, but to me, it was utterly inexcusable that many mewtwo players did not even know about how full charge shadow ball can actually shieldstab someones head if you short hop before throwing it as an enemy lands. Either you catch them in their landing lag and they die, or they land, shield it and die anyway because it shieldstabs.

Every time someone threw a half charged shadow ball from across the stage, giving the enemy an entire second to react, I got so mad.

It is literally the same as grabbing someone with Bowser today and repeatedly using bthrow, then complaining 'omg this character is bad why hasnt he been buffed'.

 

[The_Bookworm]

IDK about everyone else, but I have qualms with his E and F tier. In particular, Bowser and Rob. Bowser has proven himself on multiple occasions to be a top mid/bottom high tier along with DK. There's no way he's in the second lowest tier by a long shot. Asides from maybe Game and Watch, no one else in that tier list has placed high in any events of significance beyond a secondary counterpick (Falco via AC,Roy via Komo, Wario via Gluttony)

And ROB isn't in the lowest tier. Again, he has put in a little bit of work and has underrated zoning, along with a still proficient kill confirm I think makes him serviceable in mid tier or bottom of the D/Top of the F. We all know Robin avoids the lowest tier cause of his kill confirm after all.

Meanwhile,you have guys like Villager who haven't done squat sides Panda Bair last week in years above DK and Ness,both with much more active mains. Speaking of Ness, I think the Rosalina in his head must be influencing that placement. I feel he is middle or upper D.

S to C tier is actually perfect though so hats off there.

I feel we sometimes just glaze over the lower tiers if the top tiers look sufficient. A lot of people were letting it slide though so I had to speak up on some glaring flaws.

That Bowser placement...Jesus no.

The sad thing about Rob's placement is that he HAS proven himself better, thanks to the recent efforts of 8BitMan, SaSSy, and WaDi (as he steamrolls though SAX tournaments with mostly him). I think he should be at the top of E at worse. Also, the Pits has much better strengths than the F tiered characters, and should at least be in the lower E tier. Dabuz is noticeable supporter about Pits "honesty" being a big bad thing.

Robin does have some dedicated mains to his effort, but other than his kill confirm, he also has a decent zoning/projectile game, and a powerful Leven Sword that does rediculous shield damage. I think his placement of him is accurate for right now, although Ike is better than both Roy and Robin. (Yes I know he puts it "unordered", but still).

I agree on what you say about DK and Ness. However, I think it is understandable why he puts Bowser that low, with very minimal high level mains making little to no impact with him, with Nairo rarely using him. Heck, even the bracket reset against MKLeo is the best thing Bowser did at high level. I do think he should be higher in his tier, but still.

Other than that, very solid tier list from Dabuz. Certainly an improvement from his last one.

 

[MERPIS]

Meanwhile,you have guys like Villager who haven't done squat sides Panda Bair last week in years above DK and Ness,both with much more active mains. Speaking of Ness, I think the Rosalina in his head must be influencing that placement. I feel he is middle or upper D.

He's making a comeback I can see it now

 

[Frihetsanka]

What is your feedback. Otherwise, stay tuned!

Overall, I agree with Dabuz's tier list. The tiers seem largely accurate, although I would move a few characters around within the tiers. He pretty much put Donkey Kong around where I would put him, although I'm not sure if Bowser really deserves to be 4 (or more) spots lower than DK, they have a very similar MU chart. Still, I'm glad to see that he's not overestimating Donkey Kong and/or Bowser. There's really not much I strongly disagree with in this tier list, though there are a few things:

Pac-Man, Wii Fit Trainer, and Dr. Mario should probably be in F tier (although it's hard to say with low tiers, really). Pit and Dark Pit should probably be in E tier: I get that they feel mediocre, but they have a pretty decent MU spread (going -1 with a lot of characters, not -2). I would probably shuffle a few characters a few steps higher or a few steps lower as well, but it's nothing huge, so overall, I think it's very reasonable (more accurate than the most recent 4BR list, I'd say).

 

[Prince Koopa Jr]

A characters spot on the tier list reflects their results/place in the Smash 4 metagame. It's understandable why Dabuz placed Bowser low, he hasn't had a whole lot of results as of late.

 

[The_Bookworm]

A characters spot on the tier list reflects their results/place in the Smash 4 metagame. It's understandable why Dabuz placed Bowser low, he hasn't had a whole lot of results as of late.

Which makes me wonder why he put Bowser Jr, Little Mac, and Rob that low, and put Pikachu and Lucario that high.

 

[JustCallMeJon]

Since we have 6 days before the invitational, Nintendo post 4 special guests to enter the invitational!
Here are the four special guests!

• BlackNerdComedy (Youtuber)
• Zelda Williams (Famous American Actress/Gamer)
• Alanah Pearce (Writer at IGN)
• Devin Graham (Youtuber)

Here is also a link in for that to show:
https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1004453038512275456?s=20

What is your response for the announcement of celebrities. Do you think that they would be on the actual invitational or on exibition? Otherwise, stay tune for more information as the Nintendo's Super Smash Bros for Switch and E3 is coming right around the corner in 6 days! Stay tuned!

 

[The_Bookworm]

Since we have 6 days before the invitational, Nintendo post 4 special guests to enter the invitational!
Here are the four special guests!

• BlackNerdComedy (Youtuber)
• Zelda Williams (Famous American Actress/Gamer)
• Alanah Pearce (Writer at IGN)
• Devin Graham (Youtuber)

Here is also a link in for that to show:
https://twitter.com/NintendoVS/status/1004453038512275456?s=20

What is your response for the announcement of celebrities. Do you think that they would be on the actual invitational or on exibition? Otherwise, stay tune for more information as the Nintendo's Super Smash Bros for Switch and E3 is coming right around the corner in 6 days! Stay tuned!

Don't know what to say about them. I never heard of them before. XD

Nintendo is going in with a bang this E3.

 

[ぱみゅ]

Did you seriously never heard about Zelda Williams before?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Did you seriously never heard about Zelda Williams before?

Now I remember. I remember hearing about her a long time ago.

 

[Browny]

Tier lists IMO should represent the likelihood that if you got 58 equally skilled players and got them to enter 58 separate tournaments with completely random seeding, the average placing of each character would be the tier list.

Theorycraft dominated early in a games lifespan as we attempt to speculate how good characters are, while recency bias will always skew later tier lists. At the end of a games competitive life, there is no more theorycraft and we aren't as easily affected by recency bias because overhyped characters have died down.

Having a tier list reflect the results across the lifespan of the game is perfectly fine. In the case of Tsu, it is fair to argue that skill level of players hasn't increased so dramatically that his results with Lucario are no longer relevant. We can't just ignore that because he hasn't done anything lately, that is giving in to recency bias. The same argument that would have landed Luario in top tier around this time last year, would also land Lucario below mid tier today so it is inaccurate.

Dabuz having Bowser that low does stand out a bit hard but its also possible he is accounting for the fact that bowsers literal explosion in tournament results was a phase. Just because he did well in the past, doesn't mean he always did well. This is different to Lucario who has always done OK with a few really high placements. Bowser in general hasn't done well with a few surprise wins against top players.

 

[Minordeth]

Tier lists IMO should represent the likelihood that if you got 58 equally skilled players and got them to enter 58 separate tournaments with completely random seeding, the average placing of each character would be the tier list.

Theorycraft dominated early in a games lifespan as we attempt to speculate how good characters are, while recency bias will always skew later tier lists. At the end of a games competitive life, there is no more theorycraft and we aren't as easily affected by recency bias because overhyped characters have died down.

Having a tier list reflect the results across the lifespan of the game is perfectly fine. In the case of Tsu, it is fair to argue that skill level of players hasn't increased so dramatically that his results with Lucario are no longer relevant. We can't just ignore that because he hasn't done anything lately, that is giving in to recency bias. The same argument that would have landed Luario in top tier around this time last year, would also land Lucario below mid tier today so it is inaccurate.

Dabuz having Bowser that low does stand out a bit hard but its also possible he is accounting for the fact that bowsers literal explosion in tournament results was a phase. Just because he did well in the past, doesn't mean he always did well. This is different to Lucario who has always done OK with a few really high placements. Bowser in general hasn't done well with a few surprise wins against top players.

Here’s the problem with evaluating Bowser:
His highest placings come from one player. Nairo uses Bowser as a method to distill the game down to 4-5 exchanges. He bets that in those exchanges, he will win neutral the majority of the time, and reach his win condition first. By using Bowser, he eliminates some of the more finesse heavy neutral and technical advantage state by trading it with a poor disadvantage state and more limited options, in order to reach a singular win condition: get the grab at kill percent.

Nairo is possibly the best player in the world at capitalizing on clutch situations. Time and time again, he finds ways to get the grab or hit, converting that one interaction into a win under immense pressure. He knows this, as do his opponents. More often than not, he takes that bet and succeeds. Why not choose a character that streamlines the game into a jousting match?

Of course, he chooses Bowser specifically for a variety of reasons, and we can draw some character specific conclusions. However, how good a top player driven Bowser would be throughout a long, diverse bracket hasn’t been demonstrated. It’s the fate of any character that is used for counterpicking.

 

[Frihetsanka]

A characters spot on the tier list reflects their results/place in the Smash 4 metagame. It's understandable why Dabuz placed Bowser low, he hasn't had a whole lot of results as of late.

This is a very interesting topic, one that I would be interested in discussing. It is, however, listed as a Red topic. Though at this point, perhaps some leeway for discussing some of the Red topics (like tier list meta discussions) should be allowed, given how close Smash Switch is and how inactive this thread has become. I'd be happy to post a more detailed discussion of the meaning of tier list if a moderator approves it. If not, then so be it, I'll respect their decision either way (I wouldn't mind discussing it in some other thread though).

For now, I'll just post this very short counter-note: Someone with perfect knowledge of the game could live in a cottage in the forest with no access to the Internet and, by playing the game, figure out where each character would fit in a tier list. This shows that results are merely a tool, not the actual basis of tier placements. Both ZeRo and ESAM have stated that they don't primarily care about results when making tier lists, and neither should we. Results are a useful tool, but they don't actually decide a character's tier list position (imagine if both Zinoto and MVD would quit the game, would Diddy suddenly drop out of top 5?). Should Lucario drop 5-10 spots because Tsu retired?

Here’s the problem with evaluating Bowser:
His highest placings come from one player.

A problem with evaluating a character based on mostly counter-pick use is that you'll just get to see the character in favorable situations to that character. You won't see Bowser vs Rosalina or Zero Suit Samus or Sonic, for instance, because why would Nairo pick him versus those character? This applies to other players as well: Cosmos is a better indication for the strength and weaknesses of Corrin than MkLeo or komorikiri.

Bowser, as a character, has many significant flaws, and many bad MUs. It is true that he has some great strengths and can be scary to fight against, but let's be real: Most characters in this game have some scary stuff. Even Ganondorf, one of the worst characters in the game, could kill you by landing a few moves. Little Mac is not considered a good character, but he can still be pretty scary.

 

[The_Bookworm]

For now, I'll just post this very short counter-note: Someone with perfect knowledge of the game could live in a cottage in the forest with no access to the Internet and, by playing the game, figure out where each character would fit in a tier list. This shows that results are merely a tool, not the actual basis of tier placements. Both ZeRo and ESAM have stated that they don't primarily care about results when making tier lists, and neither should we. Results are a useful tool, but they don't actually decide a character's tier list position (imagine if both Zinoto and MVD would quit the game, would Diddy suddenly drop out of top 5?). Should Lucario drop 5-10 spots because Tsu retired?

So with that logic, ZeRo saying that Bowser/DK is top 20 is accurate? Results isn't everything in a tier list, and hasn't been ever since the beginning, but it provides an accurate and unbiased way of measuring how a character measures in the metagame, alongside representation, matchups, and the metagame's current state.

Without caring about results, characters would be placed entirely of player opinion, and the characters would be placed in erratic places in the tier list. It is like saying that character "xxx" is a character of lots of potential and should be placed higher, but it's results are not a reflection of this at all and is like this overtime, but is ranked much higher anyways despite other characters faring better in the metagame.

Btw, if Lucario does drop by 5 places, then it wouldn't be too much of a surprise tbh. Other than Tsu-'s retirement, there is the combination of him getting most of Lucario's top results alone, his lack of results in 2018 in comparison to 2017, and other characters below him (mainly Falcon and Peach) getting a better boost in results and in the metagame. Don't worry though: he will always be a high tiered character. He has already proven that much, and his strengths reflect it.

 

[Frihetsanka]

So with that logic, ZeRo saying that Bowser/DK is top 20 is accurate?

ZeRo does not have perfect knowledge of the game. I think he's wrong to place Bowser and DK that highly. Anyway, since we do not have perfect knowledge of the game, we have to find ways to support our arguments of why a character should be placed in a certain position. The argument should not be "Player X does well with Y, so therefore Y should be higher on the list", however: Results could be use as data to back why a character belongs in a certain spot, but the actual placement should not be based on results but rather how good the character actually is. Imagine if, say, Cosmos, Ryuga, and Frozen all stopped playing the game for some reason, should Corrin drop to sub top 20 then? Of course not.

Btw, if Lucario does drop by 5 places, then it wouldn't be too much of a surprise tbh. Other than Tsu-'s retirement, there is the combination of him getting most of Lucario's top results alone, his lack of results in 2018 in comparison to 2017, and other characters below him (mainly Falcon and Peach) getting a better boost in results and in the metagame.

Tying a character's placement in a tier list to one player seems problematic. If, say, Fatality were to retire, should Captain Falcon drop several spots? If ESAM and Captain L retired, should Pikachu drop several spots? No, because the character remains exactly the same. If we were going by recent results, then Donkey Kong should be something like #21 while Bowser should be something like #38. If we're going by recent results, Ness is clearly better than Lucas, yet many seem to argue that Lucas is actually better. I think that it is reasonable to use results to some extent, but many people (in this thread as well as on Reddit) seem to overdo it. At least I haven't seen anyone argue that Diddy Kong shouldn't be top 5 (yet).

I have a question to those who think that Donkey Kong and/or Bowser should be top 20: Which relevant MUs do you think they lose, and do you think they win against any top 20 character (which ones)?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Results shouldn't be the only thing that matters of course but they should back up what your saying more often than they don't. I can't keep saying D3 is a high tier character because his theory is great and everyone else has it wrong (it's obviously not great but for the sake of example pretend it is). And whenever a tournament rolls around and his best players attend they struggle to do anything notable. At the same time I can't look at the one time Zaki got 17th at Smash n Splash 4 and use that one example as proof that D3 is high tier after all. It's should always be a good mix of the two when being used. With Tsu retiring I do expect Lucario to decay slightly yes but he shouldn't drop far from where is at now because Tsu consistently proved Lucario is as good as his tiering and theory indicated same goes to any character that loses their largest source of results of that player proved the character was as good(or bad) as thought with consistent data to back it up then they shouldn't fall far once that player stops playing.